What does "self" mean in Buddhism

[Joyo]

I was having a conversation with my husband (he does not study Buddhism at all) and trying to explain what the word "self" means. I was directly referring to this quote by Dogen....

“To study the Buddha Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of enlightenment remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly.”



Funny as I understand what this quote means (at least partly) but I have a hard time explaining to someone what the "self" means from a Buddhist perspective. I would say ego? our perceptions on things?

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Jakuden]

Hi Joyo! I think about this statement a lot! In my mind, the beginning part of the quote starts with the egocentric self, then describes how this egocentric self drops away and becomes everything, and nothing, infinitely...

Gassho,
Sierra
SatToday

[Rich]

Yea, I'd say ego. So if we are just in the present that consciousness or wakefulness is non self or no mind which is ego less. And then you say words can't describe it and then they roll their eyes 👀😊 -)

SAT today

[Jundo]

Hi,

I feel what Sierra is describing. Lovely.

Of course, we must be cautious about putting this too much into words and formulas, because then it becomes too much a philosophical understanding which keeps us from really embodying so (much as the difference between philosophizing about "what is 'sweetness'" and actually tasting the ice cream :encouragement:), but almost all Zen teachers through history spoke more or less so when they had to say something.

Generally, the small "self" is the little inner model of ourself which we create within, and which feels separate from the rest of the "not me", then separates and categorizes the world into all manner of separate things, judges dichotomies such as good and bad, healthy and sick, life and death (because even being "born" and "dying" can only apply to something which is separate from everything), here and there, yesterday today and tomorrow etc. etc. etc. Even this "me/mine" is made an object in the mind which we judge, fixate upon and worry about endlessly.

Some schools of Buddhism and other Eastern/mystical religions and philosophies tend to describe this experience of "small self" as "false", while the dropping away of all that separation, thinging and judging is "True", whereby the target is to drop the "little self" completely. Most flavors of Zen Buddhism, however, have a much more subtle teaching, which I might describe as "the little self may be false in one way, but also useful and golden while it lasts". The enterprise then becomes to see through it, drop it and embrace the little self all at once! [claps] Each view is true in its way depending on one's perspective (and "non-perspective", because when all division is dropped what "seer" having a view of a "seen" is possible), and also the illumination of this Wonderful Whole shines beyond, through and precisely -as- each separate thing.

The result is something like saying "there is no sickness and health, life and death, nothing to fear ... and yet, at the same time, there is sickness and health, life and death and each is a precious jewel in the moment (so when sick, just be sick ... when healthy just be healthy) ... while, at the same time, take your vitamins and exercise (for while sickness and death may be just a dream, no need to rush that dream :p ). Much of Genjo Koan (where your quote comes from) is filled with this view of transcending, dropping and also reactualizing this self and all things as shining jewels ... each a total facet of the Great Jewel which is Enlightenment.


Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water.
Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.
http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Dogen_Teachings/GenjoKoan8.htm

I find this a very healthy, wise and gentle way to live, so recommend this Practice to folks.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jishin]

Hi,

I would say that self is a sound. It can be approximated by those who read and speak English and put the letters s e l f together. Depending from where the person is from, the pronunciation may sound different. Maybe even unintelligible between two English speakers. Likewise, it may not be understood by someone with a minimal education. But the sound and word self is not understood by non English speakers. It is also not understood by a rock, tree, cat or dog. The sound is not understood by a deaf person either. So I would say self is a pretty worthless word with no meaning, maybe best described as no-self.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Mp]

Hello Joyo,

Wonderful reflection here for sure ... for me, simply put the self is the ego. If we see the ego for what it is and açcept it for what it is, it falls away. =)

Gassho
Shingen

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[CK732]

Hi,

I would say that self is a sound. It can be approximated by those who read and speak English and put the letters s e l f together. Depending from where the person is from, the pronunciation may sound different. Maybe even unintelligible between two English speakers. Likewise, it may not be understood by someone with a minimal education. But the sound and word self is not understood by non English speakers. It is also not understood by a rock, tree, cat or dog. The sound is not understood by a deaf person either. So I would say self is a pretty worthless word with no meaning, maybe best described as no-self.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Very interesting Jishin [emoji848] I believe we can say this about all words and labels. Would you agree? The only meaning they all have is the meaning that we choose to give it.

Gassho

Clarisse Sat2Day


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[Jishin]

The only meaning they all have is the meaning that we choose to give it.



The only meaning they all have is not the meaning that we choose to give it. It's the meaning I chose to give them. :)

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Kyonin]

Hi Joyo,

The way I understand the concept of self and ego is that both are the way we humans have to understand and to relate with the universe. We have developed it through out hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. We are a weak species, so we need cunning and intelligence to have competitive advantage against the dangers of the environment and to get our food.

We see a phenomenon in the world and find out how will it affect us. We developed language to communicate with each other, but also to give things names so we can understand them. So we establish relationships with things, environment and people based on how much they affect US (or I).

The self or ego is the collection of stories we tell ourselves in order make sense of the universe and see the impact it will have in our lives. The problem is we grasp to these stories and convert them into opinions and judgments, assuming that what we think is reality.

But this complex way to see the universe is only a human thing. In nature there is no ego or self. Living beings will protect their lives and may have basic egos, but at the end, they won't create a huge drama out of stuff. Things happen because that's nature and is how the cosmos works.

Ego and self are just illusions that create a divisive mind that separates a person from the the rest of living beings. And I don't have to say the countless problems this has created for us.

I hope this all makes sense. Just woke up and I am still with my first cup of coffee :D

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Joyo]

Thank you everyone.

Kyonin, what you said made total sense. =)

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Frank]

Just reminds me of my martial.arts background. In the movie about Samurai with Tom Cruise, he keeps fumbling and getting beat up untIL someone tells him NO MIND..YOU MUST HAVE NO MIND.
He was then there present, but not there, he was aware, but not locked on any moment, fluid and flowing like water. In the eye of the hurricane at all.times, nor affected but ever present in control.
No mind.

[Eishuu]

Absolutely beautiful quote about the moon in a dewdrop...just wow! Am putting that up in my home to reflect on (no pun intended :-)) Thank you.

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

[Jakuden]

The self or ego is the collection of stories we tell ourselves in order make sense of the universe and see the impact it will have in our lives. The problem is we grasp to these stories and convert them into opinions and judgments, assuming that what we think is reality.

That's a pretty darn coherent summary for being on your first cup of coffee, Kyonin!

Gassho,
Sierra
SatToday

[Jundo]

Just reminds me of my martial.arts background. In the movie about Samurai with Tom Cruise, he keeps fumbling and getting beat up untIL someone tells him NO MIND..YOU MUST HAVE NO MIND.
He was then there present, but not there, he was aware, but not locked on any moment, fluid and flowing like water. In the eye of the hurricane at all.times, nor affected but ever present in control.
No mind.

Hi Frank,

The one point (pun intended) I would mention when someone brings up such "one pointedness" of "Samurai Tom Cruise Mind" :p is that such is one tool on the Zen tool belt. Some folks think that the point of this Practice is to learn to be such all the time.

Well, good for swordsmen and other martial artists in battle, divers about to go off the high board, tea masters drinking tea, sewers of the Rakusu sometimes, the ritual of Zazen sometimes and all manner of Zen Ceremonies such as Oryoki and all manner of "be flowing in the moment" life moments ...

... but it is not be necessary, practical, healthy or (in my view) possible to live such way all the time.

If you don't mind (pun intended), I wrote a bit more about that here:

Being mindful of 'mindful'
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7910-Being-mindful-of-mindful

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Anshu Bryson]

I think it is difficult to nail down. When we say 'self' in the Buddhist context, we are usually talking about 'atta'/'atman' (sometimes translated into English as 'ego', but I understand it to be more like the concept of 'soul', which is quite different than 'ego', I'd suggest). In Japanese, the kanji I think is most often used (Jundo please correct me if I'm mistaken) for 'self' or in Japanese is 'ga' (我. 'No self' being 'muga'/'無我') which, from a J-E dictionary search, simply translates as 'self' or 'ego'. It really depends on what kanji Dogen used in the original text. And, if indeed it was 'ga', we should be aware that the Japanese translation might not be fully accurate. It's a sort of like the 'Chinese Whispers/Telephone' game. Each time a term is translated from one language to the next, it loses some nuance. We are a couple of translations down the line; we might not always get the right nuance from any English version. So, perhaps it's a good thing that Zen is a 'transmission beyond words'... :)

All that boring technical stuff aside :), I do like Kyonin's observation: "Ego and self are just illusions that create a divisive mind that separates a person from the rest of living beings. And I don't have to say the countless problems this has created for us..."

Gassho,
Anshu

-sat today-

[Jishin]

Hi Joyo,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self

A western definition of the "little self" from wiki:

The self is the subject (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject_(philosophy)) of one's own experience (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience) of phenomena (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenomenon): perception, emotions, thoughts. In phenomenology (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenomenology_(philosophy)), it is conceived as what experiences, and there isn't any experiencing without an experiencer, the self. The self is therefore an "immediate given", an intrinsic dimension of the fact of experiencing phenomena. In some other trends of philosophy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy), the self is instead seen as requiring a reflexive perception of oneself, the individual person, meaning the self in such a view is an object (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_(philosophy)) of consciousness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness).

Regarding the "Big Buddhist Self":

I think that all words are representations of reality, not the real deal. This being so, anything that can be said about the "Big Buddhist Self" is not it. The Dao # 1 explains it well. If it can be said, thats not it. Why? Because they are words. The "Big Buddhist Self" and the "little self", if it can be conceptualized, is not it because it relies on words to be "understood." How do you explain with words the taste of an apple to someone that has never tasted an apple? You can try, but the best way would be by taking a bite out of it. But even then, their taste buds are different than yours, they may be allergic to apples, they may be blind or deaf and miss the "real" or "universal" experience of bitting into the apple. Even apples lack a western "little self" or a "Big Buddhist Self."

So, how can someone talk about the "Big Buddhist Self" without being wrong? They can't. Anyone that tells you they understand the "Big Buddhist Self" is wrong. Now, with this in mind, Zen teachers do the best they can with what they got - words and actions. It takes a lot of a skill to talk about something that can not be talked about. Zen teachers are dummies and they know it. Students are dummies but do not know it. Thats the difference.

With regards to your case, trying to explain the concept of the "Big Buddhist Self" to a non buddhist is a tall order. So, good luck. :)

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

If I may offer a couple of cautions ...

First, one should avoid being to overly analytical about some of this. As was stated, it is something like describing apples without tasting the apple.

As well, one can be too light about this. It is not simply to be a bit less selfish, less self-centered, less wrapped up in ourselves, more concerned about the feeling and needs of other people (although those are all marvelous attributes that we can cultivate along this Path). It is a much more radical transcending of the sense of small, mortal, limited self than that.

Traditionally, in Mahayana Buddhism (including Zen), our enterprise is to transcend the restricted (some say "false") model of self/other (me vs. everything not me) that is created within the human mind, and all the dividing, categorizing, judging, attaching, fearing etc. etc. that then goes with it. Here is a classic description from one of the basic old texts of our Mahayana corner of Buddhism, including Zen. It from a work called "Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana" written about the 6th Century AD it is believed. Note that here the author uses such terms as "One Mind" and "Suchness" to point to whatever is when all divisions, names and categories are dropped (however, he goes to great pains to say that even those terms are also just provisional). He speaks of the "ignorant" mind that has all the divisions and judgments, and the True Mind which is free of all that ... and enlightened mind, which is seeing that both are just the same all along from different perspectives. He uses descriptions like "eternal" and "pure", but what he actually says is that he means more something timeless (transcending even human measures like "eternal" and "finite") and beyond all human measures of "pure vs. impure".


I. One Mind and Its Two Aspects

The revelation of the true meaning of the principle of Mahayana can be achieved by unfolding the doctrine that the principle of One Mind has two aspects. One is the aspect of Mind in terms of the Absolute (tathata; Suchness), and the other is the aspect of Mind in terms of phenomena (samsara; birth and death). Each of these two aspects embraces all states of existence. Why? Because these two aspects are mutually inclusive.

A. Mind in Terms of the Absolute
The Mind in terms of the Absolute is the one World of Reality (dharmadhatu) and the essence of all phases of existence in their totality. That which is called "the essential nature of the Mind" is unborn and is imperishable. It is only through illusions that all things come to be differentiated. If one is freed from illusions, then to him there will be no appearances (lakshana) of objects regarded as absolutely independent existences; therefore all things from the beginning transcend all forms of verbalization, description, and conceptualization and are, in the final analysis, undifferentiated, free from alteration, and indestructible. They are only of the One Mind; hence the name Suchness.

All explanations by words are provisional and without validity, for they are merely used in accordance with illusions and are incapable of denoting Suchness. The term Suchness likewise has no attributes which can be verbally specified. The term Suchness is, so to speak, the limit of verbalization wherein a word is used to put an end to words. But the essence of Suchness itself cannot be put an end to, for all things in their Absolute aspect are real; nor is there anything which needs to be pointed out as real, for all things are equally in the state of Suchness. It should be understood that all things are incapable of being verbally explained or thought of; hence the name Suchness.

...

1. Truly Empty
Suchness is empty because from the beginning it has never been related to any defiled states of existence; it is free from all marks of individual distinction of things, and it has nothing to do with thoughts conceived by a deluded mind. It should be understood that the essential nature of Suchness is neither with marks nor without marks; neither not with marks nor not without marks; nor is it both with and without marks simultaneously; it is neither with a single mark nor with different marks; neither not with a single mark nor not with different marks; nor is it both with a single and with different marks simultaneously. In short, since all unenlightened men discriminate with their deluded minds from moment to moment, they are alienated from Suchness; hence, the definition "empty"; but once they are free from their deluded minds, they will find that there is nothing to be negated.

2. Truly Nonempty
Since it has been made clear that the essence of all things is empty, i.e., devoid of illusions, the true Mind is eternal, permanent, immutable, pure, and self-sufficient; therefore, it is called "nonempty". And also there is no trace of particular marks to be noted in it, as it is the sphere that transcends thoughts and is in harmony with enlightenment alone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awakening_of_Faith_in_the_Mahayana
http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Translations/Awakening_of_faith.html

Even Zen through the centuries, although we try to avoid being too wordy and philosophical about it, has pretty much been about experiencing what the author is describing.

By the way, when one transcends the self/other divide in Buddhism, the result is not what philosophers call "solipsism" (the view that the whole of reality is just Jundo Cohen ... or put your name here ...). Rather, it is something which transcends all "Jundo Cohen/Not Jundo Cohen" to something much more encompassing and wonderful. It would be terrible if the universe were just fat old me! :p

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jakuden]

Aaah! Ok it's going to take quite a bit of re-reading to get close to "grokking" that one. Right from the first paragraph I am already realizing I have been confused about what is "the Mind in terms of the absolute" vs. "the Mind in terms of phenomena", I thought they were the same thing, as opposed to the more relative emptiness that holds them all... I guess part of the point, though, is that the words used are inadequate anyway to described "suchness," which contains everything?

It would be terrible if the universe were just fat old me! :p

Gassho, J

SatToday
Nah, it would eliminate a lot of terrible suffering in the world, but it might be pretty boring for you. I can join you in the fatness club after this holiday season! Had leftover Christmas cookies for breakfast :p

Gassho,
Sierra
SatToday

[Jishin]

First, one should avoid being to overly analytical about some of this. As was stated, it is something like describing apples without tasting the apple.



I like simplicity. I am not a good wordsmith. One of the cool things about Zen is that with a few words one can convey volumes and volumes of meaning when using koan dialogues/examples or when "stinking of Zen." It's much easier and expedient to communicate in this fashion in
Zen circles in my opinion. But now and then I take a stab at being wordy and analytical which is best left to the professionals. :)

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jakuden]

I like simplicity. I am not a good wordsmith. One of the cool things about Zen is that with a few words one can convey volumes and volumes of meaning when using koan dialogues/examples or when "stinking of Zen." It's much easier and expedient to communicate in this fashion in
Zen circles in my opinion. But now and then I take a stab at being wordy and analytical which is best left to the professionals. :)

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

It depends who is in the Zen circles of which you speak, some of us have a long way to go before we can understand the volumes of meaning in those few words. Yes it can seem like repetition and wordiness sometimes, but in a one-room schoolhouse (like this forum) the kindergarteners share the same space with the advanced students. Prior to finding Treeleaf, and what appears to me to be Jundo's "middle way," I perhaps thought that there had to be some goal of "ultimate mindfulness," or some state of completely ego-less being, now I realize that must be dropped like any other preference, reaching, or searching... sometimes it is just communication through the words of our small selves because that is a tool we have, and that's it. Other times it may be a koan used as a tool to further understanding, but not necessarily a goal of all communication to be turned into koans... how inefficient that would be!

Gassho,
Sierra
SatToday

[Joyo]

Thank you, Jundo. [gassholook]

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Joyo]

It depends who is in the Zen circles of which you speak, some of us have a long way to go before we can understand the volumes of meaning in those few words.
Gassho,
Sierra
SatToday


Hi Sierra, I understand how you feel in regards to understanding the volumes of meaning in Zen words. I felt that way a lot when I first started practicing, and obviously (since I started this post) I still do. I've found the way to handle that is just to let go of grasping for the meaning. Eventually the understanding comes, as you practice, and quit trying to figure everything out. There are still many things I do not fully understand when it comes to Zen words, so I just continue to quietly practice, letting go of the desire to understand it all. I hope that makes sense. =)

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Jakuden]

Yes it makes total sense... usually if I bang my head against something long enough, I do just let it go and come back to it (a lot like sewing the Rakusu, isn't it!!?) Thank you for the encouragement, I will definitely continue to practice--and to practice dropping the need to understand it all :)

Gassho,
Sierra
SatToday

[Jishin]

Yes it can seem like repetition and wordiness sometimes

Yes. Jundo is a broken record most of the time. His favorite one pony trick is the middle way. A very important trick. :).

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Rich]

Hi Sierra, I understand how you feel in regards to understanding the volumes of meaning in Zen words. I felt that way a lot when I first started practicing, and obviously (since I started this post) I still do. I've found the way to handle that is just to let go of grasping for the meaning. Eventually the understanding comes, as you practice, and quit trying to figure everything out. There are still many things I do not fully understand when it comes to Zen words, so I just continue to quietly practice, letting go of the desire to understand it all. I hope that makes sense. =)

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today


Thanks, really like this letting go of the desire to understand and quietly practice. It's so easy to make Zen into another intellectual exercise.

SAT today

[Jishin]

Thanks, really like this letting go of the desire to understand and quietly practice. It's so easy to make Zen into another intellectual exercise.

SAT today

I think what get us into trouble is the frontal lobe. If we all had frontal lobectomies we would be better practitioners. :)

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Rich]

I think what get us into trouble is the frontal lobe. If we all had frontal lobectomies we would be better practitioners. :)

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_


But wouldn't that make us into one trick ponies 😊 -)

SAT today

[Jundo]

... I perhaps thought that there had to be some goal of "ultimate mindfulness," or some state of completely ego-less being, now I realize that must be dropped like any other preference, reaching, or searching...

Sometimes (although actually "sometimeless" because beyond human measure of the "now vs. then" clock and "yesterday/today/tomorrow" calendar) there is "completely ego-less being" ...

but I would say such is a nice place to visit but wouldn't want to (nor could we practically while in human form) live there ...

... and, by the way, not a "there" or even "here" place for "you" to visit, because that creates a mental gap between "you" and "it", "here" and "there" ...

... so better known as so "Big H Here" that this "thisless this" sweeps both away and right in both here there and everywhere.

One must even be careful calling such as "being" because that too creates a split between "to be or not to be", and so does any denial, thus to use the way of putting things from the piece I quoted above in Koany fashion ...


It should be understood that the essential nature of Suchness is neither with being nor without being; neither not with being nor not without being; nor is it both with and without being simultaneously; it is neither with a single being nor with different being; neither not with a single being nor not with different being; nor is it both with a single and with different being simultaneously. In short, since all unenlightened people discriminate with their deluded minds from moment to moment, they are alienated from Suchness

That is just a word game to caution us to get radically away from the mental categories like "being" vs "not being" to find what radically transcends such. a kind of Big B "Being".

Now that being said, get back to life, get back to our day to day word games of this and that ... go to work, take care of the baby, chop wood and fetch water.

However, maybe one will now know a bit that all this life, every day to day, all this and that, the work, the baby, all that grows and all held in the bucket is Suchness too.

Something like that.

Gassho, Jundo the Broken Record

SatToday

[Jakuden]

I think what get us into trouble is the frontal lobe. If we all had frontal lobectomies we would be better practitioners. :)

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_ Yes, (spoken like a true expert in neuroanatomy lol) very intriguing, that story recently posted about the doctor who had the left-brain stroke and lived by pure experience without verbal analysis! Of course, there goes my desire to explain everything again. There are those that address being human as a disease, as if our self-awareness is somehow unnatural and problematic, or inferior/superior to animals in some way... someone commenting on our FB page yesterday was even insisting how humans are all terrible by nature.... but I think we just are what we are as part of the universe as it should be, and the challenge is just to become "fully aware" of what we are, both the verbal, analytic and non-verbal sides to us (absolute vs.. relative?)

Gassho,
Sierra
SatToday

[Jakuden]

Sometimes (although actually "sometimeless" because beyond human measure of the "now vs. then" clock and "yesterday/today/tomorrow" calendar) there is "completely ego-less being" ...

but I would say such is a nice place to visit but wouldn't want to (nor could we practically while in human form) live there ...

... and, by the way, not a "there" or even "here" place for "you" to visit, because that creates a mental gap between "you" and "it", "here" and "there" ...

... so better known as so "Big H Here" that this "thisless this" sweeps both away and right in both here there and everywhere.

One must even be careful calling such as "being" because that too creates a split between "to be or not to be", and so does any denial, thus to use the way of putting things from the piece I quoted above in Koany fashion ...



That is just a word game to caution us to get radically away from the mental categories like "being" vs "not being" to find what radically transcends such. a kind of Big B "Being".

Now that being said, get back to life, get back to our day to day word games of this and that ... go to work, take care of the baby, chop wood and fetch water.

However, maybe one will now know a bit that all this life, every day to day, all this and that, the work, the baby, all that grows and all held in the bucket is Suchness too.

Something like that.

Gassho, Jundo the Broken Record

SatToday Thank you Jundo, the broken record helps stuff get through my thick skull sometimes! Going to sit, then do barn chores, fill the woodstove, and quit the yakking for tonight :)

Gassho,
Sierra
SatToday

[Shoki]

There is what I think of as the polluted self. There is where I can spend a lot of time thinking about how everything relates to me and vice versa; This meal is great so I am a good cook. That person bothers me. Those flowers I grew are beautiful so they please me. Why is she acting like that towards me? It's amazing how much time I could spend being annoyed because people don't behave the way I think they should. This type of self can lead to troubled mental state or exalted ego status even at very subtle levels.
Then there is the clearer self. I go sit or I keep slicing tomatoes or whatever I'm doing and let the pollution fade. Like Jundo says; let the clouds blow away and see the clear blue sky. No judgements. Just sit and pay panoramic attention. And then.....I don't know. There's a clearer, truer self. It's like I've tested both and this works. Shunryu Suzuki said when you do something you should burn yourself up like a good bonfire leaving no trace of yourself.

Gassho,
Sat Today
James

[Jundo]

...
Then there is the clearer self. I go sit or I keep slicing tomatoes or whatever I'm doing and let the pollution fade. Like Jundo says; let the clouds blow away and see the clear blue sky. No judgements. Just sit and pay panoramic attention. And then.....I don't know. There's a clearer, truer self. It's like I've tested both and this works.


Oh, such moments are so vital on this Pathless Path!

It is not usually a matter of the hard walls falling away, but more often that they just soften, become clearer, porous and illuminated. It is these moments in life where we can "flip the switch" between all the frustration, strong desires, aversions, attachments, anger, divisive thinking, regrets, hopes, fears and other divided thinking ...

... and then instead find simplicity, letting be, clarity, lightness, wholeness, whereby all the complexity of a moment before become utters simplicity. :encouragement:

This is pretty much what I encourage people to develop with the daily "insta-Zazen" recommendation, by which the little annoyances and struggles of the day (the creeping post office line, the guy who cuts us off in traffic, waiting in the doctor's office for test results) becomes a proving ground for "hitting that switch" which replaces tensions and negative emotions with allowing, clarity, greater ease. Suddenly everything is tasted differently.

Introducing Insta-Zazen!
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7686-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%28Part-XX%29

The author of the 6th Century book I have been quoting also says that there are times that every division drops away and we completely "burn ourself up", times there is not a cloud in the sky, and other times a bit of light shines through the cracks.

Wonderful.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Joyo]

Absolutely beautiful Jundo and James! This way of living and practicing has helped me with every aspect of my life. It is the anchor that is always there, amidst all of life, whether it's arguing with a spouse, cutting tomatoes, cleaning the kitchen floor, or taking the dog for a hike.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Jakuden]

Here's to a clear, whole, present, simple New Year with peace and love to all!

Gassho,
Sierra
SatToday

[Cumminjd]

Thank you all for this thread, I sometimes have too much egocentric self, more importantly egocentric self doubt.

Gassho
James
Sattoday


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[Ryumon]

I've just been re-reading Uchiyama's Opening the Hand of Thought, which covers the question of what self is in great detail. I won't try to summarize it, because I'm not sure I've fully understood everything he says, but I will add these quotes that I've noted from the book:

“self is what is there before you cook it up with thought.”

“This self is universal existence, everything that exists”

“All of us, regardless of whether we realize it or not, are living out the self as the entire universe.”

“We practice Zazen, neither aiming at having a special mystical experience nor trying to gain greater enlightenment. Zazen as true Mahayana teaching is always the whole self just truly being the whole self, life truly being life.”

Gassho,

Kirk

SatToday

[Washin]

Great thread.
Thank you Joyo and everyone for the comments.

Just wished to add my 5 cents.. :) I've just finished reading the Robert Aitken's chapter 14 (The Self)
in the 'Mind of Clover' where he points..

"The self that is 'autonomous' and also one with all things is the self that is forgotten,
not the self that is somehow eliminated. How do you forget the self?
In an act --- in a task. You don't forget your self by trying to forget yourself. When you're absorbed in
reading, the words appear in your mind as your own thoughts. When you're absorbed in Mu, then Mu breathes
Mu. The fragrance of incense is sitting there on your cushion.. The sound of trees in the wind walks about
in kinhin.. The bark of the dog prostrates itself before the altar. Yet, these are simply the acts of a Stephen
or a Linda."

I think this is so wonderfully put..

Gassho,

Sergey
sat-today

[Matt]

Most flavors of Zen Buddhism, however, have a much more subtle teaching, which I might describe as "the little self may be false in one way, but also useful and golden while it lasts". The enterprise then becomes to see through it, drop it and embrace the little self all at once!

Thank you for this teaching, Jundo. This is very helpful.

Gassho,
Matt
#SatToday

[Jundo]

Most flavors of Zen Buddhism, however, have a much more subtle teaching, which I might describe as "the little self may be false in one way, but also useful and golden while it lasts". The enterprise then becomes to see through it, drop it and embrace the little self all at once!

I might also add that this Practice includes "change-not-changing" the little self. What is that?

Well, from one aspect, our little self, just as it is, is always a shining jewel with not one thing about it to change, greedy or generous, angry or equanimous, jealous or confident etc etc. No need to change one hair on your little head. Same for all things in this crazy world of war and peace, sickness or disease, clean or dirty. There is not one thing to change, each is a shining facet of the jewel, and a light shines through all the dichotomies.

On the other hand, there is much about us which this Practice guides us to change, namely, to be freer of greed, anger, jealousy and the rest of the divisive thinking of ignorance. Likewise for this world.

What is the result? Hard for our normal "either/or" way of encountering the world to grasp, but it is something like ...

... when fat there is nothing to change, when thin there is nothing to change ... yet best to stick to that New Years diet because fat is not healthy. Anger is just anger, but best to be free from anger because it divides us from properly seeing the Wholeness (and also makes our lives and this world a lot uglier). When sick just be sick, when healthy there is just healthy, yet take your medicine because who wants to be sick?

... likewise, war is just war and poverty is just poverty, and a light shines right through all human war and peace, rich or poor, clean or dirty. Nonetheless, let us end the war and make peace, feed the poor, clean the kitchen and the rivers (because who wants a filthy kitchen and polluted rivers)?

Understand?

No spelling mistakes possible on the Buddha Typewriter ... each missed letter a shining diamond ... yet best to use spell check (I just did). :p

Our Practice as this little "self" is change-not-changing at once.

By the way ...

... nothing to change, not one hair on my head, fat is fat and skinny is skinny, and each piece of chocolate cake is just also a "shining jewel" of rich "just what it is-ness" so no way to "cheat" in the Buddha's eyes ... yet I have been sticking to this diet and avoiding the chocolate cake and not cheating on my diet as best I can for a long time. If having a choice between being a fat Buddha or a healthy one, I take the latter. Kind of a "Zen Diet". :)

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Mp]

Our Practice as this little "self" is change-not-changing at once.


gassho2

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Washin]

likewise, war is just war and poverty is just poverty, and a light shines right through all human war and peace, rich or poor, clean or dirty. Nonetheless, let us end the war and make peace, feed the poor, clean the kitchen and the rivers (because who wants a filthy kitchen and polluted rivers)? Thank you [gassholook]

Gassho
Sergey
sat-today

[Kyonin]

Today I had to clean the liter box. And the cats were looking at me.

It was a weird moment because for a second, my self told me not to clean it. It smelled really bad. "Let someone else do it".

Then I smiled at the cats and cleaned, forgetting about what I wanted.

Just did what life needs.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Jakuden]

Today I had to clean the liter box. And the cats were looking at me.

It was a weird moment because for a second, my self told me not to clean it. It smelled really bad. "Let someone else do it".

Then I smiled at the cats and cleaned, forgetting about what I wanted.

Just did what life needs.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday
....I had a similar moment when my alarm went off this morning and I needed to get out of my comfy bed and go feed, blanket and turn the horses out in 0 degree weather. But there is something particularly satisfying about having happy, clean, fed animals, at least for me... they exude so much more gratitude than grumpy teenagers, at any rate.

Thank you Jundo and everyone for your comments... nothing needs to be changed, but doing what needs to be done today anyway.

Gassho,
Sierra
SatToday