SPLIT THREAD: Zen & Catholicism [Archive]

Daitetsu

05-09-2013, 01:56 PM

NOTE FROM JUNDO: I MOVED THIS TO ITS OWN THREAD.

I am sorry to be the party pooper here, but IMHO Zen and Catholicism are not compatible – at all!
In order to make them compatible, you’d have to modify them so much that you couldn’t call it Zen or Catholicism anymore…

I used to be a Catholic, read the Bible completely and studied Christian Theology intensively for years. I talked with priests and other people in that system.
Catholicism is based on dogmas – when you don’t believe in these dogmas then you are not a Catholic per definitionem.

Catholicism is based on some dogmas that define it, e.g.:
- The belief in a God who created the world and still actively intervenes in his creation – we are talking about a theistic belief (i.e. God who is still active) as opposed to a deistic belief (i.e. a God who does not intervene and is completely passive).
- The belief in the original sin that is inherited by every new born child. Because of Adam’s and Eve’s original sin (you have to believe in them as well as a Catholic) every new born human is automatically a sinner as well (so much for fairness).
- The belief that Jesus Christ was the actual son of God (and whose mother was a virgin) who died on the cross to reconcile God with humankind.
- The belief in a real heaven/hell (as opposed to a mere metaphoric one) and the devil
- The ethical basis of the Christian belief is completely different from Zen: as a Christian you follow the commandments because they come directly from God, the highest authority. This is a hierarchical structure – not just within the church.
- And let’s not forget those little weird things like the belief that during the Holy Mass the wafer and wine are actually turned into the real flesh and blood of Jesus Christ (for Protestants this is only symbolic, but according to the Vatican, the head of the Catholic Church, this is not just symbolic, but real!)
I could go on and on…

You might be able to combine Zen with the belief in a deistic god and maybe with some types of theistic beliefs (but this already gets quite difficult if you don’t want to believe totally contradictory things), but Catholicism? No way, sorry folks, you can’t do that without twisting the Catholic tenets – and if you do that it’s not Catholicism anymore.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to do a "Catholic bashing" here, but the differences are vast and it is always easy to find a few common denominators with any philosophy.
IMHO Zen is not something that can be combined indiscriminately with everything - there is no use to say otherwise just out of fear to get on the wrong side of somebody...

Gassho,

Timo

Rich

05-09-2013, 03:01 PM

I don't have a problem mixing buddhism and catholicism and my interpretation of some of the bible sayings match my zen thinking. Have attended buddhist/catholic retreat workshops with zen masters and priests leading them together. I see the problem as many early catholic practices and teachings have faded and many of the priests are lost in ritual. Timo, had to speed read your post because I'm on my way out and will give it more time later, but the thing that pops is the difference between symbolic and literal interpretation. Practitioners of buddhism are very similar in this respect.

Hans

05-09-2013, 03:12 PM

Hello Timo,

revisiting this topic shows me how much my Zazen practise has changed my own experience (I wouldn't even call it a view anymore) of this topic in the last few years. I have some laundry stuff to do now, but will write a bit more later. This is just to say thank you for sharing your own current views with us so openly.

Gassho and all the best,

Hans Chudo Mongen

Jundo

05-09-2013, 03:33 PM

Hi,

I was not raised Catholic (not with a name like "Cohen" http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu330/cthulhu19887/smileys/jewish_flag_smiley4.png ), but allow me to offer some perspectives on how Zen Buddhism may be perfectly compatible. Mind you, it takes an open mind on all "sides" of the issue to find the "sideless" side. Zen, especially Shikantaza, is a radical allowing of "what is" whatever the "is" is. So ...

- The belief in a God who created the world and still actively intervenes in his creation – we are talking about a theistic belief (i.e. God who is still active) as opposed to a deistic belief (i.e. a God who does not intervene and is completely passive).

If God intervenes (assuming there is a "God") ... Just Sit, chop wood and fetch water. If God does not intervene (or there is no "God") ... ... Just Sit, chop wood and fetch water.

- The belief in the original sin that is inherited by every new born child. Because of Adam’s and Eve’s original sin (you have to believe in them as well as a Catholic) every new born human is automatically a sinner as well (so much for fairness).

Sinner or no, original or not ... ... Just Sit, chop wood and fetch water. Just do as one can to abide by the Precepts ... not to kill, not to steal, not to covet one's neighbors wife (misusing sexuality), and all the same.

- The belief that Jesus Christ was the actual son of God (and whose mother was a virgin) who died on the cross to reconcile God with humankind.

If Jesus died for our sins and his mother was a virgin ... Just Sit, chop wood and fetch water. If Jesus did not, and his mother was not ... Just Sit, chop wood and fetch water.

- The belief in a real heaven/hell (as opposed to a mere metaphoric one) and the devil

Buddhists have had very literal beliefs in "hells". Many Buddhists traditionally did (still do!) believe in rebirth in heavens or hells based on volitional actions (Karma) in this and past lives. Some of the descriptions of "Buddhist Hells" are as hellacious as anything in Western imagination (although the images seem to have developed independently) ... complete with pitchforks and brimstone ... look here. Not for the squeemish. I have seen similar images here and there at temples in China, Japan, Thailand and Korea ... images that would make any Fire & Brimstone preacher in the Bible Belt faint. Just like in the West, images of "hell" were often used by Buddhist preachers to get people to "be good". WARNING: 18 and OVER

https://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&biw=1745&bih=868&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=buddhist+hell+temple&oq=buddhist+hell+temple&gs_l=img.3...15916.17342.0.17922.7.7.0.0.0.0.107.4 90.6j1.7.0...0.0...1c.1.6kyHCwPWJ54

I personally am a skeptical, but open minded, agnostic on literal, mechanical models of rebirth. It is not vital to my practice. But I do believe ... and see all the time ... people who make very terrible "hells" for themself and others in this life through their actions in this world. As I often say ...

If there are future lives, heavens and hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

And if there are no future lives, no heavens or hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

Buddhism also has an image of "the Devil" ... the tempter "Mara" who, in the old Suttas, is often seen trying to lead Buddha off a good course. Does Mara exist literally? Well, like Kannon as a symbol of Compassion who exists through us and is "made real" when we choose our actions and whenever we do something caring and beneficial to others, Mara likewise exists through us when we do something harmful through the temptations of greed, anger and ignorance. In the sense, yes, they are real because compassion and generosity and selfishness and hate all exist as "real forces" in this universe as humans make them real through our words, thoughts and acts.

- The ethical basis of the Christian belief is completely different from Zen: as a Christian you follow the commandments because they come directly from God, the highest authority. This is a hierarchical structure – not just within the church.

Yes. Now, whether from On High or not ... don't kill, don't steal.

- And let’s not forget those little weird things like the belief that during the Holy Mass the wafer and wine are actually turned into the real flesh and blood of Jesus Christ (for Protestants this is only symbolic, but according to the Vatican, the head of the Catholic Church, this is not just symbolic, but real!)

Take Communion ... don't take Communion ... in any case, Just Sit, chop wood and fetch water.

By one interpretation, the Buddha never quite meant that there "was not a Creator" or "not not　a Creator". It was more that it is not important to his Insight. Many of the images we encounter in Buddhism are not different really ... Vairocana Buddha is the Universal Buddha of All Reality, the Dharmaskaya ... and Amida Buddha (Pure Land and Zen co-exist and have merged in much of Asia) is a figure who, if one merely has faith in him, will take you to his heaven when you die.

So, I must disagree.

I sometimes say that one can practice Zen Buddhism while also a Republican, Democrat or apolitical, Catholic, Jewish or Muslim, Atheist or Agnostic. I would say that, so long as it is a belief system that avoids hate, violence, excess greed and such (e.g., a "Zen Buddhist Nazi" will go a dark way), all can mix.

I see the problem as many early catholic practices and teachings have faded and many of the priests are lost in ritual.

The same could be said of the vast majority of Zen Temples I have visited in Japan.

Gassho, J

Juki

05-09-2013, 03:53 PM

My problem with the whole hybridization of Zen with other religions is more fundamental. Zen is a branch of Buddhism, and in Buddhism, we seem to have at least two elements of the Dharma that are incompatible with an omnipotent creator god. The first, to me anyway, is the element of interdependence or interbeing. If we are truly all connected, this seems to weigh against the god of the Abrahamic traditions. Because a god would be outside that circle of connectedness, intervening and managing his creation. We cannot say everything is connected, except for this supreme being. Which brings me to the second element, the element of impermanence.

To rebut my argument regarding interbeing, one could say, "well, everything is connected through god." However, that would make god subject to the same laws of impermanence as everything else.

Of course, this could all be due to me making huge fundamental misunderstandings of the Dharma.

Gassho,
William

Daijo

05-09-2013, 04:25 PM

I think I am less passionate about this because I have no background in ritual Catholicism. I think it becomes more of a problem for people who do, which I can understand. But I would suggest, "let it go".

I do see your point, they are completely incompatible.

But I also see Jundo's point, they are completely compatible. Chop wood and fetch water.

Daitetsu

05-09-2013, 04:26 PM

Hi Jundo,

Thanks for your perspective on this and your examples!

You argument (naturally, as you are a Zen teacher) mostly from the Zen side.
However, if someone is a Christian, they will have difficulties accepting Buddhist concepts like “illusion of self”, “interconnectedness of all things”, etc.
IMHO Zen is totally embedded in Buddhism – I know there are people who think Zen can be somehow practiced without Buddhism (I used to be one of these people!), but with every month I practiced I saw that Zen and Buddhism go hand in hand together.

IMHO in one’s Zen practice there comes the stage when we leave Zen behind, when we leave Buddhism behind, when we leave Buddha behind. Everyone here knows the saying “If you meet Buddha on the road, kill him”. Tell a Christian “If you meet Jesus on the road, kill him” – Christians are not meant to finally leave their belief behind.

The main difference for me is that Christian belief is dualistic!
Sõtetsu Yüzen Rõshi said:
„The Christian teaching in all its concepts inherently leads to a dualism and absolutizes the opposites Creator – Creature. Nature – Man.”

When we sit, we ARE the universe. We are one. In Zen there is no thing in the universe that is not us. In fact, there is not even an “us”. There is just is-ness, beingness, pure and raw existence.
The Christian belief system on the other hand leads to all kinds of dualisms.

The main Christian tenet is that we humans need an external savior who saves us, and that we must believe in him in order to be saved.
At first there is the postulation: “You are a sinner!”
Then follows the next: “If you believe in Jesus, you can be saved!”
Except – there is nothing to be saved from!

For me Buddhism is liberation from our self-created suffering, because our views of the world are not congruent with reality.
On the other side, Christian belief tells us that we are all sinners who’ll burn in hell if we don’t believe in a savior.
This does not sound like freedom to me, but more like dependence.
A bit like giving a new born a crutch and make them believe they are not able to walk without it.

I know people will say that my take on Catholicism it too literal. However, it should be considered that without some certain basic tenets everything would be interchangeable. You cannot immunize a belief against criticism by making it totally arbitrary.
When we talk about Catholicism we have an authority for this who tells what dogmas are to believed in: the Vatican.
As soon as you interpret too much, you don’t have Catholicism anymore, but a kind of patchwork belief made of personal opinions.

Gassho,

Timo

Jundo

05-09-2013, 04:41 PM

I think, to quote Taigu, we need to put it all down, throw everything away ... all the "can'ts", and "this is incompatible with that" ... because you are yourself making this "dualistic".

Inside, outside, permanent or impermanent ... you are making this.

True "Non-Dualism" is beyond and right through-and-through so-called "dualism" or "non-dualism", monotheism or deism or atheism or ism-ism. It is so "Non-Dualistic" that it does not even care if there is one or two or both or something else! [scared]

God, Gods or No God, Pope or Nope, Rain or Shine, Sickness or Health ... we don't care (even if they care and say "impossible"), we sit As What Is.

If there is a God and Jesus, we Sit As So. Take Communion, Go to Confession if you feel so ... then pull up a Zafu.

I will go so far (and I rarely say this) as to call it a complete misunderstanding of Zen Practice.

Stop building walls. Just have a cup of tea.

Gassho, J

Juki

05-09-2013, 04:52 PM

Accepted. Thank you.
Gassho,
William

Jundo

05-09-2013, 05:16 PM

I will point out that, on the Asian continent (not so much in Japan for various historical reasons), Zen and "Pure Land" Practice ... which involves worship of a Messianic figure in the form of Amida Buddha who takes one to Heaven at death for having faith in Him ... have been completely mixed and merged together for 1000 years or more. The parallels to Christianity are often so uncanny that it makes me feel that such beliefs ... and the need for many to have a "Savior" and "Pie In The Sky When We Die" ... may be hardwired into the brain.

All the doctrinal gaps and seeming inconsistencies between so-called "Inner Power" Zen and so called "Other Power" Buddhism as in Amida were worked out, basically by saying that inner is outer and outer is inner ... and anyway, what is "in" or "out"? Amida and his "Pure Land" Heaven "stand for something beyond words ... so we cannot say exactly what even if felt in the heart.

A whole bunch of Catholic Priests ... mostly Jesuits ... have been also Ordained as Zen Roshi. So, seems it must be possible to somebody ... when the barriers are dropped away ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kennedy_(Jesuit)

http://sweepingzen.com/fr-patrick-hawk-roshi-dies-at-69-guiding-teacher-of-the-zen-desert-sangha/

Me? I don't practice particularly with Jesus or Amida or Thor ... but neither do I push them away. If there is a Thor or Spaghetti Monster in the Sky, I will sit as them.

Gassho, J

PS - Haven't heard from Fr. Kryllos and Fr. James, who sometimes visit here. I should drop them a line.

Nengyo

05-09-2013, 05:56 PM

The parallels to Christianity are often so uncanny that it makes me feel that such beliefs ... and the need for many to have a "Savior" and "Pie In The Sky When We Die" ... may be hardwired into the brain.

I agree. I think there is something hardwired and it is way stronger in some people versus others.

A whole bunch of Catholic Priests ... mostly Jesuits ... have been also Ordained as Zen Roshi. So, seems it must be possible to somebody ... when the barriers are dropped away ...

Those Jesuits are a crazy bunch. Knowing some of them practice Zen doesn't surprise me at all. I grew up in a catholic part of the country and while my exposure to priest was very limited, the Jesuits seemed to be the most adventurous of the bunch (academically at least)

Me? I don't practice particularly with Jesus or Amida or Thor ... but neither do I push them away. If there is a Thor or Spaghetti Monster in the Sky, I will sit as them.

Thor? I'm sure he appreciates you sitting with him. He was probably getting a little lonely! haha

Daitetsu

05-09-2013, 06:24 PM

Kyonin

05-09-2013, 06:25 PM

I used to be very aggressive on these kind of topics. I was a very active atheist for many years and had a great share of suffering for not being able to eradicate Christian religions from the face of the planet. Under that optic, Buddhism couldn't mix with any theist religion at all.

Yes, I was young and dumb.

What do I think now?

I don't mind other religions. As a matter of fact I can see beauty in most of them.

Can Buddhism and Catholicism be mixed? Sure. You can take what works for you and be a person of reason, tolerant and peaceful.

Would I mix them? No. I'm happy being a plain Buddhist.

At the end, for me it all comes down to sitting.

That's all there is, really.

Gassho,

Kyonin

Daijo

05-09-2013, 06:40 PM

Those damn Zen teachers! Always appearing to contradict themselves.

Which reminds me, I have sat in a secular zendo led by Sensei Ray Ruzan Cicetti a former Jesuit and dharma heir to Roshi Kennedy in the White Plum lineage who practice a sort of Soto/Renzai hybrid.

Then there's the wonderful music of Leanard Cohen, fully ordained in the Renzai tradition from the now sort of infamous Mt. Baldy Center. He lists his religion as Jewish.

Jundo

05-09-2013, 06:48 PM

Hi Jundo,

I don't think that Zen is a kind of "anything goes" practice.
I find it a bit strange that you have "dismissed" (that's not quite the verb I have been looking for, but I'm no native speaker) teachers/teachings in the past, that are in fact very close to Zen, but something that is much further away is supposed to be compatible...
You say (for example) that while certain Rinzai practices are fine, they are not "our practice here", but then you say that a dualistic system like Christian belief can be practiced together with non-dualistic Zen Buddhism.
You use to say something like "that is Aikido, but we practice Judo" when it comes to practices that are actually not that far away from Soto Zen, but on the other hand you claim that I take on a dualistic view just for pointing out some decisive differences between Zen and Christian belief. I could do likewise as soon as you say that Rinzai is different from Soto - according to your very own argumentation you would create walls and introduce dualism! But pointing out differences is not the same as building walls.

The thing is, while Rinzai and Soto have overlappings, both practices are not possible at the same time, and while Catholicism and Zen have (very, very) few overlappings, they are not compatible either. You cannot say there is no self, and at the same time claim you have an immortal soul that will go to heaven (or hell) after death.

Personally, I don't like to put people into drawers, but it just does not make sense to say a finger is the same as an ear.

Gassho,

Timo

Hi Timo,

That is a very good point.

I don't think that I ever said that one cannot practice "Rinzai" and "Soto" Zen at the same time. Many do (including all the Sambo Kyodan/Harada-Yasutani derived Lineages that are so prevalent in the US ... Maezumi Roshi's line, Aitken Roshi ... including both those Priests I mentioned). You can. You can engage in Koan Introspection sometimes, sit Shikantaza sometimes.

It is just that we do not practice that here, in our Sangha ... and neither do I Practice Judaism or Catholicism or Atheism or Advaita or Football here, where we practice Shikantaza in Master Dogen's way. If someone wants to spend too much time discussing or advocating Christianity or Advaita here, I ask them to take it outside after awhile. However, one can practice Shikantaza and football (when not sitting), and so the others too.

I think some "teachers" out there like Deepockets Chopra (and "Chuck Genkaku Johnzen Roshi":)) are phony or conmen. I am personally agnostic or quite skeptical (to the point of not believing) on many questions ... from a "personal God" to "literal rebirth" ... but I never say that I have the exclusive insight on those things, and always say that ... if there is a "personal God" or "rebirth as devas or spiders" ... I can sit with it all. Likewise, all my years of Zen Practice have not given me the power to know if it will rain or be sunny tomorrow ... but rain or sun, I can sit with/as such.

I believe that certain Practices are incompatible with Zen Buddhism ... Nazism for one. One could actually be a kind of "Zen Nazi" (some have been), but the hate and violence takes one to a very dark place. That was not the Buddha's message of Peace ... a message shared by most religions (or, better said, by most people in most religions. We have a few hate filled Buddhists too).

Gassho, Jundo

Jundo

05-09-2013, 07:02 PM

You cannot say there is no self, and at the same time claim you have an immortal soul that will go to heaven (or hell) after death.

By the way, those Buddhists who believe in "literal rebirth" found ways to explain away that conundrum about how there is no "soul" but "you" nonetheless go on. As I said, MOST Buddhists believe that "you" go to heavens or hells or some other destination when you die. It is not as clear cut a difference between traditional Buddhism (including Zen Buddhism) and Christianity as you believe.

MyoHo

05-09-2013, 09:23 PM

Hi everyone,

A few months ago I joined Treeleaf and as a Christian of the orthodox protestant neck of the woods, felt very much the same as you Timo. But the fact is, Zen is not about that. It’s about life here, right now. Live life and live it well. Just this.

I would like to contribute to this thread in answer to the points Timo stated.
Cathilicism and Potestantism again differ greatly in oppinion. Lots of 'isms' so let's stick to the general term. Christianity has a great tradition of mediation and many practitioners of Zen. But there are also some great Zen minds who are also Christian. They must be doing something right?

I for one believe in Jesus who teaches us to love others the way we (should) love ourselves. Loving is accepting the way it is. At least I think it is. So nothing to add, nothing to change, nothing to gain or lose because someon/ it already is/was perfect. Creation at one point is/was perfect. Loving/ accepting who you are is a huge task. Zen helps me to do this with the tool of shikantaza and a different formulation of the same rules to live by. One has 10 the other 8. Both say the same thing. Loving/ accepting others (and all things) in the same way as you love yourself and put this love to action without even the selfish need to still label it love. Zen is a tool, the Way in service of the Way.
Even more so, you, me and all around us are all the same to Him ( Jesus), because they are not three.

Surely there is hardly a better example of someone who had to deal with the dogmatic extremists of his time, than Jesus. Why? Because he was teaching something that did not sit well with people who drew power and authority from imposing a dualistic view of the world. The commandments became a tool for humans to suppress humans instead of a way to live life well.

I have no problem at all in being an active Christian and seriously studying Zen. I go to Church and later happily sit on my Zafu to practice. Yes! You, me, everything ( not three) is all worth dying for and I find peace in the fact someone actually voluntarily did! But that is just me and for me a good way of looking at it. If someone else has another vieuw on things, that is just fine. Different flower, same beauty.
Now let's go sit, chop wood, fetch water like Jundo said. Keeping it real is hard enough, but thats OK :D.

In conclusion this:
The early church had a strong meditation tradition ( not contemplation, meditation) that was dropped along the way for practical reasons.
Early Christians called themselves students of ‘the Way’
In Christianity today, meditation is coming back strongly. This because more and more Christians think faith is not just an intellectual thing.

A question that already got me into debate several times is this: what was Jesus doing when he went to the garden in Getsemaneh or some other quiet places on a regular basis, for long periods of time? Modern translations says praying but the old texts are not so clear. Interesting no? Herretic? What do you guys think?

Sorry for the lengthy post guys. I had to shorten it already and hope it still makes some sense.
Sorry Jundo and Taigu for talking football at the tennis practice. I’ll shut up now.

Gassho

Enkyo

Onken

05-09-2013, 09:30 PM

This has been mentioned before, but there is a specific Catholic priest named Robert Kennedy who is also an ordained Zen Buddhist priest. I vaguely remember him stating that Zen Buddhism has helped him understand Christianity better and brought him closer to God. Both preach compassion and IMHO can co-exist to a point.

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Buddhism/2002/02/God-And-Zen.aspx

Daijo

05-09-2013, 09:57 PM

Jiken

05-10-2013, 01:47 AM

Really cool post. A deep discussion on belief. A catholic believes this. A zen buddhist believes this. In my observation the conflict is with a person who has attached themselves to the belief. When you pick a side then another side can be chosen and naturally conflict arises. There can now be right and wrong and the war of conceptual ideas rages on. Should we believe in nothing? Can we believe in nothing and something at the same time? Beyond nothing and something. Catholicism and Zen they are compatible and they are not compatible. Therefore they are compatible. Throw the beliefs away and there is nothing to compare only harmony.

Thank you for this thread.

Gassho,

Daido

Rich

05-10-2013, 02:08 AM

Hans, thanks for your informative and entertaining speech.

Sitting morning and evening and relying on the precepts as a guidance is a good boat to travel in to the other shore.

Whatever you practice or call yourself, I think its important to travel (act) with peace and compassion.

Nameless

05-10-2013, 02:11 AM

Compatible, incompatible; what does it matter really? As long as what someone believes allows them to feel at peace with themselves and the world around them, to be kind and open to others than it all amounts to the same thing the way I see it. I read the Buddha saying somewhere, "All is my Dharma." Every belief or practice that is liberating to you, is the Dharma, so it is "right" and pure.

I was once a devout Roman Catholic. Went through most of the sacraments. I was even an altar boy for awhile and found a great sense of well-being when I was performing the rituals. Once, during communion, I had a vision in which I was sitting in a vast, beautiful and ancient temple. I have had similar experiences during zazen (never focusing on them, merely letting them go). I read the bible a few times, the New Testament many times, and found a lot of goodness within it. I no longer believe in Jesus, but I still do admire and respect the idea of the man.

After Catholicism, I went on a tour of the religions of the world and found that the story of Jesus is in a way just a different slant on a man finding enlightenment and then trying to bring those who were suffering to the "other shore." I mean, not everything I've read in the bible is in sync with Buddhism, but it doesn't really matter. Form your own personal understanding and if it guides you well then, for lack of better words, it is good.

Gassho,
John

Jundo

05-10-2013, 02:39 AM

I just had a couple of folks write to me that they are considering to leave Treeleaf because of my statements in this thread. So, I wrote them this ...

I will add this, food for thought ... and non-thought.

If I said Zen and Christianity were incompatible, I might get some people leaving Treeleaf in confusion.

If I say they are compatible, I get people leaving Treeleaf in confusion.

To me, there is no confusion or compatible or incompatible. All are welcome to Treeleaf, and here we sit Shikantaza.

In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".

Gassho, Jundo

Jundo

05-10-2013, 03:11 AM

I think everyone on this thread talking about how rational Zen is traditionally compared to those "fire and brimstone" folks with their rules and their devils and such should read this other thread today ... on the Shurangama Sutra, very valued by many Zen folks ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10913-the-Garlic-and-Onions-blues&p=100772&viewfull=1#post100772

Heion

05-10-2013, 03:48 AM

Wow, this is a very interesting thread and I can't help but think I helped motivate this topic. Anyways, since all of the other points have been covered (and points I didn't even know were points), I think I have learned a lot about the similarities of Zen and Catholicism. Zazen is in Catholicism. A topic I would like to bring up (rather a generalization) is that I see a lot more Catholics practicing for more of a social benefit while Buddhists practice for a more personal wrong. Don't get me wrong, I know some Buddhist do this, but it seems many Christians have started shifting to eradicate the world of sin. They do not seem very content with their beliefs and try pushing them upon the world through politics, preaching, and other means. In my opinion, most Buddhist practice for a more personal gain.

Gassho,
Alex

:buddha:

Jundo

05-10-2013, 08:12 AM

I believe that the following is so vital with regard to Shikantaza that I will say it endless times ...

In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".

In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".

In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".

In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".

In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".

In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".

In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".

In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".

In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".

In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".

In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".

In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".

In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".

In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".

In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".

In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".

... for all is ultimately empty, and thus any belief system** is ultimately Compatible (Big "C") with Shikantaza.

If such point about sitting "beyond and through-and-through confusion, conflict and compatible (small "c")" is not clear, one is simply not Clear (Big "C") about Zazen.

Gassho, J

** absent anger and violence, greed and other harms as previously indicated.

Myozan Kodo

05-10-2013, 08:32 AM

Hi,
Thank you for this.

If we put on a different glove, do we feel the same elephant?

I was brought up a strict Catholic. Now Zen is my way. Sometimes I'll go to mass with my father. It makes him very happy ... and I don't mind.

Gassho
Myozan

Jundo

05-10-2013, 09:09 AM

May I also respectfully remind you that Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Atheist, Agnostic, Hindu, monotheist, dualist, non-dualist, male, female, gay, straight, liberal, conservative, moderate, Nazi, Peacenik, Buddhist are all labels and ideas we assume in this world of Samsara.

Our Way is a way beyond words, labels and ideas even while living in this world of words, labels and ideas. SO LONG AS LIVING GENTLY, IN KEEPING WITH THE PRECEPTS it is not really so important what labels or ideas we hold so long as simultaneously free of all labels and ideas. Some call that God, some Buddha, but what can one call the Uncallable?

One can Practice Zen as a man or woman, gay or straight, baker or candle stick maker (butcher raises some issue), so same for Catholic or Atheist or whatnot so long as piercing all such labels, ideas, categories, conflicts and limitations.

Gassho, Jundo

Daitetsu

05-10-2013, 09:21 AM

Let me first make some things clear, just to avoid misunderstandings:

1) I was not one of those members that contacted Jundo telling him I considered leaving Treeleaf (although this could be an option, I must admit).
2) I am not a “hardliner” or anything like that – far from it! In fact it took me a long time to finally commit myself to a path again. I still mix in stuff that I personally consider as “compatible” – some Mahayana practices like TNH’s pebble meditation now and then, Tai-Chi, some Qigong practices, Chinese Tea Ceremony, etc.
3) It is not my intention to belittle, ridicule or reject other religions – I accept them as long as they are peaceful.

Next I’d really like to thank Hans for his excellent video!
I really agree with most things he said.

Now to the BUT SECTION: ;)

Yes, during zazen we drop all thoughts/barriers/concepts.
However, zazen is still a Zen practice and thus deeply embedded in Buddhism. And while Jundo mentioned how diverse Buddhism is, this thread was basically about the Zen flavor and Catholicism – not Buddhism in general and Christian Belief in general!

So when Hans mentions correctly that some people like to keep their original background and pick and mix elements, and there is no absolute authority on what is right (what about the Bible though?), the matter is quite clear when it comes to Catholicism – they have an authority, namely the Pope/Vatican!
And Catholic dogmas are mostly contradictory to Zen practice.
Yes, yes, Zen seems to be contradictory in itself – however, there are still real contradictions in this world.
There is no such thing like a “pork eating vegetarian”. As a vegetarian you can mix certain fruits and vegetables without problems, but as soon as you eat meat, well, you are not a vegetarian…

Can a Catholic practice zazen? Sure, but (supposed he takes both paths seriously in an equal measure) eventually he will reach a point in his practice when he’ll feel an inner conflict and have to make a decision. Otherwise he’ll practice something like “bompu zen”, just scratching the surface of things.
Zazen is not just some kind of gymnastics for body and mind, but it is deeply intertwined with Buddha, Dharma and Sangha!
When you drop body/mind, there is no “Creator vs. Creation”, no “Nature vs. Man” – there is just oneness. Or in other words “You are god” (if you really can’t help using this term).
This does not get along well with Catholic doctrine, i.e. as a Catholic you will get into trouble…

Yes, the Jesuits – actually there were some that were muzzled by the Vatican in the past (e.g. Willigis Jäger in 2002, because the Pope at that time seemingly was not too amused by some of his views).

Can there be awakening outside Zen? Sure! Zen is just one path of many!
Can Zen be mixed with other traditions? Sure! As long as they are non-dualistic!
However, as soon as you introduce a dualistic element (like Catholicism) in a non-dualistic path – you end up with dualism again!
Like I said above, there is no such thing like a “pork eating vegetarian”. As a vegetarian you can mix certain fruits and vegetables without problems, but as soon as you eat meat, well, you are not a vegetarian…

To get back to Hans’ excellent video:
What do I trust? I trust zazen, I trust this practice.
However, I am not that sure anymore about other things here.
Do I completely misunderstand Zen Practice? I am pretty sure I don’t.
Perhaps I should quote the Dude (The Big Lebowski): “That’s just your opinion, man” [happy]

Gassho,

Timo

Myozan Kodo

05-10-2013, 09:38 AM

Hi,
When someone eats vegetables, they are a vegetarian. When someone eats pork, they are not. They are one or the other in the present moment.

My friend was a vegan for years. Now she eats meat. In one moment she is a vegetarian; in another moment she is a carnivore. If you take her life so far, as a whole, she is a pork eating vegetarian.

Gassho
Myozan

Jinyo

05-10-2013, 10:10 AM

Daitetsu

05-10-2013, 10:14 AM

Hi Myozan,

Hi,
When someone eats vegetables, they are a vegetarian. When someone eats pork, they are not. They are one or the other in the present moment.

My friend was a vegan for years. Now she eats meat. In one moment she is a vegetarian; in another moment she is a carnivore. If you take her life so far, as a whole, she is a pork eating vegetarian.

Of course I meant you cannot be both at the same time.
I used to be Catholic many years ago. Does this make me a Zen Catholic?
I know someone who was a Nazi when he was very young, but today he totally rejects this - he even fights vehemently against Nazism. Is he a Nazi forever for the rest of his life, just because he was it as a teenager?

I have never claimed you cannot change paths in your life - it is just that some paths are mutually exclusive to be practiced at the same time IMHO.

One thing I forgot to talk about:

In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".
Exactly! But as soon as someone sees practice this way, they already have left a dualistic path like Catholicism behind!
Dualistic paths are about differences - as soon as you drop these differences in shikantaza you have already left the dualistic path. And that's why Zen and Catholicism are mutually exclusive in the long run...
A Catholic who drops all differences of God, Man, Nature, stops being a Catholic in that instant...

Gassho,

Timo

Jundo

05-10-2013, 10:33 AM

And Catholic dogmas are mostly contradictory to Zen practice.
Yes, yes, Zen seems to be contradictory in itself – however, there are still real contradictions in this world.
There is no such thing like a “pork eating vegetarian”. As a vegetarian you can mix certain fruits and vegetables without problems, but as soon as you eat meat, well, you are not a vegetarian…

Can a Catholic practice zazen? Sure, but (supposed he takes both paths seriously in an equal measure) eventually he will reach a point in his practice when he’ll feel an inner conflict and have to make a decision. Otherwise he’ll practice something like “bompu zen”, just scratching the surface of things.
Zazen is not just some kind of gymnastics for body and mind, but it is deeply intertwined with Buddha, Dharma and Sangha!
When you drop body/mind, there is no “Creator vs. Creation”, no “Nature vs. Man” – there is just oneness.

Hi Timo,

Yes, the above is where we very much see not eye to eye. I do not find anything in Catholic Doctrine from the Zen side which presents a conflict (some Catholics, of course, may find a conflict from their side, but that is their problem). “Creator vs. Creation” or not, “Nature vs. Man” or not, or something else altogether – separation between man and god or no separation (or no "man" or "god" at all!) - no matter, all cool, what is just is, there is just oneness which holds all such options.

Yes, a pork eater is not a vegetarian. Yes, the Buddhist Precepts sometimes (a subject for another day) may point to eating carrots over cows. However, this Zen Way truly surpasses and embodies both carnivores and vegans, Catholics and Atheists and Silly Billies and everything else. In fact, it even comfortably holds those folks who see conflict between "Zen and Catholicism" and those who see not conflict, Jundo and Timo and Jesus and Buddha ... all held within the True Oneness without the least Conflict! [scared]

Uchiyama Roshi, who used to pepper his Zen Talks with reference to "God", wrote this as his Death Poem on his deathbed ...

Just Bow

Putting my right and left hands together as one, I just bow.
Just bow to become one with Buddha and God.
Just bow to become one with everything I encounter.
Just bow to become one with all the myriad things.
Just bow as life becomes life.

Such is True Oneness ... Oneness that is "Oneness" whether with one, two, three or noneness. :buddha:

(That being said ... in this Sangha we practice Zen Buddhism in the Soto Way, and not Catholicism. Someone must go to a Catholic Church or a Jesuit Roshi for that.)

Gassho, J

Myozan Kodo

05-10-2013, 11:03 AM

Gassho
_/||\_

Dokan

05-10-2013, 11:56 AM

Interesting thread. Too much for me, but interesting nonetheless. Thanks everyone.

Gassho,

Dokan

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

Nengyo

05-10-2013, 12:27 PM

I am so confused as to why people are so upset about this post. I was an evangelical christian for many years. I moved slowly to deist, then became a pure bred atheist and anti-theist. I even started my local atheist and agnostics organisation. For a while I combated theistic religions everywhere I found them. On forums, on facebook, but most of all in real life. I drove across states to debate people, to humiliate mobile creationist museums, and to support protest. Trust me when I say few people on earth hated religion more than I. And yet, I still found Zen Buddhism. I guess a couple years of Zazen has softened my stance. To me, any perceived problems are an illusion. If we think there is one inch of separation between us and the Christians or the Pure Land Buddhist we are still caught in the trap.

Perhaps some of this issue is that Jundo regularly stops digressions into forms of Buddhism that are close to ours, but encourages people who are Christians to continue their practice. The way I see it, this is a Soto Zen forum and sangha. We practice, discuss, and support each other on a foundation of Dogen's teachings. Sure, if you want to practice secret mantras, chants, and koans you can. Jundo certainly won't jump through your computer monitor to stop you. However, he cannot let those practices take over the forum anymore than he could let hoards of Catholics start inundating us with sacramental rites and saints to worship, mainly because he is a Soto Zen teacher. There are other forums and sanghas for that other stuff.

Of course I meant you cannot be both at the same time.

With each bite you are what you are. One, the other, both, and neither. We die and are reborn a million times per meal.

And that's why Zen and Catholicism are mutually exclusive in the long run...
A Catholic who drops all differences of God, Man, Nature, stops being a Catholic in that instant...

There are teachers in both traditions that think you are incorrect. That alone should give your certainty pause...

<The standard disclaimer; If I have misunderstood the issue, please disregard all. Also, take everything I say with a grain of salt. It is certain that I am wrong about most things and the degree to which I'm wrong remains a mystery.>

Daitetsu

05-10-2013, 01:13 PM

Hi Nengyo,

Thanks a lot for sharing your background and your view of things - I found both very interesting.
Actually, I agree with most things you said about our practice, but about

There are teachers in both traditions that think you are incorrect. That alone should give your certainty pause...
I must say there are also people from both traditions that would agree with my opinion.
And that's the keyword - it is an opinion.

I agree with so many things Jundo and Taigu say and teach at Treeleaf that it would almost be scary if I would not disagree now and then.
Nobody can always agree on everything, and that's fine. Wouldn't it be boring if it were just sunshine all the time?

So all in all, my opinion (and I know I am not alone with it) on this matter differs from Jundo's, but I accept it and I hope he accepts it, too.
And just to add a last disclaimer:
I have nothing against Christians or people from other religious backgrounds. I am not saying they are not supposed to practice Zen. All I say is that practicing both will probably lead to an inner conflict when practice deepens.

Thanks a lot for all people contributing to this thread, especially Hans and Jundo who put so much effort in it.

Gassho,

Timo

Daijo

05-10-2013, 01:50 PM

I think Timo is right.
I think Jundo is right.
And I do mean that. I completely agree that Zen and Catholicism are not peanut butter and chocolate. They are filled with clashing ideals about damned near everything. I also see clearly 100% that "in Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".

In the end though, in my ignorant view, what are zen and Catholicism if not just "ideals"? Doesn't this practice cut through all of that BS and go straight through and beyond the heart of those "ideals"? If there were to be some "reason" for all of this sitting on cushions. Isn't that it? To cut right through the illusion of not only Catholicism, Islam, Alchemy, Nazism, Nationalism, Communism, but also of our beloved Zen?

And I hope people will not leave treeleaf because of this. If they do, it's OK, I will sit with that too. I just hope those contemplating it will stop to think "Go where?" To that place where it's better? There is no place to go.

Jundo

05-10-2013, 02:26 PM

I think it just comes down to how one Practices: One can practice Catholicism and Zen with a harmonious interpretation finding common or transcending ground (some do), or find instead conflict (many do).

Perhaps some of this issue is that Jundo regularly stops digressions into forms of Buddhism that are close to ours, but encourages people who are Christians to continue their practice. The way I see it, this is a Soto Zen forum and sangha. We practice, discuss, and support each other on a foundation of Dogen's teachings. Sure, if you want to practice secret mantras, chants, and koans you can. Jundo certainly won't jump through your computer monitor to stop you. However, he cannot let those practices take over the forum anymore than he could let hoards of Catholics start inundating us with sacramental rites and saints to worship, mainly because he is a Soto Zen teacher. There are other forums and sanghas for that other stuff.

That is so. I may find Catholicism, Islam or Rinzai Practice (and many other ways) potentially harmonious with Soto Zen Practice ... but if someone takes up too much space around here talking about The Virgin Birth or Allah or MU'ing, I will point them to a church or mosque or Rinzai Roshi. As I often say ... Karate is a wonderful art, and Ai-ki-do is a wonderful art, and some folks may even combine the two (Kara-ki-do?). However, here in our Ai-ki-do Dojo we practice Ai-ki-do, not the others. Karate is great, but if someone comes on our mats and starts to practice Karate and not Ai-kido for too long, I point them to the Karate Dojo down the street and wish them well.

I agree with so many things Jundo and Taigu say and teach at Treeleaf that it would almost be scary if I would not disagree now and then.
Nobody can always agree on everything, and that's fine. Wouldn't it be boring if it were just sunshine all the time?

Oh, didn't I mention that Taigu and I are Infallible on all pronouncements of Dharma, and anyone disagreeing is subject to a "Treeleaf Excommunication"?

Beware the Buddhist Inquisition!

http://image.spreadshirt.com/image-server/v1/compositions/1659019/views/1,width=280,height=280,appearanceId=1.png/inquisition_design.png

Gassho, Pope Jundo I

Nengyo

05-10-2013, 03:55 PM

I must say there are also people from both traditions that would agree with my opinion.
And that's the keyword - it is an opinion.

Timo, of course it is just an opinion! It is the certainty with which we hold our opinions that I was referring to. Once we admit that some portion of our understanding may be incorrect it much easier to reach common ground. I agree with you that practicing both Christianity and Zen may cause inner conflict at some point. I only practice one and occasionally have inner conflict. I believe the saying goes , "great doubt, great faith, great effort!"

I enjoyed reading your point of view and my dismay was directed at those who would leave over this non-issue, not at you for having a differing opinion. To paraphrase what Jundo stated earlier; shikantaza is beyond opinion, dogma, compatibility, and any other concept.

I think Timo is right.
I think Jundo is right.
And I do mean that. I completely agree that Zen and Catholicism are not peanut butter and chocolate. They are filled with clashing ideals about damned near everything. I also see clearly 100% that "in Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".

Exactly!

And I hope people will not leave treeleaf because of this. If they do, it's OK, I will sit with that too. I just hope those contemplating it will stop to think "Go where?" To that place where it's better? There is no place to go.

Isn't there a koan about this exact situation? Something like; A monk wants to leave the monastery. The master says OK, but keeps telling him, "not that door" until the student gives up and just sits.

Nengyo

05-10-2013, 03:56 PM

Oh, didn't I mention that Taigu and I are Infallible on all pronouncements of Dharma, and anyone disagreeing is subject to a "Treeleaf Excommunication"?

Beware the Buddhist Inquisition!

http://image.spreadshirt.com/image-server/v1/compositions/1659019/views/1,width=280,height=280,appearanceId=1.png/inquisition_design.png

Gassho, Pope Jundo I

Poke him with the comfy pillow!

Genshin

05-10-2013, 04:45 PM

Well, I'll carry on sitting tonight facing the wall as I do every night, free from labels, goals and isms.

(although perhaps slightly more confused when I come off the cushion)

Gassho
Matt

MyoHo

05-10-2013, 04:59 PM

http://image.spreadshirt.com/image-server/v1/compositions/1659019/views/1,width=280,height=280,appearanceId=1.png/inquisition_design.png

Doesn't chuck Genkaku Johnsen Roshi have a crashcourse for that? With robe and all? Yeah, pretty sure along with a free Wich Trial home liturgy set, if you are one of the first five to order. :D

Jishin

05-10-2013, 08:46 PM

Jesus, the pope, and all the catholic followers are Buddhist. They just don't know it.

Gassho, John

Risho

05-10-2013, 10:36 PM

hahahhahah, nice John :)

I do believe Zen and Christianity are compatible.. well because I practice Zen and I'm a Christian :)

I've always been a Christian who didn't take beliefs for granted. I'm not going to argue magic or heaven and hell. I might as well argue about unicorns and leprechauns. To me the point is how we live this life now.

I'm a man of reason and science, which is why I really really like Zen. It's very scientific in the sense that you put your money where your mouth is and test and verify the Buddhis tenets through your practice.

So even in Zen there are beliefs. You have to have faith in the path and let it unfold. Really that faith is important. I can't tell you how many times I've had to kick myself in the ass to continue practicing and just letting myself have faith in this to keep going. Faith is just part of being human. No matter what we do, there is just a deep element of belief.

Gassho,

Risho

Taigu

05-10-2013, 11:03 PM

Thirty years ago I was friend with a young Christian monk and we used to sit in complete harmony beyond sameness and differences.

We are still sitting now.

Maezumi roshi used to say that God and Buddha were one
So did Deshimaru roshi
Trungpa insisted on the non theistic nature of Buddhist practice
You ll find Jesuit roshi
Zen catholics

Great variety under the sun

Who is right?

I am not my beliefs ( and I have many just like everybody else)I am not my thoughts about this and that
Throwing everything away
What is left?

Part of me is not very keen on Catholicism for I remember the of abuse by a priest as a child when I was brought up as a catholic, another part of me feels gratitude remembering the sweet and warm stories an old priest used to tell us.

In shikantaza, all of this vanishes.

If you want to run a crusade against catholics, this is definitely the wrong place. No crusades or holy war here.

If you d like a mix of Christianity and Buddhism to be taught here, wrong place too.

If you want to leave Treeleaf, you are certainly deluded for you cannot leave THIS. Nobody can.

Are you upset about this thread, rather than going up and about in your usual style, fuming and furious, STOP. LOOK at your inner irritation. Question it. Where does it come from? Why do you make such a big deal? Who is making such a big deal? Are you sure this is worth it? How would you be without that thought?

Take care and good practice

Gassho

Taigu

Risho

05-10-2013, 11:41 PM

If you want to leave Treeleaf, you are certainly deluded for you cannot leave THIS. Nobody can.

hahahah that is so true!!!

Heishu

05-11-2013, 01:47 AM

To leave or not,
where would I go,
but here.

Thank you Jundo and Taigu for Treeleaf.

Gassho,
Heishu

p.s. Never was considering a departure but was only echoing Taigu that I cannot leave this.

Jundo

05-11-2013, 02:29 AM

Let me present a little parable to explain my too simple feeling on this. (Symbol Hint: The "Golden Chair" represents "God") :)

Imagine sitting Zazen on a Zafu resting upon a Golden Chair, which holds and supports us.

Now, imagine sitting Zazen on a Zafu with the Chair sitting across the room, somewhat distant.

Imagine sitting Zazen on a Zafu with the Chair outside the room in the garden, hard to see.

Imagine sitting Zazen on a Zafu with no Golden Chair, never was one and never will be. (Atheism)

Or maybe you have doubts about whether the Golden Chair is there or not there. (Agnosticism, Jundo's approach)

Or, imagine that there is Only the Golden Chair, and everything ... you, the Zafu, the room, the garden ... rests comfortably inside it, in fact, IS the Chair.

Well ... where is there not sitting? How is sitting Zazen in any way prevented by where the chair is, or is not, or never ever was?

Someone might believe that the chair is all, or under us, or far away or never was here at all ... and such is just what is. Sitting. We Zen folks are fine where or however the Chair is, or there being no Chair at all.

Anyway ... while any of the above may or may not be true ... simultaneously, in the dance of Wholeness ... what separate you? what zafu? what room? what garden? what distance? what gold? what Chair?

I hope that helps. Big Theological Debates on the imminence or existence of God are no more important to Zazen than whether there is a chair in the room or not while sitting is sat.

... id be more interested in learning about stuff like working with universal energy (chi?), raising vibrations, etc. is stuff like this found in the tao or any other eastern thought that would be compatable with zen practice?

Hi,

I will tell you that, personally, I think that things like "universal energy/chi" and "raising vibrations" are a bunch of pseudo-scientific fooey and poppy-cock right up there with the Lock Ness monster. Having lived in Japan and China for much of 30 years, and experienced many so-called demonstrations of "chi/ki", I do not believe that "chi" actually exists, but that it is a traditional belief from before the time that there was an understanding of modern physiology, and people convince themselves that they can "really feel it". So, I do not teach such here at Treeleaf.

On the other hand, beliefs about Chakras, Chi and all that have been a part of Indian and general Asian culture for a long time, and were believed in by many old Zen folks (because they were old Asian folks). Many modern teachers still believe in that stuff, and talk about it. So, yes, it can be another chair in the room I suppose. I think it is hooey, but there are people who speak about it. I believe that this "Shinzen Young" fellow is such a guy, but I am not so impressed by him or his "new agey" approach and (to me anyway) semi-silly talk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGmU1oVroLM

Gassho, J

MyoHo

05-11-2013, 09:12 AM

Thank you Jundo and Taigu for not falling in the one and the other trap of the mind. You both show the way with great patiance as ususal. A Swedish zen priest/ protestant minister sent me something I use in my practice and think bridges some obstacles made by the mind. Taigu formulated what is in my heart in a more mature way then I ever could. Thank you.
Just to be sure: there is a great difference between having faith in the Church as an institution and having a Christian faith. But that is a whole topic all together.

I very much want to leave the topic now because it DOES NOT MATTER! For me this is only an interesting exploration of a phenomenon. That is all it should be.

Here is something id like to share with you that I use daily thanks to Gustav Ericcson sensei:

My prayers before and after zazen goes like this:

God, you are the whole.
In you, I live and move and have my being.
Let me sit firm in your love,
upright in your forgiveness,
and still in your peace.
Amen.

// bell //
The first sound of the bell is my prayer for peace in me.

// bell //
The second sound of the bell is my prayer for peace in my family and friends.

// bell //
The third sound of the bell is my prayer for peace in all living beings.

// zazen //

// bell //
The sound of the ending bell calls me to bring my practice into everything I do, in order to serve those in need.

God, we are all one body in you.
Let my practice be an open vessel
for your love, forgiveness and peace.
Amen.

Jundo

05-11-2013, 09:51 AM

Thank you, Enkyo, for quoting my Dharma Brother (fellow student of Nishijima Roshi) Gustav Ericcson, who is a Zen Teacher and a Lutheran priest with the Church of Sweden ...

http://sweepingzen.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Gustav-Erricson-150x150.png

Now, someone wrote with an interesting question: Why would I write that, in my opinion, "energy vibrations" and such are hooey that I will not teach at Treeleaf, but not call some of the doctrines of the Catholic Church "hooey" and "poppy-cock". Well, the fact of the matter is that I do think that many of the claims of Judaism, Christianity ... and Buddhism ... are "hooey" and unbelievable if taken literally. Walking on water (Buddhist stories have that too) is not believable to me if taken literally. I have less problem with such things if taken as allegory, symbol, myth capturing some greater lesson etc. So, I do not teach Catholicism, Judaism at Treeleaf any more than I teach "energy vibrations" or some of the (to me anyway) silly and superstitious stories and beliefs of Buddhism (here is an example from yesterdays "Onions and Garlic" thread) ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10913-the-Garlic-and-Onions-blues&p=100772&viewfull=1#post100772

In my personal view, ANY exaggerated and unsubstantiated claims of miracles and magic by anyone is likely "hooey and poppy-cock" if taken literally, so I do not teach them here as literal truths. (I also do not teach these things here because they are irrelevant to our Shikantaza practice, much they same as "auto-mechanics" is irrelevant, so I do not teach carburetor tuning here either! :cool:). However, I am not the final word on such things, and someone else may find great value in such teachings, from transmogrification of wine to the blood of Christ to "energy vibrations" to something else. One man's "baseless myth" is another man's "wise teaching".

In the end, belief in each is just another "chair in the room" to move around as one wishes. Nothing about believing or not believing in such things which ultimately impacts Shikantaza one bit.

Gassho, J

PS - I am hoping the Gustav will be a guest speaker here, and lead a short Zazenkai at Treeleaf, this summer. Maybe he can speak on these themes.

adrianbkelly

05-11-2013, 09:52 AM

God, Budhha, Allah, Catholic, Protestant, Soto, Rinzai, Theravada, Pure Land, Gelugpa, Nyingma, Sunni, Shiite, Atheist, Agnostic, Humanist, Hindu, Democrat, Republican, Communist, Capitalist......all are just piss in the wind. What counts is being at peace with yourself & the world & being kind to those around you.

_/\_
Ade

Nengyo

05-11-2013, 12:52 PM

id be more interested in learning about stuff like working with universal energy (chi?), raising vibrations, etc. is stuff like this found in the tao or any other eastern thought that would be compatable with zen practice?

Hi Justin, I thought I would add just a little to Jundo's assessment of chi. Not only do I agree with him, but I would also like to add that I think the pursuit of such things is a little bit dangerous. Not for the reasons people may normally tell you. To get my point across, I will tell one more personal story (I may have shared this before, but I forget.)

When I was young I was pretty small and very weak. I was the ultimate book reading nerd. I could read several books in a day easily. I read the entire set of encyclopedias in middle school, but I couldn't fight, couldn't do a pull up, and couldn't run fast... you get the idea. So, after reading a black belt magazine I decided to study martial arts. My first teacher was a big believer in this internal energy "chi" stuff. I wanted to believe so badly. It was a short, skinny nerd's dream. I threw myself into practicing my chi/ki exercises. I did all kinds of whackaloon crap for way too long chasing that dream.Then one day I sparred a friend who was learning kickboxing. Guess what? All my ki training didn't do one god damn thing. Nothing. It was the same as if a had practiced the ancient art of voice throwing in preparation for fighting. I didn't make me stronger, faster, or better. I didn't heal faster, I couldn't read my opponents, nothing. Before that sparring session I though I had achieved all of those things. I had deluded myself. I tricked myself into thinking I was doing something while doing nothing. All of that time would have been better spent exercising, meditating, doing kata, juggling, or reading. I would later study jujitsu, where we would occasionally meet people pandering these "secret" skills. But in juijitsu and judo, if it doesn't work on the mat it is rapidly ignored. I once watched my instructor choke out a kung fu guy while still standing up (he didn't even have to drag him down to the ground). The guy attempted to incapacitate him with chi. It NEVER worked.

Please, spend your time reading science books, doing zazen, working out, or doing samu. It will all be better than chasing that chi dream.

Much metta
Charles

Jakudo

05-11-2013, 01:19 PM

I feel more free of labels since practicing Zen - not totally free because we're forever trapped within language...... and yet - there are those fleeting moments in zazen when this seems not to be the case. Those rare moments of 'interbe' fly free of dogma, ritual, doctrine.Be free - don't stress about difference - lead a good life - everything follows naturally from following the precepts.

Gassho

Willow

Thank you Willow, you have summed up my sentiments nicely. I was brought up as a United Protestant (a very sombre, strait backed kind of church). My wife and children are Catholic and we were married in a Catholic church. I used to feel uncomfortable at Mass with all the ritual, kneeling and such but have found my Zen practice helped my feel more at ease.
Gassho, Jakudo.

alan.r

05-11-2013, 03:21 PM

Oh, good story Charles. I really liked that.

I also really enjoyed Hans' talk, too. Very nice. I'm going to watch it again right now.

I'm reminded of a story about Suzuki Roshi. It's something about vegetarians. The anecdote goes something like this: Suzuki Roshi smashed a finger while doing some work. He had to go to the hospital and so had one of the students drive him. This particular student was a very strict vegan, I believe. He hadn't eaten any meat product in a couple years. Suzuki Roshi was aware of this and I think even asked the student about it a couple times. The student was very serious about the whole vegan thing. Anyway, after the hospital, Suzuki Roshi was hungry and told the student to stop for some food. There were only fast food places. The student said this and Suzuki Roshi just said, Stop here at this one. The student ordered a grilled cheese and Suzuki Roshi got a double hamburger. Already the student was studying the grilled cheese with great disgust and annoyance, frustrated that after a couple years of not eating animal products, he was now going to consume CHEESE! Suzuki Roshi took a bite of his hamburger and said something like, I'm not in the mood for this, let's trade. He took the grilled cheese and ate it and waited until the student finished his sandwich. The student never took the whole food thing so seriously again, so the story goes.

Gassho

Kaishin

05-11-2013, 10:52 PM

Why both?
Gassho, Kaishin

Daitetsu

05-12-2013, 12:30 AM

About the Chi thing...

I do Tai-Chi, Ba Duan Jin and some other Qigong practices, but no, I don't believe in the concept of Chi either!
I practice these things for health reasons.
The movements stretch your body (a bit like yoga) and since you "synchronize" them with your breathing you relax at the same time.
And when you have the mindset of shikantaza while you practice, you have something like zazen in motion...
Due to my job I sit at least 8 hours per day in front of a computer. This means potential problems for the back.

Since I practice these techniques I have never had back problems again, my body posture improved dramatically (I used to have a very bad posture), my breathing became healthier, and I am more relaxed.
Sometimes I get a tingling and very warm feeling in my body. However, while some people call that chi, I think this phenomenon can be explained scientifically, but I am no expert in biology.

So I say yes to Qigong practices for health reasons, but building up Chi? I think this is concept that was used in the past in order to explain processes in the body that could not be explained otherwise back then.
I'd really, really like to do yoga as well, but well, I tried - I guess I am basket case when it comes to this...

Gassho,

Timo

Risho

05-12-2013, 12:38 AM

Daitetsu

05-12-2013, 12:50 AM

I have only done Tai Chi a couple of times, but I know what you mean with that tingly feeling. Chi or no Chi I do remember it was a really, really cool art. Yoga is really fun too; I like how it kicks your ass because you just have to stay there in those deep bended lunge postures (aka warriors) etc. It's like a strength and stretch exercise all in one.

Now I could teach you the mystical secrets. Please email me and I will tell you them for 4 payments of $30. haahhhah just kidding :)

Can I pay by PayPal? But, hey wait a minute, 30 bucks? :D

BTW: You also get this tingly feeling with some relaxation techniques like "Progressive Muscle Relaxation" - I guess you get this when the body relaxes really deeply.
When people ask me whether they should practice zazen (or meditation in general) in order to relax I always tell them there are much more effective methods for relaxing.
But well, this is one of those cliches that we must live with, I guess...

Gassho,

Timo

Jundo

05-12-2013, 02:02 AM

I am going to respond to Timo's post from the other thread here, just to keep everything together ...

I know people who call themselves Catholics, but don't believe in a personal god, or don't believe in Jesus being the son of god or don't believe in Mary being a virgin - but I would not call them Catholics anymore (although they themselves still do).
So as soon as someone during zazen drops one of those dogmas issued by the Pope, I would not call them a Catholic anymore - that's what I meant with you cannot practice both.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?5641-The-I-am-going-away-but-coming-back-thread&p=100943&viewfull=1#post100943

I want to be clear that I believe that someone --CAN-- believe in a personal god, that Jesus is the son of god, that Mary was a Virgin and follow every pronouncement of the Pope and still practice Zen without conflict.

Or, you can not believe and do those things (like me) and still practice Zen without conflict.

There can be no conflict in Zen Practice with such beliefs ... all chairs that are in or not in the room while we Practice Zen.

Gassho, Jundo

By the way, commenting on the concept of "Buddha" in the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra (the same is found in other Mahayana Sutras traditionally cherished by Zen folks like Dogen such as the Lotus and Flower Garland), Dr. Guang Xing writes:

'One of the main themes of the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra is that the Buddha is eternal, a theme very much in contrast with the Hinayana idea that the Buddha departed for ever after his final nirvana. The Mahayanists assert the eternity of the Buddha in two ways in the Mahaparinirvana Sutra. They state that the Buddha is the dharmakaya, and hence eternal. Next, they re-interpret the liberation of the Buddha as mahaparinirvana possessing four attributes: eternity, happiness, self and purity. In other words, according to the Mahayanists, the fact that the Buddha abides in the mahaparinirvana means not that he has departed for ever, but that he perpetually abides in intrinsic quiescence. The Buddha abiding in intrinsic quiescence is none other than the dharmakaya ... This dharmakaya is the real Buddha. It is on this doctrinal foundation that the Mahaparinirvana Sutra declares:"the dharmakaya has [the attributes of] eternity (nitya), happiness (sukha), self (atman) and purity (subha) and is perpetually free from birth, old age, sickness, death and all other sufferings ... It exists eternally without change ..."

This Dharamakaya Buddha took form as the Nirmanakaya, the flesh and blood Buddha, Gautama Buddha. This is Mahayana Buddhism 101. I put forth to you too that Mahayana perspectives like that (and Amida the Savior, etc.) are only a hop, skip and a jump from the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. It is not my particular interest ... because to me it is all just placing chairs in the room ... but there is ample common ground for those who wish.

http://www.misterdanger.net/books/Buddhism%20Books/The%20concept%20of%20the%20Buddha.pdf

Jinyo

05-12-2013, 07:59 AM

It's interesting (to my tiny little mind :) ) but when I first came to Buddhism (or at least Zen) I remember saying to a friend I was overjoyed at finding a faith/practice which didn't force a belief in an interventionist God.

After reading Thich Nhat Hahn's 'The energy of prayer' and 'Living Buddha, Living Christ' and opening my mind to the input of TreeLeaf's Christian Buddhist members I began to see things very differently.

I now see Buddhism as the ground beneath everybody's feet and it doesn't really matter which direction we walk in with other faiths/beliefs etc - we are all fundamentally standing on the same ground.

Gassho

Willow

(Timo - I have left a comment in reply to yours over on the 'I am leaving' thread [gassholook] )

Daitetsu

05-12-2013, 10:40 AM

I said in the other Thread I don't want to start the discussion anew, and I really want to adhere to this.

Just wanted to add that Willow's comment above which is in brackets could give the impression I want to leave - that is not the case, I just tried to dissuade people from leaving in said thread.

@Jundo:
I see, understand, and accept your point of view. I could give you arguments against your last post as well, but I am pretty sure nobody will totally convince the other completely. And that's fine for me - these are just different opinions for me.
It takes up too much energy for me, and especially time that I'd like to invest otherwise (especially for my familiy and sitting).

For me Zen practice is enough in itself - other dogmas are an unnecessary addition that could become an obstacle.
Anyway, time to move on to other topics (for me).

Gassho,

Timo

Nengyo

05-12-2013, 12:09 PM

About the Chi thing...

I do Tai-Chi, Ba Duan Jin and some other Qigong practices, but no, I don't believe in the concept of Chi either!
I practice these things for health reasons.

I'm all for this. I would actually like to study tai-chi one day too. Not because it is magical, but because scientist have figured out that getting up and moving around is really good. Tai-chi seems like it would be the perfect thing for off days or slow days when ALL my joints hurt (like today for instance)

I'd really, really like to do yoga as well, but well, I tried - I guess I am basket case when it comes to this...

That makes two of us! I purchased two different yoga dvds only to find out that me and yoga don't mix (except for downward dog. I have that move down)

Seisou

05-13-2013, 04:42 PM

me and yoga don't mix (except for downward dog. I have that move down)[/QUOTE]

I've got corpse pose down pretty well.

jus

05-15-2013, 01:16 AM

catfish, jundo, thank you. ive always been interested in metaphysics and abstract stuff, but im not on that new age bandwagon. i guess more "ancient"- vedas, kemet, stuff like that. i think i was just at a point the other day where i was begining to think of my practice as becoming "too cerebral". and i know its just an idea, but like the idea of this "supreme being" that were all part of, or aspects of. and the chakra thing, though i hate to admit it, im curious of that too. i guess fascinated by all things i cant physically sense, maybe thats part of trying to escape samsara. and maybe so, maybe not. how would i know. i just need to worry less and sit more. thank you for the replies.
gassho,
justin

Juki

05-17-2013, 01:27 PM

Last night, I was starting into Shunryu Suzuki's portion of the "Three Commentaries" on the Genjo Koan, when I ran into this passage right at the beginning:

The Buddhist way is beyond being and non-being. We know each colorful thread and we know the whole woven cloth. We observe things in two ways without any contradiction. But when we are not sincere enough, we may say. "This is Buddhism, and this is another religion. We are monks, and they are laymen, that's all." You don't understand the whole beautiful cloth.

I have been one of the people who are referred to by Dogen as being ignorant of their own ignorance. My apologies.

Gassho,

William

MyoHo

05-17-2013, 01:52 PM

Hi William,

If you like a look at it from the other side of the no sided coin, and if you don’t mind the Christian Catholic terminology have a look at Hugo Enomiya Lasalle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Enomiya-Lassalle.
He devoted much of his life building bridges between these two worlds. He even goes so far as to say both ‘religions’ need one another to survive and has a great understanding of both views and manages to write in an understandable way about it.

Gassho

Enkyo

Daitetsu

05-17-2013, 02:51 PM

The Catholic Authorities were not amused btw:

To quote from Enkyo's Wikipedia link about Lassalle:
"In 1958, he published Zen: A Way to Enlightenment, but the Holy See ordered him not to continue publishing on the subject."

Pretty much the same with Willigis Jäger, a Benedictine Zen Teacher. The following is from the German Wikipedia (which has more details on him, since he is a German):
"In 2001 the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith which was lead by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (who later became Pope Benedict) at that time accused him [Willigis Jäger] of subordinating Catholic religious truths and thus issued a ban on speaking, a ban on writing, and a ban on public appearances."

[bold highlighting by me]

That's what I meant with problems to bring everything under one roof. There is not much tolerance to be expected from the Vatican in these matters...

Gassho,

Timo

MyoHo

05-17-2013, 03:37 PM

Hi Timo,

Very true. But later in his life Catholic Church lifted that ban and a lot of good work was done since then I think. Lasalle wrote a lot of good stuff on the matter.

Arthur Schopenhauer once said:

"All truth goes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Then it is violently opposed. Finally it is accepted as self-evident."

Seems to be the case here but only time will tell don't you think? I for one am sure the 21st century will bring great changes in the way religion and it's definition is perceived. Not in the least because of the emancipation of people’s minds through internet and other media. Look at both Zen monks serving cappuccino and Karaoke and Christian church doing very similar things in order to reach people. The church does not make people anymore but rather people make the church and peoples views of the world are changing, rapidly!

Gassho

Enkyo

Daitetsu

05-17-2013, 03:54 PM

Hi Enkyo,

I agree and I am fully on your side with this.
I know lots of Catholics who desperately want to see changes in the Vatican.
So let's hope the "ordinary believers" (i.e. non-clerics) - who are actually supposed to be the base of the church - will eventually succeed in convincing the Vatican to be more tolerant.
I think they must create and be the change in order to make the Vatican loosen some dogmas.

Gassho,

Timo

Jinyo

05-17-2013, 05:59 PM

Interfaith and interbeing is the only way forward - lets hope that times really are ' a-changin'

Gassho

Willow

jus

05-19-2013, 05:09 AM

william and willow, "amen"!

Kyonin

05-19-2013, 10:34 AM

I once watched my instructor choke out a kung fu guy while still standing up (he didn't even have to drag him down to the ground). The guy attempted to incapacitate him with chi. It NEVER worked.

Please, spend your time reading science books, doing zazen, working out, or doing samu. It will all be better than chasing that chi dream.

This is pretty close to what happened to me. I used to believe in all the mysteries of the Chi and I drank the Kool-Aid that said that ancient Chinese culture had it right.

So when training Karate-Do (age 13), I got my ass kicked hard because all my woowoo techniques didn't work. At all.

In time I learned that science, physics and hard training are better than Chi.

Chi is great for new age guys that want to either sell or consume magic methods for doing magical stuff, like getting in touch with totems and such.

Thanks for your comment, Charles :)

Gassho,

Kyonin

Heisoku

05-19-2013, 01:22 PM

Just to add the Anglican point of view, Rowan Williams, the then archbishop of Canterbury, described his faith as; "a silent waiting on the truth, pure sitting and breathing in the presence of the question mark".
Does that sound familiar?
.....not to Anglicans it didn't.

jus

05-19-2013, 08:45 PM

right on, kyonin. ive been let down by new age philosophies, big time. luckily nobody has ever choked me out because of them, only choked myself out. anyway, i think this is what the DH would have to say about this, "dont try to use what you learn from buddhism to be a buddhist, use it to be a better whatever-you-already-are!" -dalai lama. i think that was a quote aimed towards Christians, possibly? ive heard him say it to theravadans in Thailand when being questioned about Buddhism in the west, in particular those already involved in a relationship with god. the quote sounds extreme at face value, but i know what hes getting at. gassho, justin

Shonin

05-26-2013, 09:06 AM

As usual will take time to read the whole thread later. So I'm answering by the original post. I agree that the two are in a way irreconcilable. But, at the same time I had a recent experience with the Catholic Church in the form of the funeral for my recently departed Grandmother.
I am one who is usually extremely uncomfortable in Christian settings in general, and admittedly usually see the differences NOT the similarities. So , at first, I was a bit tense and uncomfortable. As the ceremony continued,i found that the passage read by the priest was actually quite Zen like.It warmed my heart and changed my view on Christianity in general and Catholicism specifically. Also of note was the priest mentioning the common practice of meditating on the Virgin Mary. Just the fact the he said meditation made me more comfortable. But the entirety of the service I didn't feel " excluded" or alone in my beliefs. I was seeing right before my eyes the vast similarities in the message. The way things were phrased didn't set off any of the usual "alarms" aka differences that make me feel uncomfortable.
As for active/versus passive deities. I think that's a point we disagree on. But that's a whole different topic.
Just my two cents ( feel free to convert to any form of international currency at current exchange rates).

Dave _/\_

Shonin

05-26-2013, 09:22 AM

Jus, what you say reminds me of a Zen story I once read. I don't remember all the specifics or even who to quote. But I believe it has a valid point. and I'm total paraphrasing but you'll see what I'm saying. Basically it was a Zen teacher talking about how he practiced Feng Shui , and it worked. But it was a distraction of the Way so he left it behind.He then follows this with how he later practiced the I-Ching ( a form of divination if you are unfamiliar) and stated that it too worked. But he found it was a distraction of the Way so he left it behind.
That being said, for many years I was a non denominational neo-pagan primarily interested in cross-cultural shamanism. So i'm not against any form of energy work or the beliefs of such things. And do regularly take the time to practice Usui Reiki Ryoho ( a form of healing involving ki originating from Japan). But frankly, in my experience. Zen cuts right down to what all of that is truly about. It is in the end, the whole point of all that energy work. If you're looking to be able to perform cool magick tricks, squash that right out of your head because you are approaching it with the entirely wrong mindset. Question why you have an interest in these things and what you seek to gain from them. What are you prepared to sacrifice( not meaning sheep or your soul/that of others, if one is even to agree that such a thing exists) to receive what are holy teachings requiring many hours of practice not a simple recitation of some chant in the latest fad book written by Witch X. And also keep in mind that in every form of energy work there seems to be one huge common denominator. The absolute most basic foundation ( and simultaneously most profound) is...guess what....meditation.
So just sit.

Dave _/\_

lobster

05-27-2013, 12:22 PM

The other week, through no fault of Jesus and all to his credit, I was in my local Catholic Church during Happy Hour or Holy hour, I think it was . . . sitting about as if the last judgement was never going to happen.
Nobody will ever know I was doing 'just sitting' Buddhist meditation. The next time I see a Catholic contemplative at a temple, I will not be too concerned if they are secretly conversing with Yahweh. Atheists may even be ignoring the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all I know or care.

May Christ be with us. Allah Akbar. All hail His Supreme noodliness . . .gassho2

Nikola Mironija

06-01-2013, 12:19 PM

I had (and I am still struggling, though much less now) with a somewhat same dilemma, but with an Orthodox Christianity. And I realized that this struggle I feel is not because Orthodox Christianity itself is incompatible with Zen itself (there are certain potent parallels, but they are not stressed out enough in Orthodox, or any other Christian theology, it seems to me), but because I see that Orthodox Christians, the Orthodox Church and it's priests are not compatible with Zen.
But that just means those people are being d#cks. At least, that is how I see it at the moment.
I realise that I am not yet in the state where those differences have faded away, but I know it will come to me one day.

Cumminjd

06-02-2013, 01:14 AM

"IMHO Zen is not something that can be combined indiscriminately with everything - there is no use to say otherwise just out of fear to get on the wrong side of somebody..."

but id be more interested in learning about stuff like working with universal energy (chi?), raising vibrations, etc. is stuff like this found in the tao or any other eastern thought that would be compatable with zen practice?

thank you..

gassho,

justin

I know that Reddit/meditation discusses this quite often (chi and life force). As a Reiki practitioner (which started in buddhism, not zen, but buddhism non the less) I can discuss a little about the foundations and answer questions if you have any. Its the Japanese version of Chi simply called Ki. I could point you in a couple directions if you want.

Just a few suggestions

Gassho,

James

(btw if discussing anything I have talked about here is against the rules I am sorry and I will delete this comment if needed.)

Jundo

06-02-2013, 01:27 AM

Hi James,

Discussing Reiki and such is not against the rules at all. But I personally am very skeptical of many of the claims about it and related practices of manipulating ki.

http://www.skepticblog.org/2011/10/17/reiki-doesnt-work-either/

By the way, Reiki itself is nearly unknown here in Japan where its founder lived. It became much more well known overseas.

Nonetheless, effective or not, there is nothing to prevent someone from practicing Reiki or the like with Zen Practice. And of course, a kind and gentle touch and laying on of hands is always welcome, even if just a friendly embrace, with or without ki.

Gassho, Jundo

Cumminjd

06-02-2013, 01:44 AM

Yes I know the skepticism behind it, and I am not here to shove it down anyones throat. Quite honestly I believe every "age" has had their spiritual healing techniques. Weither it be shamanism, medicine men, or what not. I believe Reiki is a new take on an ancient practice. But this talk if for another time. I just thought I would offer my assistance is anyone is willig to talk about universal life force. Since it is something that is taught threw out any form of energy healing.

Gassho,

James

Cumminjd

06-02-2013, 01:50 AM

Actually, oddly enough, Reiki is what lead me to Zen Buddhism. After my first attunement i felt as though i had a different outlook on life. I wanted to find a spiritual practice that made more sense to me. I immediately picked up the book My Spiritual Journey by His Holiness The Dalai Llama. After reading that book I let it set in for a while, and found it to my liking. I then found a Buddhist group that had weekly sittings and started to attend. I had no clue what "Zen" Buddhism was at the time, but liked the sittings. The Priest who lead the sittings directed me here for when I couldn't make it to his sittings

Just a fun story

Gassho,

James

Jundo

06-02-2013, 03:02 AM

Thank you, James, for your open minded attitude.

Just to be clear, I am not saying that a Practice such a energy healing is necessarily untrue, but only that I personally am rather skeptical to the point of not believing in many of the claims about it or descriptions of the mechanism. I am also not saying that there is anything wrong about it for some people if it brings them joy and a feeling of connection and healing. Good for them, and the world can use such.

Even the medicine men and witch doctors of old were surprisingly effective and important in their villages. Whether their spells and potions actually cured is one thing, but they brought comfort to many and hope to those suffering, and even belief in the power of healing alone can often bring healing.

So, I am a skeptic ... but an open minded skeptic. As Shakespeare said, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." I am not the last word, simply doubting and agnostic on certain claims. I may doubt based on controlled studies, but do not doubt the power of the mind to heal itself, and to have real physiological effects thereby, simply by its belief. What is more, maybe all the claims about Reiki or the like are true ... many things first doubted or unproven later prove true.

If a person were to avoid seeing a medical doctor, for example, with simple reliance on "energy healing" to cure cancer in its early stages, I would be very concerned. But if one turns to "healing" in the final stages, because all else has failed and it brings peace and hope ... I would encourage so. In fact, I would encourage seeing the healer and the medical physician at once if it brings hope and comfort.

There are certainly practices and vices in this world that one should avoid because they do harm. Laying on a caring and healing hand is not one of them.

Gassho, J

Cumminjd

06-02-2013, 03:17 AM

There is much evidence on both sides of the fence. Its really up to the potential recipient. And in no way do I believe that I or any Reiki practitioner can cure cancer or any disease. I believe it can help calm the mind and the energies and alleviate the stress, allowing for energy to flow. Or at least, for the body to recuperate at a better speed. If i ever was to open up a practice (unlikely) in bold letter there would be NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR DOCTORAL MEDICINE. I believe it can work well WITH doctoral medicine. Furthermore, a broken bone cannot be healed from a Reiki practitioner. But the pain and energies can be soother to promote a better and possibly faster healing.

My thoughts on my practice. Thanks for not completely shooting my practice down gassho1

Gassho,

James

toshiro_mifune

09-15-2013, 05:29 PM

I was raised as a Catholic, I never went through the formal Catholic education of your level, but even though my family was relatively liberal and neutral, it was a custom in my home country for every kid to undergo basic Catholic training. I was born after the Second Vatican Council, but the Church in my home country picked up the deformations very gradually and hesitantly. I left Catholicism at 13 years of age and have gone though the an angry anti-religious stage. I don't claim that Catholicism is compatible with Zen, also there is no way back, nor do I feel like going back.

But after long years, some reading, some calming down, I realized that in 99% it was my anger talking.

I could go on about every single point you listed (for example the belief in literal heavens and hells is an element in most of Buddhist sects, both Hina- and Mahayana, Self/Other power in Pure Land Buddhism vs Christ, and how they seem to merge into one Power in Jodo Shinshu and ultimately in Zen etc etc etc), but it's the "wafer" that is worth mentioning because it's what the entire Catholicism is about.

The Sacred becomes embodied in the world of flesh and blood and makes you Sacred (moves you further along the Path). In the "authentic" version, you accept it kneeling and the entire thing takes place in Latin language, and you don't understand a word, which makes the moment even more extraordinary. The "transformation" is performed by priests of unbroken lineage (apostles->bishops, bishops->priests). Could there be a way in this?

Now, in Zen, you train under a Teacher from an unbroken lineage. Like a priest, the teacher is not always perfect (Shunryu Suzuki liked to drink, now I am hearing about another Japanese Zen priest in the US who liked to have a good time with female disciples). You sit zazen, and are supposed to believe you are Buddha and there is no duality between you and the world outside you. Do you really believe it? You are told there is no need to believe in anything, but then you are told you are Buddha and always have been. Unless you have had this realization (I have not, yet), this is a mere belief and a very bold one.

Gassho,
Mike

P.S. Rene Guenon and Fritjoff Schuon may be worth checking out (with a grain of salt)

Daitetsu

09-15-2013, 09:05 PM

Hi Mike,

Actually I wanted to forget this thread as I feel there was a lot of misunderstanding involved...
You can look for and list as many parallels as you like - I never said there are no parallels to be found.
But well, I could even tell you parallels between satanism a la La Vey and Zen. You can *always* find parallels.
There is a decisive difference though that cannot be explained away:
To use the concept of God: In Catholicism god is something external, separate from you and the universe. In Zen God is you and in fact everything there is... (one could argue though whether it makes sense to use this word in the first place, but I guess you know what I mean.)

You sit zazen, and are supposed to believe you are Buddha and there is no duality between you and the world outside you. Do you really believe it? You are told there is no need to believe in anything, but then you are told you are Buddha and always have been. Unless you have had this realization (I have not, yet), this is a mere belief and a very bold one.

I can't remember I have said that Zen does not involve some kind of belief or trust, so actually I could consider this as a strawman argument and leave it as that.

I prefer to keep my answer on a general level (there are things I am only willing to talk about with my teachers):
It is not about believing for everyone. And everyone has at least a chance to find out.

But forget about Kensho/Satori/Enlightenment/etc. This practice is not about these things.
Perhaps for Rinzai practitioners.
Maybe you might check out the stuff from Kodo Sawaki...

Gassho,

Timo

toshiro_mifune

09-15-2013, 09:30 PM

.. and even more between La Vey's satanism and Catholicism ;) No, I am not arguing for Catholicism. Just pointing out that you can't expect a religion or a spiritual path to be rational. External or pantheistic God, little difference when the rubber hits the road.
And, also that, even though everyone denies it, there is an element of belief in Zen (you didn't say that and I don't claim you did). Non-dualism and inherent Buddha nature is very hard to swallow, at least for me, and I have to actually have some level of trust that Dogen and others acquired this kind of experiential knowledge and are trying to point us to it.

Gassho,
Mike

Hi Mike,

Actually I wanted to forget this thread as I feel there was a lot of misunderstanding involved...
You can look for and list as many parallels as you like - I never said there are no parallels to be found.
But well, I could even tell you parallels between satanism a la La Vey and Zen. You can *always* find parallels.
There is a decisive difference though that cannot be explained away:
To use the concept of God: In Catholicism god is something external, separate from you and the universe. In Zen God is you and in fact everything there is... (one could argue though whether it makes sense to use this word in the first place, but I guess you know what I mean.)

I can't remember I have said that Zen does not involve some kind of belief or trust, so actually I could consider this as a strawman argument and leave it as that.

I prefer to keep my answer on a general level (there are things I am only willing to talk about with my teachers):
It is not about believing for everyone. And everyone has at least a chance to find out.

But forget about Kensho/Satori/Enlightenment/etc. This practice is not about these things.
Perhaps for Rinzai practitioners.
Maybe you might check out the stuff from Kodo Sawaki...

Gassho,

Timo

Jundo

09-16-2013, 02:23 AM

Now, in Zen, you train under a Teacher from an unbroken lineage. Like a priest, the teacher is not always perfect (Shunryu Suzuki liked to drink, now I am hearing about another Japanese Zen priest in the US who liked to have a good time with female disciples). You sit zazen, and are supposed to believe you are Buddha and there is no duality between you and the world outside you. Do you really believe it? You are told there is no need to believe in anything, but then you are told you are Buddha and always have been. Unless you have had this realization (I have not, yet), this is a mere belief and a very bold one.

Just a few words on misconceptions of misconceptions ...

The "unbroken lineage" is likely not historical, is filled with names of people who could not have been connected, many who had little to do with "Zen", could not have lived at the times indicated, or were completely fictional. The "unbroken lineage" was created by men in China to draw a symbolic link back to Buddha, but was a kind of religious fable or propaganda.

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenBookReviews/seeing_through_zen.htm

Nonetheless, the "unbroken lineage" stands for somebody, somewhere ... nameless man and women who have kept the flame of this Way burning over the millenia back to the source.

In fact, "Zen" largely emerged when Indian Buddhist Teachings encountered Chinese-Taoist Sensibilities (and then Japanese Culture). ... yet the blending of flavors also emerged as something very rich and nourishing. It is quite the same, yet different ... sometimes quite different, while just the same with the historical Buddha's original formulations. Now, Western and modern spices are added too. I sometimes compare Buddhism to how the Model T became a Prius ... yet same basic 4-wheels with seats design on the road to not going.

Zen Teachers are human beings. Most Buddhist Teachers I know are generally caring, devoted, wise, compassionate, well trained, illuminating, enlightening folks ... mixed in with a small number of bad apples. I speak about that quite often.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10071-SIT-A-LONG-with-JUNDO-Sex-Scandal-Finger-Wagging

and

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10480-SIT-A-LONG-with-Jundo-Safe-Landings

You are not supposed to "believe" that there is no duality between you and the world outside you. You are to experience and embody so. In fact, the silly belief that there are only two parts to reality ... "you" and everything else in the universe that is "not you" ... is kinda the silly belief. "Buddha" (not to be confused with the historical human being by the same title, although he was Buddha too as are you ...) is just a "code word" for that where all said divisions are dropped. Or, better put, the vision of life of divisions and things bumping into each other ... and without divisions and bumping ... are encountered as not two.

But forget about Kensho/Satori/Enlightenment/etc. This practice is not about these things.
Perhaps for Rinzai practitioners.
Maybe you might check out the stuff from Kodo Sawaki...

Gassho,

Timo

HUH!?! Where did this come from, Timo?

I believe you confuse our "not chasing after, radically giving up the hunt" with "not finding". Who said that our Way ain't about Kensho-Satori-Enlightenment? Certainly not Kodo.

Here, please, carve this in your bones ...

Who ever said that there is "nothing to find" in, through and as this practice of "not seeking", no place to "get", no treasure to snare at the end of the rainbow?

Not me. I never would say such a thing. Then why pursue this path?

Who ever said there is no "enlightenment" to be achieved? I never would say that. It would not be Buddhism in that case.

More here ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7461-How-to-attain-enlightenment

Gassho, J

Jundo

09-16-2013, 04:28 AM

A couple of Kodo Sawaki quotes on Satori ...

We don’t practice in order to get satori. It’s satori that pulls our practice. We practice, being dragged all over by satori.

You don’t seek the way. The way seeks you.

You study, you do sports, and you’re fixated on satori and illusion. So that even zazen becomes a marathon for you, with satori as the finish line. Yet because you’re trying to grab it, you’re missing it completely. Only when you stop meddling like this does your original, cosmic nature realize itself.

You say you’re seeking the way, but what does it mean if you’re seeking the way just to satisfy yourself?

You want to become a buddha? There’s no need to become a buddha! Now is simply now. You are simply you. And tell me, since you want to leave the place where you are,where is it exactly you want to go?

Zazen means just sitting without even thinking of becoming buddha.

We don’t achieve satori through practice: practice is satori. Each and every step is the goal.

Don’t take pride in your practice. It’s clear that any satori you take pride in is a lie.

You’ve got it backwards if you talk about stages of practice. Practice is satori.

Satori is like a thief breaking into an empty house. He breaks in but there’s nothing to steal. No reason to flee. No one who chases him. So there’s nothing which could satisfy him either.

The buddha-dharma is immeasurable and unlimited. How could it ever have been made to fit into your categories.

No matter what you are grasping for, it’s limited.

In any case, only things for ordinary people can be grasped. Grasping for money, clinging to health, being attached to position and title, grasping for satori – everything you grasp only becomes the property of an ordinary person. Letting go of ordinary people’s property – that’s what it means to be a buddha.

When peace of mind only means your personal satisfaction, then it’s got nothing to do with the buddha-dharma.

The buddha-dharma teaches limitlessness. That which is measureless has to be accepted without complaint.

You lack peace of mind because you’re running after an idea of total peace of mind. That’s backwards. Be attentive to your mind in each moment, no matter how unpeaceful it might seem to be. Great peace of mind is realized only in the practice within this unpeaceful mind. It arises out of the interplay between peaceful and unpeaceful mind.

A peace of mind that is totally at peace would be nothing more than something ready made. Real peace of mind only exists within unpeaceful mind.

When dissatisfaction is finally accepted as dissatisfaction, peace of mind reigns. It’s the mind of a person who had been deaf to criticism when he finally listens to others talking about his mistakes. It’s the mind of a person who, naked and begging for his life, suddenly dies peacefully. It’s the mind of a person who has suddenly lost the beggar who had been pulling at his sleeve, relentlessly following him around everywhere,. It’s the mind after the flood in which the make-up of piety has washed away.

How could a human being ever have peace of mind? The real question is what you’re doing with this human life. What you’re doing with this stinking sack of flesh, that’s the issue.

http://antaiji.dogen-zen.de/eng/kodo-sawaki-to-you.shtml

Daitetsu

09-16-2013, 08:24 AM

Hi Jundo,

HUH!?! Where did this come from, Timo?

I believe you confuse our "not chasing after, radically giving up the hunt" with "not finding". Who said that our Way ain't about Kensho-Satori-Enlightenment? Certainly not Kodo.

Here, please, carve this in your bones ...

I am sorry, this is another misunderstanding.
I was indeed talking about chasing a single big boom satori experience.
Kodo Sawaki mostly spoke about practice-enlightenment, but used for both the expression satori.

So IMHO our practice is not about the goal of achieving a big satori experience (although having one is not bad and neither to belittled nor to be raised on a pedestal). As you have said several times, it is like hiking and coming across a beautiful scenery. But then it's time to move on.

I referred to Kodo Sawaki, because in my opinion he explains the concept of practice-enlightenment (i.e. the actualizing of Buddha-nature when we sit or in other activities) in an excellent way. And practice-enlightenment is the thing that is at the core of our Soto tradition IMHO.
Using the expression Satori for both a "unique peak event" and for practice-enlightenment can be tricky.

Hope I could clarify my point of view with this.

Gassho,

Timo

toshiro_mifune

09-16-2013, 11:39 AM

You are not supposed to "believe" that there is no duality between you and the world outside you. You are to experience and embody so. In fact, the silly belief that there are only two parts to reality ... "you" and everything else in the universe that is "not you" ... is kinda the silly belief. "Buddha" (not to be confused with the historical human being by the same title, although he was Buddha too as are you ...) is just a "code word" for that where all said divisions are dropped. Or, better put, the vision of life of divisions and things bumping into each other ... and without divisions and bumping ... are encountered as not two.

Of course. But the entry level person who is drawn to zazen, usually does it with some belief, something they had read or had been told. Otherwise they wouldn't undertake this activity, which to a person from the street may not seem very exciting. So even without clining to or gaining, they "expect" in a way, and even "know" more or less what to expect. This is of course immaterial, I was just trying to point out the fact that a belief never plays any role in Zen seems to be a bit of a stretch.

Gassho,
Mike

Jundo

09-16-2013, 03:15 PM

Hi Mike,

Of course. One must trust or rely on what the folks are telling one about this Practice at the start. But, after a certain point, one comes to taste such for oneself.

It is a bit like I believed my dad when he said I could ride a bicycle even though it looked so hard. It took some tries, but he was right!

Gassho, J

PS - I know what Timo actually meant to say. My comment was not for him really (I know he knows), but for the many folks new to Soto Zen who might have taken literally his comment that our Soto/Koda Sawaki Way is not about "kenshosatorienlightenment, that's the Rinzai fellows not us". That is very easy for newcomers to misunderstand.

Myosha

09-17-2013, 12:23 AM

Thank you.

Gassho,
Edward

kidbuda

09-22-2013, 04:10 PM

WOW! great thread and subject! :D thanks all for sharing! I´d like to share my view, briefly :): If we live our dharma practice to the heart, dinamic and alive, not like a bunch of precepts, rules, recipes and rituals, it combines really well with catholic and christian religions, and maybe other religions too, of course there will be points where things don´t match perfect but is up to each one of us to decide how to combine our stuff. I don´t encourage "just brainless mixing" to anyone but a more aware, here and now and wholesome and view. But then, that´s just me and my deluded mind.

:)

Gassho

Ricky Ramos

10-23-2013, 12:52 PM

As a student of Comparative Religions I have found this conversation very interseting. Since I have nor read the whole thread I don't know if THomas Merton has been brought here. He was a ROman Catholic Trappist Monk who embraced Zen Buddhism. He believed that RC mediattion was very close to Zazen. I believe they are. Besides that, I could mention the ideas of the Saints and Boddhisatvas, the litanies and prayers of Tibetan Buddhism, the ideas of atonning for sin, and even the belief in purgatory and Samsara are very close one from the other.

http://www.thomasmertonsociety.org/altany2.htm

Biko

10-24-2013, 08:23 AM

Jishin

10-24-2013, 10:41 AM

MyoHo

10-24-2013, 03:54 PM

Jeffery,

I see your point but have to disagree a bit.

Religion is not always and only about death and dealing with it. It's mostly about life and how you live it. Like most other religions, there are differences but also great similarities. Looking at the Precepts, we we quickly see the 10 commandments are not all that different. This among other similarities and the fact that Buddhism and Christianity compliment each other more often then not, make that I have no trouble both being both an observant Christian and a sincere student of Zen. The combination makes that I not only live life but work on living it well!

What comes after life?

Tree in the park
blackbird calling on the roof
raindrops in my begging bowl.

Gassho

Enkyo

Geika

10-24-2013, 05:41 PM

I practice to eventually accept death, not rationalize it, though I admit that the latter was my initial mindset.

Biko

10-24-2013, 06:41 PM

I practice to eventually accept death, not rationalize it, though I admit that the latter was my initial mindset.

I mean thats why we are all here. One day everything we love will be taken from us and we will cease to be and we must somehow find a way to make that ok.

Gassho, Jeffrey

Biko

10-24-2013, 06:55 PM

On the subject of Zen and Catholicism, I dont see a way to serve two masters. One can certainly use Zen practices and be part of any religion. I just see it as a "Jack of all trades, master of none" situation. I think many people straddle both paths in an attempt to hold onto a fallacious belief in a personal god that resides outside of ones self, yet really never commit to either path. I see it as trying to cover all bases in a "just in case" scenario. I find the god of the old testament to behave like a spoiled toddler, throwing tantrums, making absurd demands on "his" followers and displaying symptoms of a major psychotic disorder at best. I'm not trying to offend anyone here I am just being pointed about what I see as a major negetive force in our world at large.

Gassho, Jeffrey

MyoHo

10-24-2013, 08:44 PM

Seems to me you have some way still to go, but that is OK.

Gassho

Enkyo

Rich

10-24-2013, 09:15 PM

Every single thing is just the One Mind. When you have perceived this, you will have mounted the Chariot of the Buddhas.” (Huang Po)

Kind regards. /\

Rich

10-24-2013, 09:20 PM

The current pope is a very simple and humble man. He just fired a bishop for spending too much money on housing renovations. Very encouraging.

Kind regards. /\

MyoHo

10-24-2013, 10:05 PM

:d

e.

Daitetsu

10-24-2013, 10:42 PM

Hi Rich,

The current pope is a very simple and humble man. He just fired a bishop for spending too much money on housing renovations. Very encouraging.
I guess you mean that German bishop? Actually, the pope did not fire him, but only suspended him. AFAIK the vatican was even informed about the lavish bishop all the time (for those who don't know: he said the new residence would cost about 1 or 2 million EUR, but at the moment numbers have risen to almost 40 million EUR - quite some difference), but the public pressure here in Germany has been getting higher and higher. Lots of catholics here (and protestants strangely as well) are really upset by this.
However, I have also read recently that it is quite normal that a bishop gets a residence in that price range around here - it's just not made public like in that case.

Yes, I also think the new pope is of a different kind than the previous one (more down to earth), but it is hard to tell what really comes from his heart or what comes due to a reaction that is expected by public.
Media are reporting on this every day here and they want to see something happen.

Is the pope a simple and humble man? I don't know, but I do know he is not beyond dispute, especially because of some serious accusations made against him in the past, i.e. the role he might have played during the brutal military dictatorship in Argentina.
Anyway, we will probably never find that out, and it really does not matter to our practice anyway.

I just wanted to point out that we should be careful whether we call someone a simple, humble man or a bad man. What do we really know about him?
However, I must admit that I'd not call the vatican a humble residence... :p (SCNR)

Gassho,

Timo

Rich

10-24-2013, 10:59 PM

He doesn't live in the official papal residence in the Vatican. Thinks its too luxurious so he lives in a small apartment there, so I heard.

Kind regards. /\

Rich

10-24-2013, 11:17 PM

Here's what he said about non believers
“[W]e also sense our closeness to all those men and women who, although not identifying themselves as followers of any religious tradition, are nonetheless searching for truth, goodness and beauty, the truth, goodness and beauty of God. They are our valued allies in the commitment to defending human dignity, in building a peaceful coexistence between peoples and in safeguarding and caring for creation"

Kind regards. /\

Biko

10-24-2013, 11:33 PM

Seems to me you have some way still to go, but that is OK.

Gassho

Enkyo

Everyone in this group does, it's why we are here. None of us has the answers, at best we can express opinions. Some opinions differ, so lets try to cease the finger wagging.

Gassho, Jeffrey

Daitetsu

10-24-2013, 11:44 PM

Hi Rich,

Here's what he said about non believers
“[W]e also sense our closeness to all those men and women who, although not identifying themselves as followers of any religious tradition, are nonetheless searching for truth, goodness and beauty, the truth, goodness and beauty of God. They are our valued allies in the commitment to defending human dignity, in building a peaceful coexistence between peoples and in safeguarding and caring for creation"

Thank you for this quote. Yes, it is a huge step indeed, and AFAIK he also made an important step toward homosexuals.
This gives me hope for a more tolerant and open Catholic Church. That's actually what lots of its followers are hoping, too.
This is a chance for change, let's hope the rest of the church uses this opportunity!

Gassho,

Timo

Rich

10-24-2013, 11:55 PM

Thanks, timo. I hope so. BTW what is Afaik. 😊

Kind regards. /\

Daitetsu

10-25-2013, 12:31 AM

Hi Rich,

BTW what is Afaik.
Oh, sorry, I am a bit lazy sometimes... This is an acronym for "as far as I know".

Gassho,

Timo

Jundo

10-25-2013, 05:36 AM

I tend to find that people need religion to placate the ego's fear of death. The ego cannot accept that one day it will become as if it never were and creates all sorts of mythologies to calm it. Unfortunately it does anything but. I find the idea of personality survival beyond death absurd in the extreme. Why on earth would we want to hold on to the ignorant limitations of this human life? My only thoughts on life after death are- How can something that was never created cease to be? I was raised without religion so I fortunately escaped the mind f*ck that it can be on a person later in life when they lose it. All of my problems stemmed from my own creation and I am thankfully reworking that soil and planting better seeds.

Gassho, Jeffrey

Yes, it is the ego (the little "self") that fears its own death. But please realize that Zen Practice ... and most of Buddhism ... is very much about this matter of "life and death". Every Zen Temple has this written near the Zendo Door ...

Let me respectfully remind you, life and death are of supreme importance.

Most Buddhists, traditionally, have believed that there are future Rebirths into other lives ... or maybe into a "Pure Land" where one may sit at a Buddha's feet. Not all modern, especially Western, Buddhists believe so (I am a skeptical agnostic on the issue, and it is not so vital to my "right here, right now in this life" Practice), but certainly the vast vast majority of Buddhists did ... and still do ... think so in Asia.

But the interesting fact is that, whether one believes in "rebirth into future lifes" or not ... almost ALL Buddhists I know believe the following:

That life and death are kind of a dream, a state of mind. In other words, "rebirth" (even if you believe in it) exists precisely because you believe in it! When you wake up from the dream, the dream vanishes. One is reborn until one stops thinking and acting like they will be reborn, thus causing rebirth![scared] So, whether one believes or not ... WAKE UP!

What is more, there is that transcendent of small human judgments of "start and finish, life and death, beginnings and endings". This is a fact that almost every present or ancient Zen Buddhist I know believed in ... both believers AND modern skeptics of post mortum rebirth, everyone. Namely, that we are "suchness", even after we "kick the bucket" when the bottom falls out of the bucket. (The best, but somewhat misleading, example is the "waves and sea" example ... where each of the waves worries about what will become of itself when it crashes on the rocky shore, not realizing that each wave was just the water and sea all along). We die, we crash on the beach ... yet roll on and on.

Oh, we believe in a kind of "survival beyond death" too. Better said, we belief in a kind of "survival-non-survival" beyond all small human division of "life and death, starts and finishes".

(By the way, I think one could still Practice "here and now just this life" Zen Buddhism just fine even if thinking the we are totally "kaput", dead and done with, when we go to the grave. No problem. Whatever the case ... rebirth or ocean or not ... just live gently here and now).

Gassho, J

Biko

10-25-2013, 08:13 AM

I think something survives death but not the individual personality, but it seems that this something goes back into the pool of energy from whence it came, into the non-dual whole, which we exist in anyway but are too ignorant to see it. In a way we are already dead. I fully agree with the dream analogy. At times consciousness is murky at best but one gets a distinct feeling that they aren't seeing the entire picture, that there is so much more beyond the illusion and limitations of the five physical sense fields. I'm a skeptic at heart so when the unicorns and fairies come out in any belief system I tend to cringe. And I'm just not a fan of mixing multiple belief sytems. I think one should do one thing and do it well. My first Zen teacher had us do a meditation where we would visualize the physical body peeling away, layer by layer until there was just our true existence left. I cant remember what it was called but I think it may have been from the Vajrayana tradition. He was a student of Chogyam Trungpa who later became a student of Kobun Chino Roshi so he tended to bring in aspects of both traditions but firmly seated in Soto Zen.

Gassho, Jeffrey

Tiwala

10-25-2013, 09:25 AM

Hi,

wanted to share some insights.

People may want to look at Jesuit spirituality... the parallels are surprising, even more than normal. The god of everyday life, detachment from our likes and dislikes ("to conquer oneself and to regulate one's life in such a way that no decision is made under the influence of any inordinate attachment.), seeing God everywhere, even in despair or sin ("To see God in all things and all things in God") etc.

St. Ignatius, the founder of the Society of Jesus, once wrote.

Take, Lord, and receive all my liberty,
my memory, my understanding,
and my entire will,
All I have and call my own.

You have given all to me.
To you, Lord, I return it.

Everything is yours; do with it what you will.
Give me only your love and your grace,
that is enough for me.

In shikantaza, we also give up everything and simply sit. No issue of right or wrong, no issue of left and right, no issue of doing or not doing, no issue of outside and inside. To be still and know God. Who is he? Who is asking?

I once had a Jesuit math teacher. A lot of people were failing in class and asked what the use of math was, especially to those who won't be needing it for their supposed career paths. He said that, like the enjoying a beautiful sunset, math does not particularly need a use, despite actually being useful.

As a side note, one of the biggest zen groups we have here in the philippines is FILLED with the Catholic religious as zen teachers.

And here's a short trailer of a doc bout Christian-Buddhist dialogue. The guy with the cool east coast (not really familiar with Americanaccents that well.) accent is Fr. Kennedy S.J. Roshi.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRWm2YNPFA4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRWm2YNPFA4)

Gassho, Ben

MyoHo

10-25-2013, 11:14 AM

Thank you Ben. Maria Theresa used to sit in meditation much similar to our practice. Why similar? Because when she was asked what she was doing sitting like that she answered. "I'm listening to God and he is listening to me". I know it's not shikantaza ( Zen is different from meditation) but this story always amazes me.

Jeffrey: The beauty of our Way ( and this sangha) is the fact that we do NOT discard or take a position against any other religion, belief or culture that gives guidance to people and make them try to live a good and productive life. Simply because we don't know anything for sure and are just fine with that. Is there a God? Maybe yes maybe no. My personal choice is yes but will respect any other standpoint just the same. Thinking or wagging a finger to anyone saying "I'm right and you are not" is the only real mistake we can make in this.

My mother used to say that if you are doing something you can continue doing when Jesus returns, you'll alright. If i'm sitting and He comes, great! If I sit and He does not come yet, also fine. Does not matter in shikantaza. Nothing matters in shikantaza because it's all there. Whole and complete. As good a take on it as any. Of course, of Nazi Buddhist, Child molesting Christian, Mass murdering Mohammedan we can all safely say that is not so good. So will all people observing these and all other religions that make our world so interesting. Why crusading against religion? Yes, I am offended by you calling religion a Mind F*&% but you seem to feel very strongly about it, so it's OK. Why? Something to work with and all good practice

Struggling to deny something forcefully and discarding someones belief system out of hand, is also a form of ego attachment and should be let go of AFAIK (lol) in my humble opinion. I'll always stick to what Nishijima Roshi used to say on this matter: "Both true!" Works for me. Shall we sit [happy]?

Gassho

Enkyo

Daitetsu

10-25-2013, 01:05 PM

Hi Enkyo,

Yes, I am offended by you calling religion a Mind F*&% but you seem to feel very strongly about it, so it's OK.

Please don't take the following personal, but when you feel offended when someone says religion is a Mind F*, than IMHO you are the one who feels very strongly about it.
Don't misunderstand me, I don't want to attack you, but I think this is a sign of attachment or even of identification.
If someone said to me "Zen is just huge pile of horse manure" I would not be upset in the least, because I don't identify with Zen, I just practice it.
When you feel upset just because someone attacked religion, you might identify with it. Jeffrey attacked religion, not you as a person. So why feel offended?

Moreover, I think Jeffrey referred to the religious indoctrination in early childhood. Thing is, this is a huge pilar of success for religions: the earlier you begin to plant seeds, the higher the success rate. Little children believe almost anything.

I don't teach anything about Zen/Buddhism to my daughter, as I don't want to indoctrinate her. I let her ask. If she wants to know something, I try to explain it.
If she someday wants to become a Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. - so be it!
However, if I actively tried to make her become a Buddhist, I would do nothing else than indoctrination myself (I want to avoid the expression Mindf* here).

Just to shed light from a different angle here. These kinds of discussions can be a chance to reveal our own attachments.

Gassho,

Timo

Hans

10-26-2013, 02:47 PM

Hello,

as long as one still identifies as something (other than in a very playful sense) or someone, the bucket's bottom has not fallen out yet. Does one serve truth wholeheartedly, or identities and beloved ideas instead?

I leave the rest to the scholars.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

Biko

10-28-2013, 08:44 AM

Again I just want to reiterate it was not my intention to offend anyone. In this world and in this sangha I'm sure there are those of us who have been burned very badly by western religions and have very deep scars to heal due to that. Do I need to let that go, heal and move on? Maybe. Or maybe I just need to accept things exactly as they are and leave it at that. I sit for all whom have inflicted pain and suffering on me and other LGBT people in this world.

Gassho, Jeffrey

Hans

10-28-2013, 08:54 AM

Hello Jeffrey,

it's all okay if we can take a deep breath once in a while and just acknowledge that communication itself is a very tough business.

One person refers to religion and relates it to lots of structural and historical facts, others to their own life awareness shaped by certain wonderful individuals that belonged to a tradition, others again just mix and match to their heart's content and are too busy trying to be a good person to stop and wonder too much about definitions.

Where I personally totally agree is that these days our individualist culture has led to the erosion of useful definitions.

I am luckily in no position to tell anyone when they start/stop being a Catholic/Jew etc., but as a matter of personal opinion I am also a bit sad that basically Catholic/Buddhist can mean just about anything these days.

However, in terms of Zen practise all those labels are just useful bullshit anyhow. Look at people walking their walk, not how they talk their talk :)

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

hamlin81

02-06-2017, 05:08 PM

I've personally had to wrestle some with reinterpreting Christianity so it can have meaning for me. I don't live in an area that has any Mahayana Buddhist centers, so I have to go to Christian Churches in order to have a spiritual community.

Some things that have helped me is to re-imagine God as something more abstract. I've found a lot of teachers make comparisons of God with the Dharmakaya. I've even reframed God as Amitabha Buddha. Obviously, the "Creator God" part doesn't work, if you do this, but I don't mind just dropping that belief. I can also easily see Jesus as a Bodhisattva.

I go to an Episcopal Church, not a Catholic one. I'm thankful that in the Episcopal Church no one really bats an eye if you have to reframe things like this.

For me personally, I mainly only look to the Gospels. I don't pay much attention to the rest of the bible.

Robaato

02-06-2017, 06:12 PM

I partially agree and disagree, Daitetsu. On the one hand side, Catholicism seems to force you to believe things while Zen (on the other hand side) wants you to check things yourself. (At least in my humble understanding.)

There was a famous German Zen master called Hugo Enomyia-Lassalle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Enomiya-Lassalle) who also was a member of a Catholic order. I believe he practice Zen at Hosshinji monastery in Japan. This can kind of prove that Catholicism and Zen can go hand in hand.

Here's a free book by Kurosaki Kokichi (http://awildernessvoice.com/OneBodyInChrist.html#toc) about the origins of Christian sects. And in the book you're also told about what originally Christianity was in the beginning. Having practiced Buddhist meditation for a while, some passages sound very familiar to me.

Kyousui

04-23-2017, 11:30 PM

Father Kevin Hunt, Trappist, and a transmitted Zen teacher "tells me a story about St. Theresa of Avila. When she was a little girl, someone asked her what she wanted in life. She told them, “I want to see God.” “That’s all I’ve ever wanted to do,” Kevin tells me, “and Zen has provided the best way for me to do it.”.
https://rickmdaniel.blogspot.com/2014/05/528-father-kevin-hunt.html

JohnS

07-15-2022, 03:42 PM

As a former Catholic and seminarians back when, I agree with you

Gassho

John

SatTodayLAH

JohnS

07-15-2022, 03:53 PM

Leaving things as they are includes no judgement.

Jundo

07-15-2022, 08:36 PM

As a former Catholic and seminarians back when, I agree with you

Gassho

John

SatTodayLAH

Agree with whom? We have comments here since 2013, you need to help me out! :p

Gassho, J

Stlah

Shōnin Risa Bear

07-15-2022, 09:50 PM

Big fan of Merton's Seven Storey Mountain; also big fan of Merton's Zen and the Birds of Appetite. I used to read his paraphrases of Chuang Tze and go out and sit under the trees, stunned.

The birds flitted from branch to branch and picked bugs.

gassho
two-face sat/lah

JohnS

07-16-2022, 11:45 AM

the original post

Jundo

07-16-2022, 12:10 PM

As a former Catholic and seminarians back when, I agree with you

the original post

Well, as the discussion made more than clear, that depends on the person, how it is done, how wide the heart, how boundless the space there, and how doctrines are interpreted. There are many Catholic Zen folks, included quite a few excellent Priest-Roshi.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Rich

07-18-2022, 01:38 AM

This is the only place where i can read what i said 9 years ago

Cool

Sat/lah

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Meian

07-18-2022, 03:50 AM

Well, as the discussion made more than clear, that depends on the person, how it is done, how wide the heart, how boundless the space there, and how doctrines are interpreted. There are many Catholic Zen folks, included quite a few excellent Priest-Roshi.

Gassho, Jundo

STLahGassho2 meian stlh

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Zenkon

07-19-2022, 07:49 PM

A thought

Straddle
Too wide a river,
And both feet
Get wet

Gassho

Zenkon
sat/lah

Geika

07-19-2022, 07:53 PM

A thought

Straddle
Too wide a river,
And both feet
Get wet

Gassho

Zenkon
sat/lah

I like that.

Gassho
Sat, lah

Shokai

07-22-2022, 08:15 PM

There's a scene in "on Golden Pond" that depicts this poem Perfectly.

gassho, Shokai
stlah

JohnS

03-05-2023, 03:00 PM

Hi,

I was not raised Catholic (not with a name like "Cohen" http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu330/cthulhu19887/smileys/jewish_flag_smiley4.png ), but allow me to offer some perspectives on how Zen Buddhism may be perfectly compatible. Mind you, it takes an open mind on all "sides" of the issue to find the "sideless" side. Zen, especially Shikantaza, is a radical allowing of "what is" whatever the "is" is. So ...

- The belief in a God who created the world and still actively intervenes in his creation – we are talking about a theistic belief (i.e. God who is still active) as opposed to a deistic belief (i.e. a God who does not intervene and is completely passive).

If God intervenes (assuming there is a "God") ... Just Sit, chop wood and fetch water. If God does not intervene (or there is no "God") ... ... Just Sit, chop wood and fetch water.

- The belief in the original sin that is inherited by every new born child. Because of Adam’s and Eve’s original sin (you have to believe in them as well as a Catholic) every new born human is automatically a sinner as well (so much for fairness).

Sinner or no, original or not ... ... Just Sit, chop wood and fetch water. Just do as one can to abide by the Precepts ... not to kill, not to steal, not to covet one's neighbors wife (misusing sexuality), and all the same.

- The belief that Jesus Christ was the actual son of God (and whose mother was a virgin) who died on the cross to reconcile God with humankind.

If Jesus died for our sins and his mother was a virgin ... Just Sit, chop wood and fetch water. If Jesus did not, and his mother was not ... Just Sit, chop wood and fetch water.

- The belief in a real heaven/hell (as opposed to a mere metaphoric one) and the devil

Buddhists have had very literal beliefs in "hells". Many Buddhists traditionally did (still do!) believe in rebirth in heavens or hells based on volitional actions (Karma) in this and past lives. Some of the descriptions of "Buddhist Hells" are as hellacious as anything in Western imagination (although the images seem to have developed independently) ... complete with pitchforks and brimstone ... look here. Not for the squeemish. I have seen similar images here and there at temples in China, Japan, Thailand and Korea ... images that would make any Fire & Brimstone preacher in the Bible Belt faint. Just like in the West, images of "hell" were often used by Buddhist preachers to get people to "be good". WARNING: 18 and OVER

https://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&biw=1745&bih=868&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=buddhist+hell+temple&oq=buddhist+hell+temple&gs_l=img.3...15916.17342.0.17922.7.7.0.0.0.0.107.4 90.6j1.7.0...0.0...1c.1.6kyHCwPWJ54

I personally am a skeptical, but open minded, agnostic on literal, mechanical models of rebirth. It is not vital to my practice. But I do believe ... and see all the time ... people who make very terrible "hells" for themself and others in this life through their actions in this world. As I often say ...

Buddhism also has an image of "the Devil" ... the tempter "Mara" who, in the old Suttas, is often seen trying to lead Buddha off a good course. Does Mara exist literally? Well, like Kannon as a symbol of Compassion who exists through us and is "made real" when we choose our actions and whenever we do something caring and beneficial to others, Mara likewise exists through us when we do something harmful through the temptations of greed, anger and ignorance. In the sense, yes, they are real because compassion and generosity and selfishness and hate all exist as "real forces" in this universe as humans make them real through our words, thoughts and acts.

- The ethical basis of the Christian belief is completely different from Zen: as a Christian you follow the commandments because they come directly from God, the highest authority. This is a hierarchical structure – not just within the church.

Yes. Now, whether from On High or not ... don't kill, don't steal.

- And let’s not forget those little weird things like the belief that during the Holy Mass the wafer and wine are actually turned into the real flesh and blood of Jesus Christ (for Protestants this is only symbolic, but according to the Vatican, the head of the Catholic Church, this is not just symbolic, but real!)

Take Communion ... don't take Communion ... in any case, Just Sit, chop wood and fetch water.

By one interpretation, the Buddha never quite meant that there "was not a Creator" or "not not　a Creator". It was more that it is not important to his Insight. Many of the images we encounter in Buddhism are not different really ... Vairocana Buddha is the Universal Buddha of All Reality, the Dharmaskaya ... and Amida Buddha (Pure Land and Zen co-exist and have merged in much of Asia) is a figure who, if one merely has faith in him, will take you to his heaven when you die.

So, I must disagree.

I sometimes say that one can practice Zen Buddhism while also a Republican, Democrat or apolitical, Catholic, Jewish or Muslim, Atheist or Agnostic. I would say that, so long as it is a belief system that avoids hate, violence, excess greed and such (e.g., a "Zen Buddhist Nazi" will go a dark way), all can mix.

The same could be said of the vast majority of Zen Temples I have visited in Japan.

Gassho, J

This reply is absolutely AMAZING! It gave me clarity. Nine bows, teacher

Gassho

John

SatToday

Zenkon

03-07-2023, 03:42 AM

You say
Zen and Catholicism are not compatible.

The question - Is Zen compatible with Catholicism? - assumes there is an absolute answer - a yes or a no. In truth, there are only relative answers - in many ways they ARE compatible and in many ways they ARE NOT. Look for the compatible areas, and you will find compatibility. Look for incompatible areas, and you find incompatibility. The only thing 100% compatible with zen is - zen! And, the same with Catholicism. So, perhaps the real question is - what does it matter?

Gassho

Zenkon

Geika

03-07-2023, 06:04 AM

You say .

The question - Is Zen compatible with Catholicism? - assumes there is an absolute answer - a yes or a no. In truth, there are only relative answers - in many ways they ARE compatible and in many ways they ARE NOT. Look for the compatible areas, and you will find compatibility. Look for incompatible areas, and you find incompatibility. The only thing 100% compatible with zen is - zen! And, the same with Catholicism. So, perhaps the real question is - what does it matter?

Gassho

Zenkon

This has a lot of truth to it. As a former Catholic, my instinct is that the answer is no, but for so many others there appears to be no problem. And since I no longer believe in Catholicism it doesn't bother me where people blend lines because I don't believe in the lines in the first place.

Gassho
Sat, lah

Meian

03-07-2023, 11:07 AM

For me, Zen and Catholicism go well together. Yes, there are obvious differences, but I also find equanimity and balance in the precepts and themes of both religions. I did try to choose one or the other, but this is not possible for me at this time. It is something I have made peace with.

Gassho st

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Tokan

03-07-2023, 10:14 PM

Hey all

This is an interesting debate. I enjoy interfaith communication and collaboration and always believe that we should focus on what we agree on, such as ethical standards for human behaviour. I don't know why we need to reconcile a religion with any other beyond that, each to their own beliefs and practices. We don't have a Buddhist school in my city so I send my children to a Catholic school, for the spiritual and ethical/moral/value-based education. But I wouldn't send them to some other Christian schools because I don't want them to be indoctrinated with what I view as fairy tales. A friend asked me recently how, at work, I can tell the difference between someone who is delusional and someone who just has alternative beliefs. So I told him the creation story and what a modern Christian might see as God's active involvement with their daily life. I then asked him to replace the word God with the word 'alien' and asked him whether he now thought that story was delusional or belief based - tricky isn't it?

It has been a feature of the threads for years here that you can practice Zen without negatively impacting your other beliefs or participation in religion but, in my opinion, the key 'other' religions have little to offer Zen practice because Zen is quite distinct. If you believe in a God (of sorts) then I think there could be a wonderful union of the two, but if you do not believe in a theistic God then I don't see any value in saying that we believe in the 'Universe' as a concept that fulfils the function of God, I don't make a meaningful connection between the two at all. I do know that some sanghas and traditions honour the 'Unborn' or the 'Undying' as essentially a God concept, others still have Gods and Devas left-right-and-centre. At the end of the day I simply don't know, the whole thing (creation) is just weird, and wonderful too. Whatever helps you on your path towards doing good and not doing evil is a beautiful thing.

Gassho, Tokan

satlah