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Jundo
10-04-2015, 02:47 PM
Hi,

We are on Chapter 24, "What Do You Depend On? - The Vast Inconceivable Source Can't Be Faced Or Turned Away From".

Anything I say will do an injustice here.

He begins by mentioning all that we depend on in life, but give little thought ... the farmers who provide our food, the sun which shines in the sky providing light and heat.

Oh, how the whole world depends on the whole world ... how we depend on every flea and grain of sand and atom and star in some way. All is so interconnected!

But even that kind of intimate interconnection is not our real focus today. What is the focus of this chapter if not that?

The real focus of this teaching is a dependence-reliance much vaster than even all that.

How does one "depend" on such which is never apart and is all around ... something which cannot be "leaned on", because "never faced or turned away"?

Whatever "that" is, is every farmer and sun beam and flea and grain of sand and all the rest, you and me too. It is all of that, everything everywhere and the kitchen sink. Still this is nothing less, and so much more.

So the question again:

How does one "depend" on such which is never apart and is all around ... something which cannot be "leaned on", because "never faced or turned away"?

I have no idea myself.

Gassho, J

RichardH
10-04-2015, 04:43 PM
I have no idea.

But bullshit is going to rise anyway.....and i need to say I know that everything called "I, me, and mine" is not mine, and that every fiber of this body and mind belongs to "the world" or "that" or whatever... dissolving without remainder and that "I" am baseless and have nothing to hold, and having nothing to hold there is letting go and forgetting, and in letting go and forgetting something fearless and sovereign is born.

Just a burst of words from standing and painting all day. Joyful Nonsense:)

Gassho
Daizan
Sat today.... Standing too.

Myosha
10-04-2015, 05:58 PM
Hi,

How does one "depend" on such which is never apart and is all around ... something which cannot be "leaned on", because "never faced or turned away"?


Gassho, J

Hello,

Don't know.


Gassho
Myosha sat today

Mp
10-04-2015, 06:53 PM
Wonderful, thank you Jundo. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

Jishin
10-05-2015, 03:03 AM
Hi,

It depends on who you ask.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

ForestDweller
10-06-2015, 06:48 PM
Well, of course, I don't know either, but words will out! As we tread water, we just have to try to explain. So here goes. The "dependence" to me is a feeling of free-fall, letting go backwards without seeing what is underneath, and absolutely knowing that the falling will continue forever as will the raising up with a thousand hands. I'm struck that our interdependency so often manifests as reciprocity. We know on every level that we rely on others and on space/time itself, but we're often quite busy with our own dramas of the day that we forget how absolutely not-independent we are. Still, we know, and so comes the reciprocity -- the greetings when we encounter one another, the return dinner invitations, the letting the other driver go first, and on and on. If we look closely, we are always giving and being given to. We are in relationship, like it or not, with all that is. Like the fish swimming in her watery home, we are mostly unaware of this reciprocal atmosphere, yet we practice it, even "lean on it," time and time again. It is how we say to one another, "I am here, too." "I see you." "I fear I will suffer; therefore, I wish that you not suffer." "I hope for happiness; thus, I wish for your happiness." Is this not the genesis of "right view" and "right intention"? Is this not the impetus for compassion and generosity? ^^ForestSatToday^^ CatherineS

ForestDweller
10-06-2015, 06:50 PM
Jishin, really? ^^ForestSatToday^^ CatherineS

Jishin
10-06-2015, 06:58 PM
Jishin, really? ^^ForestSatToday^^ CatherineS

Are you asking me or me?

Gassho, Jishin, ST

Rich
10-06-2015, 08:55 PM
I rely on the will to be present, the will to live. Otherwise I would never return from my dreams and delusions. It's a mystery because I don't really know what it is and if it's fabricated I had to do it to live.

Thanks Catherine, always enjoy how you describe things.
Jishin, I call that me and mini me. 😊 -)

SAT today

Risho
10-07-2015, 04:25 PM
By dropping the separation. Zazen has taught me how distracted I am, and I like the distraction. Sometimes, I do almost anything to avoid "now". So sitting, settling are very good practices for me. Rich, I like how you put "I would never return from my dreams and delusions." They are so tasty and inviting! hahahaha

Catherine: ditto for what Rich said. gassho2

Gassho,

Risho

Jika
10-08-2015, 07:11 AM
I agree with Daizan. Only put it upside down.

My approach (resulting from personal experience before meeting Zen or Buddhism) would be, that usually we perceive of ourselves as depending on or up-on conditions.

Like standing on Eiffel tower, looking down, and being amazed how this was constructed, built, is being maintained, not simply keels over.

Having ever been to the ground, there is forgetting, and a vastness that is carrying everything, without discrimination.
Then layers can be added to vastness, like layers of paint, Daizan, maybe, making an "I", making distinctions, making thoughts and plans.

So I depend on many things, like carrying my meds around and making sure they don't run out.
While depending on nothing.
Crazy gap.
I'm only approaching to see things mix.

Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

Jundo
10-08-2015, 04:36 PM
I came across a lovely passage by Homeless Kodo Sawaki (from the amazing book "Commentary on the Song of Awaking" ... more about that book in the near future) ...

http://www.amazon.com/Commentary-Song-Awakening-Kodo-Sawaki/dp/1937385612

... in which he comments (in his often rough and salty, but also sublime way) on this "Buddha" upon which we rely but which cannot be found ...

Gassho, J SatToday

----------------

To put it another way, it is not in seeking Buddha that we will find him. He will be there when you have ceased searching for him, when you are no longer anything other than one with him and you have forgotten him, when you've stopped forcing your poor incompetent brain to function and you go to the dojo to practice under a master to understand that which cannot be explained in words.

When I was a young monk, I often asked for explanations, and they always answered that one cannot talk about it. Now I know that one says nothing. However, there's a big difference between saying nothing and not being able to talk about it. When I was young, I got myself entrapped once by an old sake brewer with an audacious and innovative spirit. One day he asked me, "Sawaki, what's zen?" I answered, "You can't explain it with words." Then he said to me, "It's the same for sake. I studied physics and chemistry and research on the fermentation of alcohol. Now I apply my knowledge and I make good sake. I can explain the technique of manufacture, but that's not sufficient. One can explain only that which is explicable. In addition to that, there's all that one cannot explain with words. It's in doing this that one understands." This intelligent man had given me a good lesson. What cannot be spoken can be expressed otherwise. Even a mute can express himself when its a question of a physical experience.

No matter what quantity of words is absorbed by those who don't practice with their bodies, it will all come to nothing. Consequently, if you seek the Buddha without practicing, you cannot find him. You can 
neither visualize him,nor call out to him,nor seize him with the mind, nor seek here or there. So Buddha,where are you? Where are you?

The master with whom I practiced when I was young once said to me, "You're like a person with shit on his nose asking everyone else ''Who farted? Who farted?"" He said this to me because I was extremely eager to get satori or find the Buddha. Sotoba [the poet] spoke in more poetic terms:

Drizzling rain on Mt. Lu The waves of the Zhe river.
Before visiting there, I felt discontented in many ways.
Having visited there and returned,
There is nothing special.
Drizzling rain on Mt. Lu.
The waves of the Zhe river.
We go to seek very far away that which has always been near.

Risho
10-08-2015, 05:09 PM
gassho2

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

Mp
10-08-2015, 05:55 PM
Lovely Jundo, thank you ... look forward to hearing more about this book by Sawaki Kodo. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

Joyo
10-09-2015, 01:45 PM
I have some reading to catch up on! Thank you, Jundo. [gassholook]

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

AlanLa
10-09-2015, 06:54 PM
My (clearly wrong) answer is that I depend on emptiness, and emptiness depends on form.

In my daily life as practice, I lessen that dependance to the extent that I can. I see how far I can fall. (Life has been disappointing lately, so I sit with that hurt).

In my daily life, I depend upon dependance. After falling, I use the ground to get up. (At some point, I use that disappointment to move on and try to improve my life).

Joyo
10-10-2015, 02:23 PM
I don't know either, Jundo. I was raised to believe in god, and faithfully did so for 35 years. Walking away from Christianity turned my world upside down. Many questions, much doubt and wondering, stress and pressure to figure it all out. If not a god, then what? If a god, than which one, or is there an only one? In the end, questions gave rise to more questions, I lived in confusion, and never found an answer. I did find this however,

"He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehood and errors" Thomas Jefferson

It helped me find my "answer." My answer was peace in not knowing. As someone who loves nature and has always had a deep connection to all beings (even though being raised in a rough, redneck ranching family who just did not get this at all!!) I can definitely say this "something" is there, in the eyes of a calf, in the mama cow as she bellows for her newly weaned baby to return, in the sky, trees, rocks it's everywhere actually!! And it is truly beautiful and also very sad and ugly. And for me, that is enough. Others believe it is God. My husband believes in a loving god that we are all going to see in heaven some day (even his Zenny wife and atheist children) He knows I'm very skeptical of this. But who am I to say for sure. As Kodo Sakaki so elegantly puts it (lol!!) --

People often say, "In my opinion...."Your opinion is no good so keep your mouth shut"

[gassholook]

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today