Are our memories attachments?

[Kyosei]

Hi friends,

There's a well-known "koan" called "Is That So?" - which (to my understanding) deals with living (or flowing with) the moment:


"The Zen master Hakuin was praised by his neighbours as one living a pure life.

A beautiful Japanese girl whose parents owned a food store lived near him. Suddenly, without any warning, her parents discovered she was with child.

This made her parents angry. She would not confess who the man was, but after much harassment at last named Hakuin.

In great anger the parent went to the master. “Is that so?” was all he would say.

After the child was born it was brought to Hakuin. By this time he had lost his reputation, which did not trouble him, but he took very good care of the child. He obtained milk from his neighbours and everything else he needed.

A year later the girl-mother could stand it no longer. She told her parents the truth – the real father of the child was a young man who worked in the fishmarket.

The mother and father of the girl at once went to Hakuin to ask forgiveness, to apologize at length, and to get the child back.

Hakuin was willing. In yielding the child, all he said was: “Is that so?”"

Seems to me this monk was totally detached, having being fully realized.

Well, often I think: if one's willing to flow completely with the moment, totally freed of attachments, he has to drop his thoughts, he has to drop judgements, he has to drop his concepts, and in dropping judgements and thoughts, and concepts, he's dropping his references (memories), too.

So there came a thought: Are our memories attachments? Is everything we have as references for life just attachments?

I mean (going deep on these thoughts) - even our parents faces, the name of colours, the form of objects... food, the (established) meaning of words... basic references, etc.?

How can one full of memories realize the moment fully without recurring (at all) to his own references? What I'm meaning by "memories" is all of the references we acquired in our lifetime.

How can one say he is "totally detached from the things of this life" if he's still attached to these more-or-less "basic" concepts?

Is it possible to see things as "the first time" everytime?

Is it possible to live like that? like somebody who is "born" every and each moment?

What do you think?

[Tanjin]

I think it is important to see things as they are and to see things as they are.

Gassho,
Jimmy
Sattoday

[derek12261984]

Wow that's a heavy question that I don't think I can answer. I will however give you my opinion on one aspect of your question. I think our memory when used as a point of reference is crucial for living in the moment or being mindful of the moment. I feel that as long as we do not cling to certain memories then we are not truly attached. But as for points of reference, well I can tell you as a teacher that those are crucial the future learning. Let me give you an example: a 5 year old who has experienced more of the world in his or her early life will do better generally in the classroom then the sheltered child. This is because they can base their current learning on previous reference points. Current research has shown that people learn better when they can attach a new experience or concept to a previous memory. Anyway I might be getting off topic and away from your question so I will stop rambling.

Hopefully someone with far more knowledge than myself can completely answer your question.

Gassho
Derek
Sat2day

[Byrne]

Attachment to memories are attachments.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Jundo]

Hi Marcos,

First, on the story often told about Hakuin. I often joke that my reaction would be, in this modern age of science and scandals, "Is that so? But I want a bloodtest!". [monk] From what I know of the actual Hakuin, he could also grumble and rumble when the time came.


Well, often I think: if one's willing to flow completely with the moment, totally freed of attachments, he has to drop his thoughts, he has to drop judgements, he has to drop his concepts, and in dropping judgements and thoughts, and concepts, he's dropping his references (memories), too.

So there came a thought: Are our memories attachments? Is everything we have as references for life just attachments?

I mean (going deep on these thoughts) - even our parents faces, the name of colours, the form of objects... food, the (established) meaning of words... basic references, etc.?

Hmmm. All things in moderation. Any time the Buddha or any great old master would tell a story of their past, they would have a memory. Memories are not a problem. Human beings have memories (as well as imaginings of the possible futures), for otherwise we could not live and function as human beings. The only thing is not to be trapped and tangled in these memories, a prisoner of the past, rehashing and wallowing in the past. Let the past be the past, the future just the future, yet recall or plan for them too. There is a difference between embracing and honoring and allowing one's memories, and attachment and wallowing and clinging. (Same for the future: Plan, even worry a bit about reasonable fears and work for future goals ... but do not be a prisoner of the future or excess "what if's" or "someday I will get there" scenarios).

Same with our "judgments and concepts" ... there is a time to drop them, but one can also learn to have them while seeing through them, not being bound. We realize that we are not only our judgments and thoughts, and there is a realm beyond and right through all human thoughts and concepts. However, we simply could not live and function as people without many judgments and thoughts. So, all in balance ... hold them lightly, embrace but do not be tied up, live them and see thru them at once.

I see my wife and loved ones, Tsukuba mountain and the trees and stars, for the "first time" each time, never the same. Nonetheless, I recall fondly or respectfully memories of the past too. Recalling a memory is also "in this moment of recalling", is it not?

Some ugly memories I do not wish to forget, nor need I. I have written the following to some folks in the Sangha who have had truly ugly childhoods, including real abuse ...


I have counseled some victims of child abuse, for example, that ... yes ... from one perspective, we need to forgive and let the past go and understand that the person who did this was filled with greed, anger, violence. From another perspective, we also need to recognize that the scars are there. ... Even recognizing our own natural anger at the past is fine ... for it is natural to feel resentment (so long as we do not become its slave). But in any event, the most important thing is not to carry the anger, resentment, abuse etc. into future generations where it will effect our children and coming generations.

In our Practice, we learn to experience past events several ways at once (some seemingly contradictory, but such is no contradiction for Zen folks): we learn to see the past and allow the past, drop the past, see the scars, allow the scars, and drop the scars (at least, some of them). All at once.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?13677-Forgiving-those-who-hurt-someone-we-love&p=158216&viewfull=1#post158216

Alzheimer's disease takes away our memories, and likewise our ability to function independently.

I recall :p that I have often written about the mistaken notion that Zen is about simply "being in the present." Hmmmm.

---------------

Being mindful of 'mindful'


Some people believe that the point of Zen Practice is to learn to "always be in the moment", every moment ... just absorbed in one task, not thinking future or past or any other thing.

However, I do not know anybody ... Zen folks included ... who can or should be like that all the time.

I think that is not true, nor very realistic. It could even be deadly, if one were "so in the moment" that one did not recognize that the road ahead leads right over a cliff!

I believe that such "being in the moment" is a skill we develop in the Practice, one of many skills, that we can "pull out of the tool kit" when appropriate, and put back when not. We do not live like that every moment, and only should in the right moments. When drinking tea, just drink tea ... but then the coffee break is over, the boss is yelling, the clients demanding ... and 10,000 other things to do!

There are other times in life when it is perfectly appropriate to be lost in thoughts recalling the past, or planning for the future. There are times when we can be completely distracted and even overwhelmed. At those times "being in the moment" means being fully at one with however life is in that moment ... if it is momentarily chaotic, be "at one" with that.

When doing one thing ... drinking tea, working in the garden, sitting Zazen ... just do that one thing. Yes, that is true. But a moment of "multi-tasking" is also "one thing" too ... called "multi-tasking". So, when multi-tasking, just multi-task ... just do that one thing whole heartedly in that moment too.

Folks encounter lots of Zen teachings like "when you eat, just eat. When you sleep just sleep..." But those Zenny words can sound rather idealistic if they imply that we must be "mindful" or in "Zen Mind" 24/7. (Don't misunderstand me, I think it a good power ... and it is just the "24/7" I am protesting). My view is more balanced I believe, namely, that "when mindful of one thing, just be mindful of one thing ... when distracted, overwrought and multi-tasking, just be distracted, overwrought and multi-task". There is a time for everything, and we cannot be "mindful" each minute. All of it is life. (If one ever visits a large Zen monastery, you might be surprised at how hectic things can get ... guests visiting, phones to answer, ceremonies to arrange, robes to clean, bills to pay and food orders to make ... it is quite like any business office in the administrative office of the monastery).

However, one of the great fruits of our Zen Practice is that, even when we are distracted, overwrought and multi-tasking, feeling completely rushed and off balance ... and even when "Zen Mind" feels very far away ... we can still know it is 'there' even if we do not feel it at that moment [the blue sky always behind the clouds even on cloudy days]. So I say, when feeling completely "rushed and off balance", just be "rushed and off balance" in that moment ... it too is a temporary state of mind.

If you try to be "Zen" 24/7 you are trying to be a "Zen robot" ... not a true human being who, for better or worse, will often be in human situations reacting in a human way. We do get better and better, through this practice, at finding our center and stillness amid the storm ... but so long as we are living as humans, we will always be human.

So, in other words, have a balanced and realistic view of life ... even a balanced view of sometimes or frequently being unbalanced, overworked, distracted and such.

Some moments, be "mindful" and "in the moment" ... other moments just be "at one with the moment" even if a moment when you are not "in the moment" that moment ... In other words, JUST DO THAT! IT TOO IS A PERFECT ACT IN THAT MOMENT!! :D

More here ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7910-Being-mindful-of-mindful

Gassho, J

SatToday (I seem to recall)

PS - Last night I had a dream about being eaten by a tiger during my upcoming trip to India. Although there are tigers in India, it is unlikely I will be eaten by one. No need to hold on to that or wallow in the fear. Still, the momentary fear was real. Also, tigers aside, there are some real dangers in India. No need to be a fool. So, next week, I get more vaccinations and I will try not to wander around alone at night.

[Jundo]

A lovely film just about the great Soto Zen Teacher Shohaku Okumura, his son, memories of the past and plans for the future ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14684-An-Amazing-Little-Film-Zen-Fathers-and-Sons

Maybe if Hakuin had ended up actually raising that kid, they woulda had "issues" later in life. :p

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Sekishi]

So there came a thought: Are our memories attachments? Is everything we have as references for life just attachments?

Hi Marcos,

I find that over time, practice has spun this question around a little. For me the questions are something more like: "Am I these memories?" "Am I these thoughts?"

I find the answer to be "sometimes". [happy]

In sitting, sometimes the memories and thoughts and worries quiet down a little, and there is simply an openness without the forms of specific thoughts and memories. "Am I this?"

I guess the answer is still "sometimes." :cool:

Gassho,
Sekishi

#sattoday

[Jishin]

Hi Marcos,

Thinking about "Are our memories attachments?" does not pay the bills.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Kyosei]

Thank you for your answer, Jundo, I went all through the topic "Being mindful of 'mindful'", too, great questions (and answers). Thank you.

Thank you all for your answers.

Gassho.

[Meian]

My attachment to my memories is my attachment to the past, which is my attachment to a life that I wanted but is no more. I realized this some time ago, that i was holding onto remnants of something that no longer existed, no matter how much i wanted it to be, it was gone, and my memories could not bring it back.

So i carry the essence of the people and the life i miss within me, but have learned to let go of many memories except very good ones, and except where useful.

In my family, memories can keep us as ghosts in the past - for us it is best to move forward, honor the good, but keep growing. But that is our lesson, not right for everyone.

Gassho
Kim
Sat today

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

My attachment to my memories is my attachment to the past, which is my attachment to a life that I wanted but is no more. I realized this some time ago, that i was holding onto remnants of something that no longer existed, no matter how much i wanted it to be, it was gone, and my memories could not bring it back.

So i carry the essence of the people and the life i miss within me, but have learned to let go of many memories except very good ones, and except where useful.

In my family, memories can keep us as ghosts in the past - for us it is best to move forward, honor the good, but keep growing. But that is our lesson, not right for everyone.

Gassho
Kim
Sat today

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

I just mentioned this (now, not at the time) fond memory in our Koan reflections ...


[I recall as my teachers] My Uncle Lou and my Uncle Ralph who could sit at the Thanksgiving table and dig up old resentments from thirty years before ... wonderful teachers in being prisoners of memory and letting go. I miss them. gassho1

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14678-BOOK-OF-EQUANIMITY-Case-64&p=183989&viewfull=1#post183989

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Daitetsu]

Hi Marcos,

Imagine a coin.
One side is "you, the small self" with your memories, thoughts, concerns, etc.
The other side is the timeless.
Both sides belong together and cannot be separated.
Memories are not bad as long as they don't make yourself a prisoner.

Imagine one day you'd wake up without clothes, passport, documents, etc. in the middle of the desert with a complete amnesia.
If someone asked you who you are, what would you answer?

Gassho,

Daitetsu


#sat2day


PS: There is an important difference between "non-attachment" and "detachment"!

[Daitetsu]

Hi Jundo,


Last night I had a dream about being eaten by a tiger during my upcoming trip to India. Although there are tigers in India, it is unlikely I will be eaten by one.

I think there is a much higher risk in Indian traffic. Must be crazy from what I have heard from a friend (and seen in his pictures).

Gassho,

Daitetsu

#sat2day

[Kyosei]

Hi Daitetsu


Hi Marcos,

Imagine a coin.
One side is "you, the small self" with your memories, thoughts, concerns, etc.
The other side is the timeless.
Both sides belong together and cannot be separated.
Memories are not bad as long as they don't make yourself a prisoner.

Yes, I guess I'm beginning to understand this. My intention here was to better understand that kind of "realization" which preaches that someone fully "enlightened" (I mean, if it was possible, fulltime, 24 hours/7 days) could survive being totally detached from even the most basic concepts.


Imagine one day you'd wake up without clothes, passport, documents, etc. in the middle of the desert with a complete amnesia.
If someone asked you who you are, what would you answer?

Seems like a good Koan. I'd probably answer what Bodhidharma answered to Emperor Wu: "- I don't know.", at now, I guess this would be the only possible answer.


PS: There is an important difference between "non-attachment" and "detachment"!

Thank you.

(Sorry for my bad english)

Gassho.

[Jishin]

Seems like a good Koan. I'd probably answer what Bodhidharma answered to Emperor Wu: "- I don't know.", at now, I guess this would be the only possible answer.




A better answer would be to stomp the ground or have tea with the emperor. :)

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Seido]

A wonderful question Marcos.
Thanks to all for their responses.
Thank you Jundo.

Gassho,
Seido
SatToday