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Jundo
06-14-2015, 04:08 PM
Dear All,

I trust that we have all come to Chapter 11, "A Great Vehicle Bodhisattva trusts without doubt" ....

We happen to have a little chat going on another thread about faith-trust ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?13536-Faith

I take from this chapter a description of a grand Trust in a life and world of impermanence, which is always filled with unknowables, risks, unpredictables, that which is beyond our control. Being somehow completely at ease and at rest even with all that.

Something possibly to discuss ...

Has this Practice helped you develop such trust?

Gassho, J

SatToday

Jishin
06-14-2015, 07:28 PM
Has this Practice helped you develop such trust?



Hi,

Yes it has.

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

Mp
06-14-2015, 09:00 PM
Thank you Jundo ... Yes, I have trust and faith that life will surely provide risks, unpredictables, and impermanence in it's many forms. I also have faith and trust in the teachings/Dharma and myself to be at ease/accepting with all those conditions of life, as best as I can. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

Theophan
06-15-2015, 01:31 AM
Jundo,
Yes this practice has helped me a lot. I do have faith and trust in my journey (walk in life), and my ability to accept and deal with life's ups and downs. I also remember Zazen is the key that helps me do this.
Gassho
Theophan
Sat Today

Kyotai
06-15-2015, 02:46 AM
Yes. Certainly and Shingen echos my feelings on this exactly. And as Theophan said, zazen is the key to this experience.

Knowing not how, but accepting that this journey will end brings beauty to each moment.

Trust and faith, lack thereof, sitting with both. :)

Gassho, Kyotai
Sat today :)

Jundo
06-15-2015, 03:28 AM
I encountered this today. A biopsy as part of the upper GI camera thing. The doctor says, "Probably nothing, just to be sure, but come back in two weeks for the results".

All good. impermanence, unknowable, risk, unpredictable. Some natural worry, but also Great Trust, Ease and Rest. "Probably nothing", yet "all will be as it be's".

I think one reason so many Jews in America are attracted to Buddhism is because we are a naturally worrying people. Old joke:


Old jewish man goes to the doctor for his annual check-up. He says, "Doctor, I think this pimple is cancer!" Doctor responds, "No, no. It's nothing. Don't worry, it is just a pimple."

Next year, same man goes back to the doctor. He says, "Doctor, I think this cough is cancer!" Doctor responds, "No, no. It's nothing. Don't worry, it is just a cough."

Next year, same man goes back to the doctor. He says, "Doctor, I think this headache is cancer!" Doctor responds, "No, no. It's nothing. Don't worry, it is just a headache."

Finally, the very next year, same man goes back to the doctor. He says, "Doctor, I think this other pimple is cancer!" Doctor responds, "Yes, I think it is!" Old Jewish man jumps up: "I KNEW IT!!"

Please, nobody post here "Jundo, hope it turns out well" and the like. Not necessary. It will be what will be. I have endless trust in that.

Gassho, J

SatToday


PS - (By best friend from college just died from cancer yesterday. He was an evangelical Christian, so not sure how he would feel about it. However, I will be sitting for him and his family this week).

Joyo
06-15-2015, 02:23 PM
Thank you Jundo ... Yes, I have trust and faith that life will surely provide risks, unpredictables, and impermanence in it's many forms. I also have faith and trust in the teachings/Dharma and myself to be at ease/accepting with all those conditions of life, as best as I can. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

I couldn't have said it any better myself. And thank you, Jundo, I will be re-reading this chapter this week....such a wonderful little book!!

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

Christopher
06-16-2015, 03:42 AM
These last two readings have finally connected with me. For the past year I have been sitting, but without knowing where I was going...and why. Now the teaching looks as if I might learn to deal with the random and sensless fears that have arrived with old age and becoming a pensioner. The house is probably not going to fall around my ears...if I work diligently I will deal with all its defects.

I too, had a recent medical appointment that I had no need to fear...thanks Jundo.

And while I am writing I must thank whoever it is who decided to track all our birthdays...It gave me a great feeling of belonging. Not easy to kindle in this loner.

Gassho
Christopher

sat2day

Jika
06-16-2015, 04:22 PM
Yes, I have trust and faith that life will surely provide risks, unpredictables, and impermanence in it's many forms. ... as best as I can. =)

This made me laugh, Shingen, thank you!

I know you meant differently, but for myself, I am so poor at the last part, it is almost irony.
On the cushion, I am most times able to relax into a deep trust.
As if I had been carrying a backpack of doubt and worry all day that I am allowing myself to put down.

But off the cushion, well - as best as I can, in this body and life, NOW. :D
And over again.


I must thank whoever it is who decided to track all our birthdays

Christopher, I like you mentioning this. I liked receiving birthday greetings too!

Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

Ekai
06-16-2015, 05:43 PM
Is it too late to join in this book study?

gassho,
Ekai
sattoday

Mp
06-16-2015, 06:07 PM
Is it too late to join in this book study?

gassho,
Ekai
sattoday
Come on in Ekai, pull up a zafu, and enjoy. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

Jeremy
06-16-2015, 08:38 PM
This chapter has me thinking about the difference between "trust without doubt" and Shunryu Suzuki's phrase "accept things as it is". They're similar but very different.

Gassho,
Jeremy
SatToday

Byrne
06-17-2015, 02:02 AM
Sometimes trust comes very easy to me. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes I trust things will be. Sometimes I distrust that things will be the way I want them to be. Sometimes I feel that I need them to be a certain way. When they aren't I trust that they are not that way.

Gassho

Sat Today

orangedice
06-17-2015, 04:45 AM
This passage in particular hit me and is something I'd like to try when I'm off the cushion:


I encourage you to observe the fear and anxiety in your mind and body and see whether they help you and others. If not, there's no need to judge or throw out these feelings, just recognize them for what they are.


Whenever I have anxiety or depression, I turn inward and don't even consider how those thoughts are harming myself and most likely others. I want to become more conscious of these thoughts and let them go like Connelly suggests. It's definitely a game changer for me! [claps]

As for trust, I'm still working on it. :P I feel like I've logically--whatever that means--come to understand impermanence, but the fear of death still keeps me up late at night. Maybe not so often anymore, but it's definitely there. For me it's a heart-clenching, chest tight kind of feeling.

I also connected with Connelly's bit about Bodhisattvas as a "supernatural embodiment of Buddhism's highest ideals." Not because I believe in some supernatural deity, but like Jundo said in that other thread, it's a concept of these characteristics in all of us.

I hope some of that made sense...

Gassho,
June
#SatToday

pinoybuddhist
06-18-2015, 01:59 PM
Recently I went through this period of just being really aware of my mortality. Maybe it's seeing the kids grow up and my wife and I grow old - whatever - I would lie awake at night just painfully aware of the inevitability of the breakdown of this skin bag, and I'd be anxious. And yet right there IN and AS the anxiety and fear is just this trust...

you know how sometimes Jundo writes about a peace beyond peace and not peace, and other stuff like that - and it's like one huge block of text on the screen, and you want to get what he's saying, and you do a little but you don't really REALLY get it? But then, like getting gradually wet while walking through a thick fog (like Suzuki described it), you start to get it. Well yeah... starting to be at ease even through the unease, even through the doubts and fears, and AS the unease, doubts, and fears.

Gassho, Raf
Sat today

Myosha
06-18-2015, 02:13 PM
Hello,

Practice develops.

In gratitude.


Gassho
Myosha sat today

Ekai
06-19-2015, 05:09 PM
I am going through a divorce so life is very difficult right now. This practice is helping me to trust that everything is supposed to happen just as it is even during the hard times. It's teaching me to just sit through the painful emotions, stress, anxiety, depression and financial hardships. Instead of fighting reality, I am learning to go with flow. These waters are rough but one day, my river will be calm. I believe that everything is impermanent including my present situation. I am learning to accept things just as they, not as I want them to be. One day things will get better and who knows what the future will bring. I just know deeply in my heart that I will learn from this and hopefully will grow from it. This is the hope that gets me through the day. Trusting in natural flow of life gives me peace during these painful times. I trust that no matter what happens, I will be OK.

Joyo
06-20-2015, 01:13 PM
"This is actually the beginning of the bodhisattva's trust--to have enough confidence to turn the light inward and look at the fear itself, rather than the shadow it is casting, that we think is reality"

I had an opportunity to practice "turning the light within" this past week. My kids had track and field on Tuesday. My oldest son won all three races. He is already popular, outgoing, and athletic, so this created a lot of attention for him both that day.....and for the rest of the week at school. The following day my youngest son started picking on my oldest a lot. This frustrated me terribly as my youngest is quite a handful to begin with. I got upset with him one evening because he just kept picking on his older brother. But, eventually, I clued in to what was happening. He was feeling inferior. I spent some time looking at what was really going on, turning that light inward. He told me "mommy, all the kids in my class are talking about Evan winning." I spent some time building up his confidence, and it made a huge difference. And I think this was a valuable lesson for years to come as I parent my two kids, turning that light inwards instead of just assuming.

Of course, nothing will ever cure sibling rivalry and fights :eek: But this past week I did learn a lot about looking at things as they really are, instead of the casted shadow.


Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

Risho
06-24-2015, 07:52 PM
Sorry for the late post in this one as well -- I've been sitting but work lately has been taking more time than normal; with that being said, I "trust" you will not be angry at my late post. cough, cough :)

Trust is a very important point for me. As the posts have indicated I think it's important to all of us, and I think trust in this practice is the only way to allow it to do it's non-work. And to me a lot of that is about opening up.

For example, last week on the other post about trust, I sort of came into that post with an agenda of trying to win an argument; it's a bad habit, and it surfaces time and again. Anyway after I said my piece, I was tempted to keep going. But it got to a point of "what's the point?". And this sort of relates to the previous book club post, but the point of speech in the Sangha here, or even in the world for that matter, is to help and not harm. And I think after a certain point, when everyone has correct understanding ( I mean as opposed to perhaps inaccurate views on a topic, like Buddha is a super human or a god, or something; I know it's a silly example but just an example) then really everyone deserves to be heard, and I think there is validity in the different viewpoints expressed here, which makes this Sangha very powerful, especially when we engage with an open mind as opposed to an argumentative one.

So that being said, I think trust has a lot to do with being able to do that here. We can only do that if we feel safe and also trust that our Sangha is also here to deepen their practice.

There are so many facets to it. I remember when I first started down this path, the new Zafu, the new Zabuton, the bowing, etc. I was in love with it. Then the newness wore off, and then I would sometimes reject the ritual. But now I'm trying to incorporate more bowing and more ritual, but at a more even keeled pace. I'm doing this because I know from past experience if I go in whole hog, and do not pace myself, I'm more likely to just end up stopping this. So the honeymoon period of zen is good because it takes a lot of fuel to get the jet off the ground, but once it's in flight, then not so much. That is a dangerous time too; now I'm sitting when it's not so "glamorous", but it's deeper, sort of like the deepness in a long relationship vs. a fling. And this is where trust comes in a lot.

To truly sit, to sit without expectation, requires complete trust in Jundo, in the Sangha, in the Buddha, and in ourselves. As the only Buddhist in my family, I need to trust myself a lot to just keep going no matter what. Is this a hobby, a flash in the pan (well I guess in a way according to the Diamond Sutra. lol), or is this a practice to be practiced fully through that does not end? I mean only I can answer that, and I have to trust myself to follow through or lean on the Sangha when I have to or to provide encouragement. I have to trust fully and completely that I will not give up.

So the other day, I was bowing to my lamps that light my room when I do zazen, to my zafu and to my Buddha (not in that order), and my wife was in the room, and she asked why I bowed to objects. In the past, I didn't trust my practice as much, and I would try to change the subject or just say it's hard to explain, but now I'm more questioning towards why I practice what I practice -- after all trust is a 2-way street. So I answered that I bow not to the objects, but to what those objects represent, what they allow me to do, the hours of time that went into making those things, and even if those things were created by robots in a factory, all the hours and engineering that went into developing those processes, and the food that went into nourishing the engineers so they could learn those things... I mean the interconnectedness goes on infinitely. So the point isn't that I went all "TNH" on her :) The point is that I'm beginning to trust why I do things in this practice, and that is a newer facet for me and, again, it's really powerful because it supports the practice.

And so what? And I guess this is where trust can be taken to another level and addresses Jundo's question about being at rest or ease when we are in the "shit". And I think it's all these practices of bowing, facing ourselves, understanding this practice, trusting in it, that opens us up to be here with all of this despite the situation. Of course we feel sadness, grief, anger, etc. We are human. But this practice shows us how to be with those feelings and not be overwhelmed.. to allow those feelings to come up without magnifying them. Be angry -- really be angry, don't be angry about being angry,etc. If someone dies, feel that grief. Allow yourself to mourn, fully. Cry your heart out fully. Don't run or be ashamed; be human. That was your friend. Damned right it hurts. Zazen takes the filter away so we can fully live, so we can also be a support for others and their right to be fully human. Since we face ourselves and see our greed, our strengths and weaknesses, we can empathize with others who appear to be "idiots" and realize that they also feel pain, and we can trust that we are the same and we can be there without making it worse by pointing fingers.

We can trust ourselves to be here, to listen to our lives, to be open and available to others who need it as well. And I think the world is in grave need of listening right now, so this is a powerful practice if we trust it.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

Jundo
06-25-2015, 01:50 AM
There are so many facets to it. I remember when I first started down this path, the new Zafu, the new Zabuton, the bowing, etc. I was in love with it. Then the newness wore off, and then I would sometimes reject the ritual. But now I'm trying to incorporate more bowing and more ritual, but at a more even keeled pace. I'm doing this because I know from past experience if I go in whole hog, and do not pace myself, I'm more likely to just end up stopping this. So the honeymoon period of zen is good because it takes a lot of fuel to get the jet off the ground, but once it's in flight, then not so much. That is a dangerous time too; now I'm sitting when it's not so "glamorous", but it's deeper, sort of like the deepness in a long relationship vs. a fling. And this is where trust comes in a lot.

To truly sit, to sit without expectation, requires complete trust in Jundo, in the Sangha, in the Buddha, and in ourselves. As the only Buddhist in my family, I need to trust myself a lot to just keep going no matter what. Is this a hobby, a flash in the pan (well I guess in a way according to the Diamond Sutra. lol), or is this a practice to be practiced fully through that does not end? I mean only I can answer that, and I have to trust myself to follow through or lean on the Sangha when I have to or to provide encouragement. I have to trust fully and completely that I will not give up.

So the other day, I was bowing to my lamps that light my room when I do zazen, to my zafu and to my Buddha (not in that order), and my wife was in the room, and she asked why I bowed to objects. In the past, I didn't trust my practice as much, and I would try to change the subject or just say it's hard to explain, but now I'm more questioning towards why I practice what I practice -- after all trust is a 2-way street. So I answered that I bow not to the objects, but to what those objects represent, what they allow me to do, the hours of time that went into making those things, and even if those things were created by robots in a factory, all the hours and engineering that went into developing those processes, and the food that went into nourishing the engineers so they could learn those things... I mean the interconnectedness goes on infinitely. So the point isn't that I went all "TNH" on her :) The point is that I'm beginning to trust why I do things in this practice, and that is a newer facet for me and, again, it's really powerful because it supports the practice.


gassho2

Jakuden
06-25-2015, 03:00 AM
Thank you Risho, this speaks to me very much! My introduction to Buddhism via my own seeking and reading was over 20 years ago, and I practiced true Zazen, as close as I could without personal instruction. Without others for support, though, I have floundered along, reading this and trying that, my focus waxing and waning... finding this Sangha and learning Shikantaza feels like coming home to me. Your tale of patience, persistence and trust reinforces my sense that this is where I/we have been, all along and helps me trust
fully and completely that I will not give up.


Gassho,
Sierra
SatToday

Ernstguitar
06-25-2015, 07:19 AM
To trust in Jundo or others is a possible approach. I trust in experiencing. For me there is no reason to trust Jundo or a book or anything else. There are no other people, who are responsible for whatever I trust in. I began zazen without trust. Learned to sit longer and letting go and so on. I do not belief in the experiences you had. Becourse there is no meaning for me. I know, the own concept makes the own experiences. So, if I belief in - let us say shamanic work - I will experience it in that conditions. No teacher will ever say: " I told you something wrong, so I will......" No, there is no possibiliy to make it good again.
What I do trust in is that I can walk ethicaly well my way with being free of attachments. That is what I experienced already once or twice. So, trust helps me a lot. And Ive got a lot of trust through zazen; trust in the big picture.

Gassho, Ernst
sat today

p.s.:sorry Jundo for this maybe harsh sounding statement. I do not mean it negativ in anyway.

Jundo
06-25-2015, 07:45 AM
p.s.:sorry Jundo for this maybe harsh sounding statement. I do not mean it negativ in anyway.

No, this is right. You should not trust me any more than an automobile mechanic recommending how to fix your car, a doctor advising surgery (always get a second opinion) or a rickety wooden bridge you wish to cross.

Most of all, trust yourself.

If after awhile, what this mechanic prescribes turns out to be total bullshit, I would get back in your car (hopefully still running) and drive away as fast as you can.

Gassho, J

SatToday

Ernstguitar
06-25-2015, 08:07 AM
If after awhile, what this mechanic presribes turns out to be total bullshit, I would get back in your car and drive away as fast as you can.

[scared] You would get back in my car....as fast as I can
Yes, that is fine for me too.
The meachanistic metaphor is a little hard to take. We are not speaking about hardware. And the "software" once installed is not deletable. Something stays in the CPU...


Thank you.

Gassho, Ernst

Jundo
06-25-2015, 08:44 AM
[scared] You would get back in my car....as fast as I can
Yes, that is fine for me too.
The meachanistic metaphor is a little hard to take. We are not speaking about hardware. And the "software" once installed is not deletable. Something stays in the CPU...


Thank you.

Gassho, Ernst

I would (if I were you) get back in your car as fast as I can.

Of course, in a Zenny way, I am you, in is out, there is no place to go and ... what car? :p

Gassho, J

SatToday

RichardH
06-25-2015, 01:38 PM
These posts bring up trust in the teacher, and in a way that is something I don't think about. Either the trust is there or it is not....it is hard to say why or how, it just is or isn't. I know that Jundo is living, working, falling, and dancing the Dharma, that the Dharma is bigger than him or me. I can rest in being a flawed, trying, messy, wonderful human.

Gassho
Daizan
Sat today

Mp
06-25-2015, 01:42 PM
These posts bring up trust in the teacher, and in a way that is something I don't think about. Either the trust is there or it is not....it is hard to say why or how, it just is or isn't. I know that Jundo is living, working, falling, and dancing the Dharma, that the Dharma is bigger than him or me. I can rest in being a flawed, trying, messy, wonderful human.

Gassho
Daizan
Sat today

Yes! Thank you Daizan, you speak my words. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

Risho
06-25-2015, 02:05 PM
Let me clarify about when I said "complete trust in Jundo". I wasn't saying that I'm devoted to Jundo the Almighty Perfect Being. I was saying, and acknowledging what Daizan said, that yes he is a human being obviously. I mean, come on, who really believes anyone has superpowers anymore or is perfect? [morehappy] So I thought I didn't have to specify that.

Trust doesn't mean blind acceptance or belief in the nonsensical abilities of someone, and (this is more of the next reading) it doesn't mean losing our critical eye; that's one of our greatest gifts by virtue of being human. By trust in Jundo I mean that I trust that what he teaches is of value even if I don't completely see it yet. I've been practicing for 6 years so I don't see it all yet. But I trust that the teachings that are taught here are pointing to something even if I don't completely see that something.

In other words, one of the first books I read before I started practicing spoke about Dogen's Mountains and Rivers Sutra. A lot of that was, and still is, over my head. "Stone woman giving birth in the night? What the hell?" But something "spoke" to me. Even though I don't always get all of Dogen, I trust that what Dogen says is pointing to something real.

It's that sort of trust I meant. Not a sort of trust where I hand over all responsibility and logic and believe in a pie in the sky fantasy.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

Edit - one other thing I forgot -- I do validate the teachings by my own experience; I mean that has to be part of the deal; otherwise, it's not trust, it's just sort of a complacency. But if I didn't have any trust in the teacher, teaching or sangha here, then there would be no reason for me to be here. Maybe this is semantics. lol

Jundo
06-25-2015, 03:01 PM
Let me clarify about when I said "complete trust in Jundo". I wasn't saying that I'm devoted to Jundo the Almighty Perfect Being. .... I mean, come on, who really believes anyone has superpowers anymore or is perfect? [morehappy] So I thought I didn't have to specify that.

NOW, I'm disappointed! I thought I had everyone convinced of my Almighty Perfect Beinghood.

Gassho, J

SatToday

Risho
06-25-2015, 03:10 PM
hahhahahahh

BrianW
06-25-2015, 04:13 PM
This chapter has me thinking about the difference between "trust without doubt" and Shunryu Suzuki's phrase "accept things as it is". They're similar but very different.

Gassho,
Jeremy
SatToday

Yes indeed Jeremy I thought of Shunryu Suzuki as well... "accepting things as it is" a classic!

Gassho,
Jisen/BrianW

Sat2day

Jishin
06-26-2015, 12:27 PM
Hi,

I am very ignorant about some things. For the first year or so at Treeleaf I asked myself what is a student? Is Jundo a teacher? Am I his student? I have a hard time with definitions. Do I have to pay tuition? Do I sign a piece of paper somewhere that says I am a student? Do I raise my right hand and take some kind of oath? Other people that hang out here say that they are students and also that Jundo is a teacher. And I am also people that hang out here. I read everything that is posted (but skip links to other sites or to YouTube due to lack of time). I sit daily and read on my own. This is probably what is meant by being a student. The teachers here then are you, the people that post. And since Jundo writes the most, he must be the main teacher. But again, this is just a bunch of words and definitions, stuff I have trouble with. Do I have trust and faith in Jundo and you? If I try to analyze this too deeply I get paralyzed by thoughts and life goes by without me onboard the ride. So I just do it. Whatever it is. I do it. And afterwards? I did it and do it again.

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_