What's for Breakfast? Beyond Distinctions....

[Shinshou]

I admit there's something I don't comprehend about going "beyond distinctions, likes and dislikes...," and that is: in that state, how does one get along in the world? In a state beyond distinctions, why not eat dog poop for breakfast? I'm aware the questions seems silly (or somewhat disrespectful I suppose), but I have plenty of dog poop in my back yard, it's cheap, and if I don't distinguish between either pancakes or poop, then why choose one or the other? I've been told, "sit, attain that state, and see which you choose" (which of course is the pancakes). But if one is truly "beyond distinctions," why wear your seatbelt, eat real food, find a job you like, or leave an abusive relationship? Why practice the piano if wrong notes aren't "distinct" from right ones?


Sat today

[Tai Shi]

Daniel I hope there are all paths in Buddhism, and each is based in a kind of meditation or chant. Our Zendo offers space, non-space, non-duality as does Buddhism, and as we sit we are as we become, and I'm sure our Priests in Training could explain better than me. I find when I sit, and I just sit, I approach. So this is not "dog poop," but something more to my liking, or non-liking.

Tai Shi
std
Gassho

[Kokuu]

Hi Daniel

This is something that the Third Patriarch, Seng'can, is believed to have written in his text Verses on Faith Mind or Xin Xin Ming (said believed as it may well have been written by someone else):

"The way is easy for those that have no preferences"

Of course, this is ridiculous at face value and who would eat dog poop rather than pancakes? At one level it is true that essentially dog poop and pancakes are made of the same ingredients - carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen mostly - and the dog poop may have at one point resembled pancakes or at least some kind of food. However, a human being, or even a dog, who doesn't act with discernment and preferences is not going to get very far. We need to know what is food and what is poison, what is right and what is wrong, what to do and say in certain situations.

And yet, narrower distinctions and likes and dislikes may be worth putting down. As Buddha's original sangha went around collecting alms food they showed no preference and were grateful for whatever they were given. Did they hope some days for certain foods? I cannot imagine they wouldn't as they were all human beings with their own tastes. However, being grateful for whatever they were given and appreciating the generosity of the householders and nourishment of the food, like and dislike can be put down.

On a personal level, I have a chronic illness. If each day I wake up with an incredible aversion to my illness, this is going to make life full of suffering. Essentially I have a choice to accept how things are or to keep wishing they were different, with all of the emotions that will bring up. Accepting doesn't mean I have to like the situation or not work to change it but accepting how things are is a much better place to start the day than fighting reality.

The Buddha said that when we encounter a situation we experience it with one of three feeling tones (vedana): like, dislike or a neutral feeling. Suffering comes from encountering things we dislike and being separated from things we like. The more we can go beyond picking and choosing what to like, the less suffering we will have. This is the basis of developing equanimity.

Of course, this is not possible at all time and in all circumstances, but the more we can move towards it, the easier our life and the path will be.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/LAH-

[Kyonin]

Hi Daniel,

You just have reached one of the oldest questions in our practice. Why should I even take care of myself if there's no one to take care of in the first place?

I am no expert and please you can ignore my thoughts on this but the way I see it is this:

We study the dharma that teaches us that everything is not separated and that everything is Whole. We try to wrap around this which is a pretty alien idea for the individual mind. The Buddha found out that a fly, poop, a table, you and I are the same thing. The dividing mind has a hard time understanding this because we relate with things thanks to developing a separation between the self and temperature. I am not heat, therefore this heat is killing me.

However I think we are part of a bigger thing, even larger that we can imagine. Think about the biggest problem you have right now. Think about the latest terrorist attack. Now picture planet earth floating in space. Your problem, me, the terrorists or the attack... they all can't be seen from space. All there is is a pale blue sphere floating. We are so small that our biggest fears and concerns are nothing and at the same time they are part of a bigger thing called Earth.

Now picture your own gut. Yes, your intestines. There is a HUGE universe in there. With about 10 trillion beings going about their business, unaware that they are you! They do what they do: they born, work, take care of themselves, they reproduce and then they die. Joe Bacteria can't imagine he is giving you life by taking care of himself.

Bacteria, cells and other micro organisms don't eat what they shouldn't because they are part of life. As living beings our Prime Directive is to take care of life because we are part of Life.

So why not have dog poop Cheerios for breakfast? Why should you sit zazen, exercise, work or rest? Because you would be irresponsible with your bodymind, your only one vehicle to go about life, practice Zen and be helpful to other sentient beings. By not taking care of Life, you'd be acting against Life. And you are Life itself.

By taking care of yourself you are taking care of the ones close to you.

By lowering our defenses and the concept of self, we can start to understand Gratitude and Compassion, that everything in existence is tied up by threads so fine that escape sight. You are one with your family, with us, with your country. And at the same time, we are all part of something bigger.

But then again, I might be wrong :)

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Jundo]

Hi Daniel,

If there is one lesson I have been trying to get across here for 10 years, it is this:

One can drop all likes and dislikes AND NOT drop all likes and dislikes at once.

One can move forward with goals and things to do AND (as if on another channel, Channel Not-Two) taste the dropping of all goals and of all need to do at once, as one.

It is like seeing life one way out of one eye, another way out of the other eye ... both eyes when open together seeing in clarity. Each way of seeing informs and perfumes the other way of seeing, and are just two ways of experiencing life from different perspectives (two ways of seeing and being so intimately whole that we call them "Not-Two").

So, for example, we do not eat dog poop. [scared] That is filthy, disgusting. Yet (on Channel Not-Two) we see all life's poop as itself a sacred jewel, shining right beyond and through all small human judgments of "clean vs. dirty."

One can know a Stillness that is present both when sitting still AND when hustling and bustling.



And how does one learn this?


In sitting Shikantaza Zazen, putting aside all judgments, divisions of "this vs. that", dropping any other place to go or thing to do besides sit on the Cushion.

Then, getting up from the cushion, back to the world of this and that, good and bad, places to go and things to do ...

... one may also know that simultaneous taste of "no judgment, all equally sacred ... no need to do" ...

... even as we make decisions, avoid harm, run, plan and made goals, get things done.

Understand? Do not see life only out of one eye.

Gassho, Jundo


SatTodayLAH

[Shinshou]

Interesting...

[Mp]

Hi Daniel,

If there is one lesson I have been trying to get across here for 10 years, it is this:

One can drop all likes and dislikes AND NOT drop all likes and dislikes at once.

One can move forward with goals and things to do AND (as if on another channel, Channel Not-Two) taste the dropping of all goals and of all need to do at once, as one.

It is like seeing life one way out of one eye, another way out of the other eye ... both eyes when open together seeing in clarity. Each way of seeing informs and perfumes the other way of seeing, and are just two ways of experiencing life from different perspectives (two ways of seeing and being so intimately whole that we call them "Not-Two").

So, for example, we do not eat dog poop. [scared] That is filthy, disgusting. Yet (on Channel Not-Two) we see all life's poop as itself a sacred jewel, shining right beyond and through all small human judgments of "clean vs. dirty."

One can know a Stillness that is present both when sitting still AND when hustling and bustling.



And how does one learn this?


In sitting Shikantaza Zazen, putting aside all judgments, divisions of "this vs. that", dropping any other place to go or thing to do besides sit on the Cushion.

Then, getting up from the cushion, back to the world of this and that, good and bad, places to go and things to do ...

... one may also know that simultaneous taste of "no judgment, all equally sacred ... no need to do" ...

... even as we make decisions, avoid harm, run, plan and made goals, get things done.

Understand? Do not see life only out of one eye.

Gassho, Jundo


SatTodayLAH

Thank you for these wise words Jundo. I cannot really add much that has not already been said Daniel. Peace/stillness comes when we drop this division of good/bad, right/wrong. Yes there are differences in this world, but in our hearts and minds there are none. =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Taiyo]

I always found it helpful to think about the first verse on Xin Xin Ming this way:

"The way is easy for those that have no attachment to preferences".

We will always have preferences in our daily life but this Practice lets us realize life is just perfectly the way it is, not the way we would prefer it to be, and therefore we can stop wasting our life running after what we like and running away from what we dislike.

Gassho,
Taiyo.

SatToday/LAH

[Jishin]

I admit there's something I don't comprehend about going "beyond distinctions, likes and dislikes...," and that is: in that state, how does one get along in the world? In a state beyond distinctions, why not eat dog poop for breakfast? I'm aware the questions seems silly (or somewhat disrespectful I suppose), but I have plenty of dog poop in my back yard, it's cheap, and if I don't distinguish between either pancakes or poop, then why choose one or the other? I've been told, "sit, attain that state, and see which you choose" (which of course is the pancakes). But if one is truly "beyond distinctions," why wear your seatbelt, eat real food, find a job you like, or leave an abusive relationship? Why practice the piano if wrong notes aren't "distinct" from right ones?


Sat today

Hi Daniel,

Zen questions are very easy to answer. Just do that which benefits the greater good without distinctions of good or bad.

Are you of better service to others by eating dog shit or nutritious food? There is no distinction in this question at all. It is a matching question. Humans need nutritional food to help sentient beings and not shitty food although shitty food is very nutritional to some sentient beings. It is a factual question with a factual response. Distinctions are made with opinion questions that lead to opinion answers. The truth lies where likes and dislikes are dropped.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Eishuu]

This is an interesting question. What comes up for me is that it is an issue of compassion vs self-harm. I think there is a difference between eating things we are not keen on and dealing with craving/aversion in that context and eating dog poo - which will make us ill. Our body rejects it even before we attempt to eat it because of the smell - I think there is an involuntary repulsion as well as a conscious one, and for good reason. Care of our body and self-compassion is surely an important part of practice?

(Just as an aside, I've been on an extremely restricted diet the past 18 months to lose weight, and I am unable to cook so I eat what is served to me. I've had a lot of salad and steamed cabbage, which initially I had resistance too but now I really enjoy. It has helped to often sit Zazen before mealtimes and be as present as I can with eating - appreciating the beauty of a cabbage leaf for example and being grateful for nourishment. I think this is miles off from eating dog poo though.)

Just my 2 cents.

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today/LAH

[Jakuden]

Hi Daniel,
Boy you certainly went right to the heart of Zen with your first question [emoji120]
It has all been said in previous answers. In Zazen, we practice the dance between the absolute, just sitting, and the relative, when thoughts come and take us away. The object is not to try to go out and be in the absolute all the time... but to live our relative, subjective lives with complete awareness that the relative and the absolute are not two. So yes [emoji90] and 🥞 are the same in one aspect (the absolute) but certainly not in another aspect [emoji13](the relative).
With that said, I prefer to go drink coffee rather than swamp water now, keeping in mind that other people in the world don't always even have access to swamp water.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

Dang autocorrect takes away my LAH!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Hey Guys,

I would not overthink this.

I would say that we do not eat "poo" or poison because they are harmful to our health.

Nonetheless, in a Buddha's eye, "poo" and poison, flowers and stars are all the same ... each a jewel in its way. In dropping all subjective human judgments, each shines as it is.

In Shikantaza, one sits and learns to live encountering life from both such angles. One learns to experience life both ways at once, as one.

End of story.

There are many other ways of encountering life on these "not-two" fronts: We cry at the death of a loved one yet, simultaneousluy learn the realm where no coming or going, loss or gain, birth or death are possible. We try to stop the war and make peace in this world, yet also see a Peace that holds all life's broken pieces, both peace and war. Etc. Etc.

Not rocket science.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jishin]

4242

Well, I guess to each their own.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Shinshou]

Perhaps not rocket science, but to a person feeling that they should stick out an unfulfilling job or relationship because to not do so means they are having "preferences," it matters.

I like the idea of looking with two eyes, one of wholeness and one of separateness...neither of them gives you a complete picture. Both are accurate, yet not comprehensive. That's helpful. After reading these responses, I was reminded of a writing by Huang Po that I had to go look up: "Ordinary people look to their surroundings, while followers of the Way look to the mind, but the true Dharms is to forget them both."

Thanks for all the input, I've been wondering about this question (and will probably continue to do so) since reading my first Zen book years ago.

[Mp]

Perhaps not rocket science, but to a person feeling that they should stick out an unfulfilling job or relationship because to not do so means they are having "preferences," it matters.

I agree Daniel it does matter, yet at the same time it doesn't as I am accepting those conditions/situation just as they are at that time. And yet at the same time I am trying to find that better job, that more loving and fullfilling rekationship.

Just because we accept things or conditions in our life just as they are, doesn't mean there is not room for improvement or change. =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Jundo]

Perhaps not rocket science, but to a person feeling that they should stick out an unfulfilling job or relationship because to not do so means they are having "preferences," it matters.

I like the idea of looking with two eyes, one of wholeness and one of separateness...neither of them gives you a complete picture. Both are accurate, yet not comprehensive. That's helpful. After reading these responses, I was reminded of a writing by Huang Po that I had to go look up: "Ordinary people look to their surroundings, while followers of the Way look to the mind, but the true Dharms is to forget them both."

Thanks for all the input, I've been wondering about this question (and will probably continue to do so) since reading my first Zen book years ago.

Hi Daniel,

Shingen summed it up nicely:


... I am accepting those conditions/situation just as they are at that time. And yet at the same time I am trying to find that better job, that more loving and fullfilling relationship.

Just because we accept things or conditions in our life just as they are, doesn't mean there is not room for improvement or change. =)


Here is something I sometimes add when people ask if their Zazen Practice will help them know the "right" decision to make ... to stay in the relationship or leave, stay in the difficult job or change ...


Someone once asked me if Zazen would tell them whether to stay or leave a job or what job to take. I said that all it would tell them was that, if staying, just be there ... and if leaving, just be there. If it turns out the wrong choice was made, well, just start again from there.

Perhaps in the quiet and stillness of sitting, there is a little space to listen to what your heart truly feels and wants, which can help one in the decision. But there are rarely if ever any "totally right" answers in these situations, and good and bad no matter which way one goes. Just try to do what seems best, moment by moment.

When coming to a crossroads, TAKE IT! Go right or left (unless staying put If staying put, that is just a choice on the road too. ). Then, just be there and move on. If one ended up taking a bumpy road instead of the smooth road intended ... just be there and move on. At the next crossroads, which is ever right underfoot ... repeat above process! One may discover that one made the right choice or the wrong, got to one's objective or got lost. You will probably find you end up where never expected (most times, it is not just what one expected). However, it is always the RIGHT CHOICE ... for it is the RIGHT WHERE ONE NOW IS CHOICE. Move on from here.

After that, I often provide some more practical advice about things like "making a list of pros and cons" and "sleeping on it" .... but that is not really "Zen" advice, as much as "50ish year old guy, been there" advice. :)

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

PS - Daniel, although the mountains are also our face (dog poop too! :)), may I ask you to post a human face as your Avatar picture? It is one of the precious ways we have to keep this place a little more human, look each other in the eyes a bit. Thank you if you would. That is my preference-non-preference. :p

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?8531-CONFIDENTIALITY-TIPS-for-Sangha-Members

Also, although we don't require it for brand new members for the first months, would you consider to put "SatToday" by your signature before posting? It helps keep us focused on Sitting over Chatting. Thanks if you would.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12995-Signing-SatToday-Please-Sat-before-Forum-Chat

[Hoseki]

Hi Daniel,

I'm pretty much going to repeat Jundo and Shingen's responses but in a different vocabulary. I think we can look at this aspect of our practice has how to think about what we can change and what we can't. The past is done and it can't be changed. Trying to change the past isn't possible yet we often relive the past by ruminating about events, conversations etc. Often torturing ourselves by obsessing over hurtful events. Kind of like having a sore neck and checking to see if it still hurts every few minutes.
Reflecting on the past is great as it can help us avoid repeating mistakes but often we relive it.

There is nothing we can do about the past and what we find ourselves dealing with at every moment is the present but the present as we experience it is like the past. It just is. That is to say if my neck is sore there its the result of some events in the past. I can't un-sore my neck it just is sore. But what I can do reflect on the past and how I hurt it (slept in a weird position), how I continue to hurt it (checking to see if its OK) and then think about how I can best take care of it. So I plan for the future and then act upon my new plan. Which is probably just to be careful and try not to aggravate my neck.

What we often do when we have a bad neck is to resist it. We don't want to feel the pain, we want to do something that we can't because it would hurt to much, or we may have to take actions that are boring.

Long story short, we accept what can't be changed and when things can be changed we try to change them for the better. Or at least that's my thoughts on the matter. Incidentally, I currently have a sore neck :)

Gassho
Sattoday
Hoseki

[Shinshou]

Wonderful, Shingen!