Tugas Gunadarma Gunadarma Tutorial VB.NET Download OST Anime Soundtrack Anime Opening Anime Ending Anime OST Anime Japan Download Lagu Anime Jepang

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 54

Thread: BOOK OF EQUANIMITY, case 9

  1. #1
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,906

    BOOK OF EQUANIMITY, case 9

    Now with the poor cat.

    Now with the shocking koan. Are we involved in Cat slicing? Is Zen a way to cut flesh and bones and marrow of poor and inocent animals? The Bible is also filled with these sacrificial stuff, where brother kills his own brother, where even God allows his Son to perish on the Cross.

    Are we a blood-thirsty tradition? I don't think so. The point of Nansen is clear. The whole assembly is dead silent. What is silent : their mouth, their head, their heart? When asked to speak, should they necessarily speak? What is required if anything here? Please dig this. Pick up the knife of investigation and have a go at your joints, life-blood vessels, cut down this blind mass of understanding. What is behind?

    So Nansen challenges the assembly. "If you can say a word, I won't cut it? The assembly made no response. Nanzen cut the cat in two". What is cutting the cat? Who is doing it? You see, I often do it, I am a cat-cutter if I look at this being a sharp and witty way to represent to represent dualistic thinking. That's all we do, all day, cutting the world into pieces, cutting others from ourselves, cutting here from now, separating mind and body, looking at things or people being good or bad, great and not so great, going at war everyday from morning to evening and preaching peace with our dead lips. The words of reason, the law of men or gods, they all divide, painfully so reality itself. Killing the cat, everything bleeds.

    Cutting is wise, cutting is great, cutting into one is the deepest and real answer. The action that cuts everything, even the cutting itself. How do we cut things into one, how do we behold the sword that slashes things into oneness, or rather into neither one, nor two? In our life, how to manifest this. cutting the cat into life, cutting others into oneself and oneself into others? How to we stop with the slaughter of everything and everyone?

    Joshu's answer? What is it? Where do we get the real answer from? Where do we speak from when the world bleeds?

    The story goes, a cat died. Every week many animals have to die to feed me. I don't kill them myself. I leave that to others. My family was a family of hunters so I grew up with animal corpses laying in the bathroom, wild rabbits, pigeons, even good cuts of dears and wild bores. I left that karma of killing and worshipping guns behind but I did not leave the karma of killing the world, of cutting reality into pieces. And then looking at the mess and wanting to solve the jigsaw puzzle. Not until I met this path. The path made it so clear that I was the war I wanted to erradicate, I was the quarrel, the fight, the noise, the mess...

    So how does this practice makes two into one?


    gassho


    Taigu
    Last edited by Taigu; 07-17-2012 at 10:05 AM.
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  2. #2
    Treeleaf Unsui Yugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Midcoast Maine
    Posts
    2,028
    Blog Entries
    2
    Not two, not one, but only thinking makes it so.

    Gassho
    Yugen
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Please take all my comments with a grain of salt - I am a novice priest and anything I say is to be taken with a good dose of skepticism - Shodo Yugen

  3. #3
    Treeleaf Unsui Shokai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sarnia, Ontario Canada
    Posts
    2,108
    Blog Entries
    119
    gassho, Shokai, still learning the way and knowing nothing
    仁道 生開 - Jindo Shokai "Open to life in a benevolent way"
    Just another itinerant monk; go somewhere else to listen to someone who really knows.

  4. #4
    Thank you Taigu.

    Gassho
    Michael
    倫道 真現

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  5. #5
    Feed the hungry cat.
    Gassho,
    Kaishin

  6. #6
    Friend of Treeleaf Daido's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Corona, Ca
    Posts
    681
    Taigu said, "but I did not leave the karma of killing the world, of cutting reality into pieces. And then looking at the mess and wanting to solve the jigsaw puzzle."

    So how does this practice makes two into one?

    Once I stopped trying to answer this I realized there was no question.

    Gassho,

    Daido
    Jiken Daido - Unsui at Treeleaf's Brother Sangha, the Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage.

    Do not just accept what I say. Decide for yourself if it rings true for you

  7. #7
    Cut then suture, cut then suture, - a million times over.

    Cutting and dividing the absolute and intuition - when they are really one.

    Falling through the tear - the miniscule gap created by cutting - falling into
    both darkness and light.


    Cut,suture,cut,suture - the whole of life.

    Gassho

    Willow

  8. #8
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,906
    Very very touching words Willow.
    But maybe suture and cut are one and the same, when you cut two into one.

    Thank you for this amazing fresh mind of yours, our teacher.

    Gassho


    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  9. #9
    Can you cut the reality (the cat) in two? Yes you can, but it's not the reality (or the cat) any more.
    If I was in the assembly I've would've just snatched the cat from Nansen – no words are necessary. When you're a parent and your baby is in danger, or your own life is in danger – the instincts kick in, no time for thinking. That's how you cut the life into one – you become the action itself, you're not separate from it.
    Gassho,
    Andy

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by andyZ View Post
    That's how you cut the life into one – you become the action itself, you're not separate from it.
    .
    Gassho,
    Kaishin

  11. #11
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Rochester, NY, USA
    Posts
    5,323
    Taigu,

    I find myself very confused by this koan...I believe I understand some of its teachings, but I am still left with the simple question: Why did no one simply say, "Stop!" Perhaps the story is never meant to be taken literally, but regardless of what I have been taught I would have said to stop. Again, I'm sure I'm missing the point, but doesn't practice start with compassion? I find it difficult to move forward here.

    Gassho,
    Dosho
    Ordained Priest -In-Training & Shuso (Head Seat) for November - Ango 2014
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Please take what I say with a grain of salt, especially in matters of the Dharma!

  12. #12
    Hi Taigu and all!
    I have read this several times before this and pondered and cut it up myself a hundred times, worrying too much on what each bit meant (for example, Why in the hell did Joshu his shoes on his head? ) and there I went on, cutting it all up.

    Before pondering, the first time I read the Koan, my gut instinct was to have Meow'd as loud as I could, but that still would not "save the cat".

    I already divided right there (nothing to split, nothing to stitch, but boy oh boy do I ever need to put down the knife!)

    This practice does not make 2 into one or 1 in to 2, but allows both.

    Gassho
    Shohei

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Dosho View Post
    Taigu,

    I find myself very confused by this koan...I believe I understand some of its teachings, but I am still left with the simple question: Why did no one simply say, "Stop!" Perhaps the story is never meant to be taken literally, but regardless of what I have been taught I would have said to stop. Again, I'm sure I'm missing the point, but doesn't practice start with compassion? I find it difficult to move forward here.

    Gassho,
    Dosho
    I am with you there Dosho ... I too have read in several times and still find my mind going to the literal view ... I think I will sit with it some more.

    Thank you Taigu for the challenging opportunity.

    Gassho
    Michael
    倫道 真現

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Dosho View Post
    Taigu,

    I find myself very confused by this koan...I believe I understand some of its teachings, but I am still left with the simple question: Why did no one simply say, "Stop!" Perhaps the story is never meant to be taken literally, but regardless of what I have been taught I would have said to stop. Again, I'm sure I'm missing the point, but doesn't practice start with compassion? I find it difficult to move forward here.

    Gassho,
    Dosho
    My take is that all the monks were so caught up in their intellectual games, searching for that one magic word that would impress Nansen. So, they cut the cat just as much as Nansen. Instead, like Andy said, the best "speech" would have been rushing forward and grabbing the damn cat out of his hands! No intellectualization, just direct action. Save the cat by saving the cat, not with empty words.

    I dunno!
    Gassho,
    Kaishin

  15. #15
    Friend of Treeleaf Myozan Kodo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    2,106
    Chop chop!
    Cut to pieces.
    Chop chop!
    Cut into shape.

    When I cut myself, Me Oww!

    Gassho
    Myozan
    Last edited by Myozan Kodo; 07-19-2012 at 01:15 PM.
    Myozan Kodo
    Ordained Soto Zen Priest in Training
    Dublin, Ireland

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.
    "Here the way unfolds."

  16. #16
    Nansen's cat is dead.

    Long live Nansen's cat!

    Gassho,
    Kevin *slice!* Joko

  17. #17
    It's a war on war
    It's a war on war
    It's a war on war
    There's a war on

    You're gonna lose
    You have to lose
    You have to learn how to die...

    You have to die
    You have to die
    You have to learn how die
    if you wanna learn to be alive.

    -from one of my favorite poets, Jeff Tweedy.

    Cut the cut. Even still sometimes I miss that cat so much.

    gassho,
    a

  18. #18
    Member Thane's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Newtonhill, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
    Posts
    48
    Hi everyone

    I too struggled with this koan. On first reading, it is shocking to me, with the violent act apparently described. However, Taigu, you point out that this is a sharp and witty way to point out dualistic thinking. That helps Although confusing this is what the koan said to me. The monks, could be me or anyone, are caught up in their opinions about right and wrong and fixing in their minds how the world should be through concepts and ideas. Nansen's challenge to them, is deliberately shocking, to make them think and shake them out of their/our nested enclosures. I think they could have said any word, shirt, food, sand, to make Nansen stop. The point was not to think it through, conceptualise it, just act? The next line really confused me when Joshu puts his sandals on his head. Is it another example , to shock us out of our cosy thinking? His actions again showing that there is no intellectual answer to this, and tries to show we have to live our practice and just be here in the moment? Hence why Nansen says he could have saved the cat, because he just responded and did not intellectulise the question put to him?

    Well that's what it said to me. I think!

    Gassho

    Thane

  19. #19
    Chop cat, carry sandals.
    Drinking tea and eating rice.

  20. #20
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,906
    Hi Gary ...

    gassho


    T.
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  21. #21
    Hello,


    I'm in too much of a pseudo-poetry mood these days, which is why I will use a bit of intentionally blunt and slightly sexist prose this time.

    When asked to act in a decisive way, the whole sangha failed. Long before the poor cat was cut in two, the members of that congregation had cut off their own balls. They probably kept them next to the out house. If the questions and the authority of an abbott paralyse you so much, best to burn that robe with the cat's corpse. Waking up has nothing to do with pleasing anyone. Scream at Nansen, kick him in the nuts, grab that cat whatever....just don't get stuck in the swamp of trying to please another.

    When the going gets tough, the tough get going, or so they say.

    One cat and loads of pussies.


    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen
    Last edited by Hans; 07-20-2012 at 11:13 AM.
    Chudo Mongen, Ordained Novice Priest-in-Training

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    Hello,


    I'm in too much of a pseudo-poetry mood these days, which is why I will use a bit of intentionally blunt and slightly sexist prose this time.

    When asked to act in a decisive way, the whole sangha failed. Long before the poor cat was cut in two, the members of that congregation had cut off their own balls. They probably kept them next to the out house. If the questions and the authority of an abbott paralyse you so much, best to burn that robe with the cat's corpse. Waking up has nothing to do with pleasing anyone. Scream at Nansen, kick him in the nuts, grab that cat whatever....just don't get stuck in the swamp of trying to please another.

    When the going gets tough, the tough get going, or so they say.

    One cat and loads of pussies.


    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen

    This pleases the Abbot.

    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  23. #23
    This is a living functioning reality. Do something, say something to help all beings live, which includes the cat and yourself.
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

  24. #24
    Ha...was already going to post this, but now it looks like a bid to please the Abbot.



    ...Then, just as Nansen was about to draw his blade across the frightened cat, the thickest monk in the room stood up and said. "Master, put down the cat. We will bicker this morning , then go for our midday meal.... you can have a nap". Nansen complied without a thought.


    Gassho.
    大山

  25. #25
    We are often like the monks. Stuck, not knowing what to do or say. Stuck in our ego or fear. Between a rock and a hard place. How do we deal with this? How can we live with this? Examine this in the present moment. Sometimes action is non action.
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    Hello,


    I'm in too much of a pseudo-poetry mood these days, which is why I will use a bit of intentionally blunt and slightly sexist prose this time.

    When asked to act in a decisive way, the whole sangha failed. Long before the poor cat was cut in two, the members of that congregation had cut off their own balls. They probably kept them next to the out house. If the questions and the authority of an abbott paralyse you so much, best to burn that robe with the cat's corpse. Waking up has nothing to do with pleasing anyone. Scream at Nansen, kick him in the nuts, grab that cat whatever....just don't get stuck in the swamp of trying to please another.

    When the going gets tough, the tough get going, or so they say.

    One cat and loads of pussies.


    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen
    Hans ...

    Your pseudo-poetry mood is beauty ... wonderful!

    Gassho
    Michael
    倫道 真現

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  27. #27
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mormon Country
    Posts
    352
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaishin View Post
    My take is that all the monks were so caught up in their intellectual games, searching for that one magic word that would impress Nansen. So, they cut the cat just as much as Nansen. Instead, like Andy said, the best "speech" would have been rushing forward and grabbing the damn cat out of his hands! No intellectualization, just direct action. Save the cat by saving the cat, not with empty words.

    I dunno!
    Matt..... does that save the damn cat?
    Nothing Special

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by galen View Post
    Matt..... does that save the damn cat?
    I dunno!

    Show me your speech.
    Gassho,
    Kaishin

  29. #29
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mormon Country
    Posts
    352
    Thank you Taigu.


    Just stay with the cut.

    As there could have been a shout to cut, there could have been a shout to not cut.

    Just stay with the cut.. infinitely. No indecision decision. No judgement by the mirror of projection, judgement.

    Totally immersion into the cut seemingly Is the Way. The rest is thinking and not breathing. To cut or not to cut, to speak or not to speak. Nothing is needed... just be the cut!


    Now getting back to my projection.........




    galen
    Last edited by galen; 07-20-2012 at 04:29 PM.
    Nothing Special

  30. #30
    P.S. Welcome to Treeleaf, galen! Please do take a moment to share a bit about yourself with everyone (if you haven't already, I might have missed it): http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...ew-folks-(July)
    _/\_
    Last edited by Kaishin; 07-20-2012 at 09:23 PM. Reason: corrected link
    Gassho,
    Kaishin

  31. #31
    Damn this is a tough one, but I agree with just dping something. I catch myself waiting to help until I feel ready or good enough to do something. But thats just my ego. I get pissed when I'm not recognized. This is crippling at times. That all has to be dropped to just act.

    Was that catcut with Manjushris sword?

    Gassho

    Risho

    Ps thank you for all of your awesome posts

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Risho View Post
    I get pissed when I'm not recognized. This is crippling at times. That all has to be dropped to just act.

    Hey. Risho.... everybody does to some degree sometimes.. I spent years riding the wheel of fortune as an artist... being the star of the show "gifted" etc.. then down the other side to "out of style".... then back up. One year a gallery opening with people lined up to get in... media and so forth. Another year standing alone eating cheese and drinking too much wine.. then back again.. round and round... somebody,nobody,somebody,nobody..... it is insane, and crippling, and typical. No zazen= an insane wheel of fortune. Zazen= being sane.. getting off the wheel. That old wheel of becoming... samsara.


    Gassho, kojip
    大山

  33. #33
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,906
    Thank you Kojip forthese true and sincere words.

    Gassho

    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    So how does this practice makes two into one?
    No two to make it into one; not even one. What puzzles me most is the question what i would have said (being part of the assembly)...I dont know it.
    Gassho
    Myoku

  35. #35
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mormon Country
    Posts
    352
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaishin View Post
    I dunno!

    Show me your speech.
    Hi Matt,

    I do not have a speech, my comment was just what hit me at the time. It was not meant so much to call you out as it was my wondering from your post, is there a cat that needs saving. It seemed at the time, in your "I dunno!" , my question at the worst, would further provoke your thinking into your own quandary. Isn't that what Its all about?? It was me also thinking out loud, so to speak.... what needs to be saved. Its seems this saving, catching, holding onto, also keeps us stuck. Is there any need for jumping up, or down, for that matter. The koan seemed like it also might be telling/showing/representing, just sit there and witness; breathe, and then everything will fall in place or it won't. Most of us in our lives don't even realize there is a gap or cut that needs closing, and this seemed to represent that. Just knowing there is a difference or there is not, brings some liberating awareness, in and of itself.

    As far as knowing more about me , when you click on our names here, it takes us to the personal profiles of each of us. And when I click on yours, it tells us as much about you as you know about me (had to kid you there). I live in a very conservative state like yourself (a blessing in a way, to Way), St.George Ut, and I guess I am just living the dream/illusion and delusion, on my way to some liberation of this small self. Personally (and i am sharing with everyone here, when i could have sent you a personal EM) and this is probably weird (again), I feel we might know more about each other by reading posts, and maybe some dharma dueling/bantering, then reading something about a persons own illusional self. But I guess this self portrait (illusional phenomena) is also part of the process of being on the other side of the cut; which side, which cut? Just staying with the cut, looking both ways is liberation in and of Itself! Not many of the world of phenomena, even realize there is a gap or cut........... is there? Does it really matter?

    I dunno!

    Take care my new friend,
    galen
    Last edited by galen; 07-21-2012 at 11:07 PM.
    Nothing Special

  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    Thank you Kojip forthese true and sincere words.

    Gassho

    Taigu
    Thank you, Taigu.

    The wheel turns regardless, so long as I breath, and is no problem per se.

    Gassho, kojip
    大山

  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    Very very touching words Willow.
    But maybe suture and cut are one and the same, when you cut two into one.

    Thank you for this amazing fresh mind of yours, our teacher.

    Gassho


    Taigu
    Taigu - I'm still falling through the gap wondering if suture and cut are one and the same.
    I keep coming back to the fluidity of cutting and sewing the kesa - the significance of Buddha's
    patched robe. What you suggest feels right.

    Thank you for your thoughts/teaching

    Gassho

    Willow

  38. #38
    Kojip, thanks for your respone; i didn't have a chance to respond last night.

  39. #39
    Senior Member AlanLa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    East Texas
    Posts
    1,263
    Ok, this just hit me as I reread the koan. If you have siblings roughly your age you probably had this experience. You and your brother (or sister) were fighting over a toy and mom came in and said if you can't play nice or together then I am taking away your toy. And you and your brother (or sister) kept fighting until mom came up and snatched the toy away from the two of you. And you both cried. Mom is Nansen and you and your brother (or sister) are the monks.

    If I put myself in the place of those monks, this is how I experience this event/koan. I am in the east dorm and we are pissed at the west dorm's cat for some reason. It all started with some little event that no one can even recall anymore because now it's just a big feud, a running argument about that damn cat! Our egos are heavily involved now, so deeply involved that we can't see the silliness of the argument because of our deep desire to WIN the argument. Nansen sees this and says what he says to us feuding monks. We are so shocked that we don't know what to say. All he is asking is for us to speak from our hearts in order to save the cat, but we have lost our hearts as we have lost our way. And so we stare at him dumbly, and he thus cuts the cat to shock us back to the reality of here and now, the reality of life and death as just demonstrated to us quite dramatically. Life is too short to be caught up in ego arguments about a cat, a cat that is now dead, so better to get back to work. That's my take away. As for Joshu's sandals, his putting them on his head shows that he is not all wrapped up in his ego and can let the whole thing go. Speaking from the heart doesn't have to be serious; it can be silly, too.

    We are all guilty of saying things like, "If I was there I would've ..." It's easy to judge from afar, but when you are IN the situation, wrapped up IN the event, we generally behave like the small beings that we are. We've all been there after the fact, but to be there in that moment clearly and mindfully - when it is our very lack of clarity with abundant mindlessness that got us in that moment - well, that's the whole koan, isn't it? How can we speak from our heart when our ego is all wrapped in something else? We can, and we do. When situations demand it, sometimes we do. For me, this koan is saying I should do so a little more often. And how do I get better at that? Practice, practice, practice.
    Last edited by AlanLa; 07-22-2012 at 04:26 PM.
    AL (Jigen) in:
    Faith/Trust
    Courage/Love
    Awareness/Action!

  40. #40
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mormon Country
    Posts
    352
    Quote Originally Posted by AlanLa View Post
    Ok, this just hit me as I reread the koan. If you have siblings roughly your age you probably had this experience. You and your brother (or sister) were fighting over a toy and mom came in and said if you can't play nice or together then I am taking away your toy. And you and your brother (or sister) kept fighting until mom came up and snatched the toy away from the two of you. And you both cried. Mom is Nansen and you and your brother (or sister) are the monks.

    If I put myself in the place of those monks, this is how I experience this event/koan. I am in the east dorm and we are pissed at the west dorm's cat for some reason. It all started with some little event that no one can even recall anymore because now it's just a big feud, a running argument about that damn cat! Our egos are heavily involved now, so deeply involved that we can't see the silliness of the argument because of our deep desire to WIN the argument. Nansen sees this and says what he says to us feuding monks. We are so shocked that we don't know what to say. All he is asking is for us to speak from our hearts in order to save the cat, but we have lost our hearts as we have lost our way. And so we stare at him dumbly, and he thus cuts the cat to shock us back to the reality of here and now, the reality of life and death as just demonstrated to us quite dramatically. Life is too short to be caught up in ego arguments about a cat, a cat that is now dead, so better to get back to work. That's my take away. As for Joshu's sandals, his putting them on his head shows that he is not all wrapped up in his ego and can let the whole thing go. Speaking from the heart doesn't have to be serious; it can be silly, too.

    We are all guilty of saying things like, "If I was there I would've ..." It's easy to judge from afar, but when you are IN the situation, wrapped up IN the event, we generally behave like the small beings that we are. We've all been there after the fact, but to be there in that moment clearly and mindfully - when it is our very lack of clarity with abundant mindlessness that got us in that moment - well, that's the whole koan, isn't it? How can we speak from our heart when our ego is all wrapped in something else? We can, and we do. When situations demand it, sometimes we do. For me, this koan is saying I should do so a little more often. And how do I get better at that? Practice, practice, practice.
    Wow............. thank you, Alan. Thanks for sharing That!



    galen
    Nothing Special

  41. #41
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mormon Country
    Posts
    352
    Quote Originally Posted by willow View Post
    Taigu - I'm still falling through the gap wondering if suture and cut are one and the same.
    I keep coming back to the fluidity of cutting and sewing the kesa - the significance of Buddha's
    patched robe. What you suggest feels right.

    Thank you for your thoughts/teaching

    Gassho

    Willow
    Thank you, Willow..... for sharing your suture/cut symbolism of the dilemma this koan presents. If I may..... it seems your wondering, falling into gap take, puts you in a great position to have no further concern on this matter. It seems you have yourself centered in the gap/cut looking both ways/sides, and that is over half Way through this so-called battle. It may be, that this awareness alone will resolve itself with little or no more intellectualizing it from your gap position. Just being in the center with your awareness of being there, says a lot from my limited vantage point. Thank you for this.



    galen
    Nothing Special

  42. #42
    Senior Member Heisoku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Plymouth, Devon, UK
    Posts
    1,245
    Quote Originally Posted by AlanLa View Post
    How can we speak from our heart when our ego is all wrapped in something else? We can, and we do. When situations demand it, sometimes we do. For me, this koan is saying I should do so a little more often. And how do I get better at that? Practice, practice, practice.
    Thanks Al this hits my problem on my head. I would be so wrapped up in trying to think of a zen thing to say. Nansen had to cut the cat in the end to show the reality, the bone and marrow. Even so I still wouldn't know what to say.
    Now? Well I still don't know as I'd have to be in that situation, but it wouldn't be 'whatever', more like 'stop that cat!'
    Heisoku
    平 息

  43. #43
    Holy shit Alan, thank you for that. I didn't think of it in that light.

    Gassho

    Risho

  44. #44
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mormon Country
    Posts
    352
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaishin View Post
    P.S. Welcome to Treeleaf, galen! Please do take a moment to share a bit about yourself with everyone (if you haven't already, I might have missed it): http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...ew-folks-(July)
    _/\_
    Thanks Matt...... for the link, will get caught up to that soon.



    galen
    Nothing Special

  45. #45
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Mexico
    Posts
    3,044
    Cat is reality, reality is cat.

    We cut it in two with sharp swords only to see us mending it back.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

  46. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    Now with the poor cat.

    Now with the shocking koan. Are we involved in Cat slicing? Is Zen a way to cut flesh and bones and marrow of poor and inocent animals? The Bible is also filled with these sacrificial stuff, where brother kills his own brother, where even God allows his Son to perish on the Cross.

    Are we a blood-thirsty tradition? I don't think so. The point of Nansen is clear. The whole assembly is dead silent. What is silent : their mouth, their head, their heart? When asked to speak, should they necessarily speak? What is required if anything here? Please dig this. Pick up the knife of investigation and have a go at your joints, life-blood vessels, cut down this blind mass of understanding. What is behind?

    So Nansen challenges the assembly. "If you can say a word, I won't cut it? The assembly made no response. Nanzen cut the cat in two". What is cutting the cat? Who is doing it? You see, I often do it, I am a cat-cutter if I look at this being a sharp and witty way to represent to represent dualistic thinking. That's all we do, all day, cutting the world into pieces, cutting others from ourselves, cutting here from now, separating mind and body, looking at things or people being good or bad, great and not so great, going at war everyday from morning to evening and preaching peace with our dead lips. The words of reason, the law of men or gods, they all divide, painfully so reality itself. Killing the cat, everything bleeds.

    Cutting is wise, cutting is great, cutting into one is the deepest and real answer. The action that cuts everything, even the cutting itself. How do we cut things into one, how do we behold the sword that slashes things into oneness, or rather into neither one, nor two? In our life, how to manifest this. cutting the cat into life, cutting others into oneself and oneself into others? How to we stop with the slaughter of everything and everyone?

    Joshu's answer? What is it? Where do we get the real answer from? Where do we speak from when the world bleeds?

    The story goes, a cat died. Every week many animals have to die to feed me. I don't kill them myself. I leave that to others. My family was a family of hunters so I grew up with animal corpses laying in the bathroom, wild rabbits, pigeons, even good cuts of dears and wild bores. I left that karma of killing and worshipping guns behind but I did not leave the karma of killing the world, of cutting reality into pieces. And then looking at the mess and wanting to solve the jigsaw puzzle. Not until I met this path. The path made it so clear that I was the war I wanted to erradicate, I was the quarrel, the fight, the noise, the mess...

    So how does this practice makes two into one?


    gassho


    Taigu
    Compassion.
    gassho, Shogen

  47. #47
    Senior Member Ekai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Southeastern Wisconsin
    Posts
    570
    So how does this practice makes two into one?

    For me, this practice doesn't make two into one but helps me see that everything is one. Seeing through the delusions, attachments and the ego to simply just be. Letting go of the ego allows for clear seeing and the capacity to respond with compassion and wisdom rises. If the monks could see that everything is one and were willing to let go of their egos, maybe they would have responded with compassion towards the cat by telling Nansen to stop instead of being crippled by their dualistic views and fears of not looking good in front of the teacher and the other monks.

    Just my 2 cents anyway.

    Gassho,
    Ekai

  48. #48
    This Koan resonates for me with the prior Koan in the collection, the Zen Master Fox. Was Nansen subject to Karma for killing this cat, or free of Karma all along?

    YES! For never a cat to cut in two, and never a "two" or a Nansen from the start. However, if Nansen murdered the cat, Nansen must pay the price nonetheless.

    At times in Buddhist history, swordsman and soldiers used such absolutist reasoning to say that killing human beings in war was also free of Karma ... that there ultimately was no one to kill, no sword and no killer. So, this doctrine is very dangerous, and we must be careful. We must remember that there is also a price to pay in any act of violence.

    That is why I do not think that Nansen, as an Ordained Buddhist Priest, actually killed the cat (if the story is even a historical event). Buddhist Priests are sometimes iconoclasts, but there are certain lines even a priest won't step over (and even though, in old China, cats may have been thought of as no more than pests and vermin ... about like killing a rat in the kitchen). Thus, cutting the cat in two is figurative ... or better said, the cat and the whole world are cut in two (divided this from that, self from other, life from death) by the arguing monks who cannot pierce Wholeness. If a monk had spoken the right word of Wholeness, the cat would be saved from death ... for in Wholeness, no birth no death and no cat to save. It is much as we vow to "Save All Sentient Beings" in part by teaching Sentient Beings that there are no Sentient Beings in need of saving from the start! The sword cuts into One!

    Joshu spoke such a demonstrative word of Wholeness by placing his shoes on his head. Some say this is a sign of mourning the dead in old China, mourning the poor blind monks as much as the cat. Some say that Joshu's meaning is that the arguing monks were seeing things upside down ... like being worn by a pair of shoes instead of wearing them. In any case, Joshu spoke Wholeness in a world of birth and death, saved the cat ... never in need of saving.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-27-2012 at 02:48 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  49. #49
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mormon Country
    Posts
    352
    Thank you, Jundo, nice!

    "Thus, cutting the cat in two is figurative ... or better said, the cat and the whole world are cut in two (divided this from that, self from other, life from death)"...... and seemingly dividing our self from Self, maybe the most important aspect to being this Wholeness.

    "It is much as we vow to "Save All Sentient Beings" in part by teaching Sentient Beings that there are no Sentient Beings in need of saving from the start!"...... already in your knowingness, Jundo, of course, the Ultimate saving All Sentient Beingness is at the highest form of Enlightenment, it can only happen by saving ourSelf first and foremost; nothing that you can learn here from me , just sayin.

    Thank you for this insightful teaching !!




    galen
    Last edited by galen; 07-26-2012 at 07:08 PM.
    Nothing Special

  50. #50
    Interesting about saving sentient beings. When I first start things I'm an eager beaver. I want to be what I'm idealizing so badly! If I could just be a Zen practitioner, like the carefree masters in the texts I would be free of problems! I've got to save those sentient beings! But after ideals have faded and the reality of practice blossoms saving sentient beings by trying to help is arrogant and presumptuous. Most of the time its about not being such an a-hole. Its really the simple things like not ripping someones head off because they said the wrong thing. Perhaps they are having a bad day and I could share a smile.

    Sorry for the rambling. Thanks Jundo

    Gassho

    Risho

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •