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Jundo
07-03-2016, 01:02 AM
Case 57 never ends, and so our Karma leads us to Case 58, The Dharma Sutra's Reviling ...

The Diamond Sutra Teaches two seemingly contradictory (but are they?) messages on Karma. One, that Karma (our volitional actions and their effects in this life and, perhaps, lives to come) are empty to the eye of Wisdom that can so perceive ...

"All conditioned Dharmas
are like dreams, illusions, bubbles, shadows,
Like dew drops and a lightning flash,
Contemplate them thus."

And yet here, we find the Sutra advising that we may suffer in this life because of the debt of past Karma. Also, our present actions of goodness in this life can help extinguish our debt of Karma.

In these two simultaneously true, yet seemingly conflicting, views on Karma, this Koan resonates with another Koan in the Book of Serenity that we earlier met ... No. 8, the Fox Koan ... and you might have a look back there:


CASE 8 - Hyakujo's (Pai-chang's) Fox

A Zen Teacher claims that, in Great Enlightenment, one is free of Karmic effects, life and death, rebirth. In return, upon his death, he find himself trapped in a fox's body for 500 rebirths. Payback!

The trapped fox (in the guise of an old man) then hears from another Teacher that, in Great Enlightenment, one does -not- evade and cannot ignore Karmic effects, life and death, rebirth.

Upon so hearing, the fox attains Great Enlightenment, is freed from further rebirth as a fox, perhaps from all rebirths, Karmic effects, life and death!

The fellow denying Karma and rebirth is thus trapped in Karma and Rebirth, while upon hearing that even an enlightenment master -cannot- escape Karma and rebirth, he seems to escape Karma and rebirth. Sure sounds like a "not-damned-damned if you do, damned-not-damned if you don't" situation! [scared]

Or (I suggest to you) this is another case of Zen Masters speaking out of "both sides of the no sided mouth". Perhaps, despite seeming quite opposite, both ways are True at once depending on the perspective (and dropping of perspectives).

For example ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9887-BOOK-OF-EQUANIMITY-Case-8

The reference to "Enyadata" in the Verse is to an old story of a deluded person (also called "Yajnadata") who, in ignorance, believes his own head is missing (a case for Oliver Sachs?).


The Shurangama Sutra relates the story of Yajnadatta, the mad man of Shravasti, who one day looked in the mirror and noticed that the person reflected in it had a head. At that point, he lost his reason and said, 'How come that person has a head and I don't? Where has my head gone?' He then ran wildly through the streets asking everyone he met, 'Have you seen my head? Where has it gone?'
He accosted everyone he met, yet no one knew what he was doing. 'He already has a head,' they said. 'What's he looking for another one for?'

The reference to "Hasoda" is also to a tale of someone freed from the delusion of their own making ... Yamada Roshi comments ...


Once there was the mountain Sūzan which had a small shrine with an oven where
the mountain deity was worshiped. However, out of fears that the mountain deity would harm
the inhabitants of the village, they offered sheep and chickens in the oven to the god. But there
was a monk who struck the little shrine three times with his staff and said, “This oven is
composed of mud and brick—where does the holiness come from, where does the spirit arise,
that you burn living creatures?” This is pointing to how the content is empty.
Then he hit the oven three times again, whereupon it fell apart. To say “where does the
holiness come from, where does the spirit arise” means that the content is empty. That evening,
a man appeared wearing a blue robe and a crown. He said, “I was originally the spirit of the
shrine. For a long time I have been subject to the consequences of karma; today, having heard
your explanation of birthlessness, I am free from this place and born in heaven. I just came to
offer thanks.” To speak of “birthlessness” is to realize that it is empty. This is what this line of
the verse is referring to. The name Hasōda means “oven breaker,” referring to how he hit the
oven three times, causing it to collapse. But what is the oven? It is our concepts and thoughts.
http://www.sanbo-zen.org/shoyoroku_58.pdf

Question: Karma is empty. Yet, in your life, what intentional actions on your part delude and trap you in ignorance? Is your own greed, anger and divisive thinking causing you to fall into your own little hells?

Also, can you experience how Karma and all our little heavens and hells are Empty too?

Gassho, J

SatToday

Myosha
07-03-2016, 09:47 AM
Hello

"Question: Karma is empty. Yet, in your life, what intentional actions on your part delude and trap you in ignorance? Is your own greed, anger and divisive thinking causing you to fall into your own little hells?

Also, can you experience how Karma and all our little heavens and hells are Empty too? "

Ef attachment. The world spins with, or without us.


Gassho
Myosha
sat today

Jishin
07-03-2016, 02:51 PM
C



[B]Question: Karma is empty. Yet, in your life, what intentional actions on your part delude and trap you in ignorance? Is your own greed, anger and divisive thinking causing you to fall into your own little hells?

Also, can you experience how Karma and all our little heavens and hells are Empty too?

Simple. Forgetting that from nothing (0) form (1) arises and disappears back to nothing (0). 0=1=0. Don't attach to 1 (form) and suffering is decreased. Also don't attach to emptiness (0) and suffering is decreased. Karma can be viewed as the amplitude of a wave in an ocean where ocean=emptiness and wave=form. Thus 0=1=0=1=0=1=0 add infinitum. Make less Karma at the present wave/form/1 and the next one will be smaller until 1=0=0=0...

As Boddhisavtas we vow to do save all sentient beings before our own wave (1) is extinguished (0) so the above process includes all sentient beings.

The easiest way to go about this Karma business is to have a mirror mind so that when red comes, you see just red. When a tree comes, you see just a tree. Then situations can be perceived clearly and appropriate action taken. You see a hungry person, you give them food. Automatic. How do you do this? Develop your mirror mind. In the Soto tradition we do it with Zazen.

It doesn't get much simpler than that!

Just babbling.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

TyZa
07-03-2016, 10:19 PM
Irritability I experience tends to cause situations to worsen for me based on my actions. Likewise, I may be more susceptible to experiencing irritability from the effects of a particular situation (from other people's causes or the indifferent 'cause/effect' of nature/life). Maybe all of that together as one is the same thing we just call cause and effect.

Maybe like a wheel (O). When the wheel rolls, one side goes up and the other side goes down. The top is moving forward but the bottom is moving back. However, the wheel as a whole is all moving in the same direction and is all connected as 'one' object. To expand the imagery, a circle (O) cannot be a circle unless it contains emptiness. Not sure if I totally missed the mark here but this imagery popped into my head a little while ago.

Gassho,
Tyler

SatToday

Jundo
07-04-2016, 01:40 AM
It may help to savor "Emptiness", not as "nothingness", but as a flowing Wholeness so whole that all individual things and categories ... me and you, good and bad, this and that, birth and death, even "something" and "nothing" and "broken" and "whole" ... are all swept up and washed away, all while being each and all what they are too. It ain't just zero, and it ain't just the hole in the donut ... although it is all that too, plus the whole donut shop and every number. Emptiness is the sea which holds every wave, and while waves rise and fall and come and go, each wave is just the sea all along ... and the sea flows on and on ...

Gassho, J

SatToday

Jishin
07-04-2016, 02:11 AM
Well, I just am not that good with words. Best to chop wood and carry water.

We have a little cabin in New Mexico with 3.5 acres. Lots of trees. My wife put up a bird feeder one week ago and now they are coming regularly to visit. The dogs absolutely love it here. They love the neighbor's dogs and chase the occasional deer when it hops over the fence into our property. They never catch the deer off course. I wish I could live here year round but I got a day job. Maybe some day. As for now, best chop wood and carry water.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Jundo
07-04-2016, 02:39 AM
Well, I just am not that good with words. Best to chop wood and carry water.

We have a little cabin in New Mexico with 3.5 acres. Lots of trees. My wife put up a bird feeder one week ago and now they are coming regularly to visit. The dogs absolutely love it here. They love the neighbor's dogs and chase the occasional deer when it hops over the fence into our property. They never catch the deer off course. I wish I could live here year round but I got a day job. Maybe some day. As for now, best chop wood and carry water.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

So lovely, even as completely empty! :)

You must have fortunate Karma.

Gassho, J

SatToday

TyZa
07-04-2016, 03:37 AM
It's hard describing something like this with finite language, especially when one hasn't fully grasped it in their bones :)

Isn't the word translated as Emptiness sometimes translated as "Thusness" or "Suchness?" If so, that seems to help define what is meant by "emptiness."

Gassho,
Tyler

SatToday

Jundo
07-05-2016, 02:07 AM
It's hard describing something like this with finite language, especially when one hasn't fully grasped it in their bones :)

Isn't the word translated as Emptiness sometimes translated as "Thusness" or "Suchness?" If so, that seems to help define what is meant by "emptiness."

Gassho,
Tyler

SatToday

Well, Barbara over at About Buddhism does about as good a job as anyone in nailing that jello to the wall, explaining "Suchness" in a nutshell ...

http://buddhism.about.com/od/mahayanabuddhism/fl/Tathata-or-Suchness.htm

I will say simply this: Suchness is "the way things are" truly. Shunryu Suzuki Roshi used to say "The Way Things Is".

For Dogen and many other Mahayana Buddhists, by the way, the "Emptiness" of all phenomena of this world not only means that all the separate things of this world vanish through the loss of their separate identity. Rather, Emptiness also sweeps around to revivify all things, showing each and all as a shining jewel in Indra's Net ... precisely itself in its own perfection, each holding all and all just each. Tyler is but the flowing sea of Emptiness ... yet Tyler is too just revealed as a bright shining Tyler, as Tyler as Tyler can be. Tyler holds all the sea as the sea is but Tyler flowing. This too is "Suchness". Thus we have sayings like ...

"Before a man studies Zen, to him mountains are mountains and waters are waters; after he gets an insight into the truth of Zen through the instruction of a good master, mountains to him are not mountains and waters are not waters; but after this when he really attains to the abode of rest, mountains are once more mountains and waters are waters."

Put in rusty tin cans, trash piles, bloody battle fields, hungry children and hospital wards ... and it works just the same, by the way. It is just that the dirt and blood obscure the shine. Even as all may be cleansed when encountered as the pure waters of the sea or the bright light of Enlightenment ... and even those even all that might be seen as jewels of the chain ... still, simultaneously, we might seek to cure the disease, pick up the trash, feed the hungry, stop the war and the like.

Tyler too may be Tyler-perfectly Tyler, a shining jewel of Tyler Suchness ... perfectly imperfectly Perfectly Tyler beyond and right through all small human judgements of "perfect vs. imperfect" ... yet Tyler too should work on a few imperfections which may obstruct this fact from view. :)

Gassho, J

SatToday

Jakuden
07-05-2016, 03:12 AM
That's a good article, I bookmarked it to read again! Nailing jello to the wall, indeed.

"Suchness" and "Emptiness," the dance of dependent origination. There is nothing that is not dependent, so that means there is nothing that is not empty. Once one realizes emptiness then, one is free of rebirth, because one has realized that one is just a continuation of the cycle of dependent origination...

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

TyZa
07-05-2016, 06:02 AM
Thank you for that personalized teaching Jundo gassho1 and the link to the article on "suchness", it really helped me to better understand it and its relationship to emptiness. I too will bookmark it!

Gassho,
Tyler

SatToday

Ongen
07-05-2016, 04:11 PM
Question: Karma is empty. Yet, in your life, what intentional actions on your part delude and trap you in ignorance? Is your own greed, anger and divisive thinking causing you to fall into your own little hells? Also, can you experience how Karma and all our little heavens and hells are Empty too?

Yes. Nothing else is causing my little hells but 'me', clearly! Actually, once realised the little hell is nothing but 'me' creating that little hell, it usually disappears quickly. Sadly I am good at creating hells. I blame my being human for that. Luckily I am getting better each day at seeing through them little bastards too :)

I am also the creator of Karma. And karma is the creator of me. It's a wonderful thing.

Gassho
Ongen

Sat today

Onkai
07-06-2016, 03:02 AM
This discussion is very timely for me. I have been working on several self-improvement projects, and seem to be failing. Maybe self-improvement projects are functions of the ego, a way of creating a hell, an attachment. Still, the parts in the commentary about patience spoke to me. The discussion here about suchness opens the perspective much wider than I was seeing.

Gassho,
Onkai
SatToday

Meishin
07-07-2016, 04:55 PM
It is easier to think of this koan in terms of work. I make my living dividing people into various categories, called diagnoses. In the context of the work, those are "real." They create consequences (karma). But I have done this for a long time. And over the years I notice how slippery they are. Diagnoses come and go. I do the same in my life. Sometimes I am insulted. Taken advantage of. Then a little time passes and I realize it is nothing. It is part of the "whole catastrophe," nothing else. Both moments feel real while they are present. In Zazen I notice they come and go too. There is A Very Important Thought that suddenly falls away to something I cannot name.

Koans seem very obvious even as they seem like utter nonsense.

Gassho
Meishin
sat today

Hoseki
07-08-2016, 03:30 PM
Hi folks,


I think in this context I think of Karma as just history. Each of us are faced with what's happening right now not what happened in the past. What's happening now is connected to the past but the past is past and can't be changed. Why do I have anxiety? I don't know but it is related to my history somehow. Some combination of factors, genetics combined with early life experiences, a history of manipulative coping strategies etc... Either way, I'm faced with anxiety now as I write this. I'm not dealing with yesterday's anxiety.

I only live now and the past for all that it can illuminate is but a story. That's the only way we can engage with. It can help us understand things now, plan for the future etc... but that's about it. So our Karma is like this. It can trap us in our own suffering because we wish the world to be other than it is right now. This struggle increases the suffering we experiencing. Its the difference between having dog shit on your shoe and having it all over your legs. Neither is comfortable but one is preferable. However, once we recognize the world is as it is. We can get on to the business of cleaning our boots as much as possible. There's no need to wallow in shit if we can avoid it :)

Long story short, if we recognize karma as the movement of history up to this point we can see what happens next is in some part up to us. As for our karma being empty I think its because history is complex and contradictory and appears to operating simultaneously at different scales. I don't think we are just affected by Karma but we are in a way its embodiment. I'm acted upon and am moved. I act upon others and they are moved. I'm acted upon and we are both moved. I act upon others and we both moved.


Or at least thats the last thing I thought about when I got read to comment. I found this koan and the comments to be rather stimulating.



Gassho
Sat today

Adam

Roland
07-09-2016, 08:40 AM
What is "our own" in "your own greed, anger and divisive thinking"? It is as much or as little "mine" as the thoughts which pop up and evaporate while just sitting. Yet, on another level, they have an impact on "me" and the "others". The greed, anger, divisive thinking, fear come from past and present, from "myself" and "others", which makes me feel responsible for my speech, thoughts and actions, yet while sitting, it somehow all drops away giving space for quietness and compassion.

Gassho

Roland
#SatToday

Tairin
07-09-2016, 06:21 PM
I tend to have trouble with the concept of karma because my Western trained mind associates karma and reincarnation. I struggle with how I feel about reincarnation but if karma is viewed as the pattern of cause and effect then it is something very fundamental. I truly believe that the consequence of past Warren's behaviours and actions have an impact on the present Warren. The same way what present Warren does impacts the possible future Warrens. I think the key is to not sit and dwell on the future Warren but to, in this present moment, be the best Warren I can be. If I do that then the future takes care of itself.

Reminds me of the saying "The true test of a man's character is what he does when no one is watching" (John Wooden)

Gassho
Warren
Sat today

Eishuu
07-10-2016, 01:58 PM
I sometimes think of karma as well worn patterns or pathways of thought or even neural networks. I had a moment the other week when I noticed a familiar pattern of thought pop into my mind - anxiety about the state of the garden - which normally leads me to nagging my husband to do some weeding, etc, which might then lead to an argument or bad feeling/resentment. (as a bit of context I'm not able to do it myself because of health issues, which leads to frustration) But rather than act on it by saying something, I was able to chose not to, realising that it would create an unpleasant experience for him and just wasn't necessary, and that it was my own anxiety - so somehow I let the whole situation go. The garden has got quite wild, but I am appreciating the beauty of that.

I feel like Zazen is allowing me to start to drop thoughts and feelings off the cushion as well as on, preventing familiar patterns of behaviour and events from reoccurring. I enjoy the spaciousness that Zazen gives me and the feeling that I don't have to take my thoughts so seriously, and that there is the possibility to break the feeling/thought - behaviour/speech - cause-effect cycle.


Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

Jakuden
07-11-2016, 12:10 AM
Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread, so many great comments. I am learning a lot from everyone's take on this.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

Toun
07-11-2016, 12:41 AM
Enjoyed the comments!
With much gratitude.

Gassho
Mike

Sat2day

orangedice
07-13-2016, 07:29 PM
Helloooo, it's been awhile since I've posted. I've been catching up on the Book of Equanimity study, which I've been enjoying very much--I bought the book awhile ago but felt overwhelmed in studying it solo. I haven't been able to join in on the older ones since they're locked, but I'm glad I'm caught up enough to join the discussion. It actually comes at the right time, because I had a lot of... emotions with this koan, more so than any of the previous ones. Especially because of all the deaths happening at the hands of police. This koan, to me, seems to excuse violence in a way. People of color, and Black people specifically, have been put down, beaten, and killed. They've been reviled and oppressed by institutional racism and laws. To me, the koan seems to say that it's the oppressed people's fault that they are being reviled and killed, because of this line, "that person has acquired negative karma in a previous existence." And that is absolutely wrong to me.

BUT Adam's comment has helped me understand the koan better: "Long story short, if we recognize karma as the movement of history up to this point we can see what happens next is in some part up to us." So yes, centuries of oppression has led us to this moment. And we can change it. Still... is that what the koan originally meant??

My anger bubbled up when trying to answer Jundo's question "Is your own greed, anger, and divisive thinking causing you to fall into your personal hell?" I went through those negative thoughts, and this is what I wrote under anger.


I don't consider myself an angry person in my personal/social life. But when it comes to social justice, that is another matter. I think the oppressed have a right to be angry. They/we are already being beaten down, and passivity allows the status quo to continue the violence. Movements like #BlackLivesMatter are nonviolent, yet they are still being beaten and hurt.

How is this delusion? Should we ignore these injustices because we should suffer in silence? Because we shouldn't become attached to the thought that "there should be justice"?

Anyway, lots of mixed feelings and thoughts on this koan.

Gassho,
June
#SatToday

Jundo
07-14-2016, 12:58 AM
My anger bubbled up when trying to answer Jundo's question "

Hi June,

I usually post the following when the topic of "righteous anger" comes up ... it may be "justified", but it is also playing with fire. I prefer "righteous indignation" which might spur us on to seek justice.



Can there be Righteous Anger? Is there a time when anger is acceptable, and not simply justified? Or as Buddhists who cultivate peace and hold to the Bodhisattva Vows that say Do not hold on to anger, are we to always try and put aside the anger in favor of compassion and peacefulness?

:evil: or 8)

This is an interesting question. You have probably seen, in Tibetan Buddhism, images of "wrathful" deities who turn their "pure anger" toward such causes as the protection of the Dharma and the saving of all Sentient Beings ... their wrath is directed at fighting evil, fire with fire ...

http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/deities/wrathful_deities.htm

http://www.khandro.net/images/mahakala4-1.GIF

Anger is also a natural part of being human ... like sadness and fear ... and we should not be angry about sometimes getting a little angry (or sad about sometimes being sad, etc.). That's just how our animal brains are wired.

HOWEVER, unlike sadness (which is just part of the scenery of life, rainy days following sunny), or fear (which may even serve to keep us safe and out of harm's way if held in moderation) ... anger is truly fire & TNT, and has potential to do great harm. It is more likely to end up as a fight in a bar, a broken relationship or starting a war than it is to do any positive good. As well, there are other emotions and perspective which can accomplish the positive goods more effectively.

So, for example, calm reflection, looking for a constructive solution and keeping one's head as much as possible while taking effective action is an approach more likely to solve a problem in this world or in one's life than tossing more fuel on the fires of hate. ... Perhaps, "righteous indignation" or "tough love" (if a parent ... even the Zen Master's "30 blows" are more of this kind) or "a firm hand with a calm mind" may be justified by a situation ...

... but I would say that anger is rarely, if ever, an appropriate response.

We discuss the subject more during out study study of the Jukai Precepts ...



Also this, on playing with fire ...


[T]o fully remove these emotions from the human mind ... including potentially harmful emotions such as anger ... would rob of us of an important part of being human. We would be reduced to living in a way as emotionally numb and dull as a piece of cold wood or a stone. Some schools of Buddhism (and some other Eastern and Western religions too) have sought to completely kill or squelch such emotions within us (sometimes many other human emotions too). This has traditionally been described as pouring water on the fire until coals become completely wet and cool, and the fire is completely out.

When Buddhism came to China, Korea, Tibet and Japan ... the Buddhist teachings on the emotions subtly changed (I paint with a broad brush, but I speak as a general trend). The fires of emotions were not seen as necessarily negative things, but they must be handled carefully and with balance. A campfire, so useful for cooking our supper if skillfully made, will quickly burn down the woods if left untended. A single candle which offers light can burn us and others, and the whole house down, if handled wrong. So it is with our emotions.

...

... Thus I say that the Precepts guide us away from excess and uncontrolled anger, greed, jealousy ... Anger at injustices in the world, for example, may spur us on to fight for change ... yet that anger should be kept in balance, and tempered with an equal dose of acceptance of life, lest it burns us to ashes too. The desire for change should not be allowed to run rampant as greed for and attachment to change from 'how things are'. A healthy dose of competition need not become jealousy and violence. We should use strong words much as we would scold a 3 year old child found playing with matches ... that is, with love and concern and understanding, not simply to hurt the child. A harsh word can be an "intervention" to shake a friend up who needs to hear ... or it can simply be a cruel and destructive word meant to hurt someone (the most famous example of "Zen tough love" may be all those old tough talking Masters administering "40 blows" of Wisdom). Thus, do not extinguish life fires ... but handle them with care and use them in constructive ways!

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?8266-Playing-With-Fire



Gassho, J

SatToday

Jishin
07-14-2016, 11:00 AM
Especially because of all the deaths happening at the hands of police.

Hi June,

A good portion of the police force suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. This means that they can over react to situations that may be dangerous. Not any different than a woman who has been sexually assaulted or a soldier exposed to war. The public forgets about this and the police force does not seek help for fear of losing their jobs. They are victims of violence too.

Just my 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Meishin
07-14-2016, 01:02 PM
Hi June,

A good portion of the police force suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. This means that they can over react to situations that may be dangerous. Not any different than a woman who has been sexually assaulted or a soldier exposed to war. The public forgets about this and the police force does not seek help for fear of losing their jobs. They are victims of violence too.

Just my 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Yes. Here is a link to a good article : http://www.policemag.com/channel/careers-training/articles/2013/02/police-and-ptsd.aspx

Gassho
Meishin
sat today

Jishin
07-14-2016, 09:08 PM
Yes. Here is a link to a good article : http://www.policemag.com/channel/careers-training/articles/2013/02/police-and-ptsd.aspx

Gassho
Meishin
sat today

Nice article. Direct or indirect contact with patients leads to PTSD too but nobody talks about this either.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Hoko
07-14-2016, 09:16 PM
Regarding Case 58:
To be despised by the people of this world is to extinguish the sins of the past.
To be separated from the past is to break the cause from the effect and smash the wheel of karma.
Who can peel the backing from this mirror?
I may break off a piece of the Kit Kat bar but ultimately I'm going to eat the whole thing!
(And when I'm done I'll still be hungry...)

Gassho
K2
#SatToday

orangedice
07-16-2016, 08:00 AM
Thank you Jundo, this is definitely something I have to work with. It will be hard, to say the least. AAHH. I think this is what is really difficult for me:


Anger at injustices in the world, for example, may spur us on to fight for change ... yet that anger should be kept in balance, and tempered with an equal dose of acceptance of life, lest it burns us to ashes too.

It's the "acceptance" part. Maybe it's the connotation. Acceptance to me is like... condoning. So accepting that the world is how it is also means condoning the evil things in the world. I acknowledge they exist. Is that what acceptance is? I want to be constructive; I don't want to be angry; I don't want there to be anything to be angry about, but there is. I'm struggling so hard to accept this and temper my anger and despair. I try to remember to have thoughts of compassion and lovingkindness even for those who I consider are doing these despicable things, but it's so hard for me. This is definitely something for me to try to learn in my heart. Time for some more frequent lovingkindness meditation I think...

Thank you again.

Jishin, PTSD is a huge problem, and unfortunately, even with awareness, the social stigma against mental health issues holds us back dearly. But does that explain the officers who shoot to kill someone with their hands up? And disproportionately black men and women? That's what really gets me boiled up. I'd be happy to talk more about this through PM so I'm not clogging up the thread. Thank you for sharing the article.

Thank you to everybody. Gassho,
June
SatTodayEvenThoughItWasOnlyForAFewMinutes

AlanLa
07-16-2016, 10:14 PM
Is my greed, anger and ignorance causing me to fall into my own little hells? Yes.
Can I experience how those hells (heavens) are empty? Yes.
BUT
I tend to focus on the causation aspect of emptiness rather than the suchness. That is, I focus more on form as emptiness rather than emptiness as form. It's become my default position, and for the most part it works pretty well. And when it doesn't, emptiness as form is my fallback position. So, one way or another, my little hells don't last too long, and my heavens always get disturbed at some point. I just try to surf the waves as best I can and pick myself up when I fall.
BUT
What I got out of this koan and thread was that I seem to be focusing on one surfing style rather than learning to use both with equal ease. But saying that, I also see how I treat the styles as a duality rather than as a whole. To experience that wholeness is my challenge.

I say the verse of atonement at the end of every zazen. I like how it helps me find my greed, anger, and ignorance so that I can let them go. It is a very valuable part of my practice. My life provides me an endless supply of karmic material to work with, and I suppose I need to be more grateful about that.

Mitty-san
07-18-2016, 03:51 AM
This reminds by of an old Buddhist Sutra called: Sallatha Sutta: The Arrow (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.than.html).

The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows; in the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental.

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental.

In my own experience with some physical pain, the mental pain can be strong. I think how did I let this happen? What if it gets worse? What if there's permanent damage or chronic pain?

I've sometimes found being mindful of phyiscal pain can help make it feel less overwhelming. I focus on experiencing it just as it is.

Even if something non-physically bad happens, such as losing a job or loved one, there's always a lot of suffering while going through the stages of grief.

In regard to staying out of hell or keeping the stay there short, for me at least, each struggle is different. but living a simple life helps. The less fancy things I have the less fancy things there are to worry about. Driving by fancy houses sometimes I think how much of a hassle it would be to maintain a house like that and the accompanying lifestyle.

On the other hand, sometimes it's helpful to stay in hell for a bit to see what demons turn up and what can be learned from them.

Gassho gassho1,
Paul