Pine Needle?

[Kyosei]

Hey friends

When sewing the "pine needle" symbol in my Rakusu, it seemed to me more like it was a kind of "unfinished rectangle" in perspective, with 3 or even 4-dimensions, than a "pine needle" or even a "mountain", etc.

Don't know if the "diagram" of the Pine Needle was modified to be precise like the designing we can see nowadays, or if it should be stitched free-form, just resembling the "official" picture. I'm referring to the "official" pine needle design.

I've seem some explanations here and there, but none seems to explain where did it really came from and when it became a symbol of distinction between Zen schools. Do we have this kind of information (or some pointers to where should one start to look after it, I mean historic documents?)

Gassho

Marcos

#SatToday

[Zenmei]

Here is a treeleaf thread from a ways back:

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6571-Question-for-Taigu-why-broken-nail

I like the explanation from John Tarrant Roshi that Jundo posted in that thread:


On the back of the rakusu are crossed casuarina needles from
an ancient Buddhist tree signifying that this is a mountain path,
signifying that it takes you deep into the journey into the true self.
As Rilke said, so that we walk into the silence, for hours meeting
no-one. Also the needles are the green shoots of the Way, the manner
in which the Way will spring up like dandelions in a pavement in the
city. Somewhere, no matter what state you are in, you can always find
a little green trace of it. There are two needles crossed with each
other. Every time you are caught in an opposite, at bottom there is
always some unity there, if you can find it. Theres always some way
to hold the two together. And that is the enlightened task. So that
we can find the true action.

The original file of that talk seems to be lost to impermanence.
I haven't been able to find much of anything online about the history of these stitches, I'd love to know more, too.

Gasso, dudley
#sat

[Mp]

Here is a treeleaf thread from a ways back:

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6571-Question-for-Taigu-why-broken-nail

I like the explanation from John Tarrant Roshi that Jundo posted in that thread:



The original file of that talk seems to be lost to impermanence.
I haven't been able to find much of anything online about the history of these stitches, I'd love to know more, too.

Gasso, dudley
#sat

Awesome, thanks Dudley ... that was what I was going to post too. Great minds think alike. :encouragement:

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Kyosei]

Thank you Dudley and Shingen, but I've read this text before... my first question is if this symbol has a default pattern... with precise measurements and so forth... if so...doesn't it seem like a rectangle viewed through various dimensions? (I'd say 3 or 4)... look at the parallel diagonal lines on the bottom of the image for example...

I know this symbol is referred traditionally as a broken pine needle, but couldn't it be really a symbol inside a symbol?

The second question is if there are any possibilities of tracing the historical and "cannonical" background of this image as a symbol of Soto Shu...as a Triangle distinguishes Rinzai and a "Star" symbolizes Obaku... when it was stablished and why...does it came from China? Or are these symbols meanings lost and having to be reinterpreted at will by teachers nowadays?

Thank you for your answers, dear friends.

Gassho

Marcos

#SatToday

[Mp]

Thank you Dudley and Shingen, but I've read this text before... my first question is if this symbol has a default pattern... with precise measurements and so forth... if so...doesn't it seem like a rectangle viewed through various dimensions? (I'd say 3 or 4)... look at the parallel diagonal lines on the bottom of the image for example...

I know this symbol is referred traditionally as a broken pine needle, but couldn't it be really a symbol inside a symbol?

The second question is if there are any possibilities of tracing the historical and "cannonical" background of this image as a symbol of Soto Shu...as a Triangle distinguishes Rinzai and a "Star" symbolizes Obaku... when it was stablished and why...does it came from China? Or are these symbols meanings lost and having to be reinterpreted at will by teachers nowadays?

Thank you for your answers, dear friends.

Gassho

Marcos

#SatToday


Hey Marcos,

To be honest with you, that is some deep thoughts on the Pine Needle and not sure I have the answer for you. Maybe Jundo has a resource that might help?

Sorry about that ... I am more of a simple kind of guy when it comes to this practice. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jishin]

Hi Marcos,

If you ask me a Pine Needle sounds like a Pine Needle.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Kotei]

Hi Marcos,

for me, it looks like a triangle, as does the Rinzai version.
And when it comes to a triangle, I immediately think of "Buddha, Dharma, Sangha" in this context. As I do, when touching it with my lips/head when wearing.

Personally, I find a universal concept of eastern (garden-)design in acute angled triangles, like this one. A concept of balance, instead of symmetry, like in the western designs.
Maybe the fact, that it's a broken needle also points to breaking with earlier traditions and founding a new one?

Don't know. Just thoughts.

Gassho,
Kotei just sat.




Thank you Dudley and Shingen, but I've read this text before... my first question is if this symbol has a default pattern... with precise measurements and so forth... if so...doesn't it seem like a rectangle viewed through various dimensions? (I'd say 3 or 4)... look at the parallel diagonal lines on the bottom of the image for example...

I know this symbol is referred traditionally as a broken pine needle, but couldn't it be really a symbol inside a symbol?

The second question is if there are any possibilities of tracing the historical and "cannonical" background of this image as a symbol of Soto Shu...as a Triangle distinguishes Rinzai and a "Star" symbolizes Obaku... when it was stablished and why...does it came from China? Or are these symbols meanings lost and having to be reinterpreted at will by teachers nowadays?

Thank you for your answers, dear friends.

Gassho

Marcos

#SatToday

[Kyosei]

Hi Marcos,

for me, it looks like a triangle, as does the Rinzai version.
And when it comes to a triangle, I immediately think of "Buddha, Dharma, Sangha" in this context. As I do, when touching it with my lips/head when wearing.

Personally, I find a universal concept of eastern (garden-)design in acute angled triangles, like this one. A concept of balance, instead of symmetry, like in the western designs.
Maybe the fact, that it's a broken needle also points to breaking with earlier traditions and founding a new one?

Don't know. Just thoughts.

Gassho,
Kotei just sat.

Very interesting thoughts, Kotei, thank you.

Gassho

Marcos

#SatToday

[Jundo]

Hi Guys,

I also recently came across this nice comment on the Pine Needles by Shunryu Suzuki Roshi ... he seems to just take it as it is a bit ...


Student A: What is the meaning of the design on the maneki?

Suzuki-roshi: Hmm? Yeah?

Student A: Yeah. The design?

Suzuki-roshi: Oh, that is-I don't think that it-that is just to keep, you know, keep two-two parts tied together. It is pine, you know, pine leaf. That is, you know-in Japan, pine symbolize-pine is-pine tree is-is supposed to be-first of all, it is always green, and pine tree lives long long time, and it doesn't change its color all year round. So we have some special feeling about pine, and that pine leaf we use in various way, you know, that design. When you make some-some furoshiki,[a square piece of cloth in Japan used for wrapping items such as gifts] you know, we put pine leaves [on them], you know. I think that is why maybe better to ask Yoshida-roshi [laughs]. He may have some reason-she may have some reason, but I think that is more very common, you know, for Japanese in Japanese culture to use pine leaves. You notice, you know, many-we have many pine-tree design or pine-leaves design. We like bamboo also. Bamboo.

http://suzukiroshi.sfzc.org/archives/index.cgi/710620V.html?seemore=y#_ftn12

I am not sure if Yoshida Roshi had a better answer. :)

A Teacher who I don't know, Judith Putman, adds this comment ...


On the neck piece is a continuous line of stitching representing a Casuarina needle. In the West we call it “pine needle.” It represents the green shoots of the Way. Each needle is a different length all coming from the same source.

I found this drawing of casuarina needles ... and it seems not so far off ...

http://trees.stanford.edu/images/silhou_gal/silhou_gal-Thumbnails/13.jpg


Gassho, J

SatToday

http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/carr/images/cas_equ_mid_8119.jpg

[Zenmei]

I really like Suzuki-roshi's answer. "It's green and we put it on wrapping paper. Also bamboo."

Maybe sometimes a pine needle is just a pine needle.

Gassho, dudley
#sat

[Jundo]

My guess is that, sometime somewhere, some ancient graphic designer picked a mark ... perhaps with such meaning he or she felt in heart ... and the rest is history. The details are lost to the fog of time.

Some other marks that one may encounter at Soto Zen groups:

The crest for Eiheiji, at the right below, is a 'gentian' flower, and for Sojiji Head Temple at the left below is a pauloenia. (I do not know why those particular flowers, and am not much of a flower man. I heard once that there was some indirect connection to the crests of Samurai families of the past who may have been sponsors. All I can say is that every group in Japan has its own flower, the Imperial Family being the Chrysanthemum.).

The two crests combined, as here, is the current emblem of the Soto school.

http://www.culturalnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/20100501-Daigaku-Rumme-Roshi.jpg
http://lib.shopping.srv.yimg.jp/lib/lives/2008120400001.jpg

Every religious group, university, club, company or family has a crest in Japan, often depicting a particular flower. Here are some :

http://www.hari-kamon.com/plant/Page/RINDOU/index.html

Eihei-ji and Soji-ji are the two head temples of Soto Shu in Japan ... for reasons of history In a nutshell:

Eiheiji is the monastery of Dogen. Soji-ji is the monastery of Keizan, the 3rd Patriarch in Japan, with many more local temples under its wings than Eiheiji. They wrestled ... sometimes quite spitefully, although never violently ... for about 500 years over which would be the top dog in Japan. In the late 19th century, they finally reached a compromise, and basically take turns, e.g., appointing the titular head of Soto-shu from each one in turn. Thus, both the crests of the two temples are the "Official" mark of Soto-shu.

We do not typically add such marks, or a ring, to the simplicity of the Nyohoe Rakusu.

Gassho, J

PS - Every Buddhist group in Japan has their mark, and own styles of Kesa and Robes and such. Here is a supplier of "Hangesa", a type of robe often worn in Japan by lay parishioners (Soto Zen and many other schools of Buddhism) in place of a Rakusu. You can see, in the top left, the various sect marks that can be affixed.

http://www.nenjudo.co.jp/page/kesa.html

[Mp]

Thank you Jundo for the Suzuki Roshi explanation and also the explaination above, very nice. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk

[Shokai]

I found this about five or six years ago and dearly wish I had saved the reference

On the back, at the neck piece of a Soto shu rakusu are crossed casuarina needles from an ancient tree signifying that this is a mountain path that it takes you deep into the journey into the true self. As Rilke said, so that we walk into the silence, for hours meeting no-one. Also the needles are the green shoots of the Way, the manner in which the Way will spring up like dandelions in a pavement in the city. Somewhere, no matter where you find yourself, you can always find a little green trace of it. There are two needles crossed with each other. Every time you are caught in an opposite, at bottom there is always some unity there, if you can find it. There’s always some way to hold the two together. And that is the enlightened task. So that we can find the true action. the pine needle came from apark nearby
3875

[Mp]

I found this about five or six years ago and dearly wish I had saved the reference
the pine needle came from apark nearby
3875

Thank you Shokai. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Chiko]

I like the idea that the pine needle is broken. That's comforting to me, like celebrating imperfection.

Gassho,
Chiko
Sat today

[Tairin]

Oh, that is-I don't think that it-that is just to keep, you know, keep two-two parts tied together. It is pine, you know, pine leaf

I watched Taigu’s video on sewing the pine needle on the Rakusu and wondered what significance it had. This lead me to a search where (of course) this question has been asked before. I love Suzuki Roshi’s answer. Sometimes I think we spend a lot of time looking for deep meaning in everything. This struck me as a very practical answer. gassho2

Gassho
Warren
Sat today