BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 60

[Jundo]

Case 59 never ends, and so we lay down Case 60, Ryutetsuma's Old Cow ...

One of the few Koans to prominently feature a woman, and she gets called an "old cow"! Hmmm. For a Way beyond Preferences and Distinctions, maybe just a little sexism in Zen and all Buddhism (although perhaps just of reflection of the conservative, traditional Indian, Chinese, Japanese and other Asian countries where these folks lived). What do you think about that? Shishin Wick believes that the reference to "Old Cow" is actually to a symbol of wisdom and one's True Nature. Still, the Zen world, Buddhist Sutras and these Koans are rather a sausage festival. [happy]

In any case, as Shishin Wick points out in his commentary, the fact that it would be physically impossible to travel so far away as "Mount Tai tomorrow" has a message for a Sangha such as ours which transcends here and there, time and distance. Do you taste, or have experienced, how Enlightenment transcends time and space? Thus Kyozan is quoted as saying (to modernize), "if you beat a drum in China, they dance in Paris".

Was Isan's lying down such laziness and surrender? Or was it more a "no need to do, all has been said and done" statement?

Even though Isan lay down and the Old Cow left, do you feel that they met on Mount Tai or not?

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Onkai]

Thank you, Jundo.

In historical documents, there are signs of sexism. That's as true for western history and religious traditions as well as for Asian traditions. I'm glad there are some examples of strong female practitioners in the koans and that Dogen denounces sexism.

I think that Isan's lying down was more of a "no need to do, all has been said and done" statement. Lying down is what one does after a feast. The teacher was apparently happy to see the student. Such a meeting could stand in for a feast, so it is as if they had met on Mount Tai.

Gassho,
Onkai
SatToday

[TyZa]

I agree with Onkai's interpretation that lying down is what one does after a feast. Further, I also tend to agree with Wick's commentary that Isan has been there and done that (referring to the Appreciatory Verse) and he didn't want to dharma fight anymore. Potentially, because Isan was already at the feast anyway. Harkening back to "Did you come by boat or by land?"

Also, this is the first I've heard of Dharma Combat. Now, that is something I would watch on a Friday night!

I really enjoyed the description of Ryutetsuma's intense personality and understanding. As Onkai and Jundo point out, there was and still is sexism in Zen. However, if Wick's commentary is correct it seems very likely to me that the "Old Cow/Buffalo" was in fact an honorable/friendly greeting. I really enjoy these Koans with short main cases and will be researching a little more about Ryutetsuma!

Gassho,
Tyler
SatToday

[Roland]

Did they meet on mount Tai? Which mount? Maybe this is a story about our never ending and ever changing obsessions: if ever we could be part of that great party, achieve that particular spiritual quest, get that promotion, master that subject matter - only to find out it's never enough, not quite what we hoped for.
Mount Tai and the impossible desire to be there tomorrow could just stand for our deluded longings, while lying down could illustrate 'letting go'. Effortlessly 'letting go' could be yet another deluded longing, so Isan does not even adopt some formal meditation posture but makes his point by lying down.

Gassho

Roland
#SatToday

[Eishuu]

I really like your interpretation Roland. Thank you for sharing it.

Gassho
Lucy
sat today

[Hoko]

I also like your interpretation, Roland.

"There's a big prize just on the other side of impossible! Are you going?" the Old Cow who tests monks (wisdom) asks.
In response Isan "lay himself down". Very important choice of words there, perhaps?
What does it mean to lay the self down?

"Jeweled whip (subject) and golden horse (object) passing the day at leisure (lying around?)."
Ryutetsuma left. The old monk "lay himself down" and there was suddenly no wisdom, no delusion, no subject, no object.
No more words in the koan!

For some reason I am also reminded of Brad Warner's interpretation of Dogen's Uji. "The self lays itself out to look at itself".
But then, maybe it's just the "laying down the self" and "laying itself out".

Gassho,
K2
#SatToday

[Toun]

Read the koan, pondered on it and sat with it...will repeat the process a few more times.
Enjoyed reading all of the great comments.

gassho1
Gassho
Mike
Sat2day

[TyZa]

Mount Tai and the impossible desire to be there tomorrow could just stand for our deluded longings, while lying down could illustrate 'letting go'. Effortlessly 'letting go' could be yet another deluded longing, so Isan does not even adopt some formal meditation posture but makes his point by lying down.

Gassho

Roland
#SatToday

Really enjoyed this part. Thank you for your interpretation.

Gassho,
Tyler
SatToday

[Jundo]

Read the koan, pondered on it and sat with it...will repeat the process a few more times.
Enjoyed reading all of the great comments.

gassho1
Gassho
Mike
Sat2day

Oh, maybe don't "sit with it" so, but just sit.

And also, at other times considering the Koans, learn how to "ponder-non-ponder" Koans, thinking a little but also approaching with the Wisdom and Compassion beyond and right through all thought. Absent such, piercing the Koans is impossible.

Thus, ancient teachers including Yaoshan and Dogen and so many wrote of "non-thinking", which is not simply "thinking" nor simply "not thinking" ...



思量箇不思量底。不思量底、如何思量、非思量、此乃坐禪之要術也。

... Think not-thinking. How do you think not-thinking (fu-shiryo)? Non-thinking (hi-shiryo). This in itself is the essential art of zazen.

(from Fukanzazengi)

Pondering is a powerful human tool to understand words, but those thoughts and words become illuminated, translucent, are transformed, open up airy, are experienced as substanceless even as they maintain their substance. gassho1

But now that we have had this lovely discussion thinking about "Koans" and "non-thinking" ... let's not get too caught up in intellectual traps of thinking about 'em! :p

Gassho, J
SatToday

PS - If you would like to read more words on "non-thinking" and the wordless words ... A highly recommended thread to all our Koan folks ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9263-SIT-A-LONG-with-JUNDO-WHO-OWNS-THE-KOANS&p=68228&viewfull=1#post68228

[Jishin]

Do you taste, or have experienced, how Enlightenment transcends time and space?


Don't touch the hook.

It's cold in Alaska even during the summer. Had to buy a hat today for my bald head. Will go whale watching tomorrow. Can't wait.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jakuden]

I have to say, when I read this I immediately thought about Treeleaf. I thought, of course there is nowhere to go... they were on Mt. Tai just like we are in Tsukuba Japan every weekend! Enlightenment is everywhere and nowhere.
Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Toun]

Thanks for the advice Jundo!

gassho1
Deep bows
Gassho
Mike
Sat2day

[Ishin]

Here is my poor attempt at grasping, but not grasping this koan [evil2]

The two are testing each other, and this koan to me speaks of the "person of no rank", but also celebrating each other's understanding

Isan is DELIBERATELY insulting the woman, Tetsuma, calling her Old Cow. ( possibly a double meaning if Old Cow really does mean a person who has found their true nature then he is in way both insulting and praising her worth) If she is self important or engaged in being a special person because she has achieved a level of enlightenment, she will be insulted. She is not insulted, BECAUSE she has understanding and knows that he is just referring to her as "nothing special", but also she knows having achieved understanding she is also nothing special.

Her clever rebuttal is to ask Isan if he will be going to a feast at Mt. Tai, and she calls him Master. The "feast at Mt. Tai" is much like we might think of going to the holiest of places in the Himalayas because we have finally become so spiritually importnat that we must have achieved something. In other words, her question is more like, " and you, are you so special yourself?"

His reply is simply to lay down. In other words he has no plans to go anywhere and doesn't need to go anywhere. He is content being simply Isan.

She leaves as they have both challenged and answered each other in complete understanding.

They didn't actually go to Mt. Tai, nor have any plans to. Nowhere to go, nothing to attain, and also nobody to become, ( or not become).

Gassho
Stupid Ishin
#Sat Today

[Mitty-san]

Taking this in the most face-value way, Ryutetsuma goes to Isan's place for Dharma Combat, but Isan isn't it the mood so he lays down to indicate as much.

From Wick's commentary, I kind of get the impression they're a bit like an old married couple. Ryutetsuma comes over to fool around and play, but Isan is too tired or at least uses that as his excuse. Perhaps one thing it shows is even those adept at Zen still have to sometimes at least deal with mundane problems and interpersonal conflicts.

For Jundo's specific questions, everyone else has had such good replies to the point where I can't think of anything to add or take away from what has been said.

Gassho,

Paul

Sat today.

[Kokuu]

Hello all

I see this koan from the position I am in now. There is nothing left to achieve and no point in anything except direct acceptance and engagement with what is here and now. I can't get to Mount Tai and it has no fascination for me.

A feast on Mount Tai seems the same as 'have you read that particular book/seen that film/been to that monastery or Zen center?'. Often we strive to keep up with everyone else and be in the place which will contribute the most to our development and future happiness. When we drop concern for that we stop trying and just concede that things are as they are. No amount of feasts will change that. Continuing to strive just continues to get nowhere but more striving. Letting go brings peace and acceptance.

I am laying down both figuratively and metaphorically. No more Mount Tais.

Gassho
Kokuu

[Geika]

Gassho, Kokuu

Sat today

[Matt]

"Tommorrow there's a feast on Mount Tai. How will you go?"

I strive to reach Mount Tai daily. At work I am consumed with finishing an impossible list of tasks, often working frantically to get as much done as quickly as possible. Likewise on the weekends I have a list in my head of all that needs to be done before I can relax and enjoy life.

Ryutetsuma and Isan seem to be in no hurry. They have nothing to prove. I get the sense they are enjoying themselves. I feel that I often take myself too seriously and so would do well to learn from the example of these elderly masters.

Gassho
Matt
#SatToday

[Tairin]

As always it is interesting to read everyone's thoughts on the koan. Thank you


Personally it was Wick's commentary that resonated with me.


....when your life and people, even those close to you, goad you, or criticize you, how easy is it to just let go?

Certainly something I suffer from. Hard to take criticism or harsh comments, accept them, and then let them go without attaching to them by carrying them around.

I agree that by laying down Isan is letting go rather than reacting and potentially escalating the exchange. As for the actual exchange, I think it has a friendly vibe to it but I think Isan and Ryutetsuma were testing each other's ability to not attach to the words being spoken.

Gassho
Warren
Sat today

[AlanLa]

I will not play today. See yourself out.

[Risho]

Case 59 never ends, and so we lay down Case 60, Ryutetsuma's Old Cow ...

One of the few Koans to prominently feature a woman, and she gets called an "old cow"! Hmmm. For a Way beyond Preferences and Distinctions, maybe just a little sexism in Zen and all Buddhism (although perhaps just of reflection of the conservative, traditional Indian, Chinese, Japanese and other Asian countries where these folks lived). What do you think about that? Shishin Wick believes that the reference to "Old Cow" is actually to a symbol of wisdom and one's True Nature. Still, the Zen world, Buddhist Sutras and these Koans are rather a sausage festival. [happy]

In any case, as Shishin Wick points out in his commentary, the fact that it would be physically impossible to travel so far away as "Mount Tai tomorrow" has a message for a Sangha such as ours which transcends here and there, time and distance. Do you taste, or have experienced, how Enlightenment transcends time and space? Thus Kyozan is quoted as saying (to modernize), "if you beat a drum in China, they dance in Paris".

Was Isan's lying down such laziness and surrender? Or was it more a "no need to do, all has been said and done" statement?

Even though Isan lay down and the Old Cow left, do you feel that they met on Mount Tai or not?

Gassho, J

SatToday

Apologies, I'm still playing catch up. Thank you all for your responses. It's funny how much everyone influences my practice here. I take it for granted, but sangha is so important to my practice. gassho2

1. Sexism - I would like to hope that we are going to evolve out of this, just like we will hopefully learn to live with and truly respect people who are different from our "tribe".

Sidenote: I love how the Japanese language converts Chinese names. I didn't realize this was "Iron Grindstone" Liu until after reading the commentary. I've always had a softspot for her; I know this is all based on what I've read, but I picture her as a spitfire that didn't take crap. :)

2. Do you taste, or have experienced, how Enlightenment transcends time and space? I think so; I don't know how to explain it, but during zazen there are times when there is no differentiation; then I notice and it's gone. It comes and goes, comes and goes.

3. Was Isan's lying down such laziness and surrender? Or was it more a "no need to do, all has been said and done" statement?

I feel inspired by Dogen. lol

The Buddha, Patriarchs, Matriarchs, Bodhisattva's, Mahasattva's all knew what it was to lie down.

True lying down is not dependent on standing, sitting, or lying. There is standing-lying down, sitting-lying down, lying down while active, lying down while inactive.

Zazen is a vigorous act of inactivity. In zazen, we drop all thoughts of here and there, right and wrong, sitting or standing. This is true lying down. This beyond good and evil is true good. This lying down beyond sitting or standing is true lying down. That does not mean that good and evil are meaningless; we should always strive to be good, but it's that the good may more readily spring forth if we learn how to walk while lying down.

When you are fully engaged with this, not worried about past or present, all energy here and now, this is lying down as Isan did. That's why zazen is so awesome. It allows us to focus all of our energy here and now and learn how to lie down without any distraction. We can extend this same attitude into all that we do. We can also apply what we learn in whatever field we have experience in and apply it to zazen, lying down.

But know that lying down is not lying down. Sitting zazen by trying to empty your head of thoughts or stop thoughts is not true zazen. That is zombie zen. Similarly, lying down to give up or avoid things is not true lying down. This would be the exact opposite of what Isan did.

True lying down is the vigorous activity of all the ancestors and can only be realized by not trying to sit properly; however, this does not mean that we can do whatever we like. So while there is no proper way to sit, we should endeavor to practice zazen wholeheartedly so that we do not sit improperly.

It's like when you practice a profession. After years and years of honing your craft, maybe after 10 years, you start to see it, you learn that to be fully engaged in what you are doing, cutting through to the problem and solving things is lying down. It is only through facing failures and getting back on the cushion, not giving up, that we learn how to lie down.

We earn a place among the ancestors with this lying down, and only then can we offer our unique gift to the world. So although, externally, lying down may seem like it's some non-chalant, lackadaisical response to the world. There is no outside and inside, and it is only through effort that we learn how to lie down as Isan did.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Byokan]

... I feel inspired by Dogen. lol

The Buddha, Patriarchs, Matriarchs, Bodhisattva's, Mahasattva's all knew what it was to lie down.

True lying down is not dependent on standing, sitting, or lying. There is standing-lying down, sitting-lying down, lying down while active, lying down while inactive.

Zazen is a vigorous act of inactivity. In zazen, we drop all thoughts of here and there, right and wrong, sitting or standing. This is true lying down. This beyond good and evil is true good. This lying down beyond sitting or standing is true lying down. That does not mean that good and evil are meaningless; we should always strive to be good, but it's that the good may more readily spring forth if we learn how to walk while lying down.

When you are fully engaged with this, not worried about past or present, all energy here and now, this is lying down as Isan did. That's why zazen is so awesome. It allows us to focus all of our energy here and now and learn how to lie down without any distraction. We can extend this same attitude into all that we do. We can also apply what we learn in whatever field we have experience in and apply it to zazen, lying down.

But know that lying down is not lying down. Sitting zazen by trying to empty your head of thoughts or stop thoughts is not true zazen. That is zombie zen. Similarly, lying down to give up or avoid things is not true lying down. This would be the exact opposite of what Isan did.

True lying down is the vigorous activity of all the ancestors and can only be realized by not trying to sit properly; however, this does not mean that we can do whatever we like. So while there is no proper way to sit, we should endeavor to practice zazen wholeheartedly so that we do not sit improperly.

It's like when you practice a profession. After years and years of honing your craft, maybe after 10 years, you start to see it, you learn that to be fully engaged in what you are doing, cutting through to the problem and solving things is lying down. It is only through facing failures and getting back on the cushion, not giving up, that we learn how to lie down.

We earn a place among the ancestors with this lying down, and only then can we offer our unique gift to the world. So although, externally, lying down may seem like it's some non-chalant, lackadaisical response to the world. There is no outside and inside, and it is only through effort that we learn how to lie down as Isan did.

Risho,

this made my head spin and I had to go lie down. [morehappy] Thank you so much. This is very helpful.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat today