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Jundo
05-04-2015, 04:37 PM
Hi,

Let's read Chapter 6, Cultivating the Way, Inside and Out ... Zen and Yogacara.

You may wish to have a look at our recommended "Nurturing Seeds" Practice, which is related to the observation of our thoughts and emotions as described here. Please give this a try when some negative thoughts and emotions arise during the week.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6540-RECOMMENDED-DAILY-Nurturing-Seeds-PRACTICE

However, can one also come to see all the parties involved and the thoughts themselves as empty, dropping all sense of division and friction? What happens when the situation is free of inside outside and in between?

Gassho, J

SatToday

Shingen
05-04-2015, 08:40 PM
Wonderful, thank you Jundo. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

Joyo
05-04-2015, 09:21 PM
Thank you very much, Jundo.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

Kyonin
05-05-2015, 11:59 AM
Thank you Jundo.

I'll read, sit and come back here.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

Risho
05-05-2015, 07:40 PM
gassho2

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

pinoybuddhist
05-06-2015, 02:38 AM
gassho1

Raf
sat today

Kaishin
05-06-2015, 02:27 PM
I love this line: "If we get stuck on 'in-between', we may realize our total connection to everything in the universe but forget to pick the kids up from school."

-SatToday

Roland
05-07-2015, 06:08 PM
Thank you Jundo, I had forgotten about the nurturing seeds. I sticked to a strategy of feeling negative emotions rise but realizing they are just clouds drifting away. I'll practise the Seeds again.

Gassho
Roland
#SatToday

Risho
05-08-2015, 12:36 AM
What happens feels like a cool breeze. The other day a woman confronted me for the collar I was using on my dog. I logically explained the choice. I could tell she probably meant well, but she was off-base. In any case, I felt the rage inside, and I literally just dropped it. Anger is addicting, and it's my gut reaction to engage someone and push their buttons. But by dropping that, it's a lot more relaxing and creates less harm.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

Jundo
05-08-2015, 01:28 AM
Thank you Jundo, I had forgotten about the nurturing seeds. I sticked to a strategy of feeling negative emotions rise but realizing they are just clouds drifting away. I'll practise the Seeds again.

Gassho
Roland
#SatToday

Sometimes let them drift away without grabbing, sometimes replace the seeds ... but always let them drift away without grabbing even when replacing. (A Koan. Only in Zen can we say and do such things :p)

Gassho, J

SatToday

Jika
05-08-2015, 08:25 AM
I'd be interested in reading the Yogacara poem by Vasubandhu Ben is talking about.
I can't find it, does anyone have a good source?
Thank you.

Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

Jeremy
05-08-2015, 09:45 AM
Hi Everyone,


I got Ben's Grass Hut book a week or so ago and have been following the discussion, so would like to join in (-:


Today in the UK we're starting the day with the results of a national election and things didn't go the way I wanted. Feeling mildly depressed about this struck me as a good opportunity to plant some happiness / accepting seeds, and it's certainly changed my mood.


What I'm finding interesting is that at times like this, one wants to mull over the situation, and the emotion of mild depression seems to enable the mulling over. I'd say I can't really reflect on the election results without the presence of the emotion. Just an observation that I find interesting (-:


Gassho,
Jeremy


SatToday

Myosha
05-08-2015, 11:17 AM
Q1 - Yes

Q2 - Empty emptiness.


Gassho
Myosha sat today

Kaishin
05-08-2015, 03:55 PM
I'd be interested in reading the Yogacara poem by Vasubandhu Ben is talking about.
I can't find it, does anyone have a good source?
Thank you.

Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

I found a couple of different translations. No idea how accurate they are

http://lapislazulitexts.com/tripitaka/T31_1586

https://wutai.wordpress.com/2008/02/13/trimsatika-thirty-verses-of-vasubandhu/

-SatToday

Jika
05-08-2015, 04:56 PM
Thank you very much, Kaishin.

Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

Jundo
05-08-2015, 04:59 PM
I found a couple of different translations. No idea how accurate they are

http://lapislazulitexts.com/tripitaka/T31_1586

https://wutai.wordpress.com/2008/02/13/trimsatika-thirty-verses-of-vasubandhu/

-SatToday

Let me mention that this book (sorry, no idea if there is a German edition, Danny) by Thich Nhat Hanh is a very good attempt to make this ancient model of the mind/human psychology relevant to modern times. I have some review here I once wrote ...

=================

A rather good book, trying to take ancient ideas from the Yogacara and traditional notions of "Buddhist Psychology" and make them relevant for today (and very often succeeding ... although not always) is Thich Nhat Hanh's "Understanding Our Mind".

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Our-Mind-Buddhist-Psychology/dp/1888375302/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239874797&sr=8-1

However, realize that, in my belief, he is working from some rather quaint, traditional ideas that may not actually "exist" (like the 'Id' of Freud seeks to describe actual human behavior, but the "Id" is itself something that may not really "exist" in the human mind and now seems a bit dated and largely imagined). Traditional Buddhist psychology seems quite dated and imaginative (to many modern eyes), but was a pretty good model of human behavior and pretty observant for 2000 or so years ago. What is more, the traditional model, with a few updates, is still very useful and relevant and was absolutely right in its basic points and conclusions ... the core system is true and confirmed in more modern models, namely, that we create our experience of the world fundamentally as the "virtual" recreation of the mind fashioned from incoming sensory data, upon which the mind then lumps all manner of names, categories, relationships, judgments, aversions, attractions, other thoughts and emotions (I have never actually met "my wife", just an image created from light and other incoming sense data upon which all manner of things are added including a lot of emotions). So, says the Buddha, change (or discard) those names, categories, relationships, judgments, aversions, attractions, other thoughts and emotions, and change the world (or, at least, your self's experience of the world. In fact, change your "self's" whole experience of "selfness"!) :D Buddhism provides the tools to do just that!

Personally, I am not sure about the very ancient Buddhist description of a "Store" or "Seed Consciousness", which is said in traditional Buddhist psychology (of some schools) to hold the "seeds" of all our experiences and potential actions ... love, hate, peace, violence, you name it. The effects of the past leave these "seeds" in our "Seed Consciousness" and when a particular seed gets watered and come to bloom, we act such way ... angry effects of the past leave an "angry seed" in us which, when sprouting, results in "angry action" and an "angry" experience of life. (The Thich Nhat Hanh book I mentioned, "Understanding Our Mind", provides a very readable, if somewhat too simple, explanation of how this system works, as well as attempts to update the idea and make it more relevant to the modern world.)

Now, is there actually a "Store/Storehouse/Seed Consciousness" and "Angry Seeds" and such actually located somewhere, as ancient Buddhist philosophers asserted? Probably not, I think.

But the general mechanism is true and insightful as a description of human behavior. Effects from the past (for example, a violent childhood) leave scars and "seeds" for potential anger and violence within the victim which, when he/she grows, have the potential to cause the person to act in angry and violent ways. When we act and perceive the world with that anger, the world is perceived as an ugly and violent place. When we have "seeds" of peace within us, and can nurture that ... we tend to experience the world with peaceful eyes.

So, whether actually existing or just a symbolic description, the "Seed Consciousness" is a good and useful image for how we bear the effects of the past, and how our minds shape our experience of life ... and how we should try to water the peaceful seeds within us, and not the angry and violent seeds.

That is one reason that I recommend a daily "Nurturing the Seeds" practice, very much inspired by Thich Nhat Hanh ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6540-RECOMMENDED-DAILY-Nurturing-Seeds-PRACTICE

Gassho, J

SatToday

ForestDweller
05-08-2015, 09:08 PM
When "the situation is free of inside, outside, and in between," consciousness is transformed from "something that experiences suffering into something that does not." In this practice space, compassion and loving kindness have a place to express themselves. Otherwise, there is too much energy directed at my problems, keeping what is mine, and protecting me. This includes not becoming overly attached to "inside" (internal practices), or on all the common ways that can be found to suffer ("outside"). "In between" states are simply confusion. "We are shaped by our mind," are words to live by and to accept their veracity. Getting to know the nature, essence, and energy of our minds is so worth the time and effort it takes because then we can train the wild creature and make it a useful companion. Most of the time we are not only separate from others, but separate from understanding ourselves. What a shame when we have so much to offer ourselves -- and the world. ^ForestSat Today^ - CatherineS

Joyo
05-09-2015, 07:51 PM
I admit the last two weeks have been very busy for me and I have fallen behind with our book club. I will spend some time tonight and tomorrow catching up.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

Kaishin
05-10-2015, 11:38 AM
Now, is there actually a "Store/Storehouse/Seed Consciousness" and "Angry Seeds" and such actually located somewhere, as ancient Buddhist philosophers asserted? Probably not, I think.

But the general mechanism is true and insightful as a description of human behavior. Effects from the past (for example, a violent childhood) leave scars and "seeds" for potential anger and violence within the victim which, when he/she grows, have the potential to cause the person to act in angry and violent ways. When we act and perceive the world with that anger, the world is perceived as an ugly and violent place. When we have "seeds" of peace within us, and can nurture that ... we tend to experience the world with peaceful eyes.

So, whether actually existing or just a symbolic description, the "Seed Consciousness" is a good and useful image for how we bear the effects of the past, and how our minds shape our experience of life ... and how we should try to water the peaceful seeds within us, and not the angry and violent seeds.

That is one reason that I recommend a daily "Nurturing the Seeds" practice, very much inspired by Thich Nhat Hanh ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6540-RECOMMENDED-DAILY-Nurturing-Seeds-PRACTICE

Gassho, J

SatToday

Thank you, Jundo, for the addt'l info. It does seem that the seed consciousness model is a useful way to visualize this process, even if not mapped directly to physical reality. Pretty amazing how well crafted these models were so long ago.

satToday

Jika
05-10-2015, 12:01 PM
Let me mention that this book (sorry, no idea if there is a German edition, Danny) by Thich Nhat Hanh is a very good attempt to make this ancient model of the mind/human psychology relevant to modern times.

Thank you, Jundo, for your recommendation and explanation.

There seems to be no German translation, though it is often hard to tell, as titles are changed unrecognizably (and the English title not always mentioned).
There is a translation of "Transformation at the Base".
Personally, I'm afraid my mind would only substitute the perceived "Is my English too bad?" obstacle with a "Maybe this translation is not good?" one... :)

I accept these difficulties and mind games as part of my practice.
(And I've read too many German translations of great English fiction that, comparing the two, had lost all its wit and flavour in translation.)

I was interested in the Trimsatika, because Ben makes them the foundation of his interpretation, before adding he might just be a fool.
So I thought, let's look what these important verses are.


7

The thinking consciousness also arises with the mental factors
Of touch, awareness, recognition, concept, and desire.
This consciousness ceases when one becomes realized.
It also falls away when consciousness is impaired,
And when one is fully present.

Hey, there is room for all!! [morehappy]

And deep bows to Sekishi (again), who pacified my malfunctioning radio with TNH when I tried showing it to him the other day.

Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

Byrne
05-10-2015, 05:58 PM
When "the situation is free of inside, outside, and in between," consciousness is transformed from "something that experiences suffering into something that does not." In this practice space, compassion and loving kindness have a place to express themselves. Otherwise, there is too much energy directed at my problems, keeping what is mine, and protecting me. This includes not becoming overly attached to "inside" (internal practices), or on all the common ways that can be found to suffer ("outside"). "In between" states are simply confusion. "We are shaped by our mind," are words to live by and to accept their veracity. Getting to know the nature, essence, and energy of our minds is so worth the time and effort it takes because then we can train the wild creature and make it a useful companion. Most of the time we are not only separate from others, but separate from understanding ourselves. What a shame when we have so much to offer ourselves -- and the world. ^ForestSat Today^ - CatherineS

That's wonderful Catherine. Thank you. I really enjoyed this chapter and I've been reflectingn on it a lot. I get so much relief from sitting that I sometimes fall into a trap of using sitting to avoid my problems in the external world. No good. For that I must sit so that I don't sit when I should not sit.

Gassho

Sat Today

Ansan
05-11-2015, 01:50 AM
Thank you, Jundo for your recommendations! I had forgotten about the seeds and am now gathering and pulling and reseeding and nurturing. Sorry to be so remiss in responding to this wonderful forum. Old and young friends visiting have been a joy and time flies too quickly inside, outside and in between.

Gassho
Ansan

SatToday

Theophan
05-12-2015, 01:41 AM
Thanks Everyone.
I learned a lot and appreciate your responses and recommendations.
Gassho
Theophan
Sat Today

BrianW
05-12-2015, 02:35 PM
Hi all,

Jundo mentioned above that Thich Nhat Hanh’s discussion of psychological terms are a bit dated (e.g., Freud.) A more current explanation of the nature of “planting consciousness seeds” can be found in Jim Hansen’s book “Buddha’s Brain.” Hansen is a neuropsychologist and gives similar recommendations to Thich Nhat Hanh’s, but with a neuropsychological take. Clip below is nice intro to Hansen’s basic ideas.

Gassho,
Jisen/BrianW


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpuDyGgIeh0

Nindo
05-12-2015, 05:54 PM
I found a couple of different translations. No idea how accurate they are

http://lapislazulitexts.com/tripitaka/T31_1586

https://wutai.wordpress.com/2008/02/13/trimsatika-thirty-verses-of-vasubandhu/

-SatToday

Here are a few more links, maybe for linguists :)

http://plumvillage.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/thirty-verses-vasubandhu-sanskrit-english-viet-chinese.pdf

https://thebuddhistcentre.com/system/files/groups/files/thirty_verses_trans.pdf

and one with commentary:

http://wwzc.org/dharma-text/only-knowing-commentary-vasubandhus-trimsika-karika

Gassho
Nindo
s.t.

Byokan
05-13-2015, 04:29 PM
From the book:
Here’s an odd thing: if we turn to look inside and focus on seeing thoughts and emotions rather than being caught by them and believing the stories they tell us, those very things that we thought were us, our self, or our “inside” become objects of our consciousness, things that we observe. They are now “outside.”

Outside of what? And what were they originally inside? This is the puzzling kind of question that arises as we “turn the light around to shine within,” as Shitou instructs later in this poem.
Inside, outside, and in-between... where are these places? Relative to what? All are delusion. There’s no There, there. Me, not-me, and the space between me and others -- delusion. This thing, that thing, and the separation between them -- delusion. Reality, delusion, and the boundary between them... oh, hmm, uh... mega-delusion??

No need to tie yourself in knots trying to map it out. You can never make a map that accurately defines the terrain of inside, outside, and in-between, because you, yourself, are part of all those things, and they are all you. All flow into and out of and around each other, manifesting Emptiness.

And yet, there appears to be some kind of landscape here. So what do you do without a map, “when the situation is free of inside, outside, and in-between?” You navigate what’s there. You climb the mountain or go around, cross the stream or float down it. Put one foot in front of the other, avoid the quicksand, look for firm footing, and give a hand to the person coming up behind you. Pay attention to the sun and the landmarks and the weather. Take the pebbles out of your shoes and keep your socks dry.

I so love this line of Ben’s, at the end of the chapter; really it took my breath away:
“He’s soft asleep in the afternoon while the ants check to see if he’s washed his bowl.”

This makes my heart smile! As he lives gently, in accordance with nature -- inner nature, outer nature, in-between -- so nature itself supports his practice. Beautiful. Everything is enlightened together.

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

RichardH
05-13-2015, 07:35 PM
The Yogacara model has always felt like just that, a model, made to fit. It is real-enough (once made) as a subtle object and workable device, but not in the sense of something discovered, like the bend in a creek or a seam of gold, that could be said to be there, somehow, regardless. If it was put forward as a conceptual device it would not seem so iffy, but it seems (in my limited knowledge) to always be put forward in ontological terms. It also gets a bit fudgy with the impermanent permanence of the seeds.... there is nested it-ness. or so it appears. I just can't embrace it except as an interesting conceptual exercise.

As far as subjective and objective poles of awareness goes. There is a first hand basis for seeing things that way, but when subjectivity is traced back to the subjective pole, (after bringing to awareness subtle objects previously cloaked in identification) both poles collapse , and both subject and object go "poof". .... but talking about that is probably a geeky indulgence, so please take it with a grain of salt. Take all with a grain of salt. :)


Gassho
Daizan


sat today