Is the pope secretly a buddhist?

[Ongen]

I could not help seeing some Dogen shine through :)

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/world/pope-francis-issues-blistering-critique-of-vatican-bureaucracy-1.2158180

Gassho

Vincent

Sat today


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Joyo]

He very well could be. Looking back, I think I was a Buddhist long before I even realized it, so anything is possible. :)

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Cumminjd]

Perhaps every Buddhist is The Pope?

Gassho,
James
Sat Today

[Mp]

Perhaps every Buddhist is The Pope?

Gassho,
James
Sat Today

[claps]

Gassho
Shingen

Sat Today

[Jundo]

Well, there is quite a "Zen Buddhist Bureacracy" in Japan, Korea and China, where Buddhist institutions there and other places in Asia are "the Church", with many cliques and factions ... so maybe they do have much in common.

http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21587267-it-not-all-sweetness-and-light-biggest-buddhist-order-monkey-business

Monks or priests, Catholic or Buddhist, are just people ... and among all the many good monks and priests who are there with good motives, there are other people with more worldly motives. It has been so in all religions throughout history.

I will say that, in Japan, the individual temples are more independent of central control than in Korea, so there is generally less of a centralized bureaucracy here than there.

But I am afraid that the Japanese Zen institutions, both Soto and Rinzai, have also been very political. As you may know from history, even the two "factions" of the Soto Zen Head Temples in Japan, Eiheiji (Dogen's monastery) and Sojiji (Keizan's monastery) barely spoke to each other ... and played all manner of political games ... over the centuries. I won't even begin to go into the rivalries between different schools of Buddhism as a whole. Fortunately, most of that was (usually) non-violent in a Buddhist way, but I mention it so as to not imply that religious politics is somehow a matter limited just to other religions. Human nature is human nature.

Pages 82-84 here touches on the story ...

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=BnLOFwx1SpUC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=sojiji+eiheiji+dispute&source=bl&ots=6PM_tGuZYw&sig=aCb4qZFlsQm7XQ7jhs5qQsu-X28&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vtmnUKqeH6-ImQWC2YHIBQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=sojiji%20eiheiji%20dispute&f=false

It is all silly.

Gassho, J
SatToday!

[Ongen]

Thanks Jundo :) this is something I keep on being unable to get my head around.

James:
Perhaps every Buddhist is The Pope?

Haha yes!



Gassho

Vincent




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kyonin]

Hi all,

There's a lot to say about Pope Francis and much of it is good. He is giving some fresh air to centuries of stagnation and he is moving people into making the Catholic church adapt to modern times and science.

Criticizing bureaucracy seems like another little step forward in his plan to give Catholicism a better image.

Not bad, in my humble opinion.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Myosha]

Hello,

If Buddhism is a healing art; recognizing and removing suffering - then, yeah, HH has a chance.

Thank you for the link.


Gassho,
Myosha sat today.

[Jishin]

I think a Buddhist practices the philosophy of enlightenment. If so, does he do it secretly? Beats me. :)

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Risho]

I have a jaded view of religion. Whenever I see the Pope I sort of roll my eyes. I'm sure he can do good or give hope to others; I just don't subscribe to the notion of some hierarchical restriction to wisdom; well if you call what he's selling wisdom.. mwahahahah. That's just my humble opinion.

Gassho,

Risho

[RichardH]

Imagine a Christian seeing a Buddhist expressing some wisdom and compassion, and saying maybe he's secretly a Christian?

I didn't enter into Buddhist practice because Buddhism is the best, better than the rest. It was because there was a recognition that the Buddhist stream is in these bones, and that somehow it was like coming home. Somehow the Buddha's way is patterned like this brain. Maybe if things were different I would have chosen practice in a Christian contemplative stream. I've met Christians no less wise than the wisest Buddhists.

If I think being a Buddhist means raising it above other traditions then what have I become?

Merry Christmas :)

Gassho
Daizan

[Byokan]

Hi All,

Daizan has a very good point. We should definitely avoid that kind of divisive thinking.

But I don’t think Vincent meant to compare in that way, at least that’s not how I read the original post. I took it as just pointing out the similarities between what the Pope said, and Buddhist teaching. For instance the part about gossip threatening “the harmony of the body,” sounds like the precept we just studied about gossip harming the Sangha. These truths are universal; it’s about human nature.

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

[Ongen]

Hi all,

Daizan, of course you are correct! But that was not my point.

Lisa explained it well, I was just happy to hear some - in my eyes - sensible and honest words from an institution (not talking about the faith here) that has been about self-enrichment and politics mostly for maybe as long as it exists.

I am glad there is someone at the head of the catholic church now who can maybe bring back to the vatican some of the values their faith stands for and many of which we share with them in buddhism too.

This pope is doing a lot for mutual understanding between faiths and practises already, but this just took it a step further and I bow to that :)

Gassho

Vincent
Who has to edit every post because he forgot to write Sat Today

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RichardH]

Thank you Lisa and Vincent. I realize you were speaking innocently and not in a sectarian way, Vincent. I guess I was more concerned about how it would be picked up and carried. Living in an interfaith (and interfaith/no faith) home and community, I'm a bit sensitive about the issue. While not believing in mushing things together in a new age fashion, Buddhism is Buddhism and Christianity is Christianity, I feel more and more the nameless heart from which they both spring.

Gassho

Daizan

sat yesterday forgot to post
sitting after presents and breakfast soon.

[bayamo]

In Pope Francis' Christmas message, read today at the end of Mass, he said 'We need silence to hear the voice of Love.'
Pretty cool if you ask me...

Oh yeah, if I didn't have inner peace, I'd completely go psycho on all you guys, all the time. Carl Carlson
#SatToday

[Joyo]

Imagine a Christian seeing a Buddhist expressing some wisdom and compassion, and saying maybe he's secretly a Christian?

I didn't enter into Buddhist practice because Buddhism is the best, better than the rest. It was because there was a recognition that the Buddhist stream is in these bones, and that somehow it was like coming home. Somehow the Buddha's way is patterned like this brain. Maybe if things were different I would have chosen practice in a Christian contemplative stream. I've met Christians no less wise than the wisest Buddhists.

If I think being a Buddhist means raising it above other traditions then what have I become?

Merry Christmas :)

Gassho
Daizan

I never thought of it that way, Daizen. You make some good points. Thanks for sharing.

And, Vincent, I agree that I don't think you came across in a sectarian sort of way. I know for me, because of my history, I can be pretty harsh when it comes to Christianity. Part of my practice is keeping my ego in check, so that is why I think Daizan brought up some good points.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Ongen]

While not believing in mushing things together in a new age fashion, Buddhism is Buddhism and Christianity is Christianity, I feel more and more the nameless heart from which they both spring.

Gassho

Daizan



Beautiful words :)

Gassho

Vincent

Sat today



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ishin]

hmmm I think I am going to have to go with a big NO on this one...

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1500093.htm

Full disclosure, I really like the the direction the new Pope is going, and my wife is catholic; we make it work. At the end of the day though, the Pope IS catholic.

And bears do poop in the woods too.

Gassho

Clark/Ishin

Sat Today!

[Ongen]

hi Ishin,

and so 'the monkey comes out of the sleeve' as we say in the Netherlands ;)
Gassho

Ongen / Vincent

[Troy]

Interestingly though, perhaps Buddha is (was?) a Catholic saint!

http://frimmin.com/2006/08/06/is-the-buddha-a-recognized-christian-saint/

Well, in a round about way at least :)

..sat2day•

[Myosha]

Hello,

Thank you for the link.


Gassho,
Myosha sat today

[Ishin]

Interestingly though, perhaps Buddha is (was?) a Catholic saint!

http://frimmin.com/2006/08/06/is-the-buddha-a-recognized-christian-saint/

Well, in a round about way at least :)

..sat2day•

That is very interesting Troy, thanks for sharing. I personally have found articles and theories that Jesus probably did study Buddhism at one point very interesting as well.

Gassho
Ishin

Sat Today! ( with all the saints)

[Geika]

Just glad to see some good work being done by anyone, really.

Gassho

Sat today

[Kyotai]

Just glad to see some good work being done by anyone, really.

Gassho

Sat today

well said..

Gassho, Kyotai/Shawn
Sat today :)

[Troy]

That is very interesting Troy, thanks for sharing. I personally have found articles and theories that Jesus probably did study Buddhism at one point very interesting as well.

Gassho
Ishin

Sat Today! ( with all the saints)

It is possible. I have researched this before. Here it goes to the best of my memory :)

There were well established trade routes between India and Rome during Jesus's time.

Greece and India shared embassies since the time of Alexander the Great.

If I remember right, it was Ptolemy III, who was king of Egypt prior to Jesus's life time, wrote about Buddhism and there is some speculation Buddhist festivals were celebrated there. In the Gospels, it says Jesus spent some of his childhood in Egypt.

Rome also shared embassies with India during 1st century Rome. In fact, a Buddhist monk immolated himself in Athens in Jesus's time and a memorial to him can still be seen there today.

Jesus also grew up near a cosmopolitan city along the trade routes. Jesus is said to have read the Torah in the synagogue indicating he was literate. Literacy was rare among the common folk which indicates he was well educated.

However...

There was a story that he visited India to study during his "lost years". That story was later debunked.

Jesus was clearly a devout Jew. His primary source of spiritual study was Judaism. It is likely he was also influenced, as the rest of the empire was, by Greek philosophy.

There is no direct evidence of Jesus studying Buddhism. While there are similar teachings, Christianity at it's core is not Buddhism.




..sat2day•

[Risho]

Troy -- agreed. In reading Zealot, it's actually quite the opposite; scholars have very good reason to think that Jesus was likely illiterate. Also, it was quite common during that time period for a lot of people to claim they were the savior. It is a very, very interesting read.

I don't want to be divisive, but I"m not going to avoid truth because I'm afraid of illustrating differences that do exist. I get very wary when people start combining religions and saying they are all the same. That is simply not the case; at a high level a turd and a filet mignon look the same, but it's not very useful or accurate to call them the same; and I'm sure you'd have quite an enlightening experience if you ate a turd thinking it was the latter. lol I'm not calling anything a turd here, by the way; the word just came to me. lol

I think there can be a tendency to gloss over differences or to reach for sameness where that sameness is just being used to push an agenda. Sure there is sameness in some sense, but unless Buddha took Jesus Christ as his savior and believed in a soul, and got baptized etc, etc, etc let's get real.

I'm sure I'm taking this way too far, but I just don't like this mixing. It's a disservice to all religions being compared in this manner.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

Edit-- my beliefs have really changed significantly since practicing Zen. I'm just trying to state my case; I don't mean to offend anyone who does believe in a soul, etc. That is not my intent.

[Ishin]

I would just simply argue that both religions, regardless of what REALLY happened, may in fact be both far removed from what their founders taught. I think it is interesting to talk about the influences of the past, but it is only interesting, it doesn't serve to help our actual practice whether that be Christian or Buddhist or anything else. I do find the possibilities of different regions overlapping very compelling though. For example the beliefs of the Gnostic Christians sound alot like Buddhism, but that doesn't make them the same either.

In the end I think Buddha's advice on trying what works rings true :)

Gassho
Ishin

Sat Today

[Shugen]

And now for something completely different.....

I am rereading a book by Christopher Moore called "Lamb" that touches on some of these issues. It is completely irreverent and I found it very funny.

Gassho,

Shugen

#sattoday

Shugen

[Troy]

I would just simply argue that both religions, regardless of what REALLY happened, may in fact be both far removed from what their founders taught. I think it is interesting to talk about the influences of the past, but it is only interesting, it doesn't serve to help our actual practice whether that be Christian or Buddhist or anything else. I do find the possibilities of different regions overlapping very compelling though. For example the beliefs of the Gnostic Christians sound alot like Buddhism, but that doesn't make them the same either.

In the end I think Buddha's advice on trying what works rings true :)

Gassho
Ishin

Sat Today

Yes, agreed! :)


..sat2day•

[Troy]

Troy -- agreed. In reading Zealot, it's actually quite the opposite; scholars have very good reason to think that Jesus was likely illiterate. Also, it was quite common during that time period for a lot of people to claim they were the savior. It is a very, very interesting read.

I don't want to be divisive, but I"m not going to avoid truth because I'm afraid of illustrating differences that do exist. I get very wary when people start combining religions and saying they are all the same. That is simply not the case; at a high level a turd and a filet mignon look the same, but it's not very useful or accurate to call them the same; and I'm sure you'd have quite an enlightening experience if you ate a turd thinking it was the latter. lol I'm not calling anything a turd here, by the way; the word just came to me. lol

I think there can be a tendency to gloss over differences or to reach for sameness where that sameness is just being used to push an agenda. Sure there is sameness in some sense, but unless Buddha took Jesus Christ as his savior and believed in a soul, and got baptized etc, etc, etc let's get real.

I'm sure I'm taking this way too far, but I just don't like this mixing. It's a disservice to all religions being compared in this manner.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

Edit-- my beliefs have really changed significantly since practicing Zen. I'm just trying to state my case; I don't mean to offend anyone who does believe in a soul, etc. That is not my intent.

The Zealot is in my list. I got about three books ahead of it, but definitely on the list. Yes, it is possible Jesus was illiterate too. You know what they say. You get 23 scholars in a room and ask them who Jesus was and you will get 23 different answers, lol! :)


..sat2day•

[Troy]

Shugen, I had not heard about the "Lamb" before, but sounds like could be funny :)


..sat2day•

[Jishin]

. Also, it was quite common during that time period for a lot of people to claim they were the savior. It is a very, very interesting read.
.

Very common for people to claim that they are the savior today during hypereligiosity/manic episodes for people with bipolar disorder.

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Myosha]

Hello,

"Lamb" is the tits (which was my wife's nickname at New York City Ballet, because . . . never mind).

Good read. Thank you.


Gassho,
Myosha sat today

[Shoka]

I am rereading a book by Christopher Moore called "Lamb" that touches on some of these issues. It is completely irreverent and I found it very funny.

I can put in another vote for the Lamb, it is a really fun read. And while completely fictional with no claim to facts, is a great reminder that we don't know all the facts and probably never will.

I really agree with Amelia,


Just glad to see some good work being done by anyone, really.

Gassho,

Shoka

Sat Today

[MikeTango]

Thank you Shugen for the reading suggestion.
I read the first pages of Lamb and it really seems an interesting fiction.
A lot of things to think about. As Shoka said: we don't know all the facts and probably never will.
Gassho
Miguel
#Sat Today