What Buddha felt while "zazening" to achieve Satori?

[Kyosei]

Hi friends,

I was thinking...

Is there any Sutra (or Sutras) on which the Buddha describes what he felt during the time he meditated to achieve Satori and what was his mental attitude when he felt the feelings/thoughts/desires coming in (as Mara's "temptations")?

Whats it´s title?

Gasso,

Marcos

[Jundo]

Hi Marcos,

Well, really, EVERY Sutra is about that, is it not? In each the Buddha expresses his vision of Enlightenment.

But one must always ask, "WHICH Buddha?" and which way of meditation and expression of Enlightenment? Truly, the Buddha is said to have spoken in so many different ways for different folks, from South Asian "Hinayana" to North Asian "Mahayana" to Tibetan "Vajrayana". (Zen Buddhism, of course, is one of the Mahayana schools, but even there one finds such great variety. In reality, all of the Sutras were written by different authors long after the Buddha's time, so all express the author's vision of the Buddhist Path ... sometimes very different, yet just the same).

So, one can then take a Zen approach and say ... the only Sutra and Buddha that truly matters is the one written by you on your Zafu, a Zafu transcending "you" and "yours" and Buddha and Sutras,

Gassho, J

[Taigu]

no Buddha, no Sutra, nobody but YOU!!!

gassho

T.

[Rich]

Marcos, you are the buddha so ask yourself but if you want to hear other opinions on this, TNH does a good job in some of his books like 'Walking in the footsteps of the buddha'

[Kyonin]

no Buddha, no Sutra, nobody but YOU!!!

gassho

T.


Thank you, Taigu.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Jundo]

It is worth pointing out that many Sutras are cherished and often quoted in Zen Practice, and Dogen's writings are wall-to-wall "playings with" Sutra passages and stories. A passage on poo that I mentioned on another thread today is a perfect example, chock full of his messing with old references (from page 37 here):

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=uEha2IZzgVsC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=dogen+unintentionally+stepped+on+a+dried+turd&source=bl&ots=aPJ0lFdjVS&sig=5R3guvEM9xMxrkJnYGc5MzMoWgc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HsjmUbWQEYelkwWKyYGIBw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=dogen%20unintentionally%20stepped%20on%20a%20dri ed%20turd&f=false

That poo passage, by the way, expresses in poetic image precisely what "Shakyamuni experienced" as experienced by Dogen's experiencing ... transcending the sacred and profane. Certainly, Mara is the poo.

Some of the cherished and often quoted Sutras include the Heart Sutra, Diamond Sutra, Lotus Sutra, Vimalakirti Sutra and (to a lesser degree) Lankavatara Sutra. However, we do not get caught in their words and philosophy. We do not get tangled in their often conflicting assertions and varied views (to be expected in so many inspired obras written centuries after the historical Buddha by inspired, and varied, human authors). Perhaps they are like songs, parables, poems and paintings. We pierce through the Teachings they hold, and all becomes clear.

How?

Why, Zazen of course!

Gassho, J

[Myosha]

Thank you for the insight.


Gassho,
Edward

[Joe]

I don't think I'd want to know how the Buddha felt while sitting, or how any of you feel while sitting. At least for me I think it would get me thinking about how I SHOULD be feeling, and while sitting we're supposed to drop should and should not. I think I'll take the ignorance and sit with/as that.


Gassho,
Joe

[Kyosei]

I don't think I'd want to know how the Buddha felt while sitting, or how any of you feel while sitting. At least for me I think it would get me thinking about how I SHOULD be feeling, and while sitting we're supposed to drop should and should not. I think I'll take the ignorance and sit with/as that.


Gassho,
Joe

I don´t know.

Then, what is the difference between follow what a Sutra *may* told you how you should behave or proceed behavioring like established by someone (like the "Fukanzazengi") for example...? Is this "ignorance" we should obtain really ours?

I´ve read about a Sutra... think is on Theravada (I´ve read it on a book by Thich Nhat Hahn), in which the Buddha tells he controlled his thoughs closing his teeth firmly, isn´t it a procedure...? a "cookbook" I mean...?

Just wondering about that.

Gassho,

Marcos

[Kokuu]

Marcos

I think there is a great difference between following meditation instructions (or a recipe) which contain reliable methods, and attempting to control the outcome of feelings or taste. Hopefully, if we follow the instructions correctly, the end result can be trusted but is still a different experience to what the other person achieved.

Suttas such as the anapanasati sutta (mindfullness of breathing sutra) and satipatthana sutta (sutra on the four foundations of mindfulness) are indeed cookbooks for meditation practice, at least a certain kind of meditation - vipassana. Likewise Uchiyama Roshi, Gudo Nishijima and others have set out instructions for how to practice zazen. What they don't tell you is what it feels like. That is for us to discover.

Is what you are looking for more like instructions on how to deal with difficult thoughts and emotions such as Buddha experienced with Mara? Uchiyama Roshi has this to say about thoughts:

"You might try looking at all the stuff that comes up in your head simply as secretions. All our thoughts and feelings are a kind of secretion. It is important for us to see that clearly. I've always got things coming up in my head, but if I tried to act on everything that came up, it would just wear me out. Haven't you ever had the experience of being of being up on a very high place and having an urge to jump? That urge to jump is just a secretion in your head. If you felt that you had to follow every urge that came into your head, well..."

-- Opening The Hand of Thought, p16.


Gassho
Andy