Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 67

Thread: Ordination Tribulation

  1. #1

    Ordination Tribulation

    Dear All,

    It is hard to be ground-breaking, because not everyone appreciates the new ground.

    I am a member of an organization called the Soto Zen Buddhist Association of North America.

    http://szba.org/

    The SZBA is primarily a social organization, a place for interchange among many of the Soto Zen Lineages and Priests in America. Its activity is limited largely to the United States. The SZBA is primarily a social organization, with no official authority of any kind to approve who is and is not a Zen priest (that is left to the discretion of each Lineage and individual Teacher to ordain and train their own priests as they determine best). The SZBA is not a regulatory or licensing body, although they have been working very hard in recent years to develop various standards for priest training and ethical standards in America (work I -very- much support). The SZBA does have the power to approve who will be its own members, of course, but many Soto Zen priests in North America do not even bother to join for their own personal reasons.

    The SZBA board of directors is an --unelected-- body dominated for years by larger and relatively conservative, monastic Lineages such as those arising from San Francisco Zen Center, who, by size, substantially control the board of directors and most of the policy decisions made there. While generally very very nice people, and all certainly well meaning, it is also true that many of those folks are not too happy with our "upstart" Treeleaf Sangha as a primarily "online" Zen community developing new media, nor our recent Priest Ordination ceremonies intentionally conducted by use of electronic media to symbolize the nature of this Sangha.

    viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4992

    The SZBA board is not elected by the general membership, is substantially appointed by the large Lineages, and I never have been offered a chance to cast a single vote for the board's members.

    Given the stance of the board, I was a bit surprised to be asked to serve last year as one member of a committee within the SZBA that was requested to survey "Non-traditional methods of Zen Training" and, specifically, the role of Electronic Media in Zen Training. That committee, after several months of work, recommended in its final report that such ceremonies be allowed and that (quote) " individual teachers be given the freedom to pursue the use of EM (Electronic Media) for enhanced teaching as they see fit including jukai and ordination ceremonies", finding that a significant minority (25%) "do endorse EM use for jukai or priest ordination as being in line with Soto practices" and concluding that "Dharma successors of SZBA members who received jukai or tokudo using EM would be welcomed to join SZBA with the same encouragement and evaluation as other candidates who received tokudo or jukai by traditional methods."

    Thus, it was then a bit of a surprise that the board of the SZBA, for its own reasons, choose to overlook both the recommendation of its own committee and of a substantial minority of its own members. The board passed a resolution a few days ago, largely in response to our Shukke Tokudo priest ordinations here at Treeleaf, rejecting those findings, protective of the interests of the rather conservative and large Lineages, and stating ...

    Based on the belief that it is necessary and reasonable to require that the primary relationship between teacher and trainee contain significant physical face-to-face meetings, which is the basis for evaluating a student’s readiness for ordination and eventually membership in the SZBA, the Board believes that the Tokudo ordination itself be performed face-to-face, in the same physical room. This format will be the basis for membership in the SZBA.

    Given the serious nature of priest ordination, the dedication and commitment that should be required of the priest trainee, and our tradition's emphasis on face-to-face transmission of the Dharma, we conclude that tokudo ceremonies are most appropriately conducted in person except under rare and extenuating circumstances, such as a deathbed ordination. Exceptions should be made in consultation with the SZBA Board. By extension, transmission ceremonies should likewise be conducted in person.
    In response, I wrote to the SZBA that:

    Thank you for your hard work and conclusions, although not the same conclusions as those reached by the Non-Traditional Methods Committee itself.

    In any event ... our Sangha will be proceeding with our second Shukke Tokudo ceremony for Ordainees in New York, Austin, Texas and Dublin, Ireland and held from Japan [and in Europe], a face-to-face meeting of each and all with each other and with all the Buddhas and Ancestors, dropping all thought of place and time and distance. We anticipate more such ceremonies in the coming years.

    The approval and sanction of the SZBA is not sought or required for our priests, who will each stand on their own merit as priests and prospective Teachers of the Way.

    Gassho, Jundo Cohen for Treeleaf Sangha
    The SZBA board's decision does not make our novice priests here at Treeleaf less priests, but simply says that anyone who participated in a ceremony using a camera ... instead of standing together in a single room ... cannot join the SZBA. We can live without it.

    The SZBA is right to be concerned about the standards and quality of Soto Zen Buddhist Priests in the future. However, the board's decision never gave us a chance to prove the kinds and quality of the priests we can train and produce in the years to come, and just cut us off at the start. We have folks who have the potential, after some years, to be caring, devoted, ethical, gifted priests who they refuse to look at after training (not before) to see who they will have become. They just cut it off at the root.

    I also have written them to say ...

    I, like all members of the SZBA, agree that training and standards are vital, for we cannot risk to let loose on the world clergy and teachers who are ill equipped, ill informed and ill suited for their roles. The core objective of any method of Ordination and Training is, purely and simply, the nurturing of caring, devoted, ethical, gifted, Wise and Compassionate … dare such be said, Realized-&-Realizing … Soto Zen Buddhist Clergy dedicated to saving all sentient beings, good spiritual friends and teachers of the Sangha, knowledgable in our History and Traditions (both our Traditions as traditionally practiced and our Traditions as re-expressed and evolving for new times and settings).

    The question, though, is whether there is only one, orthodox Pathless Path to this Goalless Goal, or many paths. In my view, it is not a matter of whether one is a graduate of the Zen equivalent of Harvard, working folks’ night school, home schooling or the “school of hard knocks”. In fact, there have been many varied doorways to Priesthood, Training and Transmission which have been recognized and cherished through the millenia in Buddhism, no less in Zen and Soto Zen Buddhism. Not all priests … nor even all Great Zen Ancestors, male and female … entered and walked through the doorways you describe. The question is not the way to arrive there, but the priest nurtured and created … and our Treeleaf Sangha will serve as a haven for the good ones, gifted ones, the rebels and reformers, poetic dreamers and mold breakers,the special outsiders of the Soto Way, wondrous and sincere, ethical, caring Teachers wherever they are found even if not fitting someone’s image of “orthodoxy”. Our “monastery” is in the mountains, in the cities, on the streets, in the nursery and household kitchen, in the offices and factories, in buses and cars, in the cancer ward and hospice, in this world and in all others. All are Sacred, all are sites of dedicated training and effort when tasted as suchness with a heart sincere and Wayseeking Mind.

    Let me emphasize that we do not believe that our Lineage's way is the exclusive way of Training or Pracitice, the only way to define a “priest” or even the best way for all people. Far from it! There are many paths up and down the mountainless-mountain, many ways of Training and many kinds of “Zen Priest”. We need them all, from Chinese Hermits in the hills of Yulun, to traditional parish priests in Japan tending a graveyard, liberals and conservatives, traditionalists and experimenters all within what is “Soto Zen Buddhism”. All of us have a role to play.

    What matters is not the method or place of Training, but the quality of the priest … the Bodhisattva … whom results. Do no look only at the method or the time clocked in a certain setting, but instead see the beautiful, caring ministers and Teachers who can flower in varies climates and soils and seasons.

    I made a mistake of trying to work within a system (the SZBA) which, while well meaning, also represents several strongly vested interests intent on hammering down the nails that stick out, a tyranny of the majority a bit set on preserving their turf. I don’t want to get involved in politics any more. We are convinced of the Rightness of our ways of Training and nurturing Soto Zen priests, and we plan to continue no matter what the “majority” decides as their personal vision of Orthodoxy.

    Look at the results, the people, the Bodhisattvas, and not simply the means.
    Gassho, Jundo

  2. #2
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Rochester, NY, USA
    Posts
    3,530

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Thank you Jundo.

    Gassho,
    Dosho

  3. #3
    Senior Member Ekai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Southeastern Wisconsin
    Posts
    570

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Thank you for standing up for what you believe in. I agree with everything you say about our Sangha, and I am glad to be a part of it. I feel that we have wonderful priests-in-training with beautiful hearts and I am grateful for their presence. I really don't care what the SZBA thinks about us because there are great things happening here at Treeleaf.

    Gassho,
    Ekai

  4. #4

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    I suppose this response from SZBA isn't all that surprising, but I feel that if they would have actually watched the ordination ceremony, they would feel differently. As I watched and witnessed, I was touched by the closeness of people and felt very much connected with everyone, and even with only being online in the chat-room-box-thing, I still felt "face-to-face" with everyone. Perhaps if they too could witness such an event, they would see things in another way: all the people and their humor, emotions, mentally and physically and virtually connected, all in the same place, all the Bodhisattvas and Buddhas that seem so readily apparent to us, right there.

  5. #5

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Being naive about the all-too-human politics in the Zen scene, and having had a rude awakening to it in the last couple of years.... this is not a surprise. To be honest, at one time I would have agreed (in a kneejerk way) about the limitations of this medium.. but no more. Treeleaf is blazing a trail and represents a dimension of Sangha that will bloom. I took formal Refuge as a lay person in the traditional bricks and mortar way, with a venerable Theravadin teacher in 1990, and took the lay precepts in the traditional bricks and mortar way with a Zen Teacher in 1997. I have been around long enough to discern clearly what constitutes virtue, and look forward to taking the precepts with this Sangha when the next Jukai ceremony roles around, if I may.

    Thank you Jundo and Taigu, and your wonderful priests in training, for being here.



    Gassho, kojip

  6. #6

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    hi there - I can understand why there might be a difference of opinion on this subject - BUT -

    We seem to live more and more in a world that is coded by rules and regulations - and
    although I can understand that there needs to be safeguards - with something like Zen it seems to come down
    to an issue of trust and judgement. I don't believe for one minute that Jundo and Taigue would encourage any
    individual to take ordination without a great deal of thought. Also - we are talking here about novice priests - and
    presumably it is a long process before an individual reaches the next stage?

    I don't really understand the hierachies involved - but I read something on sweeping zen about 100 days of retreat before being considered for ordination.
    A great deal of emphasis seems to be placed on how many hours of intensive Zazen has been clocked up. This seems to be as much an issue than the
    ceremony being conducted online?

    It made me a bit cross - because the whole point is that not everyone can make that sort of commitment time wise - or is any where near a zendo. Does this mean a person can't progress, learn about Buddhist teachings - possibly want to convey these teachings to others in many ways unless they've taken a traditional route?

    But the most problematic area for me is the question of what determines 'enlightenment' ?

    It leads to a lot of contradictions if the foundation of one's faith is based on the proscription that you have to have attended a bricks and mortar Zendo.

    I so agree with Jundo's view - and where would we be without it?

    I do believe that treeleaf is blazing a path - and I do believe that the stuffy conservatives will be proved wrong.

    So thank you Jundo and Taigu - for keeping the real spirit of buddhism alive.

    Gassho

    Willow

  7. #7

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Maybe some day they will change their minds. Meanwhile we just practcie and be present. Especially for the treeleaf novice priests who have made such a huge commitment to save and help all beings.

  8. #8

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    :lol: :lol:
    Let's keep going, sensei, just a bit of dust on the path. Not even dust: non-dust ... sweep, sweep.

    Gassho,
    Ronald.

  9. #9
    Treeleaf Unsui Shohei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    New Brunswick, Canada
    Posts
    2,727

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Thank you for the update and efforts!
    a nobody-unrecognized priest in training in the eyes of some is fine too.

    Gassho
    Shohei

  10. #10

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    thX jundo

    gassho
    gilles

  11. #11

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    As you say Jundo. Let our actions speak as they already have

    Daido

  12. #12
    Senior Member Koshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mexico City
    Posts
    593

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Simply ... who cares what the SZBA has to say in this matter???

    My teachers talk to me and I hear them, trying to learn as much as possible; the other menbers of the Sangha also speak and I listen. I sit with my teachers and peers in each Sit-along or Zazenkai, sometimes more than once in one day ... I see my teachers perform ceremonies with members who have been practicing for years, and have a genuine interest in taking the path of a priest, which represents enormous compassion and sacrifice ... I see, hear and feel all that ... is there anything more real than that? I am in the same room with my Sangha everytime...if the SZBA has not noticed, this room is a very large one, so large that in one side of the room it is day, and in the other it is night :wink:

    Oh The Politics! ... so far from Zen and so close to the little egos and desires of men :roll:

  13. #13
    Member Thane's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Newtonhill, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
    Posts
    49

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Dear Jundo

    I watched the ordinations and i wanted to let you know that i fully support them and what you are doing on treeleaf. I am new to treeleaf but have practiced as a lay person within the soto zen tradition since 1999. Due to work and family commitments i can't make our local group meetings so regularly now and only make it to the monastery once a year. But on treeleaf it is all here, the chance to practice, hear talks and teachings, study of books and scriptures and a genuine warmth and support for fellow sangha members. Although i'm new i really think that treeleaf is great. Do not let this decision alter your course.

    Gassho

    Thane

  14. #14

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Dear Jundo,

    Many thanks for taking the stand and maintaining that stance. I know that I am very thankful for what you, Taigu, and this Sangha have done and will do.

    Gassho,
    Michael

  15. #15
    Senior Member rculver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati Ohio Area (Northern Kentucky)
    Posts
    1,321

    Ordination Tribulation

    It's their loss.


    Shugen

  16. #16

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    HA! Silly Buddhists. Cliques are for kids.



    Gassho,

    Dokan

  17. #17

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    I am sorry to hear that things have gone this way. Do your best, new priests.

    I appreciate your stance, Jundo Sensei. Thanks for what you do.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Shokai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sarnia, Ontario Canada
    Posts
    1,466

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    The woods would be silent if only the best birds were allowed to sing

  19. #19
    Senior Member Yugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Midcoast Maine
    Posts
    1,063

    Ordination Tribulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dokan
    HA! Silly Buddhists. Cliques are for kids.



    Gassho,

    Dokan
    Bravo!! Deep bows

    Gassho
    Yugen

  20. #20

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Shokai
    The woods would be silent if only the best birds were allowed to sing
    Says it all

    Gassho

    Willow

  21. #21
    Treeleaf Unsui Myozan Kodo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    1,358

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    I think only Japanese people should be allowed to be Zen Buddhist priests. ;-)

    Good work Jundo.

    Thanks and Gassho
    Myozan

  22. #22
    Treeleaf Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Mexico
    Posts
    1,571

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Like Leo (Lipor), I am from Mexico and it is virtually impossible for us to find a Zen center.

    Sure, there are acouple of places but they are pretty ellitists and they won't let just anyone join.

    I live outside the capital city, in a smaller city, and Zen is nonexistant.

    Treeleaf is my home and I respect and care for all people in here. I respcet what my teachers say and do.

    And I totally respect Jundo for standing for what we believe.

    Thank you, Jundo.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Shokai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sarnia, Ontario Canada
    Posts
    1,466

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Oh The Politics! ... so far from Zen and so close to the little egos and desires of men

  24. #24

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyonin
    Like Leo (Lipor), I am from Mexico and it is virtually impossible for us to find a Zen center.

    Sure, there are acouple of places but they are pretty ellitists and they won't let just anyone join.

    I live outside the capital city, in a smaller city, and Zen is nonexistant.

    Treeleaf is my home and I respect and care for all people in here. I respcet what my teachers say and do.

    And I totally respect Jundo for standing for what we believe.

    Thank you, Jundo.
    Hi Kyonin... To me Treeleaf isn't just a stand-in for bricks and mortar sangha. It isn't a consolation sangha. It is no less vital than other sanghas. In fact it has a stronger sense of community than some offline sanghas, certainly more than one cold Zen temple I was a part of for several years.. way more heart. Treeleaf creates that essential group energy and structure that facilitates regular practice. This will only get better as the medium evolves.


    Gassho, kojip

  25. #25
    Senior Member Shokai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sarnia, Ontario Canada
    Posts
    1,466

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    This will only get better as the medium evolves.
    So True !!

  26. #26

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Our Ordination Trials and Tribulations have caught the attention of the Buddhadharma/ShambhalaSun folks ...

    http://www.shambhalasun.com/news/?p=33758#more-33758

    Gassho, J

  27. #27
    Senior Member Shokai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sarnia, Ontario Canada
    Posts
    1,466

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Excellent; let's see what that brings 8)

  28. #28
    Senior Member Nenka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Central Illinois, USA
    Posts
    887

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    So, since Myozan was ordained by Taigu in person, he could join SZBA? :roll:

    Gassho

    Jen

  29. #29

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nenka
    So, since Myozan was ordained by Taigu in person, he could join SZBA? :roll:

    Gassho

    Jen
    No, because he is not American. :roll:

    Gassho, Jundo

  30. #30
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Rochester, NY, USA
    Posts
    3,530

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Let's not forget North Americans too like Shohei! So, it's just him, me, and Shinkai. And we're going to start our own club! Well, not really...I just like to feel like I belong, but I am a member of a club....called Treeleaf.

    Gassho,
    Dosho

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Quote Originally Posted by Nenka
    So, since Myozan was ordained by Taigu in person, he could join SZBA? :roll:

    Gassho

    Jen
    No, because he is not American. :roll:

    Gassho, Jundo

  31. #31
    Senior Member Nenka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Central Illinois, USA
    Posts
    887

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Quote Originally Posted by Nenka
    So, since Myozan was ordained by Taigu in person, he could join SZBA? :roll:

    Gassho

    Jen
    No, because he is not American. :roll:

    Gassho, Jundo
    D'oh. ops:

    :lol:

  32. #32
    Senior Member chuck13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Northwest New Jersey
    Posts
    224

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Fascinating to watch as it unfolds. In the world that we live in I believe that what we are doing here is inevitable. Of course there will be resistance to "something different", but in the end change waits for no one. I think we must have all expected this type of thing would happen. But......Resistance is futile.

  33. #33

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dosho
    Let's not forget North Americans too like Shohei! So, it's just him, me, and Shinkai. And we're going to start our own club! Well, not really...I just like to feel like I belong, but I am a member of a club....called Treeleaf.

    It could be a Buddhist Salons des Refusés. When "The Academy" of official art.... refused to admit the great impressionist painters, they mounted their own exhibition called "The Exhibition of the Rejected”, and went on to invent the twentieth century. :mrgreen:



    Gassho, kojip

  34. #34
    Senior Member Kaishin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Indiana, USA
    Posts
    1,395

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Thank you, Jundo.

    Were it not for Treeleaf, I wouldn't be practicing. What else can I say?

    _/_ _/_ _/_

  35. #35
    Senior Member Heisoku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Plymouth, Devon, UK
    Posts
    910

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Same goes for me Keishin!
    Thanks to Jundo and Taigu and everyone who is engaged in this wonderful Sangha. I just wish I could spend more time considering responses during the week but we all do what we can. :wink:
    The diversity in this global Sangha is its strength and I can only add another Gassho for the efforts of Jundo and Taigu in realising this.

  36. #36
    Senior Member Hoyu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,028

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    It's only a matter of time before this issue of theirs is resolved in either one of two ways.

    1) They get with the times. And when I say get with the times I don't just mean these modern technological ones. Their current view on this is outdated by a few centuries! Our very own Buddhist ancestors have told us over and over again to drop concepts of time and space, here and there....all of these things which they seem to be so hung up on!

    2) If they don't change their mind they may eventually get what they want anyway. I believe this Tree is deep rooted and has the potential to continue to branch out and slowly, over time, even have brick and mortar(or vinyl and stucco :wink: ) Zendo all over the world! Treeleaf priests and sangha will be able to meet any time, any place, all together in the "virtual" and "real" world. Both..as one..at once!! Our Treeleaf retreat has already begun to blur these (non)lines.
    Heck, when the time comes I'll be the first to sign up to start the Minnesota chapter
    What will they have to say then?!

    Gassho,
    Hoyu

  37. #37
    Senior Member Hoyu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,028

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Quote Originally Posted by lipor
    I am in the same room with my Sangha everytime...if the SZBA has not noticed, this room is a very large one, so large that in one side of the room it is day, and in the other it is night :wink:
    Beautiful! _/_

  38. #38

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Indeed, let's see what comes of that Sun article. I was wondering if they were going to write something about it.

    At the same time, whether the SZBA recognizes our new priests or not is kind of a non-issue in the broad view of things. They are still priests. Unless either of them has a deep wish to join, there will be no obstruction in the Way if they practice well. There have always been groups that refuse to accept other groups. We will choose to embrace and inform where we can, but let's not take up the torches and pitchforks just yet!

  39. #39
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Rochester, NY, USA
    Posts
    3,530

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Hi all,

    I said it on the Tea Party and I'll say it here: If my only "street cred" as a potential priest is that I am a student of Jundo Cohen, that's good enough for me. I can hope minds will be swayed, other teachers will be welcoming, but I've done what I can do and will do what I can. I can't control what other people do. I have never been around such an accepting and welcoming group of people and it is a treasure.

    'nuff said.

    Gassho,
    Dosho

  40. #40
    Senior Member Ekai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Southeastern Wisconsin
    Posts
    570

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dosho
    Hi all,

    I said it on the Tea Party and I'll say it here: If my only "street cred" as a potential priest is that I am a student of Jundo Cohen, that's good enough for me. I can hope minds will be swayed, other teachers will be welcoming, but I've done what I can do and will do what I can. I can't control what other people do. I have never been around such an accepting and welcoming group of people and it is a treasure.

    'nuff said.

    Gassho,
    Dosho


    Gassho,
    Ekai

  41. #41
    Treeleaf Unsui Myozan Kodo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    1,358

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    "I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have me as a member."
    :-)
    By the way, the SZBA talk as if they are a world authority. Now, there is a world beyond their borders. They want to tell us what to do in Europe (and Japan) too? These are irrelevant pronouncements from the SZBA. Let's get on with practice.

    That's my two Euro Cents worth.

    Gassho
    Myozan

  42. #42

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Myozan Kodo
    "I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have me as a member."
    :-)
    By the way, the SZBA talk as if they are a world authority. Now, there is a world beyond their borders. They want to tell us what to do in Europe (and Japan) too? These are irrelevant pronouncements from the SZBA. Let's get on with practice.

    That's my two Euro Cents worth.

    Gassho
    Myozan
    That's right. Let's get on with practice

    My two Euro Cents, which may become Pesetas again soon... Nothing is permanent, specially currency

  43. #43
    Treeleaf Unsui Shohei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    New Brunswick, Canada
    Posts
    2,727

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Myozan Kodo
    "I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have me as a member."
    :-)
    By the way, the SZBA talk as if they are a world authority. Now, there is a world beyond their borders. They want to tell us what to do in Europe (and Japan) too? These are irrelevant pronouncements from the SZBA. Let's get on with practice.

    That's my two Euro Cents worth.

    Gassho
    Myozan
    gassho!

  44. #44

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Myozan Kodo
    "I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have me as a member."
    :-)
    By the way, the SZBA talk as if they are a world authority. Now, there is a world beyond their borders. They want to tell us what to do in Europe (and Japan) too? These are irrelevant pronouncements from the SZBA. Let's get on with practice.

    That's my two Euro Cents worth.

    Gassho
    Myozan
    You hit the nail on the head Myozan - and we probably shouldn't waste our energy on what the SZBA think. I have come to love this sangha and as an individual don't much care what external bodies think.

    ..... but it's maybe a good exercise in understanding the kind of projections that go on. It seem to me that there all kinds of sub-texts underlying this, because it's about one group wanting to have power over another group(s) that see a need to do things differently.

    Jundo's making a great job of standing up for difference - and it's uplifting to feel everybody's commitment to Treeleaf.

    Gassho

    Willow

  45. #45

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    The Internet has the unique ability to compress time and space; two qualities that I believe that both the Buddha and Albert Einstein have suggested are not quite as fixed and inflexible as we might otherwise believe, and I suspect that Bodhidharma and Dogen would agree. My only question would be "does this serve the Dharma?" I believe that the intent is sincere, and I suspect that similar debates have arisen since before the First Buddhist Council, and will continue to do so whenever a new communication tool arises, whether it be the printing press, translation into English, or Facebook. The proof will be in the proverbial pudding.
    With all beings I bow in gassho to these new priests in sincere gratitude for the sacrifices that they have made and will make in honor of their bodhisattva vows to liberate all sentient beings...including myself.

  46. #46

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Wow what wonderful responses from you all. I was sort of tied up the last couple days and by this morning there was some incredible postings that say it all.

    Like stated by some of you, if it was not for Treeleaf I would have probably given up on practice due to lack of sangha to practice with. I have a home here where I am able to practice each day with our sangha and have ready access to our teachers Jundo and Taigu. I doubt those that practice with other sanghas in a physical presence can find such access and support at those physical locations.

    Does Jundo know who I am even though we have not physically touched? I am sure he does as I know him as a vital part of my life and practice.

    Will be interesting to see what the Buddhadharma/ShambhalaSun folks have to say.

    Anyway, to all at Treeleaf, thank you so much for being here and there…..

    Jim

  47. #47
    Treeleaf Unsui Kyrillos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Montgomery Illinois USA
    Posts
    507

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    We have more opportunity of contact and teaching here at/with Treeleaf than at any "bricks and mortar"/"wood and rice paper" Zendo. Too often the teachers at the larger urban zendos are simply not available, or only during sesshin and then only several times a year. Here we get to bend Jundo or Taigu's ear any time, any day of the week...even call them up and talk to them face to face. For the availability of the Teacher is far more important than the rarity of their deigned visitation.

    And....if those Zenists who want to "uphold tradition" really want to "get real", they ought to require that their disciples travel by foot to their temple for Jukai ot Tokudo...no car, no bus, no train. Let's get really orthodox and primitive!!!! ORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR...we can admit that we live in the 21st century and utilize the tools available to us. Hey I do not still use a quill and soot ink on parchment in a scriptorum at my hermitage...I've got a laptop.... :shock:

    Jundo, Taigu you have this old monk's support. Go, Do, make it happen wherever and however you can.

    Gassho for your teaching,

    Seishin Kyrill

  48. #48
    Senior Member Kaishin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Indiana, USA
    Posts
    1,395

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrillos
    We have more opportunity of contact and teaching here at/with Treeleaf than at any "bricks and mortar"/"wood and rice paper" Zendo. Too often the teachers at the larger urban zendos are simply not available, or only during sesshin and then only several times a year. Here we get to bend Jundo or Taigu's ear any time, any day of the week...even call them up and talk to them face to face. For the availability of the Teacher is far more important than the rarity of their deigned visitation.
    Indeed!

  49. #49
    Senior Member Hoyu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,028

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrillos
    We have more opportunity of contact and teaching here at/with Treeleaf than at any "bricks and mortar"/"wood and rice paper" Zendo. Too often the teachers at the larger urban zendos are simply not available, or only during sesshin and then only several times a year. Here we get to bend Jundo or Taigu's ear any time, any day of the week...even call them up and talk to them face to face. For the availability of the Teacher is far more important than the rarity of their deigned visitation.

    And....if those Zenists who want to "uphold tradition" really want to "get real", they ought to require that their disciples travel by foot to their temple for Jukai ot Tokudo...no car, no bus, no train. Let's get really orthodox and primitive!!!! ORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR...we can admit that we live in the 21st century and utilize the tools available to us. Hey I do not still use a quill and soot ink on parchment in a scriptorum at my hermitage...I've got a laptop.... :shock:

    Jundo, Taigu you have this old monk's support. Go, Do, make it happen wherever and however you can.

    Gassho for your teaching,

    Seishin Kyrill
    +1
    _/_

  50. #50
    Treeleaf Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Mexico
    Posts
    1,571

    Re: Ordination Tribulation

    Wait! Mexico is in North America!

    Now where did I put that SZBA application form?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dosho
    Let's not forget North Americans too like Shohei! So, it's just him, me, and Shinkai. And we're going to start our own club! Well, not really...I just like to feel like I belong, but I am a member of a club....called Treeleaf.

    Gassho,
    Dosho

    ]

Similar Threads

  1. Our 'SHUKKE TOKUDO' ORDINATION ... The Film ...
    By Jundo in forum TREELEAF COMMUNITY: Topics about Zazen, Zen, Buddhism & MORE ZAZEN!
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 06-07-2012, 05:42 PM
  2. Ordination
    By Kyrillos in forum TREELEAF COMMUNITY: Topics about Zazen, Zen, Buddhism & MORE ZAZEN!
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 06-25-2010, 06:20 PM
  3. Ordination
    By Eika in forum TREELEAF COMMUNITY: Topics about Zazen, Zen, Buddhism & MORE ZAZEN!
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 12-21-2007, 01:05 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •