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Thread: BOOK OF EQUNINITY, case 7 with subtitles

  1. #1
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    BOOK OF EQUNINITY, case 7 with subtitles

    I often relunctantly open my mouth. You have to say something kind of thing. Kobun roshi used to escape from teaching situations.
    Words of teachers are given to wash words away, brush thoughts, sweep clouds and hide a white crane in the moon.
    Words of teachers are not for necklace making, or just outfits to wear.

    Words not to quote. Words to quit our own small and smelly world!!!

    These are words striking the very body-bell of IT.
    No words is just as good. To remove the posibility to toy away with things is as good
    like Buddha on Vulture peak holding a single flower,
    like the sound of one hand clapping.

    In this Yakusan is second to none, heir of Sekito Kisen, the stone-strong old and fierce lion, he offers an eloquent flesh, blood, bones, marrow to his gaping audience.

    You have to investigate the meaning of he, who is he in he sleeps no more?
    What is the sound of a real sutra?
    What is the real voice of an old monk?

    I am often appalled at this chatty mind of mine, at this chatty forum, cosy forum but sometimes too wordy.
    Can you express in a few words the virtue of waking up to this?

    How many times we loose this wonderful opportunity to shut up? How many times we could just offer a voiceless presence, eloquent voice of being?

    Enough said!

    gassho



    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    How many times we loose this wonderful opportunity to shut up? How many times we could just offer a voiceless presence, eloquent voice of being?
    Wonderful, thank you Taigu.

    Gassho,
    Michael

  3. #3
    Senior Member Heisoku's Avatar
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    _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
    Heisoku
    平 息

  4. #4
    Senior Member Koshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post

    How many times we loose this wonderful opportunity to shut up? How many times we could just offer a voiceless presence, eloquent voice of being?

    Taigu

    ______________________________
    Kōshin / Leo



    P.S. Yup, I know, my English sucks

  5. #5
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
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    My comment lies on the sound of the wind.

    Thank you.
    Shuso and Ango leader for September 2014.

    Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

  6. #6
    Stale, hard bread
    melts in the mouth of the quiet monk.

  7. #7
    Hello,

    thank you for the words that managed to escape.

    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen
    Chudo Mongen, Ordained Novice Priest-in-Training

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    I am often appalled at this chatty mind of mine, at this chatty forum, cosy forum but sometimes too wordy.
    Can you express in a few words the virtue of waking up to this?

    Taigu
    Walking away.

  9. #9
    When you can't naturally feel upbeat, it can sometimes help to act as if you did.
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

  10. #10
    ....then saying something.

    Hi Taigu.... Please forgive but here is more than few words. Chattiness is no problem in offline Sangha... being a quiet presence is straighfoward...and a relief. Here it is not the same... Presumably the ordained students have a forum not visible here where a serious course of study, and close teacher student contact is the way (maybe that's not true.. but it's a reasonable guess). Here on the general board... there is the text/talk board.... there is talk. There are also lots of recorded teaching to see. However the heart and soul of shutting up and being present together is this budding Google+ experience. I hope we can spend a lot more time doing that as a Sangha. In the meantime, this particular talking mule does his best.

    Gassho, kojip.

  11. #11
    I don't think it's words that is a problem. Just like when beginning Buddhists think it's against Buddhism to think. That's ridiculous. We are rational beings, and that is part of what is so excellent about being human. It's being attached to words and not getting the meaning. We could all become mute and smile at flowers when a teacher points at it, but we'd fall into the same problem of mimicry and parroting. Words are very important; they convey meaning, but again I think we need to understand the meaning and not be so attached to the pointer, finger, etc. Without words, we couldn't understand "without words" just like without pause we couldn't have music.

    Gassho,

    Risho

  12. #12
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Good guess Kojip.
    Risho, I appreciate your words and would like to remind you that my career as a literature and philosophy teacher in the French university, my passion for poetry, my relentless love for the shobogenzo, the work of a man, Dogen, that loved words so much...all these little things don t make me an enemy of the spoken world. What I am pointing out is fairly simple, what matters is where our words arise from. But you can call me stupid, I don t care, you know I care less and less about all those things. I just wish people would take the time to chew and digest things, to sit on them and with them rather than rush up arms with their beleif system as a flamboyant flag.

    Anyway, I am sure you understand.

    Gassho


    Taigu
    Last edited by Taigu; 07-06-2012 at 12:48 AM.
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  13. #13
    Oh damn I didn't mean it like that and I in no way think you are stupid.

    Gassho

    Risho

  14. #14
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    It is OK...Almost joking. Don't worry, Risho. I am sure it is not your intention.
    I agree with you when it comes to the attachment to words rather than their meaning although...For me, form and essence are one. Whe you pick up the Shobogenzo it is a collection of chapters, it is a file in my ipad. a book in my hands, it is the Buddha's teachings, it is Dogen's thoughts, Dogen's body, my very body-mind...All this together. But what I know for sure it doesn 't sound hollow and vane like some conversations here and there.

    Take great care

    gassho


    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  15. #15
    Friends of Treeleaf Dokan's Avatar
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    Meeting with my teacher,
    Craving, thirsting, aching,
    Gazing fervently at his finger, my eyes water,
    In tearing, I can see the reflection of the moon.

    Dokan
    We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.
    ~Anas Nin

  16. #16
    Very nice, Dokan, Thank you!

    _/\_

    Ade

  17. #17
    _/\_ .
    Gassho,
    Kaishin

  18. #18

  19. #19
    Senior Member Ekai's Avatar
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    Not much more to add here, just thank you.

    Gassho,
    Ekai

  20. #20
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Thank you Jundo, Taigu and all!

    For the opportunity to enter this space, no-space.

    New-be here .

    This koan seems to speak to the phrase, if you have to ask.... ie, toys; or ad anything, you are missing the point already. That point seems to be that if you seemingly need to be preached to too get It, you are not vested personally enough at the deepest level of your being to get It yourself. If we feel the need to hear it or be shown the path of the Way (Ox-herding), we have a hell of a Mt to climb (hello galen . Esp us here in the `west, we always want the quick easy way, not paying the price, but would rather it be handed to us, just to keep our unknowing shallowness in continuance. Breathing into 'boundless expanse'.

    That was scary as hell, but I finally posted, or I didn't !?




    galen
    Last edited by galen; 07-10-2012 at 05:29 PM.

  21. #21
    Everyday i feel that there are too many situations where i have said too much. By the time i have become aware of this, it is too late. I aspire to always remember to ask myself before opening my mouth is if what i am about to say is "true" "necessary" " helpful" "kind" and "appropriate for the situation" if the thing i am going to say does not hit all the above i feel there is no point in saying what i am going to say. However, every day i fail and need to make the effort the next day to live with others in this manner. Maybe it is too high a target but i feel it is good practice!

    Gassho





    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    I often relunctantly open my mouth. You have to say something kind of thing. Kobun roshi used to escape from teaching situations.
    Words of teachers are given to wash words away, brush thoughts, sweep clouds and hide a white crane in the moon.
    Words of teachers are not for necklace making, or just outfits to wear.

    Words not to quote. Words to quit our own small and smelly world!!!

    These are words striking the very body-bell of IT.
    No words is just as good. To remove the posibility to toy away with things is as good
    like Buddha on Vulture peak holding a single flower,
    like the sound of one hand clapping.

    In this Yakusan is second to none, heir of Sekito Kisen, the stone-strong old and fierce lion, he offers an eloquent flesh, blood, bones, marrow to his gaping audience.

    You have to investigate the meaning of he, who is he in he sleeps no more?
    What is the sound of a real sutra?
    What is the real voice of an old monk?

    I am often appalled at this chatty mind of mine, at this chatty forum, cosy forum but sometimes too wordy.
    Can you express in a few words the virtue of waking up to this?

    How many times we loose this wonderful opportunity to shut up? How many times we could just offer a voiceless presence, eloquent voice of being?

    Enough said!

    gassho



    Taigu

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    Everyday i feel that there are too many situations where i have said too much. By the time i have become aware of this, it is too late. I aspire to always remember to ask myself before opening my mouth is if what i am about to say is "true" "necessary" " helpful" "kind" and "appropriate for the situation" if the thing i am going to say does not hit all the above i feel there is no point in saying what i am going to say. However, every day i fail and need to make the effort the next day to live with others in this manner. Maybe it is too high a target but i feel it is good practice!

    Gassho
    .... Can relate completely. And here there are words words words... discomfort discomfort discomfort. ....even this.

  23. #23
    Hi Taigu. This may be taking this thread and running off in a different direction with your talk... but it is like a seed in my teeth. I love Treeleaf, but this board component.. this chat component, is an old familiar online story for me, that brings an old familiar feeling. To participate is to talk.. The question you ask is how to be a quiet presence, and the answer (at least to the board I see) is to log off, and stay logged off. Logging on only for practical reasons, or saying "will be there/here" for zazenkai. Because there is no other formal reason to log on... there is only saying for saying's sake, to try and connect with Sangha.. and it is not working. It is alienating. So in order to not be alienated, and to preserve this Treeleaf practice support.. I have to stop posting, and just show up for practice, otherwise it will sour as internet boards do.

    Thank you for this kick in the head thread, and your teaching. gassho kojip

  24. #24
    Beautiful teaching and I should shut up right there but here I go ruining silence with this

    My boy is 3. His mom went on a trip for a week away and he never let on it bugged him much.
    He asked a few time to here whereabouts and I was straight forward and said she went on a plane and would be back in one week.

    Since then, more so as of late, he would lose sight of her for a moment and have a crying fit yelling for her, etc. She would always respond(though tonight she said she too was at her wits end with this bit)

    He started the same thing with me and let me tell ya its hard to get anything done that needs doing or have 2 moments to yourself when he was doing this.

    So I tried every thing I could to get him to see there was nothing wrong. We reassured him we were right here, kind encouraging words, getting him to share what was wrong, sending him to have his fit away from us.

    Truth of the matter, like the monks, he wanted a toy, a reaction, attention(good or bad he wanted it) and thinking we were kind we gave it to him.

    Like practice, the only way for him to get this one was on his own, the attention (mental toy) just fed the negative behavior!

    So I waited tonight, before bed, while we all read stories and he and his sister were engrossed in their stories and picked up the koan book and walked out on to the front deck and sat down by the door reading... and waiting.
    1 min. passed and I heard him start calling, immediately crying... Im not that cold or cruel really! I wanted to up and go in and say I am here Im right here its okay (but I had done this 100 times to no avail so...) but instead I sat reading... he came to the door, big tears streaming and looked at me.

    I did not blink but turned the page and with that he returned to his book pile and never looked back.

    shortly after i came inside and said Hi and sat and read with them and did it again... seriously...no reaction!!

    In my drive to help him, so make things right, I do a disservice, this lesson my son needed no more words, he need to realize for him self and I needed to get out of the way. Any thing else was extra and just added fuel to the fire.

    Sorry for the wordiness.

    Gassho
    Shohei

  25. #25
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    It seems, to be a part of a website, Zen or not, you would have to do some enter acting among the community, isn't that what it is about (life)?

    If a person was in person, or where they could get to a zendo/meeting place, it would be easier to be amongst without so much wordage/verbage.

    I liked the take of Risho, its not so much words, but the clinging and attachment, that is the problem. Seemingly, to get past concepts, one must go through concepts to get There, and would that not also pertain to words. Both being valuable tools, left as such.......... many lessons here for my`self!



    galen
    Last edited by galen; 07-10-2012 at 01:18 AM.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Kojip View Post
    Logging on only for practical reasons, or saying "will be there/here" for zazenkai. Because there is no other formal reason to log on... there is only saying for saying's sake, to try and connect with Sangha.. and it is not working. It is alienating. So in order to not be alienated, and to preserve this Treeleaf practice support.. I have to stop posting, and just show up for practice, otherwise it will sour as internet boards do.

    Thank you for this kick in the head thread, and your teaching. gassho kojip
    Hi Kojip,

    If I may drop in on this ... everything in moderation, and nothing "sours" about a place to meet unless the mind starts to sour. One does not have to respond to every post, one does not have too talk too much. As well, one can respond sometimes, talk when a good time to talk. I wrote on the sister thread to this one today ...

    A time to talk and explain, a time to be silent.

    A time when silence speaks with a Buddha's tongue, a time when silence is just being tongue tied.



    Important to know which is which.
    I wouldn't run to extremes. Even Gautama Buddha and his Buddies knew when the time was right to go into the grass hut and close the door, and when to come out and socialize. Each in its time.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-10-2012 at 11:27 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  27. #27
    Senior Member Nenka's Avatar
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    Thank you for this post, Taigu.

    Jen

    P.S. Galen:
    New-be here .
    I've seen it spelled a lot of ways before, but never "new-be." That's fabulous! We're all new-be.
    The result is not the point; it is the effort to improve ourselves that is valuable. There is no end to this practice. --Shunryu Suzuki

  28. #28
    Member Thane's Avatar
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    Taigu

    Just be

    Gassho Thane

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi Kojip,

    If I may drop in on this ... everything in moderation, and nothing "sours" about a place to meet unless the mind starts to sour. One does not have to respond to every post, one does not have too talk too much. As well, one can respond sometimes, talk when a good time to talk. I wrote on the sister thread to this one today ...



    I wouldn't run to extremes. Even Gautama Buddha and his Buddies knew when the time was right to go into the grass hut and close the door, and when to come out and socialize. Each in its time.

    Gassho, J
    Thank you, Jundo. I realize it is only this mind that can sour... with its own earnest views and values, its own tiresome theater.

    Gassho kojip.

  30. #30
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    From my limited perspective..... it seems, whether Buddha, a high priest or master take the high seat having nothing to say, its not about words in and of themselves, but its more about symbolism to the assembled, to not sit around waiting to be told and get it explained conceptually. That only furthers the clinging to every word and concept.... ie, ego, and misses the point of feeling (intuiting) words and taking them on physically, not mentally. It seems to teach the assembled (us), sitting and waiting in neediness and clinging to every word misses the point and keeps you stuck (ego). Practice, practice is the only Way, and words can be a hindrance, if we cling to every Masters words, not feeling every word to that deepest part of ourselves... unconsciously and intuitively. In the intro to this book, Wick points out while reading the koans, feel them as apposed to totally comprehending them conceptually. Feel Them!

    After all, I think it was the Rinzai sect or maybe Soto school of thought, that when a monk had reached a certain height of mastery, he would go from community to community, in what they called Dharma Dueling (I really get a kick out of that phrase!). That was part of the ‘trip’ to liberation, and of course, they were very verbal. When Plato tells of Socrates going from one palace after another, he would have conceptual battles of philosophy, vs what could be considered moral. These intellectualizing/conceptualizing verbal bantering were not won totally by the mind, the one who could most intuit the deeper meaning won the so-called battle. Where would we be without words, written or spoken, of some of the great texts ever written by masters such Dogen?

    So in closing, I do not apologize for the length, the whirling spinning messy phrasing , miss spells and such of this post, it goes with My territory.
    Last edited by galen; 07-15-2012 at 06:41 PM.

  31. #31
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    And fabulous back to you, Nenka! You might also be considered an older new-be, after two years . I tried to answer Nenka's post with quote, missed that one.

  32. #32
    Friend of Treeleaf Myozan Kodo's Avatar
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    Zazen

    Gassho
    Myozan
    Myozan Kodo
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    Dublin, Ireland

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.
    "Here the way unfolds."

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