multicultural Zen

[Sozan]

Treeleaf Sangha is a multicultural Zen Buddhist Community in which people of all socio-economic classes, nationalities, races, ages, creeds, genders, sexual orientation and identification, and physical abilities discover shared humanity by direct experience of one anothers’ lives. We are open to all. We commit ourselves to cultivating a practice in diversity and multiculturalism by incorporating into our practice the dissolving of all barriers that perpetuate the suffering of separation, prejudice, and discrimination. We intend to expand and develop our awareness of the ways we are conditioned to separate ourselves by socioeconomic class, nationality, race, age, creed, gender, sexual orientation, physical ability and other forms of identity.

I wonder why, in light of this mission statement on the Home page, we continue with so many Japanese forms. Even as calcified an organization as the Roman Catholic Church, shed Latin in its litergy long ago. Any thoughts?

Gassho,
Sozan

s@2day

[Geika]

Because Soto style Zen Buddhism is from Japan, and after a certain point of taking practices away, you no longer have Soto style practice.

I should also add that we DO chant in English. Most American Sanghas I know of chant in Japanese. I would say that's one of the ways we make it contemporary.

Gassho, sat today

[Byrne]

There are many Japanese style things at Treeleaf. There are infinitely more personal choices at Treeleaf. Jundo has maintained a very firm but open minded perspective on these matters, and that open mindedness (or more complete perspective) is freely offered as well.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Risho]

Man it sounds like a damned lawyer wrote that mission statement :p lol

I feel what you are saying; the way in which soto zen expresses itself has japanese tints to it because its japanese lol

At the same time its very relevant to all cultures and is American, Mexican, Swedish, etc. Im not into cultural mimicry either; Ive also always have had a love affair with Japanese culture but thats another story.

That being said were here, all of us, to practice zen. And its all of our responsibility to make it relevant in our lives. Now I mean if you dont like zen then its not but I mean if youve taken the precepts then its really up to you to live this practice. And even the Buddha said that each of us need to do this; we have to investigate these things for ourselves.

Im not a big fan of all cultural traditions but if you think about the Buddhist teachings from India, China, kKorea Vietnam, japan, America and countless other places where Zen and Buddhism has planted roots, the dharma or discoveries are culturally agnostic. They are at the same time of a specific time and place but also express a timeless feature or features of being human.

On one hand for example the bodhisattva vows sprung forth out of Huineng's culture, cultural attitude on zen, but to say that those vows are too Chinese is ludicrous- if you get to the heart of what they are saying.

You could say well its all cultural trapping except for sitting but seated meditation is from the BC/BCE days (for the whole foods crowd -just kidding) so why not get rid of that too. Its anextreme example but my point (and to echo Jundo) is that you dont want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

At the same time what you are pointing to is internalizing this, making this practice your own and that is important.

I think we are pioneers to some extent. Buddhism is new to the West, historically speaking. I think the more it sticks around the more westernized it will become, but we have to allow that to happen naturally, allow it to bloom while being careful not to trim away too much too soon.

Again I think we are pioneers and in a very advantageous position in the West because this is a Judeo Christian culture so to really practice here we need to come to terms with what our practice means to us. At the same time I think we find many challenges finding our groove in practice that fits with our cultural viewpoint. Sometimes I get frustrated like I dont get this! But thats the challenge; bringing this to fruition in my life is absolutely a challenge but when I get frustrated or feel like I cant relate to certain practices I think about what brings me here, what things do resonate, are helpful; why do I practice?

Ive had so many times Ive felt like quitting but Ive read that this is something that practitioners face. You just dont feel like sitting anymore and thats fine; just go sit. When things seem foreign or discouraging the basics bring me back and inspire me: the four noble truths/tasks, the precepts, genjokoan, etc

Although these discoveries come from different times and cultures they hit to the core of the human experience. I think the more I hang around the less and less esoteric and more meaningful things become but I really really understand where you are coming from

Gassho

Risho
-sattoday

[Jundo]

Ah ... another chance to repost the "Turning Japanese" essay ... (It even mentions Oryoki in there and we will be restarting that beautiful art soon) ...


======================================

This practice is not limited to any place or time ... we drop all thought of place and time. It certainly is not Indian, Chinese, Japanese, French or American. But, of course, we live in place and time, so as Buddhism traveled over the centuries from India to China, Japan, Korea and other places, it naturally became very Indian/Chinese/Japanese/Korean etc.

But what of the cultural trappings?

Must we bow, ring bells, chant (in Japanese, no less), wear traditional robes, have Buddha Statues, burn incense? ... All that stuff besides Zazen. Are they necessary to our Practice?


No, not at all!


We don't need anything other than Zazen, any of those trappings. In fact, they are no big deal, of no importance, when we drop all viewpoints in sitting Zazen.

On the other hand, we have to do something, to greet each other somehow, read some words, dress some way. Why not do such things? As I often say, for example, we have to do something with our hands when practicing walking Zazen ... why not hold them in Shashu (I mean, better than sticking 'em in your pockets)? What is more, wearing certain special clothes and holding one's hands with a certain formality, placing a statue and burning incense can all work as points of focus to remind us of the specialness of this moment and Practice (no problem so long as we also learn the lesson that all the so-called "mundane" instants of life, great and small, are special moments, each a "sacred ceremony" in its way, from taking a bath to making a peanut butter sandwich for the kids).

As well, there are parts of our practice which we do BECAUSE we resist (for example, when visiting a temple for Retreat, I usually put my heart fully into ceremonies and arcane rituals BECAUSE I resist and think some of it silly or old fashioned). Ask yourself where that kind of resistance is to be found (here's a clue, and it is right behind your own eyes).

What is more, there is method to the madness, and many (not all) customs have centuries of time tested benefits ... embody subtle perspectives ... that support and nurture Zazen Practice at the core. Many parts of our Practice, though "exotic", are worth keeping, even if they strike someone as strange at first. Bowing, statues, rigid decorum in the Zen Hall and, yes, weird talks about Koans and arcane ceremonies all fit in that category. They may seem like unnecessary "Japanese" or "Esoteric" elements at first, until you understand the role they serve. I have given talks on all these things recently, for example ... the humility and wholeness of Bowing.

Many aspects of tradition can be seen in new ways when the barriers of the mind are knocked down. Thus, for example, the Kesa, the Buddha's Robes ... though just cloth ... can be seen to cover and enfold the whole universe, laughter, cries of pain, old age, becoming and fading away ... life ...

On the other hand again, it is okay to abandon or reject many practices. However, KNOW very well what you are rejecting before you reject it.

Absorb what is useful and discard the rest. For example, I think Oryoki [formal meal ritual] is a great practice (on pouring onself in all to find oneself), and worth keeping ... Same for bowing.

When tasted as such ... every action and gesture in this life is Sacred and Magical when experienced as such, from changing a baby diaper to cooking dinner to chanting the Heart Sutra. So, why not Chant as well as the rest?

Many ways could be substituted and provide much the same ... for example, one can lose and find oneself in Square Dancing or Pizza baking or shoe polishing, and encounter much the same sacred feel, if approaching each with the correct Zenny mindset I suppose (should we create a Treeleaf Dharma Square Dance Pizza Baking Shoe Polishing Group?)

Some things I keep out of respect for TRADITION [the robes, the ways of doing some ceremonies]. It is important to keep ties to where we come from. Some things also have a special symbolic meaning if you look into them, so worth keeping [for example, a Rakusu]

But other stuff, no need to keep: For example, I usually avoid to chant in Japanese or Chinese [except once in awhile, out of respect for tradition]. Tatami mats and Paper screens have nothing to do with Zen practice particularly magico-supersticio hocus-pocus bunkum[/i], the equal place of women ... heck, the use of the internet to bring teachings that were once the preserve of an elite few into everyone's living room.Those are good and great changes to the outer wrapping (you can read about them in books like this one (author interview here: http://atheism.about.com/library/books/chats/bl_ColemanChat.htm). The coreless core, however, remains unchanged.

[b]Do not throw out the Baby Buddha with the bath water. Many completely "Japanese" practices which seem silly at first are worth keeping. ...

... other things, like some of the arcane incense, bell & drum filled rituals, take 'em or leave 'em.

(that being said ... many a Soto Priest will testify to the power of those incense, bell and drum filled rituals ... )




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgekmOqCFTU

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Anshu Bryson]

I wonder why, in light of this mission statement on the Home page, we continue with so many Japanese forms. Even as calcified an organization as the Roman Catholic Church, shed Latin in its litergy long ago. Any thoughts?

Gassho,
Sozan

s@2day

Regarding the language of liturgy, when we chant a sutra 'in Japanese', we're not actually chanting in 'Japanese' at all, but are chanting using a Japanese reading of Chinese characters, with no associated Japanese 'grammar' in between... So, the Japanese have not even translated the sutras into Japanese yet (!), but we seem to be in a hurry to have English versions of everything. While it is (of course!) helpful to actually know what you are reading/chanting (!), I am happy to chant the Sino-Japanese version knowing that I understand the 'story' in my own language. In light of 'multiculturalism', if I chant in English, non-English speakers won't know what I'm saying. Having one 'common language' is actually helpful in this case...

Using the traditional forms actually allows for more than just English speakers to become involved. Using a sporting analogy, baseball terms in Japan are largely English; it is the 'common language' of that sport. I am a karate practitioner, we use Japanese terminology so that everyone knows what everyone else is talking about. It is simply the lingua franca of that practice worldwide.

While the Church indeed did away with Latin, it did not do this overnight. Zen is still in its 'early days' in the West. Originally, the use of Latin in the Church kept knowledge and understanding within a small power group. I think that we can be confident nowadays with Zen practice that, regardless of the language of our liturgy, the meaning is freely available in most languages. As Jundo suggests above, changes will necessarily be gradual and must be organic rather than forced.

Some wise words on this from Okumura Shohaku Roshi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMtb_T5cq_U

Gassho,
Anshu

-sat today-

[Sozan]

Thank you all for your insights. My question was regarding form, not content. Ritual can be important to lead us into a 'sacred' place to aid our practice. This may be more important for us, as we have no communal brick and mortar palce to do that. I guess I can wait for the change in forms. Just not that important.

Deep Bows to all.
Gassho,
Sozan

s@2day

[Washin]

Ive had so many times Ive felt like quitting but Ive read that this is something that practitioners face. You just dont feel like sitting anymore and thats fine; just go sit. When things seem foreign or discouraging the basics bring me back and inspire me: the four noble truths/tasks, the precepts, genjokoan, etc
Thank you. gassho2 Same here.

Gassho
Washin
sat-today

[Jundo]

I like Sozan's wait and see attitude about what Zen will become in the West. Every Buddhist Sangha in the West is an experiment in trying to answer that question, from those who maintain very closely the ways of Asia (sometimes more than even they do in Asia!!), to those who strip it all away. Let's see what happens.

A funny thing is that I sometimes get comments that we at Treeleaf are too Japanese, but at other times I get comments that we are not Japanese enough! (Mr. K. has said that to me a few times recently and implied that only Japanese people truly understand this stuff. Hmmm. ). Some say we chant in Chinese-Japanese too much, some want more ... some want more t-shirts, some want more robes. Sometimes traditional Buddhists comments that this place is way too liberal, with our de-emphasis of certain rituals, mythic beliefs and doctrines such as the mechanical workings of Karma and extremely specific descriptions of post-mortum rebirth as found in some corners of traditional Buddhism. Other folks tell me that we are much too traditional and conservative for their taste.

Can't win sometimes (beyond all "win" and "loss" of course). We catch it from all sides in the ten directions! [monk]

As my above "Turning Japanese" essay shows by its ambiguity, nothing is completely worthless or defensible or "one size fits all" and even the most obscure beliefs and rituals have great meaning and power in some ways to somebody.

Losing our Japaneseness is not all a good thing. If I may compare Japanese Zen to the martial arts, this is a video of our Yugen's karate Sensei from Japan (Okinawa actually, Japan but not) ... what grace, power in his traditional forms ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXGh7ltxuyI

Well, if we Westernize too fast, maybe we will end up with the Zen equivalent of this: :crushed: Perhaps these guys (women too) win in brute killing efficiency, but something tells me that the philosophy of the martial arts has been lost.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe2YF56JklQ

Gassho, J

PS - More about Yugen's Karate here. I believe he is now 8th Dan in that school, one of their main teachers in America.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12781-Congratulations-to-Yugen-Promoted-to-7th-Dan-Black-Belt-in-Uechi-Ryu-Karate-Do

[Risho]

The martial arts analogy is spot on! You sort of want both - you want the reverence for life, the no-mind, the focus, discipline, ethics, but you also need the ability to kick ass when you have to but only in defense.

I've always loved Chuck Norris because you know he's a badass but he's a corny good guy. lol

It also reminds me of the phenomenal trilogy: called "The Samurai Trilogy" with Toshiro Mifune. If you've never seen Toshiro Mifune you've never seen a samurai movie. He starts out with a lot of fighting spirit, but he ends up just being a full bodhisattva, a full human being. It's a brilliant film.

Also, side note, Zatoichi - The Blind Swordsman (with Takeshi Kitano) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0363226/) is another phenomenal, phenomenal movie that's in this vein of complete martial art badass but not brute. I guess there are a lot of these Zatoichi movies, but I've only seen the most recent one (I'm aware of in the States). But this movie is just so good, so good.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Nindo]

BTW - The Catholic church has not entirely mothballed the Latin liturgy. Masses are still being sung or read in Latin. It happens to be the language great music was composed to, and I was lucky enough to regularly sing Latin choir masses for a few years in a major European cathedral. Latin is also still used in the monastic liturgy, and for special occasions in "regular" church. It is also the common ground for the international church. When my small hometown parish had visitors from the French partnership town, the mass was read in Latin, because that's what everybody could follow more or less.

Gassho
Nindo

[Jishin]

I wonder why, in light of this mission statement on the Home page, we continue with so many Japanese forms. Even as calcified an organization as the Roman Catholic Church, shed Latin in its litergy long ago. Any thoughts?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastical_Latin

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/07/nyregion/07latin.html

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Yugen]

Hi all,
Jundo, thank you for the martial arts angle- I'm a bit red faced from the exposure, but thank you.

Toyama Sensei's form is lovely - so eloquent yet simple. He practiced into his early 80s and only recently passed. A remarkably humble and quiet man, yet his form was confident and realized, not arrogant or large.

The purpose of a belt is to hold up your trousers. Karate like zen is "good for nothing!"

Deep bows
Yugen


sat2day

[Rich]

The Zen tradition comes from China, Korea and Japan. Now it's becoming World Zen. Or maybe Earth Zen. I think unless you strip it down to the basics, it won't take off. For me the basics are sitting, bowing and chanting. The basic liturgy would be the heart and diamond sutras.

SAT today

[Jishin]

For me the basics are sitting... The basic liturgy would be the heart and diamond sutras.



gassho2

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Kaishin]

Treeleaf will (hopefully!) continue long after Jundo is gone (sorry that's morbid :D ). It will be interesting to see how and where our (hopefully many!) novices lead us. Perhaps some will go even more traditional, while others will go the very stripped-down route of Joko Beck.

Let's watch and see... [claps]

-satToday

[Sozan]

BTW - The Catholic church has not entirely mothballed the Latin liturgy. Masses are still being sung or read in Latin. It happens to be the language great music was composed to, and I was lucky enough to regularly sing Latin choir masses for a few years in a major European cathedral

Hi Nindo,

The old Latin hymns are beautiful. My Dad sang in choir for years when I was a kid. They used Gregorian Chant for mass. Even as a kid it took me to a sacred place, still does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ElL8hdQD_4
Happy memories.
Gassho,
Sozan

s@2day

[Byrne]

Gregorian chant. The basis for all western harmony. The fundamental melodies, stacked atop each other to form chords. My mom used to play that stuff around the house at Christmas. It depresses the hell out of me.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Jundo]

The Zen tradition comes from China, Korea and Japan. Now it's becoming World Zen. Or maybe Earth Zen. I think unless you strip it down to the basics, it won't take off. For me the basics are sitting, bowing and chanting. The basic liturgy would be the heart and diamond sutras.

SAT today

I agree! That's about all that is needed, and all that holds the whole world.

And yet ... Oryoki is a powerful practice, the bells keep time, the incense transports us, honoring our Asian "roots" and remembering our long dead ancestors keeps us connected to the family, those weird Koan stories about dead Chinese guys have a point, the Kesa is a symbol of the symbolless ... Bodhisattva Vows keep us in a good direction for All Sentient Beings, the Verse of Atonement washes us clean ... sewing is a powerful practice in non-attaining ... Metta open our hearts to others ...

Once you strip down to "bare bones" you have to start asking what is worthwhile to add back.

Plus, I have a couple of Tibetan Buddhist friends (and Soto Zen priests too really into the pomp and ceremony) who will say that, for them, all the arcane ceremony, semi-magical rituals, magical figures and wild beliefs all really speak to the heart too. It may not be your or my cup of tea, but some folks really digg it. Speaking of "earth Zen," when I was staying at a traditional Soto monastery in Japan for a few days, they did a complicated ceremony to appease the "earth spirits" of the place where the monastery is located. Here is a taste (and I emphasize that this is a traditional Soto Zen ceremony):


Two people in top places (closest to altar) together bow with gassho in concert with sounding of cymbals {meihatsu 鳴鈸}, and in tandem advance to altar and burn incense, return to places. In general, procedure is for those who leave ranks to advance with folded hands {shashu shinzen 叉手進前} and return to places in gassho {gasshô ki i 合掌帰位}. ...

http://terebess.hu/zen/szoto/cymballs.jpg
(cymbals)

...
When leaving ranks and burning incense is finished, rector again advances before earth spirit, picks up recitations text {nenju mon 念誦文}, censes it with incense smoke, raises it respectfully with both hands {hôji 捧持}, returns to place, initiates recitations.

Recitation Text {nenju mon 念誦文}
[Spring] We are keenly aware that the spring winds fan the plains, that the green emperor rules in every direction, and that the period of winter is now at an end. Spring has come again, arriving as it should in the natural scheme of things. Throughout the winter our practice has been without hindrance, and the entire assembly has been safe. Chanting and upholding the glorious names of those possessed of myriad virtues, we respectfully repay the countless beings that support our lives.[2] I respectfully invite the venerable assembly to chant {chôsei 長声} ...

We dedicate all of the merit from the preceding recitations to the dragon spirits of the earth who are protectors of the true dharma. We humbly pray that their spiritual luminosity will aid us; that they will widely extend their beneficial protection; that this sangha shall flourish; and that they shall long confer their selfless blessings.
http://indras-net.org/?page_id=62


At first I really disliked it, felt it silly. Then I just dropped resistance, with a "when in Rome, chant as the Romans chant" attitude. Then I also felt that, whether one actually believes in "earth dragons" or not, well, it speaks to the heart. Some folks may need that too ... some folks really thrive in the power of it all and find meaning there ...

... although you won't see anything like that at Treeleaf soon. **

Gassho, J

SatToday

** For point of disclosure, once a year at New Years my family and I go to a little tiny altar in a corner of our land here in Japan which supposedly contains the "earth spirits" for our house (about a meter tall, it looks kinda like the picture). We offer water and a bow, thanks for keeping us safe. Hey, living in earthquake country, as we do, why take any chances? My philosophy about such things ... it might not help, but it sure can't hurt. :p

Anyway, my wife makes me ... and she is the god in our house who is really scary if not appeased! [evil]

http://tanuki-bayashi.com/tone-ponpokou/r_oujijinja/image/ujigami16.jpg

[Kyonin]

Hi guys,

I think it's very important for us to keep our Japanese roots as alive as we can... even if some of them are hard to understand or to incorporate into our practice. Forms and tradition are important because they connect us to our practices, help us focus in the present and they make clear to the mind that our practice is important and sacred.

The way I see things for what I have read, listened and saw in Buddhist places (at least in Mexico), is that at some extent for us westerners, Asian culture is mystic and fascinating. A lot of folks I know they feel really connected to, say, Titbet... even if they were born in Nicaragua. Their practice is sacred and they take it with such respect and joy that it's something to behold.

All things change, and Zen is no different. Buddhism has been able to survive millenia thanks that it's been able to keep tradition but at the same time, it has adapted to all cultures it has touched. And that's thanks to people willing to keep the forms, lore and traditions alive.

But I could be wrong :D

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Joyo]

The Zen tradition comes from China, Korea and Japan. Now it's becoming World Zen. Or maybe Earth Zen. I think unless you strip it down to the basics, it won't take off. For me the basics are sitting, bowing and chanting. The basic liturgy would be the heart and diamond sutras.

SAT today


Beautiful!!

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Jishin]

The Pale Blue Dot:

http://youtu.be/wupToqz1e2g

Where is Japan? Japanese culture? Zen?

:)

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Risho]

Right, the key point: it has adapted. Tradition for tradition's sake is no good. Earth gods, kitchen demons, not my cup of tea, so I'll pass. But for others, maybe they like pagan rituals, I don't know. I mean I think while it's important to honor traditions, we don't do things that people did in medieval Japan because we know better, or at least we have our own set of superstitions now. I'm just not going to bow to a kitchen god; I don't feel that has anything to do with Zen. However, if there are others who feel that way, I'm not going to rain on their parade. I think we need room to allow for both traditional and non-traditional zen practice to emerge.

I feel if Dogen wore a track suit and Adidas (a sort of Run DM-Dogen lol) all the acolytes would be wearing track suits and Adidas. Or maybe in 1200 years, people will have laptops and a buddha on their altar to honor our generation.

So from one perspective the practices seem extra, but from another perspective, wearing the rakusu and doing the other practices binds us and honors those from the past, so I don't think it's such a bad thing.

I don't have any answers, and like with most topics on this forum, I'm more confused than ever now which is good hahahah; if I was locked into a viewpoint, that would most definitely be the opposite of what Zen is trying to offer.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

Edit: It's very interesting, our interactions in these forums; I'm often going to come across as very skeptical then something that Jundo, Kyonin, Joyo, Byrne, Kaishin, Sozan (and everyone else just got lazy typing. lol) says sort of just sinks in and a new perspective activates. Like I was going to come in here "on blast" and say guys we are in the 21st century, but then what Jundo and Kyonin said sort of hit home, and when I was typing I realized what was being said, which sort of helped me to understand why we do these traditions.

I think I was going to be cynical because part of me forgot why we do this; so anyway, thank you for this post Sozan. This is something near and dear to my heart, and thank you all for your responses; these damned posts are just so good sometimes; they really help me to clarify and strengthen my practice.

Ok, enough corny, now back to cynicism. hahhhhahha

[Rich]

I'm not opposed to Japanese, Korean, Chinese, southeast Asian Zen cultural forms. I am opposed to mindless rituals that put people to sleep rather than waking them up. In Earth Zen I would like to see artists, poets and musicians play an important role. They are not as brainwashed and conditioned. The west has a rich cultural tradition in art, music, and dance. Why can't some of that be part of Zen?

Life is more a celebration than a funeral.
SAT today

[Joyo]

This thread reminds me of a story from my family history. My father was raised in a very tight-knit, German Mennonite community. When he married my mother, she experienced a lot of prejudice and racism-----even though she had converted and was also a Mennonite. But-----she was Hungarian, not German!!! So, to put it in the right terms, she did not speak the language or know the culture, or have the right heritage. That caused quite a stir, back in the day.

I like that, Rich, life is more a celebration than a funeral =)

Gassho,
JOyo
sat today

[Frank]

I like all the openness of this thread ...

Raise your hand if you've been to Japan? Ok, hands down.
Raise your hand if you are fluent in Japanese? Ok, hands down.
Raise your hand if you ARE 100% Japanese by birth? Ok, hands down.

My point is, that most of us would have never found this wonderful teaching, IF we had not been open enough to accept each other, and accept the changes in this teaching. The modern technology of the computer has opened up THIS WORLD and COMMUNITY of Greenleaf.... Without it, we may still be stumbling around a bit longer, trying to figure this all out on our own.

Since there have been martial arts references that were very well put, may I add one more...

Bruce Lee said of his style of martial arts which he coined Jeet Kune Do ....
Take what you can from it and make it yours, and the rest throw away. After all, it's only a name.

Gassho my friends :)
Frank
Sat today

[Byrne]

Came across this recently from our good buddy Sheng Yen. On the one hand he is talking of superstitious nonsense. The kind of stuff that turns off a lot of us rational western types. On the other hand, in a broader sense, he is talking about rebirth in a way I don't think any of us here would argue with.


https://youtu.be/bACesT6gjJg

Gassho

Sat Today

[Risho]

Rich - I really like how you are articulating your points.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Jundo]

Came across this recently from our good buddy Sheng Yen. On the one hand he is talking of superstitious nonsense. The kind of stuff that turns off a lot of us rational western types. On the other hand, in a broader sense, he is talking about rebirth in a way I don't think any of us here would argue with.


Hi Byrne,

Well, personally, that is precisely the kind of Teaching that you will not be hearing in this Community because I believe it is superstition and baseless about any way you look at it. I leave it to other people to practice and believe such things, but I feel that Buddhism (at least the flavor here) can do without it. Maybe I will come back as an angry ghost for saying so.

And I am not sure what you mean by "he is talking about rebirth in a way I don't think any of us here would argue with." I would argue with it. His very mechanical description of "good acts lead to good effects" is something that I view as simplistic, unlikely to be accurate as a model for how the world works or an an explanation for why good and bad things happen, and thus I do not personally see such a claim as true by any reasonable explanation (more power to others who do have faith in that).

In any event, such beliefs ... in ghosts and spirits and mechanical rebirth and Karmic effects ... need not be central to Zen Practice. I am hoping to offer a flavor of Buddhism practice quite free of all such questionable beliefs, thank you.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Byrne]

Hi Jundo,

No it is definitely not Treeleaf's style and yes it probably is too simplistic at face value. You are very much a "just the facts" kind of guy and you frequently warn against objectifying Buddhism's many abstract concepts. (Dharmakaya, Amitabha, all those bodshisattvas, etc) Supernatural stuff isn't my bag either and I'm not trying to promote this way of thinking.

But, there are a lot of people in the world. A whole lot. And we all frequently take our own perspectives for granted. We also frequently overlook the limitations of our own perspective which is the most deceptive illusion of all. If you want to see how much superstition exists amongst rational modern people just ask any American who they're backing for president and why.

As for how he is describing rebirth I said in a broad sense, not a specific sense. The consequences of our actions go on long after we're finished and manifest is all kinds of ways. If someone prefers to call these lingering karmic effects ghosts or deities I wouldn't say they are fundamentally wrong. Where we can go wrong is how we may understand this kind of terminology for sure. The semantic and misunderstanding abyss is vast. Given your response, I'm guessing you have lots of experience and issues with superstitious misunderstandings within the context of Buddhism.

Every now and then I like to step out of my comfort zone and think about what else going on, at least temporarily. Or maybe I'm being too spiritually diplomatic. But I've been traveling for a living for 15 years. I have to deal with all manner of people from wildly differing points of view, levels of education, and cultural trappings. I have to reinvent reality a lot.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Risho]

If someone else's point of view is rife with superstitions we need not encourage that. I know we all have our own superstitions, but as human beings (zen practitioner or not) we should examine our beliefs and drop them if they are just useless or baseless. I think that too is what zen is about; in that respect it is very scientific.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Bokusei]

Thank you Sozan for starting this thread. It is a subject I've been mulling over for sometime and it has been interesting reading everyone's contributions.
Deep gratitude to you all.

Gassho

Bokusei

sat today




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Ben]

In any event, it such beliefs ... in ghosts and spirits and mechanical rebirth and Karmic effects ... not be central to Zen Practice. I am hoping to offer a flavor of Buddhism practice quite free of all such questionable beliefs, thank you.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

This is, more or less, why I came here after having spent the better part of a year taking weekly classes at a local Chung Tai Chan monastery. I have great respect for the shifus there and I value my experiences studying with them, but there's just far too much stuff in their practice and teachings that feels like superstitious nonsense to me. Though other folks, interestingly enough including some who come from certain Western religious backgrounds, seem to connect with it. Dharma gates really are numberless, but that particular set of gates just isn't right for me.

On the other hand, I really like the traditional Japanese aspects of Treeleaf, though I'm still getting used to them and I realize that my attachment (!) to them may be largely aesthetic.

At any rate, right now this place feels very right for where I happen to be. Thanks to Jundo and the rest of you for making it so.

Gassho,
Ben

SatToday

[Washin]

Hi all,

I read this article today and found it interesting for sharing here..

http://www.lionsroar.com/forgotten-encounters-of-tibetan-zen/

Gassho
Washin
sat-today

[Myosha]

Hello,

Thank you for the link.


Gassho
Myosha sat today

[Eishuu]

Really interesting article, thanks.

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

[Jakuden]

Thanks Washin that is very interesting indeed!

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Mp]

Hi all,

I read this article today and found it interesting for sharing here..

http://www.lionsroar.com/forgotten-encounters-of-tibetan-zen/

Gassho
Washin
sat-today

Thank you Washin. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Jundo]

Hi Jundo,

No it is definitely not Treeleaf's style and yes it probably is too simplistic at face value. You are very much a "just the facts" kind of guy and you frequently warn against objectifying Buddhism's many abstract concepts. (Dharmakaya, Amitabha, all those bodshisattvas, etc) Supernatural stuff isn't my bag either and I'm not trying to promote this way of thinking.

But, there are a lot of people in the world. A whole lot. And we all frequently take our own perspectives for granted. We also frequently overlook the limitations of our own perspective which is the most deceptive illusion of all. If you want to see how much superstition exists amongst rational modern people just ask any American who they're backing for president and why.

As for how he is describing rebirth I said in a broad sense, not a specific sense. The consequences of our actions go on long after we're finished and manifest is all kinds of ways. If someone prefers to call these lingering karmic effects ghosts or deities I wouldn't say they are fundamentally wrong. Where we can go wrong is how we may understand this kind of terminology for sure. The semantic and misunderstanding abyss is vast. Given your response, I'm guessing you have lots of experience and issues with superstitious misunderstandings within the context of Buddhism.

Every now and then I like to step out of my comfort zone and think about what else going on, at least temporarily. Or maybe I'm being too spiritually diplomatic. But I've been traveling for a living for 15 years. I have to deal with all manner of people from wildly differing points of view, levels of education, and cultural trappings. I have to reinvent reality a lot.

Gassho

Sat Today

Hi Byrne,

I know that we all may suffer from superstitions (my joke is that, in the 23rd Century, folks will laugh at our naive belief in gravity), and that there are "more things in heaven and earth than dreamt in your philosophy, Horatio." However, that does not mean that there is truly a monster in Loch Ness, that psychic healers can cure cancer, that Elvis is still alive or that we are literally reborn as ghosts or puppy dogs (the latter might be true, but I strongly doubt it and find supposed evidence unreliable). Buddhism is plagued by such old wives tales, hocus-pocus incantations, myths posing as historical fact. We can do without all that and, anyway, it is not important to Zen Practice.

I did not find Rev. Sheng Yen talking about these ghosts, or about one-to-one "good effects from good actions" Karma, in a purely symbolic or psychological sense, or as some lingering loosely defined effects on others lives after we are gone. It sounds from what you posted, and other things I have read by him, that he meant it in a pretty literal way. There may be such ghosts, and many folks in traditional corners of Buddhism believe in them. However, in this Community, I prefer to keep the ghosts and the Loch Ness monster outside.


I read this article today and found it interesting for sharing here..

http://www.lionsroar.com/forgotten-e...f-tibetan-zen/

Hi Washin,

There was all manner of mixing and matching as Zen and other forms of Buddhism traveled up and down the Silk Road, and from country to country. From what I have seen of the book, Zen mixed with some Tibetan esoteric beliefs when it was prevalent in Tibet (it was later purged by Tibetan Buddhists). The result were some hybrids of Zen and Tibetan Buddhism which existed for a short while. That is what the book is focused upon.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Sim175]

What attracts me to Zen in particular more than any other school of Buddhism is its simple, elegant, minimalist set of rules & practice. As far as I understand, the core practice is zazen to be more awake to reality, and the rest is somewhat complimentary. Useful for some, less for others, to each their own.

I'm not very attracted to rituals and chanting and I might not ever practice with them, but they are part of the tradition, and I can only encourage whoever wants to continue that tradition to do so. If it helps them, why not?

In the end, anything cultural is a man-made concept or habit, there's nothing inherently true & absolute about it.

My two cents about it. Enough rambling! :)

Sim
Sat today gassho1

[Jundo]

What attracts me to Zen in particular more than any other school of Buddhism is its simple, elegant, minimalist set of rules & practice. As far as I understand, the core practice is zazen to be more awake to reality, and the rest is somewhat complimentary. Useful for some, less for others, to each their own.

I'm not very attracted to rituals and chanting and I might not ever practice with them, but they are part of the tradition, and I can only encourage whoever wants to continue that tradition to do so. If it helps them, why not?

In the end, anything cultural is a man-made concept or habit, there's nothing inherently true & absolute about it.

My two cents about it. Enough rambling! :)

Sim
Sat today gassho1

Hi Sim,

I must say that has more to do with how it is Practiced and has come to emphasize seated Zazen over all else in the West. In Japan, where the Zen Schools might be considered the "church" much like the Catholic Church, a priest's daily life might be said to be occupied with morning to night rituals ... small and personal, or large and complex rituals ... from the long dance of the Morning Service (see video below) to personal chants and bows when entering the bath or toilet. Yes, in a Soto Zen monastery, Zazen is the core and is said to be "all" ... but as some scholars have pointed out, when rising from the Cushion, all daily activities are also "Zazen" in its widest meaning.

It was so in Dogen's time too ... (p. 75 here) ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=kVZpAgAAQBAJ&dq=%E2%80%9C%E2%80%98Just+Sitting%3F%22+%22Dogen%E 2%80%99s+Take+on+Zazen%2C+Sutra+Reading%2C+and+oth er+Conventional+Buddhist+Practices%E2%80%9D&q=cast+by+moden+scholars#v=snippet&q=cast%20by%20moden%20scholars&f=false

It is true too for most other forms of Buddhism in the West. For example, the very stripped down, lay focused "Insight" and "Mindfulness" schools come from the Theravada in South Asia where monks are largely concerned with rituals and other activities, few meditating at all.

Here is what morning looks like at Sojiji, the head temple of Soto Zen. Learning dozens and dozens of ceremonies like this, and then performing them, is perhaps the activity which takes most of a monk's time, far more than spent sitting on the cushion (which, by the way, is also a ritual).

There is a great power, beauty, harmony in these Ceremonies ... pouring in oneself all to find one self ... for those who are drawn to the Practice. Here, at Treeleaf as with most Western groups, we tend to emphasize Zazen and are minimalist (very minimalist) on Ceremony.

Better said, in our Sangha, we make all our morning to night ... changing baby diapers, putting gas in the car, working in the office, coming home ... our Sacred Ceremony and Ritual, all Zazen in widest meaning.**

Sojiji Head Temple of Soto-shu ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBF2q0p9pdg

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

** And before someone asks, although "all is Zazen and all there is", only "seated Zazen" is "all there is" too and is indispensible. When sitting, sit.

[Washin]

There was all manner of mixing and matching as Zen and other forms of Buddhism traveled up and down the Silk Road, and from country to country. From what I have seen of the book, Zen mixed with some Tibetan esoteric beliefs when it was prevalent in Tibet (it was later purged by Tibetan Buddhists). The result were some hybrids of Zen and Tibetan Buddhism which existed for a short while. That is what the book is focused upon.

Gassho, Jundo
gassho1

[Risho]

I don't want to overstay my welcome on this topic but I just want to say that this thread exemplifies why this is my home.

I can get on soap boxes; I think most of the time when I get adamant I'm rejecting my own, previously incomplete understanding, which means to say this happens over and over and over as I practice.

I feel our practice here does speak to the heart, my heart.

Sometimes I reject it; sometimes I embrace it; its my pattern of growth here so I thank you for entertaining the musings of a beginner going through the motions of practice.

Ultimately what we have here is beautiful; Jundo has shown ways of living a true life full of gratitude and growth, full of mystery, full of zen.

Now I'm done posting on this topic but I really just wanted to share my gratitude for you all.

Gassho

Risho
-sattodau