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View Full Version : SIT-A-LONG with Jundo: Why Zen Folks FAIL!! (2) - FAIL-NO-FAIL



Jundo
05-29-2015, 05:36 AM
http://coachingforleaders.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/success.png

People fail at Zen because they think there is a place to fail. But in fact, THERE IS NO PLACE TO FAIL!

People fail at Zen because they think there is -no- place to fail. In fact, THERE ARE ENDLESS PLACES TO FAIL!

The biggest place to fail is to believe that there either is or is not places to fail. Better said, the trap is the failure to know that ONE CAN FAIL YET NOT FAIL AT ONCE!

There is a certain "Win-Win No Fail" realized thru this Way (well represented by the wide open sky in the picture above) which sweeps in all small human wins and losses. There is truly NO LOSS POSSIBLE, nor anything more in need of gain from the startless start. All is Buddha, and Buddha Can't Fail at being Buddha! :buddha:

And yet, in life, we must win some lose some. If you think that you will someday reach a point fully beyond all of life's wins and losses, ups and downs, where the sun will always shine without a day of rain ... well, not in this world, honey! If you over-idealistically think so, you are bound to fail (at least so long as one is a human being, a Bodhisattva, living in this world).

And if you drop your guard and fail to be diligent (perhaps thinking that it makes no difference because 'Ol Jundo said "there is no place to fail"), well, that is a ticket to failure too! Practice is in every moment and volitional choice. There are endless traps and mud piles to fall into ... exercise care or you will fall off the Lotus, and be up to your neck in the greedy, angry, divisive, selfish, miserable muck!. You are not yet Buddha although on the road there, and not until you make Buddha manifest in how you choose to live and act now. So, while you are already always flawless Buddha, you are simultaneously not yet Buddha and can fail at being Buddha! [scared]

One of the top places where people fail in Zen Practice is the failure to pierce these facts, get them in their bones and live accordingly. They fail to see how all of the above are true at once, as one! They fail to see how two seemingly opposed conclusions .... such as that one can fail and not fail at once ... can be true at once (such Zenny nonlogic is what so many of those old Koans are about).




The great Fayen Wenyi took the high seat before the midday meal to preach to his assembly. Raising his hand he pointed to the bamboo blinds. Two monks went and rolled them up in the same manner. Fayen said, ‘One gains; one loses.’ ... commented Wumen: Tell me, which one gained? Which one lost? ... But I must warn you most firmly against arguing gain and loss.




Even older Practitioners can fall into one extreme or the other ... running after a world of "Never Any Fail" too much, or at the other extreme, falling back into being excessively caught by the delusion of this world of success and failure. (Even many Buddhist teachers seem to put too much emphasis on reaching an extreme Buddha-realm by fleeing the ordinary world ... failing to see and teach how both mutually illuminate fully, the same yet not). If you are a long term Practitioner, but fail to get the meaning of what I say here, you have somehow missed something crucial despite all your efforts. You (or what you think of as "you") FAIL!

Thru this wondrous Path, one can attain a center point where all life's ups are up, the downs just down, a certain wise balance is attained where one avoids the pitfalls and minefields of harmful words, thoughts and acts with great aplomb ... all as one simultaneously knows a way of seeing and being fully transcendent of up/down/win/lose/rain/sun ...

... all right amid life's successes and failures, sun and rain, ups and downs.


THE DOWNLOADABLE AUDIO PODCAST VERSION IS HERE:




http://treeleaf.podbean.com/e/may-2015-talk-why-zen-folks-fail-part-2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BIdIXtXD0c

Jishin
05-29-2015, 07:53 AM
Hi,

I think Zen is often described as not One (singularity) and not Two (duality). One can not exist without Two and vice versa. So it's impossible not to fail or not not to fail. This being so, why care if failure is inevitable. Failure is a winning situation if we can accept that it is a part of life. Don't need to get so worked up if things don't work out exactly we want them to.

Ok. Now what? We have dynamite information that decreases suffering. Failing or not, we still win. Is it fair to keep this information to ourselves?

NO!

In order to fulfill our vows of saving sentient beings the above message needs to be propagated by our actions. Our school does this with Shikantaza and other means.

This is is my take on this topic.

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

PS: Looking for enlightenment or kensho is delusion. But that's just my opinion.

Shingen
05-29-2015, 01:47 PM
Thank you Jundo, wonderful talk. =)

I also agree with Jishin, if one looks at it in this manner, failure is a winning situation and a great place for growth and learning.


Failure is a winning situation if we can accept that it is a part of life.

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

Jundo
05-29-2015, 04:25 PM
Hi Guys,

Today's topic is a bit different from saying that failure always has a bright side or is simply a "chance for growth". I will talk about that another time, I promise.

Today's topic is that there is a Bright Side that transcends human success and failure. Not quite the same. This is growth and no growth, decline or no decline.

However, I also believe that failure generally has an upside (well, not always. But in most cases). Time for the old Chinese horse story ...


here is a Taoist story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years.
One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. "Such bad luck," they said sympathetically. "May be," the farmer replied.
The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. "How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed. "May be," replied the old man.
The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune. "May be," answered the farmer.
The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out. "May be," said the farmer.

And of course, there is always this ... :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M

Gassho, J

SatToday

Getchi
05-29-2015, 04:27 PM
Thankyou Jundo!

So without One and without Two means without discrimination? Like when it is said that the only mistake is to pit what one likes against what one does not like? So the river that washes away our home exists in a not-one-not-two state and its our own short-sightedness that is the real suffering?

Im having a great time working out new perspectives (Soto) on familiar themes (theravada) and now I think that i cant fail if I just dont stop. Perhaps we cant fail because theres no ultimate goal and we can fail because we can travel the journey without skillful guidance? Im starting to see the "whole approach" to life I think, if it exists it exists and we just have acknowldege it, everything else is delusion. Talk about attacking the root cause lol!


Gassho,
Geoff.
gassho1

SatToDay

Jundo
05-29-2015, 04:59 PM
Thankyou Jundo!

So without One and without Two means without discrimination? Like when it is said that the only mistake is to pit what one likes against what one does not like? So the river that washes away our home exists in a not-one-not-two state and its our own short-sightedness that is the real suffering?

Im having a great time working out new perspectives (Soto) on familiar themes (theravada) and now I think that i cant fail if I just dont stop. Perhaps we cant fail because theres no ultimate goal and we can fail because we can travel the journey without skillful guidance? Im starting to see the "whole approach" to life I think, if it exists it exists and we just have acknowldege it, everything else is delusion. Talk about attacking the root cause lol!


Gassho,
Geoff.
gassho1

SatToDay

Hi Geoff,

Yes, when we drop human discrimination and thoughts of division (self from other), there is a Just Flowing right as all. We are a River that holds all earthly rivers and deserts and houses. Thus we sit Shikantaza Zazen which, while it may appear to be sitting, is actually Flowing, Flowing, Flowing.

Something like that, I have already said way too much!

Now, just sit and find out.

Gassho, J

Sat and Flowed Today

Getchi
05-29-2015, 05:13 PM
A HUGE thankyou to you Jundo, I will go and sit some more!


Gassho,
Geoff.

AboutToSit

Jishin
05-29-2015, 06:20 PM
Hi,

Whenever I am too tired to try to understand something (like now because of traveling all day) but feel that I somehow have to do something about my lack of understanding I cover my ears and mumble form is emptiness and emptiness is form. There. Problem fixed. :)

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

Jundo
05-29-2015, 06:23 PM
:)

Shingen
05-29-2015, 10:35 PM
Whenever I am too tired to try to understand something (like now because of traveling all day) but feel that I somehow have to do something about my lack of understanding I cover my ears and mumble form is emptiness and emptiness is form. There. Problem fixed. :)


I like that, I will try it too. [claps]

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

Jundo
05-31-2015, 02:02 AM
Hi Guys,

Today's topic is a bit different from saying that failure always has a bright side or is simply a "chance for growth". I will talk about that another time, I promise.

Today's topic is that there is a Bright Side that transcends human success and failure. Not quite the same. This is growth and no growth, decline or no decline.

There is another little talk from awhile back that touches on this ...


What is the difference between gratitude and Great Gratitude seen in a Buddha's Eye? ... there is a greater, transcendent, boundless Gratitude in the Buddha's Teachings that does not even need the subtle "see the bright side" "find the positive to counter the negative" or "personal pay-off of what's ultimately nice for 'me'" in the above sense of ordinary gratitude. Rather, there's an even Greater "Non-Pay-off" than that! A Jewel so precious, it shines as both earthly jewels and life's thrown bricks and stones in our shoe.


gratitude & Great Gratitude
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?11275-SIT-A-LONG-with-Jundo-gratitude-Great-Gratitude

Gassho, J

SatToday

Jika
05-31-2015, 12:33 PM
Thank you, Jundo,

for those first two parts.
I like this one a lot.

Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

Sekishi
06-01-2015, 03:53 AM
Hi all,

This talk is now available as a podcast. Either see the link in Jundo's original post, or it should auto-magically appear in your podcatcher if you are subscribed.

Gassho,
Sekishi
#sattoday

Shingen
06-01-2015, 04:15 AM
Hi all,

This talk is now available as a podcast. Either see the link in Jundo's original post, or it should auto-magically appear in your podcatcher if you are subscribed.

Gassho,
Sekishi
#sattoday

Awesomesauce, thank you Skeishi. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

Cumminjd
06-01-2015, 05:55 PM
Im glad these are in podcast form for download. That was I can take these with me on adventures that may or may not have internet service. Therefore I will always feel connected to our sangha.

Gassho
James
Sattoday

Kyonin
06-01-2015, 06:46 PM
Thank you for this teaching, Jundo.

I couldn't totally agree more. For a lot of people zen is difficult because in this path we avoid thinking in absolutes. Some are successful on this, others like me fail.

But it all comes down to letting go our own opinions and prejudices and accept life as it is.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

Jundo
06-01-2015, 07:28 PM
I couldn't totally agree more.

Kinda Zen-grammar there, Kyonin! Even me, Mr. "Failnofail", was left scratching-not-scratching my head! :p

Gassho, J

SatToday

Meishin
06-01-2015, 07:56 PM
Thank you, Jundo

Gassho
Meishin
Sat today

Jeremy
06-03-2015, 04:12 PM
This is a great talk gassho1
It gives me the feeling (hopefully not illusory) that the penny is starting to drop, as we say in England.

Gassho,
Jeremy
Sat Today

Kyonin
06-03-2015, 09:46 PM
Oh boy, that was bad English. Sorry :D

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday


Kinda Zen-grammar there, Kyonin! Even me, Mr. "Failnofail", was left scratching-not-scratching my head! :p

Gassho, J

SatToday

Ishin
06-05-2015, 05:52 PM
I would like to think I am at least a c+ BUT ,I also know I am constantly failing. What I take away from all of this also is really seeing how the difficult people are all on the path too, even though they might not know it.

Gassho
Ishin
Sat Today!

Joyo
07-05-2015, 04:08 AM
Thank you, Jundo. [gassholook]

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

Byokan
09-14-2015, 12:35 AM
Thank you Jundo. gassho2

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

Onkai
04-13-2016, 07:31 PM
Thank you Jundo. gassho1

Gassho,
Onkai
SatToday

Jundo
04-14-2016, 01:21 AM
Hmm. Maybe I should revive this series with a couple of more episodes.

Gassho, J

SatToday

Jakuden
04-14-2016, 02:49 AM
Hmm. Maybe I should revive this series with a couple of more episodes.

Gassho, J

SatToday

Yes please do! gassho2

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

Onkai
04-14-2016, 07:12 PM
More episodes would be wonderful.[gassholook]

Gassho,
Onkai
SatToday

mateus.baldin
05-07-2019, 02:29 PM
Thank you for this teaching, Jundo. Just what I needed to hear.
Gassho,
Mateus
Sat/LAH

vanbui
06-05-2019, 12:28 PM
Thank you Jundo for this teaching. This reminds me of the concept of nonduality.

Gassho
SAT

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Kevin Benbow
11-05-2019, 12:32 AM
Gassho

Klb

Sat today

Kyotai
11-05-2019, 02:38 AM
I'm failing lots as of late. A good reminder.

Gassho Kyotai
ST

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