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Jundo
04-26-2015, 04:55 AM
Dear Ones,

This week is Chapter 5, "Who Is This Person?" ... The Person In The Hut Lives Here Calmly ...

I have a little peccadillo in my writing, when expressing a taste of Emptiness, Wholeness, Non-Self, of switching pronouns from "me, you, she" to "one" and such ...

One gets very far, one finally arrives ... by one's sitting still.

Chinese and Japanese are lovely for much Zen writing, as the personal pronoun is not always needed, and one just knows from context ("I'm Sitting Zazen" in Japanese is often expressed as simply "Sitting Zazen", with the actor implied from context or very subtly not needed).

Here is an experiment that I would like everyone to try for a day or as much of a day as one can: In one's thoughts, replace "I" and "me" as much as possible with "One" or with no personal pronoun at all ... for example, "I am hungry" would become "One is hungry" or "am hungry". "I am going to work" would become "One is going to work" or just "Going to work". "My hair" is now "One's hair" or just "hair". Do this, as much as one can, with all one's thoughts, and report back here whether it softens up the sense of a fixed personal self a bit.

It is just a crazy experiment, but I want to see ... I mean, "One wants to see" ... what happens for every"one". [monk]

Gassho, J

pinoybuddhist
04-26-2015, 08:16 AM
Can definitely relate with the Japanese doing away with personal pronouns part. This will be an interesting experiment.

Gassho, Raf
This one sat today

Roland
04-26-2015, 12:21 PM
I can relate to the exercise., yet there is another 'me' having deep problems with it. Also, I think formulas such as 'These thoughts are not me, they are not mine, they are not myself' are something very deep, yet again they make me feel afraid. After all, the belief in the importance of 'me' (however impermanent) and of the individual helped us in the West to be creators and innovators, to combat totalitarian regimes, taking personal responsibility and upholding humanistic values. Negating the 'I' and 'me' risks making us part of a culture oriented towards assimilation and obedience to the collective (in reality obedience to some authoritarian persons). Yet again, while sitting, I get it why one should say 'one'. So, 'one' is very confused here.

Gassho
Roland
#SatToday

RichardH
04-26-2015, 12:48 PM
I/me can just be a signifier.. This body and mind. I/me in the social sense brings up resonsibilties and dignities. But mostly I/me is about self centered melodrama where "I" am the star. It sneaks up like sleep with the language. It's an addiction. This seems to be what Jundo is talking about.

Gassho
Sat today

Jundo
04-26-2015, 12:56 PM
After all, the belief in the importance of 'me' (however impermanent) and of the individual helped us in the West to be creators and innovators, to combat totalitarian regimes, taking personal responsibility and upholding humanistic values. Negating the 'I' and 'me' risks making us part of a culture oriented towards assimilation and obedience to the collective (in reality obedience to some authoritarian persons). Yet again, while sitting, I get it why one should say 'one'. So, 'one' is very confused here.

Gassho
Roland
#SatToday

Perhaps one should stop thinking of this as an "either/or" proposition ... that either there is a "me" or there is not.

This is one of the perspectives perhaps seen one way out of one eye, another way out of the other eye, both together Buddha Eye.

One can be "I" and not at once as one.

Gassho, J

Shingen
04-26-2015, 01:03 PM
Thank you Jundo ... one will embark on such experiment. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#justsat

Roland
04-26-2015, 01:56 PM
One will look in various ways out of one and the other eye, thank you Jundo.

Gassho
Roland
#SatToday

Kyonin
04-26-2015, 02:20 PM
Hi Jundo,

I have done an experiment like this before and it gives a totally new way of seeing things. Instead of thinking "I am hungry", I replaced it with "there is hunger".

I learned that by removing the self from our inner dialog, life becomes bigger in the way that one can see that (for instance) hunger is not mine to feel, but it is felt by all living beings.

This week I'll try your experiment and I'll report back. Oh and of course I'll get back to post about this week's chapter.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

Myosha
04-26-2015, 03:31 PM
Participating.


Gassho
Myosha sat today

Jishin
04-26-2015, 04:21 PM
"hunger"


Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_ :)

Jishin
04-26-2015, 04:46 PM
Ululating yell.

Beat chest.

Me Jishin.

You Cheeta.

Hunger.

Banana?

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_.


:)

Risho
04-26-2015, 05:21 PM
Interesting! One will do and report back.

Gassho

Risho
-sattoday

Joyo
04-26-2015, 09:17 PM
Will do, after one has a nap :)

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

Shingen
04-27-2015, 12:04 AM
A quote from a Led Zeppelin classic ...


And if you listen very hard
The tune will come to you at last.
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLg0TjaL8yY

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

Jishin
04-27-2015, 01:44 AM
“All for one and one for all.”

― Alexandre Dumas, The Three Musketeers

Gassho, Jishin
#SatToday

Ansan
04-27-2015, 04:14 AM
One has not been aware of thinking using a pronoun. One will attempt awareness of such and report back. Nice experiment!

Gassho
Ansan

SatToday

Jinyo
04-27-2015, 04:56 PM
Neat - will try and report back.

Gassho

Willow

sat today

Byrne
04-27-2015, 06:33 PM
Jundo,

This exercise has been amazing. Removing the I and me from the thoughts caused me to consider the wider scope of the feelings I was having. Thinking "Feelings of irritation" rather than "I'm feeling irritated" had me thinking about the chain of events and feelings that led me to that state. It's as if the "I" was anchoring the sentiment down, making it difficult to see beyond the immediate experience. What was even more revealing is when I removed the "you", "he", and "she" from my dealings with other people. My wife wasn't feeling well yesterday and was a bit irritable. She got a little snappy and instead of thinking "she's irritated" I just thought "irritation" separate from her or me. Some of the causes for the feeling suddenly became very clear and obvious. I started to talk to her with that perspective in mind and both her and my irritation started to dissipate pretty quickly. It brought out a compassionate side in me and her as well. I'm going to keep trying this out in different situations.

I used to tour Japan and Taiwan every year with a punk band. I studied the Japanese language a bit and got a very very very basic grasp of the mentality that goes along with how the language is structured. Doing this exercise I wondered if perhaps English's need for pronoun is actually a boon to this exercise. Since we aren't used to not using them, taking them away seems to change the meaning of the statements. But from practicing it, the meaning hasn't changed at all. The meaning of the feeling is the same, but not being distracted by the pronoun reveals how unfixed and impermanent the feelings are. The context of an experience is expanded beyond my own selfishness. Thank you very much for this. I'm very excited to see what I else I discover.

Jundo, do you think Japanese speaking people experience something similar from not using pronouns like we do? Or is the implication of the self in the grammar is as much a hindrance as using them?

Gassho

Sat Today

Jundo
04-27-2015, 06:40 PM
Jundo, do you think Japanese speaking people experience something similar from not using pronouns like we do? Or is the implication of the self in the grammar is as much a hindrance as using them?

Gassho

Sat Today

Hmmm. Well, Japanese society is certainly more group oriented, and individuals tend to assert their independence and personal needs/wants less. That is certainly reflected throughout the Japanese language.

Gassho, J

Rich
04-27-2015, 08:26 PM
This is related.
SAT today

Desire for Fame





The problem of “I, my, me” mind is that it looks for happiness but finds only temporary satisfaction. It is unstable, weak and easy to destroy by external, impermanent circumstances. Fame easily becomes infamy. Success easily becomes defeat. Attachment to and constant desire for them make our minds crazy, never satisfied and always hurting others.

That's why Buddhism instructs us to meditate correctly and get insight into this old “I, my, me” habit. It is originally empty and doesn’t exist outside the deluded mind. When we realize its emptiness and delusion, desire for fame—and all other desires as well—lose their power and control over our lives. Dissatisfaction turns into complete mind. Our true self doesn’t need any acclaim or applause. It is always here and now, present and ready to help and love others. Then all beings reflect and return our love, and we are already bodhisattva celebrities without even knowing or being concerned about it. That’s correct fame!


Excerpt from Desire for Fame: Unsurpassed Humility by Andrzej Piotrowski JDPSN

Ansan
04-28-2015, 03:40 AM
When I first tried to replace "me, my, I, myself" with "one," it felt very odd and, stiff, like a Victorian elitist. I went to bed with that. I don't normally say my thoughts out loud, but I found it easier to do so. Fortunately, my husband removed his hearing aids. "One is tired", I said, trying out various phrases. Then "tired." Sleep is a wonderful erasure of small-minded thoughts as well as an enhancer. I awoke to realizing that letting go of the attachment to self in this manner was extraordinarily liberating. One began speaking to Panda, Bamboo and Retes, the animals in the household. Listening to the sound of the voice as one fed them, one became even more aware of the present. Writing like this is disconcerting but the experiment is working. In preparation for Zazen, "one is just sitting" became a very powerful mantra. This experiment resounded especially because of the current reading from "Opening the Hand of Thought" by Uchiyama Roshi.

The use of "the" instead of "my" has the same effect. Recently, "my" computer has been deleterious, promoting thought provocation and irritation. When "my" was replaced with "the", the computer no longer was a threat. It was just an it. One realizes that so much of the mind's secretions (Uchiyama's usage of that word is effective and memorable) are empty and loses all power. One feels clumsy at first but when it retreats to the thought process only, perhaps then one won't feel too inhibited with words. Perhaps the usage of Kanji without Kana and Hiragana might be the reason that pronouns are not used and are so effective as ideograms.

Yes, it is softening the fixed personal self. Softening as in becoming but not yet there.

Gassho for this teaching,
Ansan

SatToday

Jika
04-28-2015, 04:45 AM
One has a text translation problem over here...
:)
When Ben is quoting the "not me, not mine, not myself" advice, what is the difference between "me" and "myself"?
I can only come up with translations as an emphasize of "me, in person" ("Please, don't try it without me, I want to see it myself!").
Probably not necessary to get each word to see what the whole thing is about.
But then, would be interesting to understand the detail.
One is hoping "my" train won't be late.

Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

KellyRok
04-28-2015, 12:48 PM
This one is a slow learner, needing time to truly let things trickle and sink in. One feels this activity should be worked on for a whole week.

Shall keep one posted...

Gassho,
Kelly/Jinmei

Nindo
04-28-2015, 03:14 PM
When Ben is quoting the "not me, not mine, not myself" advice, what is the difference between "me" and "myself"?


Me = Ich
myself = Selbst
??

Gassho
Nindo

Byrne
04-28-2015, 03:27 PM
I don't want to get into any political debates, but for all y'all in other countries, there are very violent protests in Baltimore MD right now over an endemic problem of police violence against black people. The media and many people are watching the footage and saying, "Those people are committing violence" and I'm seeing that what would be better is if people watched it and said, "There is violence." Without the personality attached to the act, we are prompted to ask why and consider what is happening from more than one narrow perspective and inject a little much need compassion and humanity to a debate that sparks intense emotions. Looking only at the specific people is such a distraction from the real pain and suffering that is happening.

This is turning out to be a very profound lesson.

Gassho

Sat Today

Ongen
04-28-2015, 09:29 PM
What a charming experiment. One will participate.

Gassho

Ongen
Sat today


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ernstguitar
04-29-2015, 08:49 AM
Hi Byrne,


I don't want to get into any political debates, but for all y'all in other countries, there are very violent protests in Baltimore MD right now over an endemic problem of police violence against black people. The media and many people are watching the footage and saying, "Those people are committing violence" and I'm seeing that what would be better is if people watched it and said, "There is violence." Without the personality attached to the act, we are prompted to ask why and consider what is happening from more than one narrow perspective and inject a little much need compassion and humanity to a debate that sparks intense emotions. Looking only at the specific people is such a distraction from the real pain and suffering that is happening.


yes, I agree (the austrian self :-))

and I would like to ask you something,
Jundo: "could you put in the text from the book you are discussing? I do not get the book in german. So I just have an idea of the text you are speaking."

The "I" is an idea, without that......"I try to do the experiment" is an Experiment with the I. There are a few significant intuitions: borderless, ego-less (nothing to show others), boundless (there is just one reason we´re alive: giving, but also like mentioned before: no inner Dialog, or not so loud.

Gassho,
Ernst

sat today

pinoybuddhist
04-29-2015, 06:36 PM
Hmmm. Well, Japanese society is certainly more group oriented, and individuals tend to assert their independence and personal needs/wants less. That is certainly reflected throughout the Japanese language.

Gassho, J
There's also that Japanese proverb about the nail that sticks out getting hammered - an admonishment not to stand out too much.

When conversing in Japanese one gets accustomed to not using personal pronouns so one hardly notices it after a while.

Interesting thing tonight: the daughter was getting on this one's nerves so this one started asking silently "who is this that is getting irritated?" That feeling of being irritated was still there, but now it was just one of those weeds growing on the hut.

Gassho,
Raf
Sat today

Jundo
04-29-2015, 07:13 PM
and I would like to ask you something,
Jundo: "could you put in the text from the book you are discussing? I do not get the book in german. So I just have an idea of the text you are speaking."

Hi Ernst,

I cannot copy the sections for many reasons, but some is available in bit and pieces at Google Reader ...

http://books.google.co.jp/books/about/Inside_the_Grass_Hut.html?id=c5BFAwAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y

Gassho, J

SatToday

Nindo
05-01-2015, 12:20 AM
When Ben is quoting the "not me, not mine, not myself" advice, what is the difference between "me" and "myself"?


Hi Danny,
this is actually a standard formula that the Buddha used over and over in various sutras.
This article (http://www.tassos-oak.com/extras/triple_formula.html)is a decent explanation, although not written by a Buddhist scholar. (Jaja, you knew I would dig up something, didn't you? :reading:)

Ernst, the book is available at Amazon.de. Did you mean you cannot find a German translation?

Gassho
Nindo
off to sit today

BrianW
05-01-2015, 05:45 PM
Reminds me a bit of the Bill Murray movie “What about Bob?” Bob, played by Bill Murray, takes a stab at solving his mental health issues by “taking a vacation from his problems.” Taking a break from the “I”….”me” … “me” ….”mine” can be refreshing. “I” find that “my” biggest issue is talking to myself about a conversation I will have with someone and going over and over my story. We are in a narrative and we do have to be mindful of it, but to be aware that we are “rehashing” and to mindful that chances are we will really never get our story right anyway is good medicine. There is an “I”, but it’s not really clear what “I” is and to hold on to such mental constructions lightly is of great benefit.

Gassho,
Jisen/BrianW

Risho
05-01-2015, 08:26 PM
There's also that Japanese proverb about the nail that sticks out getting hammered - an admonishment not to stand out too much.

And this is where one disagrees. lol But it's completely subjective and based on one's culture.

One named Risho has poorly executed this experiment, but this is certainly something to be practiced by experimenting with how to do this more effectively. The experiment certainly has proved its point, and one will continue :)

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

Jishin
05-01-2015, 10:15 PM
Spring is completely spring and not summer. Summer is completely summer and not spring. I is completely I and one completely one. When I is complete it can not be dropped off and substituted for one and one substituted for I. This I is the universal Eye observing itself from one I point of view. Who is this person? Eye. :)

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

Myosha
05-01-2015, 10:24 PM
Spring is completely spring and not summer. Summer is completely summer and not spring. I is completely I and one completely one. When I is complete it can not be dropped off and substituted for one and one substituted for I. This I is the universal Eye observing itself from one I point of view. Who is this person? Eye. :)

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_


I EYE AYE!! [dizzy]


Gassho
Myosha sat today

Jika
05-04-2015, 05:24 PM
Hi Danny,
this is actually a standard formula that the Buddha used over and over in various sutras.
This article (http://www.tassos-oak.com/extras/triple_formula.html)is a decent explanation, although not written by a Buddhist scholar. (Jaja, you knew I would dig up something, didn't you?

:) I was hoping so.
I'm impressed it seems even understandable for me...
Need more time with this.

Thanks a lot, Nindo!

Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

Kyonin
05-04-2015, 06:59 PM
Hi guys.

Lately I have been thinking about how we construct the illusion of self and how much we need it to give us our personality and goals in life.

Who is this person? Who lives in the hut? We all live here, in this universe clinging to the stories we tell ourselves.

I found the experiment of removing I from my speech very interesting. It made me feel pretty weird at first because Spanish is custom made to focus on the self. You can't say more than a couple of words without using I in any of its forms.

After a few hours I felt liberated. It was like something inside got free from a chain. Then more hours passed and I felt a nice connection to things and persons around me. It was hard and tiring because I had to be mindful in my speech and thought, but it was interesting.

The words us, we, all were easier to say.

I wonder how the world would be if we used more WE instead of I.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

Kaishin
05-04-2015, 07:01 PM
I have doing this as often as I can remember and have so far laughed at my own ridiculousness quite a few times already. Thank you.

-SatToday
Kaishin

Nindo
05-04-2015, 08:15 PM
"Who am I" has been a very good question/ koan to sit with, for me. It has helped me in several ways, although none are easy to explain.

When I set myself the task of writing a poem every day in April, I noticed how much "I" the results contained. Of course that is natural, because the easiest point to spring off from in poetry is direct experience. I find it interesting when editing a poem to ask, "do I need this "I" here? How else can the experience be expressed?"

Gassho
Nindo
sattoday

PS You are welcome, Danny!

Byokan
05-04-2015, 09:55 PM
Hi All,

Thanks every”one” for sharing your experience. I used to do a form of meditation, where you simply name things as they come up: “remembering,” “itching,” “planning,” “pain,” etc. I found that after a while it spilled over off the cushion. I started to say “impatience,” “tired,” “angry,” “happy,” in my daily life. Doing this, and this week doing it more deliberately and with more attention, is a very rich practice.

This week was stressful and emotional, with unexpected houseguests here, and a dear friend whose marriage has ended packing up and moving away. This is “my” current story. Being able to stop and name what was happening without grasping on and identifying with it, was a lifesaver. Instead of “Agh, I’m totally stressing out, I’m so overwhelmed, etc,” it becomes, “Ah, here is stress. How can it be minimized?” or “Oh, feeling overwhelmed, maybe it’s time to ask for help, or lower the expectations, or take a mini-zazen break.” Or just “Sadness.” Nothing to do, just watch it arise and feel it, and watch it move on as the next thing arises. Sadness arises as my friend is leaving; it’s natural, it’s appropriate, it’s ok. It’s not a crisis or a tragedy to grasp on to and make “mine,” nor does it need to be avoided or pushed away. When it was time to leave, she said that my remaining calm, and the time we just breathed deeply for one minute together when she was stressing out, really helped her get through what she had to do. So it carries forward for others near us as well.

In the book Ben talks about removing the pronoun and how it makes space for not knowing. I like that a lot. Also I think taking all the “I, me, mine ” self-talk out of things makes space for other things to arise.

For instance, anger arises. Instead of getting all carried away with telling myself the story of “my” particular anger, and why it’s justified, and whose fault it is, and what I’m going to say, over and over... I can say “Anger is arising.” And it’s bigger than me. Everyone feels anger. Now there is connection with everyone who ever felt angry. In the space that would have been filled with telling myself my story, now maybe compassion can arise, for all those angry people, and the one that “made me mad,” and for myself too. Maybe some lovingkindness and patience is found. Maybe it’s easier to think clearly about what action to take next.

Likewise, lets say happiness arises. Without the identification, one is just tapped in to all the happiness in the world. Without the me story, maybe there is room for great gratitude to arise as well, maybe humbleness arises, maybe generosity. There is room for it; it’s not crowded out by my efforts to hoard and hold on to "my" happiness. You start to genuinely share and feel happy for others’ happiness too. How awesome is that.

And eventually maybe those lines between good and bad start to get a little blurry. The quality of “just this” arises. Just this... Experience it... Act accordingly... Let it go. No need to hold on at all. Just surfin’ the waves, sailing the boat, swimming freely. :encouragement: Really, this is available for us all the time. Isn't it funny how we chase our tails instead. Wishing for us all to find that ease and grace.

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

Byokan
05-04-2015, 10:21 PM
George said it pretty well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFR2rnSoT28

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

Rich
05-04-2015, 11:42 PM
A great Zen teacher once said that the nature of suffering is having I,my,me. No I,my,me - no suffering.

It's being attached to this mental construct of I,my,me that causes a problem.

Sat today

Ernstguitar
05-05-2015, 07:58 AM
Hi Nindo,


Ernst, the book is available at Amazon.de. Did you mean you cannot find a German translation?


yes, I look for a german translation. It doesn´t make sense to read things like this not in the native language. Basically I do a lot in english.

Gassho, Ernst

Jika
05-05-2015, 09:16 AM
I can relate, Ernst.
I often find my mind looking for the level at which it gets stuck:
Don't I understand enough English?
Don't I know enough of all the re-translated multicultural historical background?
Or am I just stuck like hitting a wall that does not exist.
A bit of all and nothing, one watches smiling.

Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

Anshu Bryson
05-05-2015, 10:03 AM
This is something I have been contemplating for some time. Not only the sense of having a fixed personal self, but the odd, lifelong process of manufacturing a 'persona'; something that sits over, and perhaps effectively masks, a more 'true' self. So, for me, it was a case of figuring out 'which' self it was that I had a sense of in the first place... So, in my efforts to drop that sense of self, I found that I was actually dropping the false persona. I discovered a very different self behind the mask. Now I need to figure out how to drop THAT one as well, dagnabbit...! :)

Gassho,
Anshu

-sat today-

Kyonin
05-05-2015, 11:49 AM
Thank you, Lisa.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

RichardH
05-05-2015, 12:12 PM
When I'm sitting on the cushion, thoughts of self and no-self can pause. Then it is simple.. no self or not-self, this or that. here or there. That bright "simple" is where things...existential questions, are settled at their root. Then ordinary self is more transparent.. not so heavy.

but take this with a grain of salt.

Gassho
Daizan

sat today

Jika
05-06-2015, 04:42 PM
Nindo's link was very helpful to me.

I think during the last week I've experienced some of the effects created by use or lack of personal pronouns:
When simply "washing the face" instead of "my face", I felt more kindness and releave towards my own body, dropping the stories.
Just being careful in the moment, accepting what is.

When visiting friends, I was unable to compare "my" taste for home decoration with "theirs".
Would they like visiting "me" or find my rooms shabby?
Simply enjoying being together in the living room, things are easier.

Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

ForestDweller
05-06-2015, 07:36 PM
How coincidental! My husband and I just started a practice of dropping off "my" and "mine" from our conversations. So "My pain is bad today" becomes "Pain is bad today." Likewise, "That dog is mine" becomes either "That is dog" or "That dog is" Already this change has had the effect of lightening up the sense of possession of persons and things which leads to greater freedom. ^ForestSatToday^

Jishin
05-10-2015, 01:12 PM
Dear Ones,

This week is Chapter 5, "Who Is This Person?" ... The Person In The Hut Lives Here Calmly ...

I have a little peccadillo in my writing, when expressing a taste of Emptiness, Wholeness, Non-Self, of switching pronouns from "me, you, she" to "one" and such ...

One gets very far, one finally arrives ... by one's sitting still.



Here is an experiment that I would like everyone to try for a day or as much of a day as one can: In one's thoughts, replace "I" and "me" as much as possible with "One" or with no personal pronoun at all ... for example, "I am hungry" would become "One is hungry" or "am hungry". "I am going to work" would become "One is going to work" or just "Going to work". "My hair" is now "One's hair" or just "hair". Do this, as much as one can, with all one's thoughts, and report back here whether it softens up the sense of a fixed personal self a bit.


Who is this person?

Come on man. Quit Jundoing.

Just Jishining :)

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_