BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 51

[Jundo]

We return to our play in the Koans of the Book of Equanimity, and Shishin Wick's down to earth, wonderful commentary. This time, Case 51 - Hogen's "By Boat or By Land" (For those who have not purchased the book, or are waiting for arrival, it is here):

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=WTU6AwAAQBAJ&dq=BOOK+OF+EQUANIMITY+-+Case+51+boat+land&q=++boat+land+deludes+many+people++#v=snippet&q=boat%20land%20deludes%20many%20people&f=false

For the ignorant, all things in human life are just what they appear. For Buddha, all is empty and not there at all as the separate things, events and people the mind believes.

Yet for Buddhas too, all is empty and not there, yet is there as there can be. Each thing and event and person is not just that, yet is everything and Buddha too. As the famous saying goes ...


Before I had studied Zen for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, and waters as waters. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and waters are not waters. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and waters once again as waters.

Thus, when asked how one came, an ordinary deluded fellow might say "by boat" or "on the bus". A Zen fellow might answer "where is there to come from, to where might one go?" There is no coming and going. Or he might answer "by boat" ... and that boat is just a boat, yet is not just a boat for it is also "where is there to come from, to where might one go ... no coming no going". (In fact, one sees that the boat is just the bus and all the flowers and stars in the sky too).

When Kaku said "boat in the river" did he mean just "boat in the river" or did he mean "boat in the river"? When Hogen called "door" a "door", did he mean that the door is a "door" or that the door is a "door"? The enlightened sage can walk through such a door when it is open and when it is closed. (It is also the bus door, the flowers door, the sky door and me and you door too).

From the Preface: In just this same way, worldly things usually delude us, and Buddhadharma enlightens. But worldly things enlighten when they are encountered as not just worldly though worldly. The worldly is then precisely Buddhadharma. However, "Buddhadharma"obstructs when it is turned into just some worldly thing.

We also are reminded of another Koan with Hogen, "not knowing is most intimate." But what kind of "knowing" is this "not knowing"? It is not simple ignorance and lack of education. As well, ordinary "knowing" is actually ignorance for the Zen fellow, because it is limited to a world of this and that, me and you.

The intimate "not knowing" of the Zen Master is that which shines through all the worldly things ... such that sailing boats do not come and go even as they come and go.

QUESTIONS (just suggested, talk about anything you want):

HOW DID YOU GET HERE?

WHERE DID YOU PARK YOUR CAR?

DOES THE ZENNY LOGIC OF WHAT I DESCRIBE SEEM CLEAR OR CONFUSING TO YOU?

HOW MIGHT IT HELP US LIVE OUR LIVES FREE?

Gassho, J

PS - For those new to Koans, some tips on reading the book can be found here ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9674-BOOK-OF-EQUANIMITY-Case-1

[Myosha]

We return to our play in the Koans of the Book of Equanimity, and Shishin Wick's down to earth, wonderful commentary. This time, Case 51 - Hogen's "By Boat or By Land" (For those who have not purchased the book, or are waiting for arrival, it is here):




QUESTIONS:

HOW DID YOU GET HERE?

WHERE DID YOU PARK YOUR CAR?



Hello,

Always deferred to the 'little one in the canoe'.^^


Gassho
Myosha sat today

[Meishin]

Hello,

I'll be traveling (though going nowhere) for the rest of the month. Will join in the discussion then (though I will have been part of the discussion all along). I've enjoyed being back at Treeleaf, but as Jundo reminded me I never really left. The zenny logic is clear, and it is not.

Gassho
Meishin
sat today

[Jakuden]

HOW DID YOU GET HERE? I live here.

WHERE DID YOU PARK YOUR CAR? In the garage.

DOES THE ZENNY LOGIC OF WHAT I DESCRIBE SEEM CLEAR OR CONFUSING TO YOU? I think it is similar to what I have been learning here for the past year. Not knowing can be enlightenment, and knowing can be ignorance.

HOW MIGHT IT HELP US LIVE OUR LIVES FREE? Perhaps in this case, it helps us live our lives freely because we don't always have to look deeply into things for enlightenment.... it is already there. Like the car parked in the garage.

Or, I could be totally off the mark. :)

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Onkai]

I was directed here by an ad in Tricycle magazine, I believe. It may have been a different magazine.
I don't drive, but the car is in the driveway
The zenny logic of what you describe is contradictory, but it reminds me to pay attention.
It may lead us to wisdom and away from ignorance.



I was glad for the commentary. Without the commentary, the whole thing would have just gone over my head.

Gassho,
Onkai
SatToday

[Mp]

Thank you Jundo ...

HOW DID YOU GET HERE? I was always here! How do I get to a place I never left? By allowing my delusion to fall away and to see life in its true form.

WHERE DID YOU PARK YOUR CAR? What car?

DOES THE ZENNY LOGIC OF WHAT I DESCRIBE SEEM CLEAR OR CONFUSING TO YOU? I am "clearly confused" ... and yet the truth is still right here.

HOW MIGHT IT HELP US LIVE OUR LIVES FREE? For me it helps in supporting to be open and accepting of what life has to offer in all its forms. Whether here or there, whether confused or understood, all is good practice, all the time. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jishin]

HOW DID YOU GET HERE?

- Walk.

WHERE DID YOU PARK YOUR CAR?

- Point to car.

DOES THE ZENNY LOGIC OF WHAT I DESCRIBE SEEM CLEAR OR CONFUSING TO YOU?

- Originally nothing. Want confuse? Have confuse. Want clear? Have clear.

HOW MIGHT IT HELP US LIVE OUR LIVES FREE?

-You already know.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

It is not about cute or witty answers. You have to feel this and see through it ... and when you do, it truly does not matter whether you call a door a "door" or a window. In such case, it is not about what you say or don't say.

You know where you came from, where you are going.

That being so ... HOW DID YOU GET HERE? WHAT'S YOUR RIDE?

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jishin]

HOW DID YOU GET HERE? WHAT'S YOUR RIDE?



You brought me here. I ride on your back. :)

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jishin]

It is not about cute or witty answers. You have to feel this and see through it ... and when you do, it truly does not matter whether you call a door a "door" or a window. In such case, it is not about what you say or don't say.

You know where you came from, where you are going.

That being so ... HOW DID YOU GET HERE? WHAT'S YOUR RIDE?

Gassho, J

SatToday

On a more serious note. Everything I see, hear, smell, taste, touch or think is me. When I see Jundo I see me and I am not psychotic. You are my face. I feel this in my bones. Everything I have ever seen or thought. It's all me. Everything that sees me. It's me. Everything I will ever see or think. It's me. I feel this in my bones. I truly do. Everything you ever wrote was written by me. I feel this 100% in my bones. And so do you. All my good Zenny answers. All my bad ones. Everything. Me. 100%. Also written by you. This being so, my cute or witty answers are true and witty answers. Just that. And if they are pretentious. They are just that. 100%.

But this is mind zen.

Compassion zen is the hard part for me. It requires action. I am a doctor. I have lots of compassion and act on it. But not enough to go around all the time. And this is ok. It's just Jishin.

I got here the same way you did. My ride is your ride. Don't know.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Geika]

No coming, no going, and no car.
Where is the boundary between one place and another?

Sat today, gassho

[Eishuu]

On reading the koan and commentary through for the first time I felt very confused. I think maybe that's a good thing. I'm going to let it settle for a few days and come back to it. It feels like something that needs some time.

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

[Jika]

When I see Jundo I see me and I am not psychotic.

That's good. You'd have more space for tattoos again. Probably.

Everything but Wick's commentary drives me crazy.
Why should I not call a boat a boat, why think up a mystical answer?
I'd rather take the sixty blows with a stick (easy to say when Jundo is in Japan), than try to explain why it does not matter if you write "mind" or "window" or "?" above your window.

12-16 times a month now I come from a place where a window is "?", and therefore I take the bus.
(And this "?" is a delusion too. But I prefer a window being quite a window again, thank you.)

I think I've strained my association cortex.
Teacher, please tell me to leave this club and go sit gassho1

Jika
#sattodayfacing?

[Jakuden]

My reply was keeping in mind the journey I have taken learning about Zen... at first Mountains and Rivers are just Mountains and Rivers... then after awhile they are no longer Mountains and Rivers.... then after awhile longer, they are just Mountains and Rivers again.

"How I got here" conjures up more feelings and images than words. I live here, but my living here is the culmination of all my ancestors, their ancestors, the creatures that first walked up on the land from the sea, the cooling of the Earth after the Big Bang... and no knowing of origins beyond that. It is also the mundane fact of my having driven here in my car after leaving work yesterday, having bought a house on this particular piece of land in Upstate New York, having acquired a job in this area 23 years ago and moved here, and the fact that I didn't actually get killed in the Blizzard of 93 when I was stupid enough to drive here in it for a job interview. (Can I include the fact that I can't warn my teenagers of this reckless type of behavior and they will repeat it?)

So I either don't have an answer for "How I got here," because the answer is endless and infinite... a deep Not Knowing.... or it is just Mountains and Rivers again, e.g. I live here and the car is parked in the garage.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Jakuden]

P.S. Jika, I love everything you said.

[Toun]

I read it a few times and this is what "I think"' I'm getting, our maybe actually not getting…

A door is a door and a window is just window. We recognize things for what they are, no more and no less. Where is the boat? Well the boat is in the river. No need to become attached to the thought and meaning or get involved in deep philosophical issues which will further cloud the true nature of our mind.

I came by car which is in the garage but now I’m here. When I leave I will return to the car that’s in the garage and then when I get home, thats where I will be, but for now I am here.

I love it when Seung Sang the Korean Zen master pulled out an orange in front of Kalu Rinpoche and demanded to know “What is this?”. Kalu Rinponche answered “What’s the matter with this fellow? Don’t they have oranges in Korea?”

For a moment it sounded like a little Abbott and Costello routine going on there!

:)

Gassho
Mike

Sat today

[Kokuu]

HOW DID YOU GET HERE? Carried on a thousand grass tips. That took the form of being pushed in a wheelchair. The grass tips took a bit of a beating.

WHERE DID YOU PARK YOUR CAR? Under a tree eighteen months ago. Someone will take it away soon. Another car will park under the same tree.

DOES THE ZENNY LOGIC OF WHAT I DESCRIBE SEEM CLEAR OR CONFUSING TO YOU? I understand it intellectually. Whether it fills my being and penetrates my marrow, I am less sure.

HOW MIGHT IT HELP US LIVE OUR LIVES FREE? I just read Natalie Goldberg's book 'The Great Failure'. She told how Katagiri Roshi would see a problem from angles that other people could not. When the mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers, there is only one possibility. Beyond that, the world opens up and becomes less certain. It is fine for mountains to be mountains and rivers to be rivers but we also need to know that rivers are what we put in the soil, into the air and the bones of our ancestors. It is also good to know that Kokuu is not just this skin bag but the mountains, rivers, car and tree as well.

I don't even know if my car is where I left it.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

[Doshin]

Hmmm, not sure I am on the right wave length but I got here from a journey that has taken billions of years. When I manifested as "Randy" 66 years ago my path was determined by those around me, the world around me, the encouragement of some, discouragement of others, my mistakes, I would fall down, then get up wiser, the joys I experienced, the sorrow I felt, the disappointments, the successes, those I love, those who loved me....they all brought me here. I wonder where I will be tomorrow.

Where did I park my car? I have almost always had a truck, and as the country song says "I love my truck" and its nearby.


Zen Logic?? Is that an oxymoron? :)

Gassho,
Doshin
sattoday

[Jika]

HOW MIGHT IT HELP US LIVE OUR LIVES FREE? I just read Natalie Goldberg's book 'The Great Failure'. She told how Katagiri Roshi would see a problem from angles that other people could not. When the mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers, there is only one possibility. Beyond that, the world opens up and becomes less certain. It is fine for mountains to be mountains and rivers to be rivers but we also need to know that rivers are what we put in the soil, into the air and the bones of our ancestors. It is also good to know that Kokuu is not just this skin bag but the mountains, rivers, car and tree as well.

I don't even know if my car is where I left it.
Thank you, Kokuu.


Zen Logic?? Is that an oxymoron?
Cool, Doshin - that's the explanation why it makes me feel a moron. :)

Gassho
Jika
#sattoday

[Toun]

Hmm...read it a few more times.

One phrase that caught my attention is found in the preface to the assembly when it states that;
"Worldly dharmas enlighten many people. Buddhadharma deludes many people."

What exactly is worldly dharma vs buddhadharma? What are the differences and how can they become one?

Gassho
Mike

Sat-Today

[Jishin]

Hmm...read it a few more times.

One phrase that caught my attention is found in the preface to the assembly when it states that;
"Worldly dharmas enlighten many people. Buddhadharma deludes many people."

What exactly is worldly dharma vs buddhadharma? What are the differences and how can they become one?

Gassho
Mike

Sat-Today

When you drop the question they are one. When you ask the question they are two.

My one cent.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Mp]

When you drop the question they are one. When you ask the question they are two.

My one cent.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

I once heard ...

"Without questions there is no understanding ... with understanding, there is no questions." [scared] *hehehe*

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jishin]

I once heard ...

"Without questions there is no understanding ... with understanding, there is no questions." [scared] *hehehe*

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

Understanding or lack of understanding is neither good or bad. Thinking makes it so.

"...not knowing is most intimate..." :D

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Eishuu]

This is where I am with this: I've been reflecting on the question 'how did you get here?'

The answer that keeps coming back to me is 'I am always here...but I forget' and 'where do I go when I forget?', 'there is no where else to go'.

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

[Mp]

Understanding or lack of understanding is neither good or bad. Thinking makes it so.

"...not knowing is most intimate..." :D

Gassho, Jishin, ST

In a beginners mind there are many possibilities, in an experts mind there are few. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jundo]

I really urge folks to delve a bit deeper into this Koan.

There is a way to experience and know the world that is at the heart of this Zen path, whereby separate individuality drops away into something boundless, flowing, free. There is no you or me, windows or doors, boats or cars, rivers or shore. Quite literally there are no separately identifiable boats, no doors and windows. no you to ride the boat or walk through the door.

Actually, the words "experience" and "know" do not truly apply, because both imply that there is someone (an experiencer and knower) and something perceived (the experienced and known) which are separate. In fact, the wholeness is so intimate, transcending knower and object known, that Zen folks sometimes call this knowing as "not knowing". That "not knowing" is actually a very clear "knowing" which transcends subject and object. "Not knowing" in Zen thus has two important meanings, both far removed from the typical meaning of "being ignorant." First, there is our williingness to be so trusting of this boundless, free flowing that we let it carry us where it will in life. We don't need all the answers, we don't need to know what tomorrow holds in store, we don't need anything ... just content with here and this, because we realize that the boundless free flowing here and this is precisely WHO we are and we are just this. Second, this "not knowing" is the very definite, clear and precise "knowing" I described which we "know" when we transcend the barriers between subject/knower and object/known. This is Satori (which means "Big K Knowing").

One purpose of Zazen of all kinds (both the Koan Centered Zazen of the Rinzai folks and Shikantaza) is to have the hard borders between subject and object soften, become translucent, sometimes fully drop away. Then, mountains are not mountains, windows are not windows and you and I are not you and I too. All is this wonderful flowing boundless flowing of the wholenesss that we call (very misleadingly) "Emptiness". Because there is no subject or object, there is simply no place to come from and no place to go to, and nobody to do the going. There is not even life and death, because only the ever flowing flowing.

That being said ... we then can realize that you and I, bricks and mountains can exist in this world in a conventional sense AND also be simultanously that flowing boundless flowing wholeness emptiness too, all along. We then live in a world of coming and going AND no going no going at once. Life and death and no life or death at once.

Look, it can be hard to get our heads around, but that is what this Practice is about at heart ... because seeing through and become unbound from the separate self is liberating.

Gassho, J

SatToday

PS - Zen logic is not an oxymoron, but just not our usual logic about the world. In our way, doors are doors yet doors are windows (because both are just the very same flowing boundless flowing) and, anyway, what doors and windows (because there is just the flowing boundless flowing)? Doors are no doors at once, for all is just the flowing boundless flowing. Understand?

PPS - Worldly things and obstacles are liberating when we find them as truly boundless flowing all along. However, even Buddhadharma can be an obstruction if we turn it into some separate object that don't flow.

PPPS - I know this is hard, like trying to convince a raindrop that it is just the blowing April shower and May flowers, a grain of sand that it is the swirling desert and every dune. Something like that.

[Roland]

I don't have anything interesting to say about this koan even though it is so fundamental, or rather because it is so much the core of our practice. It is just there, yet so elusive.

Gassho
Roland
#SatToday

[Jishin]

Hi,

Jundo is a wordsmith and a teacher. I am not. I like to keep it simple. So, I summarize my understanding of what he wrote on # 26 as:

First there is Montains vs Waters (Form vs Form) and this is what drives us to Zen, the suffering that it causes.

Then there is Mountains=Waters and Waters=Mountains (Form=Emptiness and Emptiness=Form). Nice and soothing place to be but the trip is not quite done.

Then there is Mountains=Mountains and Waters=Waters (Form=Form and Emptiness=Emptiness). This is Truth. Things are just as they are. But one more step is necessary.

Proper use of Truth is necessary. This results in decreasing suffering for self and others. Without the clear eye of Truth, it is difficult to come up with right action.

I think that is what Jundo just said but I can't say it like he does because I am just Jishin.

My one cent.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Geika]

I just tried to sum up how the koan makes me feel or respond with as few words as possible. Not trying to sound zenny.

Honestly, where is the boundary between two places? There isn't any.

Gassho, sat today

[Ben]

The story from the commentary in which Hogen says that "Above his door he should have written door..." and so forth reminded me of one of my favorite Far Side cartoons.

3577

This cartoon has always seemed to me to be about a sort of delusion: that language allows us to fix meaning and essence. A wall is a wall, the house is the house, a boat is a boat...and yet they are all impermanent and lack essence/self.

Hogen (in that story about the monk painting "mind" on everything) and this koan seem to me to point in an opposite, equally important direction: if our "knowledge" of impermanence is such that we forget that a wall is a wall, the house is the house, a boat a boat, maybe we know less than when we began. Painting "mind" on everything is as surely an attempt to fix meaning as painting "the house," "the dog," etc. And letting the world be the world rather than insisting it is something else is close to the heart of the matter.

Or at least it seems that way to me.

Gassho,
Ben
SatToday

[Marco]

My first koan - ouch! [scared]

Initially, I found myself frustrated. I value plainness in writing and speech, and this seemed anything but plain/direct. After reading the commentary, I calmed down a bit. I'm going to let it sit in my head, re-read, sit in my head, re-read...

Marco

Pre-sit koan

[Jakuden]

LOL Ben I love the Far Side!

I agree Marco, I was vigorously trained to be concise and direct in writing and thinking... abstract thought and expression was NOT encouraged in my Science education... so I will just continue to sit with this Koan for awhile and try to stretch my right-brain a little more [scared]

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Kokuu]

Hi Marco

Koans are definitely a shock to the system at first and almost certainly designed to be that way.

However, after spending some time with koan practice, one thing I really value about many of them is their plainness and directness in terms of illustrating practice. It is definitely a different kind of plainness to what we are used to but one that points straight to the heart of Zen and life.

A good example of this is 'Joshu Washes the Bowl':

'A monk told Joshu, "I have just entered the monastery. Please teach me."
Joshu asked, "Have you eaten your rice porridge?
The monk replied, "I have eaten."
Joshu said, "Then you had better wash your bowl."


I imagine that Jundo would offer better recommendations but I have found two books really helpful to me in terms of getting to grips with koans:

The Zen Koan by Isshu Miura and Ruth Sasaki Fuller
Bring Me The Rhinoceros by John Tarrant

I am still a total beginner, though.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

[Jundo]

I imagine that Jundo would offer better recommendations but I have found two books really helpful to me in terms of getting to grips with koans:

The Zen Koan by Isshu Miura and Ruth Sasaki Fuller
Bring Me The Rhinoceros by John Tarrant

I am still a total beginner, though.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

I would say that both those books are great (especially the Miura-Sasaki book which is a real encyclopedia of Koan references), but they present from a definite Rinzai or Sambyokyodan/Koan Introspection Zazen perspective. Soto folks tend not to use the Koans as objects of contemplation during Zazen, nor as simply conundrums meant to toss a monkey-wrench into the gears of the mind to induce some kind of non-dual experience. Rather, as with this Koan, they a expressions of basic Mahayana and Zen teachings, perspectives and Zenlogic (to be distinquished for ordinary logic) through often playful or creative language meant to bend ordinary expression to such purposes. They are creative ways to express something, like poems or popular songs which try to say something through the powerful use of words and images to touch the heart suggestively, in ways where our ordinary "common sense" use of ideas and words would fail or mislead. In Soto tradition, their meaning can be discussed and are understandable, so long as we remember that they cannot be easily understood in our usual ways and with ordinary logic.

The Miura-Sasaki book does an amazing job (it took decades to write) pointing out the references and bits of doctrine that the Zen masters were referencing. Their jokes and slang and obscure references to Sutras and poems usually were trying to make a point.

This Koan, and our way of discussing what it expressing, is such an example.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Marco]

Thank you for the encouragement and book recommendations :)

Gassho
Marco

[Hoseki]

Hmm...read it a few more times.

One phrase that caught my attention is found in the preface to the assembly when it states that;
"Worldly dharmas enlighten many people. Buddhadharma deludes many people."

What exactly is worldly dharma vs buddhadharma? What are the differences and how can they become one?

Gassho
Mike

Sat-Today

Hi Takoda,

I'm not sure about the others but I thought about worldly dharma in two ways. The first is just everyday working knowledge (conceptual understanding) of what a thing is and how to use it e.g. how one might steer a boat or swim in water. In a sense this knowledge allows you to function in the world. You are able to express your humanity though your actions and these qualities work together to allow you to act in certain ways. The second way of looking at "worldly dharma" is that all things are dharma gates and provide opportunities for awakenings of a sort. All things are part of the net of indra and when one sees one jewel they see the reflection of all the others. But this is pretty much an intellectual thing for me. It's not something that permeated my life.

I took the Buddhadharma to mean two things one is to open the hand of thought (thoughts come and go and we arn't so attached.) I think Uchiyama Roshi wrote that "The expansive sky does not obstruct the floating white clouds." Where the clouds are the thoughts, feelings, sensations we experience and expansive sky is not that exclusively. So the sky is both the clouds and what they are not. This is Buddhadharma as a kind of openness.

But I also took it to be the combination of the worldly dharmas and openness. So Buddhadharma is a lot like my glasses. I can see my cat without them but Mr. Winks is much clearer when I wear them. Either way, hes still there even when my eyes are closed.



Gassho
El Duderino (Adam)
Sattoday

EDIT: I forgot to mention that my second way of looking at "worldly dharma" and a couple of other minor edits.

[FaithMoon]

I think I would like to join this book club. I'm not experienced with koans, but have gleaned some on how to work with them from teisho and classes at ZCLA.

So far, what Hogen and Kaku's conversation points to for me is how well are the teachings integrated into my being. The conversation brings to mind the parable of the raft. Kaku has left the boat in the water. I ask myself: Whatever (dharma) vehicle got me here, am I separate from (attached to) it? "Water does not wash water".

[Ben]

When I read that passage about worldly dharmas and Buddhadharma, I was reminded of something Brad Warner (in Chapter 15 of Don't Be A Jerk, "Hearing Weird Stuff Late at Night") writes about Dogen writing about. To quote Warner: "[Dogen] believed that nature could often explain the dharma to people better than people could explain it to each other through words."

Like FaithMoon, when reading the main case, I also thought of the the simile of the raft. For those unfamiliar with it, here it is from the Alagaddupama Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html), which concerns how one should relate to the Buddhadharma. The first speaker here is the Buddha. The translation is by Thanissaro Bhikkhu:


"Monks, I will teach you the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded to the Blessed One.

The Blessed One said: "Suppose a man were traveling along a path. He would see a great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. The thought would occur to him, 'Here is this great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. What if I were to gather grass, twigs, branches, & leaves and, having bound them together to make a raft, were to cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with my hands & feet?' Then the man, having gathered grass, twigs, branches, & leaves, having bound them together to make a raft, would cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with his hands & feet. Having crossed over to the further shore, he might think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having hoisted it on my head or carrying it on my back, go wherever I like?' What do you think, monks: Would the man, in doing that, be doing what should be done with the raft?"

"No, lord."

"And what should the man do in order to be doing what should be done with the raft? There is the case where the man, having crossed over, would think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having dragged it on dry land or sinking it in the water, go wherever I like?' In doing this, he would be doing what should be done with the raft. In the same way, monks, I have taught the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Understanding the Dhamma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dhammas, to say nothing of non-Dhammas."

Gassho,
Ben
SatToday

[Jakuden]

How can it be known if we have the "Zen Eye" by our answers to these questions? :)

Musing over this some more: Trying to answer "how I got here" could take one into thinking beyond thinking. Who is experiencing "here" or "there?" And what is the difference between starting out and arriving? There is only a separation in the thinking mind.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Jundo]

How can it be known if we have the "Zen Eye" by our answers to these questions? :)



In the end, it is you who know (and "no you" who "no know" [scared] ). I have sometimes expressed the opinion that, if one reads the old Koan stories in which a student offers some witty answer and the teacher would pronounce them enlightened or not, it was not really the answer. It was not that the teacher knew that the student knew by the words, but more that the teacher knew that the student knew that the student knew by looking at the whole package. :) It was the master's observing the students way of expression and, more importantly, way of daily behavior ... the confidence, peace, at homeness in it. Then, it was that the teacher could see and sense by the students words and actions that the student knew that the student knew and was at rest. Understand? How does a master chef know that the disciple has herself become a master chef? By observing the naturalness of her behavior in the kitchen, the tone of her voice and skill of hand, not to mention the tastiness of what is served.

By the way, someone asked me how Koans are typically approached in Soto Zen in contrast to Rinzai and mixed Rinzai-Soto lineages (like those connected to Maezumi Roshi, Sambokyodan and others). I will cut and paste an old post below, a little long.

Gassho, J

Sat Today

========================


Koan Introspection [Zazen] is a very wonderful method for those who benefit, and Shikantaza is not (in my opinion) the only legitimate method. I happen to believe that Shikantaza is a wondrous method which can benefit most people who truly understand its power and pursue such practice, but I am not so stubborn as to insist it must be for everyone. The discussion is not (at least for me) anything to do with what is the best or one true Practice.

As I stated above (and as Dr. Foulk notes), Dogen did engage in "Koan Introsprection" in the sense of dancing and piercing Koans, but not (most historians including Dr. Foulk agree) in the manner of "Koan Introspection Zazen" in the way of Dahui, holding a phrase of a Koan in mind such as "MU" in search of a particular Kensho experience.

The passage you mention is from Eihei-Koroku Vol 8., Dharma Words 14. Those pages seem to be a letter by Dogen to some lay people. The entire passage is about these lay folks, probably outside a monastic setting and trying to maintain a practice on their own, finding a teacher. Once they do, they should ask the teacher to give them a Koan.


Good gentleman, when you meet a teacher, first ask for one case of a [kōan] story, and keep it in mind and study it diligently. If you climb to the top of the mountain and dry up the oceans, you will not fail to complete [this study].

Taigen Leighton, the translator of the Eihei Koroku and many other Dogen writings, says about the above passage, "Unlike in the formal Rinzai curriculum, or the Koan study of Dahui, Dogen does not explicitly recommend the koan stories as objects of formal meditation, but offers them for general contemplation and intent study." Actually, the entirety of what Taigen has to say about Dogen and Koans is very informative, so I will print most of it below (from his Introduction to the Koroku http://www.wisdompubs.org/sites/default/files/preview/Dogen.pdf)

Gassho, J


-----------------

Dogen’s Use of Koans

Although Dogen claimed in Dharma hall discourse 48 that he returned
from China to Japan “with empty hands,” he brought with him an
extraordinary mastery of the extensive Chinese Chan koan literature. A
popular stereotype is that Japanese Rinzai Zen emphasizes koan practice
whereas Soto Zen emphasizes just sitting meditation, or zazen, and even
disdains koans. However, even a cursory reading of Dogen demonstrates
his frequent use of a very wide range of koans. Contrary to the stereotype,
as amply proved in Eihei Koroku along with his other writings, Dogen is
clearly responsible for introducing the koan literature to Japan, and in his
teaching he demonstrates how to bring this material alive.

One legend about Dogen is that on the night before he left China to
return home, with the help of a guardian deity he copied in one night the
entire Hekiganroku, or Blue Cliff Record, still one of the most important
koan anthologies, including one hundred cases with extensive commentary.
Whether or not he accomplished such a supernormal feat, Dogen
certainly brought to Japan not only that text but also an amazing encyclopedic
knowledge of the contents of many other such collections.

In the centuries after Dogen, koan study was often prominent in Soto
Zen history. But the modes of koan practice and study promoted by
Dogen, and in much of Soto Zen until the present, differ distinctly from
the modern Rinzai koan curriculum study, which emphasizes frequent
student interviews with the teacher after intent focus on the koan as an
object of formal meditation. This Rinzai koan system had its roots in the
teachings of Dahui, a Chinese Linji/Rinzai master in the century before
Dogen. The development of this koan system, especially as it was
informed by the great seventeenth-century Rinzai master Hakuin, has
often been seen in the West today, mistakenly, as the definition and limit
of “koan practice.” This has led to the erroneous belief that Dogen, or
Soto generally, does not use koan practice. Steven Heine’s excellent
detailed study, Dogen and the Koan Tradition, clearly elaborates the varying
modes of koan study and praxis employed by Dogen, as opposed to
the Rinzai approach.

Generally a koan—the word means “public case”—is a teaching story
primarily based on a dialogue or some other encounter between a teacher
and a student. The classic koan stories go back to the genres of the lamp
transmission anthology and the recorded sayings (Ch.: yulu; Jpn.: goroku),
mostly from the great masters of the Chinese Tang dynasty (608–907).
Many of these recorded sayings of individual masters were not actually
compiled until early in the Song dynasty (960–1278), which has led many
modern scholars to question their historical reliability. However, given
the strong monastic culture of memorization and oral transmission, we
cannot say definitively whether or not these stories are historically reliable.
But they have unquestionably served as useful tools for the realization of
awakening truth and spiritual development by generations of monks and
seekers throughout the past millennium.

…

In Eihei Koroku, Dogen follows and expands upon many traditional
modes of koan commentary. Volume 9, ninety koans selected by Dogen
with his own added verse comments, usually only four lines, features a
traditional poetic mode of commentary, patterned after the core of the
Blue Cliff Record and also followed in the Book of Serenity anthology.
This collection in Eihei Koroku, volume 9, is one of Dogen’s important
early efforts at koan commentary. Of course the many essays in Shobogenzo,
often with elaborated thematic responses to specific koans, display
one of Dogen’s distinctive approaches and major contributions to
koan commentary. ...

Informal meeting 9 features line-by-line interjected brief responses by
Dogen on Zhaozhou’s koan “The cypress tree in the garden.” This was
Zhaozhou’s response to a monk who asked what Buddha is. This case is
also cited by Dogen in his Dharma hall discourses 433 and 488. Such interlinear
commentary is a mode Dogen here adopts from similar responses
to the cases and primary verse commentaries in the Blue Cliff Record. In
the Dharma hall discourses, Dogen uses various other modes of comment
on this koan. In discourse 433 he praises Zhaozhou and questions his own
monks’ understanding; then, after a pause, he gives a poetic “capping
phrase,” another traditional mode of response to koans. In discourse 488
Dogen takes the same story and sharply criticizes common misunderstandings
of it, then offers the responses that he, Dogen, would give at
each part of the dialogue were he in the story, another traditional mode
of koan response from the Chinese Dharma hall discourses. This ends
with Dogen giving his own final response in the form of a four-line verse
comment, thereby mixing modes of commentary. In all these ways and
more, Dogen plays with these traditional Zen stories to bring forth fresh
teaching and enlivening awareness for his students.

One difference between Dogen’s use of koan study and a stereotypical
modern view of koan practice can be found in his critique of kensho as a
goal. This term, which means “seeing the nature,” has been understood
at times to refer to an opening experience of attainment of realization,
going beyond conceptual thinking. Dogen believes that this is a dualistic
misunderstanding and such experiences are not to be emphasized. For
Dogen, Buddha nature is not an object to merely see or acquire, but a
mode of being that must be actually lived and expressed. All realizations
or understandings, even those from Dogen’s own comments, must be let
go, as he stresses to a student in Dharma word 4: “If you hold on to a single
word or half a phrase of the buddha ancestors’ sayings or of the koans
from the ancestral gate, they will become dangerous poisons. If you want
to understand this mountain monk’s activity, do not remember these
comments. Truly avoid being caught up in thinking.”

Unlike in the formal Rinzai curriculum, or the koan study of Dahui,
Dogen does not explicitly recommend the koan stories as objects of formal
meditation, but offers them for general contemplation and intent
study. For example, in the last Dharma word, 14, Dogen says: “When
you meet a teacher, first ask for one case of a [koan] story, and just keep
it in mind and study it diligently…. Now I see worldly people who visit
and practice with teachers, and before clarifying one question, assertively
enjoy bringing up other stories. They withdraw from the discussion as if
they understand, but are close-mouthed and cannot speak. They have not
yet explained one third of the story, so how will we see a complete saying?”

In addition to study of the traditional koan stories, in Eihei Koroku
Dogen also emphasizes the approach of genjokoan, “full manifestation of
ultimate reality,” or attention to the koans manifesting in everyday activity.
In this approach, each everyday phenomenon or challenge arising
before us can be intently engaged, to be realized and fully expressed. “Genjokoan”
is the name of one of Dogen’s most famous essays, now thought
of as part of Shobogenzo. But he uses this term and expresses this
approach elsewhere in his writings, including in Eihei Koroku. For example,
in Dharma hall discourse 60 Dogen says: “Everybody should just
wholeheartedly engage in this genjokoan.What is this genjokoan? It is just
all buddhas in the ten directions and all ancestors, ancient and present,
and it is fully manifesting right now. Do you all see it? It is just
our…getting up and getting down from the sitting platform.”

...

[Jundo]

When I read that passage about worldly dharmas and Buddhadharma, I was reminded of something Brad Warner (in Chapter 15 of Don't Be A Jerk, "Hearing Weird Stuff Late at Night") writes about Dogen writing about. To quote Warner: "[Dogen] believed that nature could often explain the dharma to people better than people could explain it to each other through words."

Like FaithMoon, when reading the main case, I also thought of the the simile of the raft. For those unfamiliar with it, here it is from the Alagaddupama Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html), which concerns how one should relate to the Buddhadharma. The first speaker here is the Buddha. The translation is by Thanissaro Bhikkhu:

Sorry, it will be a day for long cut and pastes and Dogen quotes. :)

Some Dogenologists have pointed out that Dogen's view of constant "Practice-Enlightenment" implies that the raft is never put down ... all while also simulataneously (:p) it arrives and arrives constantly at the "other shore" (even while still on this shore and mid-river! [scared]). Here is from an older post:

==============

A traditional Buddhist image is that one wishes to cross the river or ocean on a raft of Practice to get from this shore of "ignorance" to the other shore of "enlightenment".

But Master Dogen has a rather interesting view on such. He pointed out that this side of the water, the middle of the water and the other shore are all the water, Buddha ... that the whole voyage of beginning middle and end is arriving at Buddha ... and that one never should put down the raft of Practice even when reaching the other shore!

Dogen wrote ...


The principle of zazen in other schools is to wait for enlightenment. For example, to practice is like crossing over a great ocean on a raft, thinking that having crossed the ocean one should discard the raft. The zazen of Buddha-ancestors is not like this, but is simply Buddha’s practice. We could say that the situation of Buddha’s house is the one in which the essence, practice, and expounding are one and the same. (Eihei Koroku, vol. 8:11)

Taigen Dan Leighton puts it this way ...


In many traditional branches of Buddhism, meditation practice may eventually lead to enlightenment. Dogen states that some people even practice "like having crossed over a great ocean on a raft, thinking that upon crossing the ocean one should discard the raft. The zazen of our Buddha ancestors is not like this, but is simply Buddha's practice." In this common Buddhist simile of the raft, once one reaches the other shore of liberation the raft (e.g. of meditative practice) is no longer needed. But Dogen implies that the practitioner should continue to carry the raft, even while trudging up into the mountains or down into the marketplace.

For Dogen zazen is not waiting for enlightenment, but simply the practice of buddhas. This practice is not to acquire something in some other time, or in another state of consciousness or being. It is actually the practice of enlightenment or realization right now.
http://www.ancientdragon.org/dharma/articles/zazen_as_enactment_ritual

and


I think we easily tend to think that this practice eventually may be something like, if I wait long enough, I'll be enlightened. If I put enough hours into sitting on this cushion, or enough lifetimes, some day, somewhere, when you least expect it, there it will be, the big Enlightenment.

So he says: "The principle of zazen in other schools is to wait for enlightenment."

In many branches of Buddhism you may hear about practicing and eventually reaching enlightenment. But here Dogen criticizes that. He says, for example, some people practice like having crossed over a great ocean on a raft, thinking that upon crossing the ocean one should discard the raft. That's very sensible, right? Maybe some of you have heard this simile of the raft, that once we reach the other shore we don't need the raft any more. But actually Dogen says to please carry the raft with you, as you trudge up into the mountains.

The zazen of our Buddha ancestors is not like waiting for enlightenment, but is simply Buddha's practice.

So this practice we do is not practice to get something, some so-called enlightenment somewhere else, in some other time, in some other state of mind. This is not practice to get higher, or reach some other state of consciousness or being. This is actually the practice of our enlightenment and realization right now. And enlightenment and realization, naturally, leads to practice. There is no enlightenment that is not actually put into practice. Then it would just be some idea of enlightenment; it wouldn't be the actual enlightenment. So each of you is practicing your realization right now. Each of you is realizing your practice right now. This is simply Buddha's practice.

http://www.ancientdragon.org/dharma/dharma_talks/practice_realization_expression

Rev. Kenshu Sugawara writes ...


[I]n Fukanzazengi Zen Master Dogen points out the example of Shakyamuni Buddha who sat upright zazen for six years, although he was wise enough to know the Buddha Dharma at birth. He also mentions Bodhidharma, who sat facing a wall for nine years after coming to China though he had already attained the mind-seal. Dogen stresses that Buddha-ancestors do not practice zazen as a means to an end.

Therefore, as is said in Gakudo Yojinshu, “Realization lies in practice.” Enlightenment is clearly manifested in the Buddha-ancestors’ zazen. In the same vein, in Bendowa Zen Master Dogen wrote, “To suppose that practice and realization are not one is a view of those outside the way. In Buddha Dharma they are inseparable.” He states that when instructing beginners we must teach them not to expect realization outside of practice. Practice is the immediate, original realization. The practice of beginner’s mind is itself the entire original realization. ...

In other schools zazen is a means to gain enlightenment. Like a raft, it is no longer useful when the goal is achieved. Some people boast about their experiences of great enlightenment and kensho. If their zazen practice regresses because of such an experience, that experience is nothing but a delusion that becomes a hindrance to the continuation of practice.

Zen Master Dogen says that the zazen of the Buddha-ancestors is Buddha’s practice. It is a very simple and plain practice of just continuing to sit, letting go of our views. Such zazen embodies the “situation of Buddha’s house” in which the essence (foundation/enlightenment), expounding (explaining the Dharma) and practice are one and the same. Therefore, there is no need to seek the Buddha outside zazen. Zazen is not a practice that produces a Buddha-ancestor but an action causing the Buddha-ancestors to live as Buddha-ancestors. The Buddha-ancestors are beings who have already clarified all kinds of enlightenment and psychological states. They have nothing more to gain, nothing more to realize. When zazen is valued as a practice performed by those Buddha-ancestors, the content of that zazen is called “nothing to attain nothing to enlighten” (Shobogenzo Zuimonki , book 6).

When there is nothing to be gained, nothing to be realized, sitting zazen is “body-mind dropping off (shinjin datsuraku).” Body-mind dropping off is not a wonderful psychological state to be gained as a result of sitting zazen. Rather, zazen itself is nothing but “body-mind dropping off.” It is to escape all kinds of clinging. When we sit zazen, our body-mind naturally drops off and the true Dharma manifests.
http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/key_terms/pdf/key_terms01.pdf

So, what raft? No raft! Ever raft! Sail on!

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jakuden]

gassho1
Thank you Jundo! So much to learn!

I was being a little facetious about the "Zen Eye" thing. Am far from being a master chef, but content to be in cooking school.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Geika]

Thank you Jundo, a lot to drop and/ or carry up the mountain today.

Gassho, sat today

[Kaishin]

Will sit with it

-satToday

[Jwroberts27]

Thank you all for a stimulating conversation.

I'm reminded of a line in one of Ryokan's poems that goes something like, "unless you got lost on purpose, you would never get this far". I see this as related to the koan in topic.

The implication is that there is an ongoing path of (non)discovery: of intuiting buddhanature, rather than conceptualizing it. Like Buddha and Bodhidharma who sat after awakening, they utilized their vehicle (meditation) to manifest this intuition. The point is you never arrive at the other shore, because to arrive there is to conceptualize it as something separate from yourself, which it cannot be. This is why ongoing practice is important. The moment we say to ourselves that we reached a point in our understanding, we have demonstrated that we are deluding ourselves. You have to keep getting lost on purpose, by decentering your perceived understanding, with ongoing practice. As one of our four vows states, "I vow to transform all delusions, though delusions inexhaustible".

There is no coming or going because everything is in flux. WE are not products, but processes of transformation. This seems to me to be the nature of ongoing transformation: worldly dharma (the practice of zen) enlightens, but recognizing this "enlightenment" is buddhadharma's delusion. And so we get back into our vehicle on our way to noplace (buddhadharma in performance, rather than as a representation of something outside us).

At this point in my (representational) understanding I would have to say, I got here by worldly dharma.
Q: Where did you park your car?
A: Who said I ever turned off the ignition and got out?

Gassho

Sat Today

*Apologies, I don't have the complete case 51, since I am waiting on my copy in the mail.

[Kotei]

Thank you,

more, and less to think, than I thought.

Will not write window above my windows, it would confuse my cats, they think it's a door.

Gassho,
Kotei sattoday.

[Toun]

Great comments and a lot of insight.

As I read the koan I tried to make sense of it by using "pure logic" and that's when things started to get a little rough for me. I guess you have to approach this sort of thing with the "heart" and just let the words and images speak to you. I find that it might be resonating with me on a deeper or more subtle level which goes beyond the senses...but then again I might be wrong!

Time to just sit with it.

Gassho
Mike

Sat today

[Jika]

Will not write window above my windows, it would confuse my cats, they think it's a door.
[claps]

Gassho
Jika
#sattoday

[Marco]

After reading through the koan and notes a few times, a particular thought kept coming up for me. As I mentioned earlier, this is my first koan, and I feel like I am missing the mark hear. Nevertheless, here is what came up for me.

As an art student, I remember the emphasis placed on seeing the actual color of things. A task that, on the surface, seemed simple. However, it turned out to be very difficult. Here is how you can test this for yourself: Wherever you are, look at spot on an object, and decide on the color you think it is. Next, cup your hand into a circle, leaving just enough of a hole in the middle so you can peak through it. Now, look at the spot you previously picked through the hole in your hand. Most likely, you will find that the color is different than what you thought it was. For most of us, we tend to see color by what we think it is, rather than what it is. For example, we may know that couch is a greyish blue color (that’s what it said on the tag when we bought it!) so, when we look at it we think “bluish grey”. In reality however, the color of the couch is dependent on the environment in which it sits: is it sunny? Is there a warm yellow light in the room? Is there a red pillow on the couch? All of these things affect its actual color at this moment (as we perceive it). Even though I know this, I still get caught by this ‘illusion’ when I’m painting. I think most of our lives are like this; more often than not, we are viewing the world based on what we project on it, not what it is. So, for my novice mind, the window is the window in my mind (not the window) – the door, is the door in my mind (not the door).

Gassho,
Marco

[Jundo]

... The point is you never arrive at the other shore, because to arrive there is to conceptualize it as something separate from yourself, which it cannot be. This is why ongoing practice is important. The moment we say to ourselves that we reached a point in our understanding, we have demonstrated that we are deluding ourselves. You have to keep getting lost on purpose, by decentering your perceived understanding, with ongoing practice. As one of our four vows states, "I vow to transform all delusions, though delusions inexhaustible".

There is no coming or going because everything is in flux. WE are not products, but processes of transformation. This seems to me to be the nature of ongoing transformation: worldly dharma (the practice of zen) enlightens, but recognizing this "enlightenment" is buddhadharma's delusion. And so we get back into our vehicle on our way to noplace (buddhadharma in performance, rather than as a representation of something outside us).



Hmmmm. This resonates for me. Perhaps we may say that life is constant change, moving on and getting lost, for without such the world would be frozen, lifeless and stagnant. Yet, through this Practice we realize such which is beyond all change, always at home, cannot be lost. All at once. Nonetheless, although we can never be "lost" (in a Buddha Eye) even when "lost", we do our best in each choice of word, thought and act not to wander off into life's poison ivy of greed, anger and divisive thoughts in ignorance.

Dogen also said, “There is the principle of the Way that we must make one mistake after another” (Eihei Koroku, Dogen’s Extensive Record, p. 132). Get up and sometimes fall. Yet through this Practice we realize too that no "mistake" was ever possible, all the ups and downs each shine in their way, and there was no place to fall. All at once. Nonetheless, we do our best not to make mistakes in life, stumble and fall.

This is how I express "Practice-Enlightenment", and why we never put the raft down, even though there was no raft or river from the outset.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[John Mac]

Hi,

I've thought about this one, and sat with it this morning, to me it seems to be about the nature of arriving or being. How did you get here? ...my answer would be 'I've always been here', maybe I haven't realised, but I've always 'been' or to put it another way, I 'am'. Anything more is description of a process. Is it a very deceptively simple thing to recognise that all there is is to be and that outside of that there are only constructions? .....Maybe I'm looking to deep, I don't know. ...

[Kokuu]

Q: Where did you park your car?
A: Who said I ever turned off the ignition and got out?

gassho2

[FaithMoon]

I'm envisioning the Book of Equanimity as a fleet of 100 rafts!

FaithMoon
st

[Kotei]

Each time, I read this case, it seems to throw light on something different.

Today, it seems to tell me about "taking the middle way".
Worldly dharma and buddha dharma, becoming one. No total enlightenment, no total delusion.
Talking about one and asking about the other... The answer is not to be found in just one.

Gassho,
Kotei sattoday.

[Jwroberts27]

Yet, through this Practice we realize such which is beyond all change, always at home, cannot be lost. All at once. Nonetheless, although we can never be "lost" (in a Buddha Eye) even when "lost", we do our best in each choice of word, thought and act not to wander off into life's poison ivy of greed, anger and divisive thoughts in ignorance.

Dogen also said, “There is the principle of the Way that we must make one mistake after another” (Eihei Koroku, Dogen’s Extensive Record, p. 132). Get up and sometimes fall. Yet through this Practice we realize too that no "mistake" was ever possible, all the ups and downs each shine in their way, and there was no place to fall. All at once. Nonetheless, we do our best not to make mistakes in life, stumble and fall.

This is how I express "Practice-Enlightenment", and why we never put the raft down, even though there was no raft or river from the outset.

Gassho, J

SatToday

Thank you very much, Jundo for your response. Perhaps then it can be said that you never arrive at the other shore, since you have always been on the other shore, despite perceived short-comings. The term "Practice-Enlightenment" really drives home what I am getting at. Not to get too bogged down in concepts and language, but I think "Practice" seems to be taking on two meanings: 1. Worldly action taken towards enlightenment, i.e., acting with wisdom and right seeing (mediation in the general sense of living life with awareness), and 2. as synonymous with "enlightenment", that is, such practice is not separate from "enlightened" action, or the non-river that is always flowing and in flux.

Could we say that Practice (1) (cultivating self-awareness) is the reminder of Practice (2) (thusness)? There was never someplace to go, since we have always been there/here. Still, we lose sight of this truth, and this is the reason to continue cultivating. We can say then, practice is just practice. We are not striving to understand something, since actually, we already understand it/and live it. We are just clearing the weeds in the lawn, so that we don't trip and fall over a sprinkler, cause that sucks...though that is part of life too.

But perhaps this maintenance metaphor is too simplistic?

Gassho,
John

SatToday

[John Mac]

Good morning friends,

In the course of contemplating this Koan, I was struck by this from Master Dogen, it seems particularly relevant.

'But do not ask me where I am going, as I travel in this limitless world,
Where every step I take is my home ' ~ Dogen.

[Ongen]

Hi all :)

DOES THE ZENNY LOGIC OF WHAT I DESCRIBE SEEM CLEAR OR CONFUSING TO YOU?

Yes it does :p

I am quite sure that Hogen was right when he said that stuff about the boat being in the river, the river being the river and the boat being the boat, there really is no other place it can be in.
I don't know about that Zen Eye though. It seems to me the boat being in the river is more reasonable than someone having some kind of Zen Eye.

HOW MIGHT IT HELP US LIVE OUR LIVES FREE?

If we see that the boat is in the river, we also see that our lives are nothing else than free. This reminds me of the story about Dogen who just returned from China and some fellow buddhists come to him and ask him what he learned there, and he answers them "I learned that my nose is vertical and my eyes are horizontal."

Gassho
Ongen

Sat Today

[Tairin]

I've been thinking about this one for the past 10 days and I keep coming back to this....

Does it matter how I came here (by land or by water)? i am here now. Turns out I have always been here, although like everyone getting here has been a journey. My journey to get here (by boat) is something I now need to leave behind me (not become attached to). I am here.

Gassho
Warren
sat today

[FaithMoon]

If you want to hear Maezumi Roshi's teisho on the cases in the Book of Equanimity, you can buy a (fairly) complete set of talks on a USB drive from here:

http://www.zencenter.com/Store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=12&products_id=37

Maezumi Roshi was Shishin Wick's teacher. To locate this particular case in the archive, you would search for Shoyo Roku 51. (The Book of Equanimity is also known as the Shoyo Roku.)