Tugas Gunadarma Gunadarma Tutorial VB.NET Download OST Anime Soundtrack Anime Opening Anime Ending Anime OST Anime Japan Download Lagu Anime Jepang

Results 1 to 45 of 45

Thread: BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 8

  1. #1

    BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 8



    Case 7 never ends, yet now comes ...

    CASE 8 - Hyakujo's (Pai-chang's) Fox

    A Zen Teacher claims that, in Great Enlightenment, one is free of Karmic effects, life and death, rebirth. In return, upon his death, he find himself trapped in a fox's body for 500 rebirths. Payback!

    The trapped fox (in the guise of an old man) then hears from another Teacher that, in Great Enlightenment, one does -not- evade and cannot ignore Karmic effects, life and death, rebirth.

    Upon so hearing, the fox attains Great Enlightenment, is freed from further rebirth as a fox, perhaps from all rebirths, Karmic effects, life and death!


    The fellow denying Karma and rebirth is thus trapped in Karma and Rebirth, while upon hearing that even an enlightenment master -cannot- escape Karma and rebirth, he seems to escape Karma and rebirth. Sure sounds like a "not-damned-damned if you do, damned-not-damned if you don't" situation!

    Or (I suggest to you) this is another case of Zen Masters speaking out of "both sides of the no sided mouth". Perhaps, despite seeming quite opposite, both ways are True at once depending on the perspective (and dropping of perspectives).

    For example ...

    Imagine a painting on canvas ... an imaginary painted scene depicting your life, just oils or water colors spread on a blank, white canvas. All that is shown in a painting is not really there, much like an illusion or a dream. In a Buddha's eye, our lives are also a kind of dream, constantly being painted and repainted on a changing canvas surface. To the viewer, taken in by the illusion, all may appear so real, a constantly evolving image changing over time. It may appear as if lives come and go, people are born and grow old, time passes ... but all is an illusory scene painted on a pristine, underlying "ready for anything" canvas of open possibilities. The canvas never comes and goes ... is beyond birth and death ... no matter the changing scene reflected on its surface.

    Furthermore, the hands of the painter are our own hands, painting a scene of our own lives. A dream it might be, but a dream we must live in! And it is up to the painter whether he will paint skillfully or unskillfully, whether a picture of harmony and beauty, or violence and ugliness. The canvas and paints will host it all, our choice. The content continues from the past, but is also constantly renewed and REBORN ... new scenes appearing as effects of all before, and the old fading away.

    Oh, for sure, in this complex world painted by countless factors and painters, life is a group effort! It is actually not one painter, but endless painters and mother nature too holding countless brushes, each joining in to create this huge work of art we call "our world". Unfortunately, we often find ourself placed in a scene or situation that nature or others around us have created. We do not have total control over what life will become ... yet, to a degree we often fail to realize, the life we paint for our self is truly up to ourself. How will you wield that brush? Will you leave this world more beautiful for your presence, or leave it covered with ugly scars and scenes that may take generations to erase? It is up to your choices. Your choices add or subtract from the picture, cause lasting effects.

    Most folks in life get suckered into the dream painting, not knowing that it is a pure, white, timeless canvas of possibilities just below the surface appearances ... also not knowing that there is a brush in their hands. It is important to know life from all such perspectives. In fact, how pitiful and lifeless would be a blank campus without its painters and painting ... for an empty canvas is cold and vacant. But how pitiful too if we then waste this life in ugly grafitti, bloody images of violence and pornographic greed ... losing sight of the potential for beauty rising from the open, boundless cloth that holds all the world without rejection. In fact, the beauty of "Emptyness" does not mean simply discovering an empty virgin canvas and leaving it empty and unused. Rather, the real beauty of Emptiness is the constant interplay of canvas and our always emptying colorful paint cans, in constant moments of life creation ... painting a gorgeous living work with a master's hand!

    To rephrase our Koan today, don't be an unenlightened prisoner in one's life picture, framed in and fooled by the scene no matter how "realistic" it looks to the untrained eye. On the other hand, even a so-called "enlightened" master who has an "opening" and discovers the canvas and fiction of the paints should not stop there, just letting the canvas sit empty, content in the blankness, thinking perhaps that since all is a "fiction" then nothing more matters, that he is done with his work. That is also an ignorant view, and does not realize how real life is. A painter who paints a scene should not forget the flow of the canvas and endless possibilities, nor that all is just for creative fun and imaginative self-expression! However, he must paint his real-fiction ... live his dream-creation ... and do so well, reaping what he sows.

    And that is how life, death, Karma, rebirth is just a dream ... and that is how we make each real, and our actions matter.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Dogen was such a speaker out of "both sides of his no sided mouth". In his writings on the Fox Koan, he often cautioned against seeing things from only one side or the other, and reminded us to experience each brushstroke of each moment of life as the "pivot point" where paint meets canvas in our hands. Don't get trapped (as so many Zen students do) in thinking that this practice is to simply find the blank canvas, emptying the head of thoughts as if grabbing turpentine to strip away all the surface paint that covers the whiteness up, thinking that by doing so one is finding one's "Original Nature". The canvas is always here, brought to life in the very things that you think covers it. He wrote (in Daishugyo) ...

    As a rule, those who have never truly encountered or heard about the Buddha Dharma say, “After he had completely rid himself of the wild fox, he returned to the ocean of his Original Nature. Even though he was reduced to being a wild fox for a while due to his delusion, after he had had a great awakening, he shed being a wild fox and returned to his Original Nature.” They mean by this that he returned to some innate, unchanging self which non-Buddhists speak of. [But] this is not the Buddha Dharma. If they were to say that a wild fox is devoid of Original Nature or that a wild fox has no innate enlightenment, such [also] would not be the Buddha Dharma.
    The Great Canvas is always right here, despite our ignorance. It is not a place to get to by leaving the painting. Our Great Practice now is the pivot point, where brush meets canvas and the rubber meets the road, the place where Cause and Effect are fully realized. It is not enough to have merely an intellectual understanding of this, or just to pay it lip service. Rather, we must bring it to life in our training, practice, lives ... active brushstroke by active brushstroke:

    Further, there are many old [teachers] who have contended that saying ‘not being subject to’ and ‘not being blind to’ [not evading, ignoring cause and effect] are essentially the same, but they have not yet directly experienced how ‘not being subject to’ and ‘not being blind to’ are related. Consequently, they have not explored through their training the skin, flesh, bones, and marrow of falling into the body of a wild fox, nor have they explored through their training the skin, flesh, bones, and marrow of dropping off the mind of a wild fox.
    He wrote a few years later (in Jinshin inga), critical of those who believe that ... since all is as a dream, how we act has no ramifications ...

    In present-day Sung China, among those doing the practice of seated meditation, the folks who are the most in the dark are those who do not know that the teaching of "not being subject to cause and effect" is a false view. Sad to say ... heretical gangs have formed who deny cause and effect. Those who are exploring the Matter through training with their Master should by all means hasten to make clear the fundamental principle of cause and effect. The later Hyakujō’s principle of not being blind to cause and effect means not ignoring the presence of causality. Hence, the underlying principle is clear: we feel the effects of the causes that we put into action.

    ... To summarize, the principle of cause and effect is quite clear, and it is totally impersonal [in its workings]: those who fabricate evil will fall into a lower state, whereas those who practice good will rise to a higher state, and without the slightest disparity. If cause and effect had become null and void, Buddhas would never have appeared in the world and our Ancestral Master [Bodhidharma] would not have come from the West.
    Our Preface to today's Koan reminds us neither to fall into the Oneness of the canvas, nor become a prisoner of life trapped in a painted fox body. The Wise leap free of both!

    If you put this One in mind, you’ll enter hell like a flying arrow. If you swallow a drop of wild fox’s drool, you can’t vomit it for thirty years.

    We are also reminded that the Buddhist Teachings and Precepts were created as guideposts for folks who have a tendency to mess up life bigtime ...

    It is not that the decree of the western Heaven (the Buddha-dharma of India) is strict, just that rascals’ karma is heavy. Are there any such offenders here?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Questions ...

    How are you painting your life now, and how would you like to paint it? Is Zen Practice helping to make you a better painter?

    Bonus questions ...

    Most folks in life get suckered into the dream painting, trapped in a frame, painted into a corner. It is important in our Practice to experience the open, pristine "canvas" where life is constantly realized like a work of art. Why is it important neither to be "trapped in life's illusions" nor "fall into the blank, pristine canvas, becoming trapped there"? Does our Zen Practice help us learn to jump from one to the other, and to see the interplay of both? Are you getting better at doing so?



    *****

    Our talk during the Zazenkai this week was also on all this, and I ask everyone to have a listen if they have time. The talk is a little long today (about 35 minutes ... though maybe seeming more like several lifetimes!). It begins near the 1:49:00 mark):

    Last edited by Jundo; 07-10-2012 at 11:19 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  2. #2
    If anyone would like to look at a couple of old postings on Karma and Rebirth ...

    Buddha-Basics (Part XV) — Karma
    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...VI-%28Karma%29

    Buddha-Basics (Part XVI) — Rebirth?
    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...fter-Death-%29
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-08-2012 at 04:34 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  3. #3
    Thanks Jundo!
    This reminds me of something I read somewhere (I think it may have been in a book by Sue Blackmore,) that if science has things right & everything is just particles following physical laws, then free will is an illusion & we are not responsible for our actions. However, in order to live our lives, we must TAKE responsibility for actions.

    Not sure if I agree with the lack of free will (in get a headache thinking about it) but it seems quite similar.

    _/\_

    Ade

  4. #4
    Senior Member Nengyo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    South Georgia
    Posts
    577
    That was a good teaching. Regarding your being kicked off of a Buddhist forum, I'm always amazed at how fast human's can latch on to dogmatic thinking. Not just in theistic religions, but in Buddhism and with individual scientist (although science as a whole as a fairly good anti-dogma system built in.)

    Quote Originally Posted by adrianbkelly View Post
    Thanks Jundo!
    This reminds me of something I read somewhere (I think it may have been in a book by Sue Blackmore,) that if science has things right & everything is just particles following physical laws, then free will is an illusion & we are not responsible for our actions. However, in order to live our lives, we must TAKE responsibility for actions.

    Not sure if I agree with the lack of free will (in get a headache thinking about it) but it seems quite similar.

    _/\_

    Ade
    You should read Sam Harris' book on free will. It was short, sweet, and, for me at least, dispelled any notion of free will. For me it was very much in line with Buddhism because it proposes that the illusion of a separate "self" is tied to the illusion of free will. In essence your brain makes a choice that that "you" have no part in. After making this choice it later informs your ego or sense of self. Most of our internal dialog is a post hoc justifying of those decisions. At the very least it was interesting stuff to ponder.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Dogen was such a speaker out of "both sides of his no sided mouth". In his writings on the Fox Koan, he often cautioned against seeing things from only one side or the other, and reminded us to experience each brushstroke of each moment of life as the "pivot point" where paint meets canvas in our hands. Don't get trapped (as so many Zen students do) in thinking that this practice is to simply find the blank canvas, emptying the head of thoughts as if grabbing turpentine to strip away all the surface paint that covers the whiteness up, thinking that by doing so one is finding one's "Original Nature". The canvas is always here, brought to life in the very things that you think covers it. He wrote (in Daishugyo) ...
    It is a relief to read a quote like this amid all the Zen talk of “true Nature”, and boy does it really cut to the core for me.

    If being stuck in Form is painful, being stuck in Emptiness is tragic. Saying life is an illusion implies an absolute Self above the “little self” that is “real”.. and falls into the ultimate sociopathic narcissism and indifference. It makes the garden variety narcissism of everyday egocentricity pale by comparison. It kills compassion and morality...

    Both Samsara and Nirvana are “real”, If practice is not both the reality of unconditioned freedom, and the full heartbreak of living and loving mother and son and world.....equally, it is a sham... and I give up.


    As far as painting this karmic picture goes... It ain't easy, because karma is also the conditioned habit-fibre of this body and mind, and as a painter I know, there is no end to learning to paint with coloured mud. Little steps... and nowhere to fall.

    ...a muddled response maybe.

    Gassho. kojip
    Last edited by Daizan; 07-08-2012 at 02:06 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kojip View Post
    Both Samsara and Nirvana are “real”, If practice is not both the reality of unconditioned freedom, and the full heartbreak of living and loving mother and son and world.....equally, it is a sham... and I give up.
    Wonderful, Kojip, thank you! _/\_


    @ Catfish Thanks for the recommendation! I have read Daniel Dennett's "Freedom Evolves" twice, but still don't understand it!

    _/\_

    Ade

  7. #7
    Thanks Jundo

    Daido


  8. #8
    Treeleaf Unsui Yugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Midcoast Maine
    Posts
    1,846
    Blog Entries
    2
    Jundo,
    Of all the dharma talks and all the commentaries in the years I have been here, this one really speaks to me. I have read it several times, and will no doubt reread it many more. But for now, a deep bow of gratitude.

    Gassho
    Yugen
    Last edited by Yugen; 07-09-2012 at 03:07 AM.
    Please take all my comments with a grain of salt - I am a novice priest and anything I say is to be taken with a good dose of skepticism - Shodo Yugen

  9. #9
    Thank you Jundo ... like I have said in the past, I have always enjoyed and connect with you approach to the Dharma ... simple and clear.

    Gassho,
    Michael
    真 眼

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Heisoku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Plymouth, Devon, UK
    Posts
    1,198
    I don't know anything about 'True Nature' and nowhere near enough about the 12 fold stages of causation but...
    ...in each moment it feels as if there is a purity of existence of sheer reality, which also contains the karmic resonances of previous actions. These accumulated effects change so each karmic effect develops, breaks, then subsides. As we develop our practice, then old karma takes time to play out but our practice develops new karmas in tune with this purity of existence of sheer reality that will again develop, break then subside. The only difference being that our continuous practice maintain this 'new' karma.
    I think this is how I see it working in my life as this wonderful practice cleans out habits of living that were creating 'negativities' and generates a way of living that develops naturally in a wholesome way which transforms relationships and day to day doings. This is how I am seeing each small thing as a manifest of a much greater and to me unknown whole. I hope this makes some kind of sense? It feels difficult to explain but is something I am experiencing.
    The canvas is alive and buzzing with potentialities and the unknown.
    Thank you for this teaching Jundo.
    Last edited by Heisoku; 07-09-2012 at 07:58 PM.
    Heisoku
    平 息

  11. #11
    Thank you for sharing this painting with us!


    The right tools, instruction, and practice we proceed to cut out suffering yet we have a dull scalpel, dull sense of timing or awareness...subtle ego slips in wanting to be that much more right! Believing I am doing right, I proceed with out thought of others karama in play (right? since I did the right thing so I'm golden!), giving the response that is "absolutely right".
    I was not turned into a fox but I have ended up chasing my tail.

    How are you painting your life now, and how would you like to paint it? Is Zen Practice helping to make you a better painter?
    I am learning to paint with some more patience and to actually get paint on that thing, rather than hesitating, fretting over what ifs. That said my non-goal is to allow the strokes to be, to be open letting others paint on it too - well to be honest to relinquish drive for control there, since others are already painting on it- wanting otherwise or control just adds to the suffering!

    Zen practice is painting me and so I experience the brush strokes, the paint and the canvas, and that has pointed out to me that we are all creating this master piece, the empty canvas, all things be it child's muddy mess or a Renoir and neither perfect, neither flawed.

    Most folks in life get suckered into the dream painting, trapped in a frame, painted into a corner. It is important in our Practice to experience the open, pristine "canvas" where life is constantly realized like a work of art. Why is it important neither to be "trapped in life's illusions" nor "fall into the blank, pristine canvas, becoming trapped there"? Does our Zen Practice help us learn to jump from one to the other, and to see the interplay of both? Are you getting better at doing so?
    Zen practice does help me realize both sides of the coin, see the painting and the pristine canvas, and like all things it takes practice, making mistakes and learning from them, a humble approach and it never ends - thinking other wise I am stuck again and that still happens

    Gassho
    Shohei

  12. #12
    Treeleaf Unsui Shokai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sarnia, Ontario Canada
    Posts
    2,076
    Blog Entries
    119
    Thank you for this teaching Jundo;

    Sometimes I stay within the lines. Other times I stray from the 'proper' form. Mostly I'd say It's all good. From time to time I remind myself what's really important. I feel my practice has certainly increased my awareness and patience. You, my friend, adharmic agnostic that you are, may come back as a wild fox but, not to worry, I shall probably accompany you as a domesticated goat.
    gassho, Shokai, still learning the way and knowing nothing
    仁道 生開 - Jindo Shokai "Open to life in a benevolent way"
    Just another itinerant monk; go somewhere else to listen to someone who really knows.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by adrianbkelly View Post
    Thanks Jundo!
    This reminds me of something I read somewhere (I think it may have been in a book by Sue Blackmore,) that if science has things right & everything is just particles following physical laws, then free will is an illusion & we are not responsible for our actions. However, in order to live our lives, we must TAKE responsibility for actions.

    Not sure if I agree with the lack of free will (in get a headache thinking about it) but it seems quite similar.

    _/\_

    Ade
    Oh these forums are on fire lately; the discussion is really great here. I have to disagree that we don't have free will, but I also have to agree. And I do agree with your statement that we must take responsibility for our actions.

    From an absolute perspective, we're just "dust in the wind dude". Karma cause and effect beyond our control. There are so many factors that inform our day to day activities: race, culture, age, religion, upbringing, genetics.

    However, we do in the end have the ability to choose how we react. We can't control our situation (in a way we can based on previous actions), not entirely at least. But we can choose to take responsibility. We can choose to atone for missing the mark on our Bodhisattva vows (that is inspired by "Realizing Genjokoan"; a great book by the way).

    Taking responsibility for our reactions and ourselves is free will. But interestingly, on this path, you have to ask "Is there any other choice but to take responsibility?" when living sanely... from a perspective of understanding the interdependence of everything. From that perspective there is no free will, because there is only one road to take.

    Gassho,

    Risho

    P.S. this is not my response to this koan; I'm still digesting that. lol

  14. #14
    Karma and No Karma, not two, not one.

    And the long version goes: Sitting in Shikantaza, where should there be Karma ? But at this moment its also there, hopefully, creating good karma, wisdom, compassion. So basically its always there, Karma and No Karma, at the same time. Thus its not two. But saying this, saying its one, once again an idea is born, something in the mind, not what truly is.

    _()_
    Myoku

  15. #15
    Senior Member Marek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Cracow, Poland
    Posts
    177
    Jundo, thank you. This talk is indeed worth of reading couple of times as an important reminder.

    Zen practice does help me realize both sides of the coin, see the painting and the pristine canvas, and like all things it takes practice, making mistakes and learning from them, a humble approach and it never ends - thinking other wise I am stuck again and that still happens
    I belive it is true for everyone. It is definitely true for me.
    Thank you Shohei

    Last edited by Jundo; 07-10-2012 at 10:38 PM.
    Gassho,
    Marek

  16. #16
    I believe that practice itself is making good karma. In dealing with past karma practice is all I rely on.
    I also believe in past lives but they are my ancestors and everthing else.
    so if I have to give an answer to making cause and effect it is yes. But I don't. Know anything except being hungry
    tired and smelly.
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

  17. #17
    I will have to re-read the koan and commentaries several times, as when I think I've "got it," I lose it... Thank you for your long comments, Jundo.

    Is this anything like seeing mountains as mountains, then as not-mountains, then as mountains again (but in a seeing-through-it way)? Trying to apply an analogy here that may not fit.

    Signed,
    The Fox
    Gassho,
    Kaishin

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaishin View Post
    Is this anything like seeing mountains as mountains, then as not-mountains, then as mountains again (but in a seeing-through-it way)? Trying to apply an analogy here that may not fit.

    Signed,
    The Fox
    Hah! I would say so ... although mountains don't choose to move (I assume), and don't say or think or intentionally do things (compared to people anyway) ... so probably no Karma making there by mountains. "Karma" is typically defined as the volitional words, thoughts and actions of sentient beings (like you and me) and their effects.

    Dogen included the mountains as "sentient beings", and in Shobogenzo said they "walk" ... but I don't believe he meant that in the normal way of seeing things.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-10-2012 at 11:14 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  19. #19
    Member Thane's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Newtonhill, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
    Posts
    48
    Thanks Jundo for your comments on this koan. I think i need to read this many times as there is a lot in this one!

    I took from this koan that i need to not grasp concepts with my mind like the monk did when he answered his student 'he does not fall into cause and effect'. He was making statements from concepts and not lived experience.

    I believe that Zen practice does make me a better painter of my life. By realising there is a blank canvas beneath it all but that the painting and canvas must interact and are one. I can fall into the trap of thinking that the canvas is the real show and forget that the painting on it is just as important. Zen practice helps me maintain this view.

    Gassho

    Thane

  20. #20
    The following quote kind of sums up what I get from this koan.

    "I don't knowing anything about Buddhas of the past, present, or future. But I know that cats exist, and I know that cows exist." Eisai to Dogen (via Brad)

    Gassho
    Gary
    Drinking tea and eating rice.

  21. #21
    Member Thane's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Newtonhill, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
    Posts
    48
    Hi Jundo

    Thanks for you talk on this koan during Zazenkai, i found it very helpful. I like the phrase that you used about the two sides of the one sided mouth. I find that very useful for understanding this koan and karma in general. Thank you.

    Gassho

    Thane

  22. #22
    Hi Jundo - just to say that I've read this - and will be reading it several times over before I write anything.
    It's come at a good time for me - providing clarity over some questions that arose following reading the Brazier
    text you recommended ( eight types of enlightenment) and his following chapters on Critical Buddhism.

    I will listen to the talk now,

    Thank you for your teaching

    Gassho

    Willow

  23. #23
    Been turning this one over and over. Still don't know. But to answer your questions:

    How are you painting your life now, and how would you like to paint it? Is Zen Practice helping to make you a better painter?

    - Been painting my life with eight brushes at once. Quite a mess. Zen practice over the past few years has helped me to remove some of them. So now I'm painting with maybe three or four.

    Why is it important neither to be "trapped in life's illusions" nor "fall into the blank, pristine canvas, becoming trapped there"? Does our Zen Practice help us learn to jump from one to the other, and to see the interplay of both? Are you getting better at doing so?

    You can't run around cluelessly forever. But you can't sit on your ass forever either. Got to get up and live life. I think practice has brought heightened awareness to this interplay. Realizing that both are necessary views, but neither is whole in and of itself. And the combination isn't whole either. There's something else. A dance, as you say.

    _/\_

    5259796286_3595181f1d_n.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Kaishin; 07-11-2012 at 03:27 PM.
    Gassho,
    Kaishin

  24. #24
    Jumping in late to the club here. About two years late. Back from the darkness...

    I'm almost forty years old now. For literally twenty years I've been searching for the answer to this question: "What should I be doing with my life?" Sometimes I rephrase this as "What career should I choose?"

    In the past twenty years, I've considered a dizzying array of career options as diverse as chef and computer programmer, musician and stockbroker, novelist and data analyst, and on and on. I have driven myself into depths of self-hatred, heights of misplaced anger, wastelands of self-isolation, etc. When, after about ten years of this, I was finally able to let someone (now my wife) close enough to observe this madness, I drove her crazy, too, though her countervailing love and support over the last decade has helped dredge my silted soul from the muck of all of this idiocy.

    Only in the last month or two have I finally begun to realize these simple facts:

    1. I am not what I do for a living
    2. The career I have is just fine, thank you
    3. I will not find "happiness" outside myself, no matter what career I have
    4. My life is incredibly good. I have far more joy than sadness, far more love than hate. What sadness I do have is 95% self-generated. What hate I do experience is 100% self-hate.

    In other words (and to tie it into this week's discussion), I've been painting a picture of suffering for twenty years, actively and deliberately painting it, then actively and deliberately hiding my brushes behind my own back so as to make it easier to believe that my painting is my reality, is the only reality, is, what's more, an objective and immutable reality.

    For almost as long as I have been studying Zen, I had been one of those who have sought the blank canvas, even as I covered it. Now, with my muck-covered face, I realize that the canvas is never blank, never has been, and never will be. At the same time, without the canvas, the paint would be drops falling through the air, not forms on the canvas. And here's where words fall short, because the canvas is also perfectly blank, the paint also perfectly formed in midair. It all exists separately and together.

    It's a bit like writing a too-long post, then looking up and blinking to realize there is a whole universe outside the grey lines on the glowing white screen, but that the universe contains those lines and that screen, wouldn't be what it is without them.

    It's hard to keep them both in mind, separate. But, we don't have to. We don't have to keep them in mind at all, for they are mind. If you're at the bottom of the pool with a glass in your hand, are you holding a glass of water or simply holding a glass? Do you really have to find an answer to that question?

    Gassho,
    Kevin
    aka. Joko

  25. #25
    Senior Member Heisoku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Plymouth, Devon, UK
    Posts
    1,198
    Thanks for your post Kevin...it rings!
    Heisoku
    平 息

  26. #26
    Ugh, I know those questions. Sometimes they are relevant, but obsessing over them drives me nuts. lol

    Gassho,

    Risho

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Heisoku View Post
    Thanks for your post Kevin...it rings!
    I'll second that! I think you just saved me 10 future years of the same tail-chasing... been contemplating the same things recently.

    _/\_
    Gassho,
    Kaishin

  28. #28
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Mexico
    Posts
    2,703
    I know I have a very limited vision of this koan and I really need to study it a lot more, but it moved something inside me.

    Causation. That's a word I seldom had studied.

    We are here because of the work and effort of countless people in history. Right now we are sowing the seeds for someone in the future.

    I am not sure about karma, all I know is that our actions today have consequences no matter what. This translates as responsibility.

    How are you painting your life now, and how would you like to paint it? Is Zen Practice helping to make you a better painter?

    I am painting my life as I want and as I never imagined I could. I can't think of anything better than this. To the eyes of a lot of people I am poor, don't own a car, don't have anything at all... but to me I have everything.

    Yes, Zen helps a lot. I can see and understand my past, all I did and everything that happened and come to terms with it all. I can see my present and every single day as the greatest gift ever and I live for that.

    And the dharma is always there.


    Why is it important neither to be "trapped in life's illusions" nor "fall into the blank, pristine canvas, becoming trapped there"? Does our Zen Practice help us learn to jump from one to the other, and to see the interplay of both? Are you getting better at doing so?

    To me, one of the main points of my non-practice and the vows I take every morning is to perceive reality, though reality is boundless. Attachments and aversions are powerful illusions that haunt us every moment. When I simply see life for what it is, even for a little moment, my relationship with things becomes so simple... Yet I have so many attachments and aversions. So yes, I keep jumping on both sides, but slowly turning towards the middle.

    Yes, I think I'm getting better at doing so.

    Wonderful teaching. Thank you, Jundo.

    Gassho,

    Kyoinin
    Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

  29. #29
    Treeleaf Unsui rculver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati Ohio Area (Northern Kentucky)
    Posts
    1,701

    How are you painting your life now, and how would you like to paint it? Is Zen Practice helping to make you a better painter?
    I'm painting my life now the best that I am able. I would like to paint it a little better. Zen practice gives me a little space from which to work.

    I'm enjoying the koans especially the various commentary.

    Ron




    Shugen
    Shugen
    明道 修眼

  30. #30
    Senior Member Ekai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Southeastern Wisconsin
    Posts
    570
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    Jumping in late to the club here. About two years late. Back from the darkness...

    I'm almost forty years old now. For literally twenty years I've been searching for the answer to this question: "What should I be doing with my life?" Sometimes I rephrase this as "What career should I choose?"

    In the past twenty years, I've considered a dizzying array of career options as diverse as chef and computer programmer, musician and stockbroker, novelist and data analyst, and on and on. I have driven myself into depths of self-hatred, heights of misplaced anger, wastelands of self-isolation, etc. When, after about ten years of this, I was finally able to let someone (now my wife) close enough to observe this madness, I drove her crazy, too, though her countervailing love and support over the last decade has helped dredge my silted soul from the muck of all of this idiocy.

    Only in the last month or two have I finally begun to realize these simple facts:

    1. I am not what I do for a living
    2. The career I have is just fine, thank you
    3. I will not find "happiness" outside myself, no matter what career I have
    4. My life is incredibly good. I have far more joy than sadness, far more love than hate. What sadness I do have is 95% self-generated. What hate I do experience is 100% self-hate.

    In other words (and to tie it into this week's discussion), I've been painting a picture of suffering for twenty years, actively and deliberately painting it, then actively and deliberately hiding my brushes behind my own back so as to make it easier to believe that my painting is my reality, is the only reality, is, what's more, an objective and immutable reality.

    For almost as long as I have been studying Zen, I had been one of those who have sought the blank canvas, even as I covered it. Now, with my muck-covered face, I realize that the canvas is never blank, never has been, and never will be. At the same time, without the canvas, the paint would be drops falling through the air, not forms on the canvas. And here's where words fall short, because the canvas is also perfectly blank, the paint also perfectly formed in midair. It all exists separately and together.

    It's a bit like writing a too-long post, then looking up and blinking to realize there is a whole universe outside the grey lines on the glowing white screen, but that the universe contains those lines and that screen, wouldn't be what it is without them.

    It's hard to keep them both in mind, separate. But, we don't have to. We don't have to keep them in mind at all, for they are mind. If you're at the bottom of the pool with a glass in your hand, are you holding a glass of water or simply holding a glass? Do you really have to find an answer to that question?

    Gassho,
    Kevin
    aka. Joko
    Thanks for your post. It does ring so true!

    Gassho,
    Ekai

  31. #31
    Senior Member Ekai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Southeastern Wisconsin
    Posts
    570
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaishin View Post
    Been turning this one over and over. Still don't know. But to answer your questions:

    How are you painting your life now, and how would you like to paint it? Is Zen Practice helping to make you a better painter?

    - Been painting my life with eight brushes at once. Quite a mess. Zen practice over the past few years has helped me to remove some of them. So now I'm painting with maybe three or four.

    _/\_

    5259796286_3595181f1d_n.jpg
    I can relate to that!

    Gassho,
    Ekai

  32. #32
    Member Thane's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Newtonhill, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
    Posts
    48
    Hi Kevin

    Thanks for your very honest post.

    Gassho

    Thane

  33. #33
    Thank you Jundo for this excellent teaching. It's difficult to digest because this some really deep stuff; it's like explaining "Form is emptiness. Emptiness is Form." I really like your analogy of the painter and the painting. This life cannot be pidgeon-holed into simple boxes, yet we need to pursue a path of understanding. I have to say I really like this koan work. It has lit a fire under my ass. lol

    Belief systems are complicated things. We fight wars over them, every one has them and every one lives their lives out of them to a certain extent, whether they realize it or not. I personally have a theory that whether or not we realize it, we strongly adhere to the belief systems that were introduced to us in our formative years. We may wear the robes of another religion, but our myths are deeply embedded in us. [I believe Jung referred to these as archetypes, but I'm not a Jungian expert by any means.] In any case, these are the cultural myths that are ingrained in us when we are children in addition to things we learn from our parents. I guess these are the habits we have and why they "die hard".

    I think we'll really know our beliefs when we are on our death beds. Hopefully, we learn them before then, but I certainly believe death is where the "rubber meets the road". I love your point about lip service, and Taigu's previous point about these teachings, sutras, the Shobogenzo being our lives. We can fool ourselves, dress up in the zen clothing, do the rituals and talk the talk; it may make us be perceived as 'enlightened' or 'spiritual', but it's non-sense. The ultimate litmus test is how we live our lives; I know I'm paraphrasing what you have written previously there, but I believe that to be true.

    I didn't take this practice up to add another head atop my own (as Daido Roshi would say) or to add new mythologies to my existing storyline. I have enough myths to live with. I grew up in a Judeo-Christian culture, and while I'm not particularly religious, I am a Christian. I just believe in it... now I'm not a fundamentalist by any means. I'm a man of reason, but I still cling to my myths. It's part of who I am, and I think that is due to my upbringing.

    So while I cannot logically defend my faith, I do live my life in a way with a filter based on that faith. And not just those beliefs, the filter includes all of the cultural trappings.

    Arguing for or against such beliefs is ludicrous. Whether we're arguing about heaven, hell, rebirth, etc, we may as well argue about unicorns and leprichauns. It's fun to speculate, but that is as far as it goes. When we actually start investing in these speculations to the point where we separate ourselves into groups and judge other people, that's where we do tremendous damage. "You are gay, you don't believe in 'my god', you aren't going to heaven, you are not a true human." That is ludicrous! And precepts, or not, that type of exclusive belief system pisses me off.

    So I wouldn't argue against someone having a belief in rebirth, I just don't believe in it. I wouldn't really try to convince others either. And that's where we make mistakes. You see, you can believe in what you want, but if you try to sell me on your bullshit, I'm going to tell you where I stand (respectfully). Because even though we believe in certain things, doesn't make them so, no matter what "The Secret" or other bullshit self-help propaganda tells us.

    At the same time, that belief informs certain parts of our lives whether we realize it or not.

    Zen is not a religion to me. It is a down to earth practice that actually helps me realize that I have these beliefs and allows me not to buy into them so much where I can't see the forest for the trees. Zen is not anti-science... it's not anti-anything. For lack of a better term, it's like a framework that helps us see who we are and recognize what we think without having any negative judgements.

    It's like before you know how to read as a child, once you learn how to read, you can never go back. Zen practice is like that in some respects.

    It's natural for human beings to invent religion to explain life. It's what we do; we have this drive to know things, to explain our world. But we need to recognize those things for what they are. When we wrap institutions around things that are not provable, it gets weird. It gets weird when people latch onto beliefs without questioning them; it's as if one is so desperate for answers, they'll just take the first explanation they are given so they can avoid responsibility for searching for answers. But I think it always comes back. We want answers. We should question, even with full knowledge that things won't be answered. We deserve it for ourselves, in this life, not to just accept what we are spoonfed.. whether it be myths about the afterlife or even everyday things like you need to buy this or wear that to be accepted by society..Bullshit!

    That's why I'm driven to Treeleaf. Jundo and Taigu and the sangha here don't put up with the bullshit. lol That's what Zen is.. recognize our bullshit for what it is. It will drop away naturally. Or maybe it won't. Sometimes beliefs are deeply ingrained, but it shows me how to live with the beliefs without forcing them on others. Maybe that is a way of saving sentient beings.

    In this koan, I feel there's a similar thing going on here. We cling to form, or we cling to emptiness. Which is it? My mind needs to know... but it's not just one or the other. We have to act in this world, even if it is illusory in the sense that things are not permanently fixed and independent. We are individuals even though we are all linked together and affect each other.

    Buddhism can seem like it is nihilism, but that's only if you understand part of the teaching. We have to go beyond emptiness to realize that that's where the beauty is. To quote from the Nishijima/Cross translation of Genjokoan (in book 1 of the Shobogenzo):

    [83] When all dharmas are [seen as] the Buddha-Dharma, then there is delusion
    and realization, there is practice, there is life and there is death, there
    are buddhas and there are ordinary beings. When the myriad dharmas are
    each not of the self, there is no delusion and no realization, no buddhas and
    no ordinary beings, no life and no death. The Buddha’s truth is originally
    transcendent over abundance and scarcity, and so there is life and death, there
    is delusion and realization, there are beings and buddhas
    This practice is continual work because life is dynamic and changing. If we sit on the cushion like dead logs, we are not doing real Shikantaza. We must continually examine our practice; fortunately we have a Sangha to keep us true to the spirit of that path.

    We also have to express ourselves as individuals after we've learned things. It's not good enough to say "Gassho" all the time or give lip service to these teachings. It is up to us to test the teachings and practice until we know for ourselves if this is legitimate. Practice is very active.

    This is how I paint my life now; I try to recognize the bs for bs, and learn about my belief systems. The practice gives me this awareness and allows me to not cling so tightly to things I assume are so obvious.

    I have a long way to go; I'm just a beginner trying to feel my way along with the help of this excellent Sangha.

    Gassho,

    Risho

  34. #34
    Thanks Risho; so much to chew on! When you boil Zen down to it's essence, I think it is nothing more than facing yourself & the world head on & seeing clearly how much of our own bs we bring to the experience.

    Life is life, & will carry on doing what it does regardless of what we believe about it.

    _/\_

    Ade

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Risho View Post
    I personally have a theory that whether or not we realize it, we strongly adhere to the belief systems that were introduced to us in our formative years. We may wear the robes of another religion, but our myths are deeply embedded in us.
    I agree. And yet...

    Quote Originally Posted by Risho View Post
    we do in the end have the ability to choose how we react
    And, as you say, Zen is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Risho View Post
    a down to earth practice that actually helps me realize that I have these beliefs and allows me not to buy into them so much where I can't see the forest for the trees
    Once we have seen these beliefs for what they are, we can consciously choose to do whatever we wish. We can believe in them wholeheartedly, reject them entirely, or find some middle ground. We can choose to go to war over them, if we like. But, I feel for those who kill (or any other drastic action) for unexamined beliefs. They walk a path on which it is difficult to change course, and they may one day awaken to decide they do not want to be on that path, never intended to be on it. Then, they suffer even more.

    I, too, grew up in the Judeo-Christian tradition. I was raised Roman Catholic, though in a family that followed those beliefs in an unexamined way (as far as I recall). I fell away from that church in my teen years. But, that belief system acts as a counterpoint for me. It is a spiritual rough draft, if you like, that I am constantly revising as I learn and grow. I believe in God, but I no longer believe in a God that the average unexamined Roman Catholic (or Mormon, for that matter, which is another belief system I lived in for a time) would necessarily recognize. But, you're right. My conception of God is an outgrowth from that starting point I was given as a child.

    One thing Zen teaches me is that I don't need to cling to any belief at all, and that my not-clinging doesn't make the belief untrue, just as my clinging doesn't make it true. And it teaches me that two seemingly mutually exclusive beliefs can co-exist in truth, can even be dependent upon one another (you can't fill air with water, but is it the glass that you fill or the air contained within it?). This understanding has led to a lot of indecision in my life , and I'm starting to understand that, too. But, you can't change if you're not willing to question, and you can't question if you're not willing to doubt, and so many forces nowadays are trying desperately to eliminate all doubt by encouraging us not to think deeply about anything at all.

    Thank you for your thoughtful post.

    Gassho,
    Kevin
    aka. Joko

  36. #36
    There is something else in this koan. We paint our painter... we paint a good painter, and in that relative peace of goodness... we can better realize the always unborn canvas.. But there is also the hand the painter has been dealt. Sometimes in Buddhism there can be a kind of “If I can do it, you can do it” attitude... yet it isn't so simple. Yes conditions are conditions and practice is practice, regardless. But we each approach practice from different backgrounds and experiences, social, economic, familial, neurological, emotional, that can be just as much an advantage or disadvantage to practice as it is to engaging in any other discipline. Even though we all have beginningless karma... some have heavier karma than others. For example, someone traumatized in childhood may have a tougher time seeing through certain perceptions and emotional reactions than someone raised in a peaceful stable home.
    In a way.. maybe those with tougher, karma... a tougher , deeper, headwind, can realize a practice of proportional depth and sturdiness. Zazen is nothing gained, yet at the same time that “nothing gained” is all the more wonderful for being hard-won.

    Gassho
    Last edited by Daizan; 07-13-2012 at 02:40 AM.
    大山

  37. #37
    The data base of my choices is my practice. Hopefully my choice of actions improve as my practice matures. Are the results of my actions good or bad? In any case I assume complete responsibility for all of them. Gassho, Shogen

  38. #38
    Senior Member AlanLa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    East Texas
    Posts
    1,247
    I really needed the explanation on this one. Thank you for that, Jundo. Here are my sort of random thoughts on it:

    In the absolute there is no karma, but karma does exist in the relative life we lead on a day to day basis. It's the Sandokai box and lid thing again.

    You can be a victim of life (karma) or you can be an active agent and create good karma in your life; the choice is yours. But recognize that it's not that simple.

    Karma/no karma, free will/no free will, victim/active agent - just more examples of duality that are not all that helpful because they are so restrictive. I find viewing such concepts as continuums as much more useful.

    If I am reborn as a wild fox, then I will just BE a wild fox. I believe very strongly in the old adage that you play the hand you are dealt in life. The dealer is not very important, nor is how they shuffled the cards before dealing them to you. What is important is how you play your hand in life. My zen practice has helped me play my hand much better.

    The timing on this koan is interesting. I have been having some difficulties with a student recently and trying to come to a better understanding of what role I played in that difficulty in relation to the role played by the student in that difficulty has been a struggle. I wrote in my journal about it that I need to just accept the fact that I am creating karma here, that I am not free of it at all. Obvious, yes, but seeing it in the day-to-dayness of life is enlightening, much more so than thinking about it conceptually. As Jundo said, reading about driving a car will not prepare you very well for the actual experience of driving a car. Living my karma as influenced by others karma, and doing so mindfully, now that's some serious driving practice.
    AL (Jigen) in:
    Faith/Trust
    Courage/Love
    Awareness/Action!

  39. #39
    Hello all,

    I have a friend who is an artist by profession. One of his techniques is to paint a canvas….paint over it….(sometimes many layers) and then scrape off parts of the layers. It seems to me this is analogous to karma…..we have layers of karma on our canvas and some of it is very difficult to live with….some of it might disgust us….we don’t want to pass this on to our children. Yet there are parts that are OK….perhaps even "good" and we wish to keep these parts.

    Guided by the precepts, we scrape and work diligently to better our canvas. I’ve been dealing with much family karma lately and it can be exhausting work. It helps to realize the blank canvas underneath all those layers. I’ve found it difficult, as of late, to “feel” or “realize” (perhaps not the best words) this blank canvas…..my zazen is more “scattered” than usual. Yet I need to just let some of this just "be." Like in the movie “Six Degrees of Separation” a second grade teacher explains how her children’s’ paintings are so brilliant because she knows when to take them away from her students. At times we need to just stop or we end up like Shohei mentioned above just "chasing our tail."



    Gassho,
    Jisen/BrianW
    Last edited by BrianW; 07-15-2012 at 07:01 PM.

  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Questions ...

    How are you painting your life now, and how would you like to paint it? Is Zen Practice helping to make you a better painter?
    I'm trying to paint my life one brush stroke at a time. That's what really happens at each moment anyway whether we notice it or not. Does it still leave a karma trail? Yes it does with every single action. I have my share of bad karma luggage but what zen practice is teaching me is how to leave a karma trail that is less destructive to self and everyone around me.
    Gassho,
    Andy

  41. #41
    Senior Member Ekai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Southeastern Wisconsin
    Posts
    570
    I try to do best to not harm anyone with my thoughts, actions and speech. Sometimes I do well and sometimes I make mistakes, mainly with my husband. It's funny how it can be harder to treat the ones closest to us with patience and kindness than our fellow colleague or neighbor. Maybe we take our loved ones for granted and let our guards down too much. Anyway, I believe that how we relate and respond to a person or situation makes an impact in the world so I try to act with kindness to create a positive ripples. Every bit of loving kindness makes a difference no matter how small or big it is. And every bit of malice and unkindness creates a negative effect no matter how small or big it is. Living this way by treating people with kindness creates peace within myself and I hope that peace extends out toward others. At least I do my best and just let the chips fall where they may.

    Gassho,
    Ekai

  42. #42
    Ekai,

    I feel exactly the same on your point how it is easier to treat the ones not as close to you with enough kindness. I feel releived that somebody else is also doing this. I feel as though i do not show compassion towards my wife when i should and find it easier to show more compassion towards others around me and people i don,t know and it gets pointed out to me very often that i am kind to everybody except her and u can guess who brings this to my attention. I think part of it is how we don't see their actions and things they have said in the past like water birds we see all the trails they have left behind and instead we go by past experiences of their reactions to situations and we let that determine our behaviour towards them.

    To answer jundo,s question i would describe my painting as a work of beautiful art and then i have to go and shit on it. I only realise i have ruined the painting once it is too late and my words cannot be taken back.

    Gassho



    Quote Originally Posted by Ekai View Post
    I try to do best to not harm anyone with my thoughts, actions and speech. Sometimes I do well and sometimes I make mistakes, mainly with my husband. It's funny how it can be harder to treat the ones closest to us with patience and kindness than our fellow colleague or neighbor. Maybe we take our loved ones for granted and let our guards down too much. Anyway, I believe that how we relate and respond to a person or situation makes an impact in the world so I try to act with kindness to create a positive ripples. Every bit of loving kindness makes a difference no matter how small or big it is. And every bit of malice and unkindness creates a negative effect no matter how small or big it is. Living this way by treating people with kindness creates peace within myself and I hope that peace extends out toward others. At least I do my best and just let the chips fall where they may.

    Gassho,
    Ekai
    Last edited by Ray; 07-17-2012 at 09:52 PM.

  43. #43
    Treeleaf Unsui Myozan Kodo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    2,102
    Thank you Jundo and everyone.

    What about this:

    The monk got it wrong.
    Became a fox.
    The monk makes amends.
    Hey presto, he's a monk again.

    Nothing hidden. A straight up story.

    Gassho
    Myozan
    Myozan Kodo
    Ordained Soto Zen Priest in Training
    Dublin, Ireland

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.
    "Here the way unfolds."

  44. #44
    Senior Member Koshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mexico City
    Posts
    1,005
    Not understanding the deepness of this koan yet, but anyway, I think, if you act good, it brings consequences, you act badly, the same... but then, what is good, what is bad?? How can we see all the outcome of all our actions, in the past, present future?? And the interconnection of the actions of all sentient beings make it harder to forsee.... But... then, you now what is good, you know what is bad, you take full responsibility of your actions, the outcomes, and try to do your best (or better yet, not try, just do), until the day you die...I don't know :P

    Gassho
    ______________________________
    Kōshin / Leo



    P.S. Yup, I know, my English sucks

  45. #45
    In fact, I too have some difficulties to understand this koan, maybe because I want to paint all that understand to fix it with my mind. I have to let the time to understand it more than previously. But I feel something like we are in the middle of illusion, and that's why and how we have the possibilty to be awakened. That's why samsara and nirvana are one. If I'm not wrong the vision of Dogen is not linear but more than something popping up then vanishes, another think after, and between there's this emptiness, and because of this blank, or emptiness betwee two "popping up" that we can find practice-realisation:this gap between 2 things popping up.
    my english is not so relevant to make this more clear, maybe someone will understand my frenglish and thank you Jundo your explanations on the zazenkai is more clear than the koan ;-)

    Gassho everybody

Similar Threads

  1. BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 7
    By Jundo in forum "BEYOND WORDS & LETTERS" BOOK CLUB
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 07-10-2012, 01:43 PM
  2. BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 6
    By Jundo in forum "BEYOND WORDS & LETTERS" BOOK CLUB
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 07-04-2012, 10:28 PM
  3. BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 3
    By Taigu in forum "BEYOND WORDS & LETTERS" BOOK CLUB
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 06-15-2012, 02:56 AM
  4. BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 1
    By Jundo in forum "BEYOND WORDS & LETTERS" BOOK CLUB
    Replies: 108
    Last Post: 05-30-2012, 09:16 PM
  5. BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 2
    By Jundo in forum "BEYOND WORDS & LETTERS" BOOK CLUB
    Replies: 79
    Last Post: 05-29-2012, 04:28 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •