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Thread: the recursive I am...

  1. #1

    the recursive I am...

    I am not the victim of various forces. I am the source of the forces that shape the "I" and am responsible for that shape. "I am" is the fallacy nevertheless, leaving just the shape of what I know. So where does the responsibility fit in? This is the question that interrupts my zazen, that in its interruption keeps me thinking instead of falling back on the infinitely-small space behind myself where I tend to think realization resides. And yet, the residence of the real me is recursive and self-perpetuating. Intellectually, I am stuck. At the same time, I am aware that intellectualizing all this is counterproductive.

    What (who (why)) is all this moving toward?

    all I have is here in this, somewhere.

    -tobi

  2. #2

    Re: the recursive I am...

    Are we not complete in ourselves and each in himself? Life as it is lived suffices. It is only when the disquieting intellect steps in and tries to murder it that we stop to live and imagine ourselves to be short of or in to something. Let the intellect alone, it has its usefulness in its proper sphere, but let it not interfere with the life-stream. If you are at all tempted to look into it, do so while letting it flow. The fact of flowing must under no circumstances be arrested or meddled with, for the moment your hands are dipped into it, its transparency is disturbed, it ceases to reflect your image which you have had from the very beginning and will continue to have to the end..

    ~ D.T. Suzuki
    (http://www.amazon.com/Essays-Buddhis...=AG56TWVU5XWC2)


    The questioner, who sits so sly,
    Shall never know how to reply.
    He who replies to words of doubt
    Doth put the light of knowledge out.

    ~ Blake


    _/_

  3. #3
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: the recursive I am...

    Reality is not a problem to solve. Western logic relies on the excluded middle, but each polar end, each '0' and '1' of duality is also a fiction. But that's not saying that it's incorrect to say the flashing light is either 'on' or 'off'.

    Do you want to study 'Buddhism: The Coherent Philosophy' or 'Buddhism: The Lived Truth of Reality in Each Moment'(?) Better to study both, maybe - just remember that the map isn't the trip.

    IMHO.

    Chet

  4. #4

    Re: the recursive I am...

    For me, the coherent philosophy is more intriguing, because it is knowledge, and I'm addicted to gathering it constantly. Living in the moment, however, is vital to understanding the knowledge I gather. I like Nate's hands-in-the-water metaphor, that's exactly where it all falls apart.

    Reading back over that, I wonder whether trying to understand the knowledge is the very dipping of the hands. :?

    -tobi

  5. #5

    Re: the recursive I am...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobiishi
    I am not the victim of various forces. I am the source of the forces that shape the "I" and am responsible for that shape. "I am" is the fallacy nevertheless, leaving just the shape of what I know. So where does the responsibility fit in? This is the question that interrupts my zazen, that in its interruption keeps me thinking instead of falling back on the infinitely-small space behind myself where I tend to think realization resides. And yet, the residence of the real me is recursive and self-perpetuating. Intellectually, I am stuck. At the same time, I am aware that intellectualizing all this is counterproductive.

    What (who (why)) is all this moving toward?

    all I have is here in this, somewhere.

    -tobi
    Hi Tobi,

    I would like to have "you" join "us" in reflecting on Book Of Equanimity Koan 2, Bodhidharma's Vast Emptiness, from this upcoming Friday.

    Gassho, Jundo

  6. #6
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: the recursive I am...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobiishi
    For me, the coherent philosophy is more intriguing, because it is knowledge, and I'm addicted to gathering it constantly. Living in the moment, however, is vital to understanding the knowledge I gather. I like Nate's hands-in-the-water metaphor, that's exactly where it all falls apart.

    Reading back over that, I wonder whether trying to understand the knowledge is the very dipping of the hands. :?

    -tobi
    Knowledge is for the navigating, but the walk is its own thing. This thing, properly done, will cause you to abandon much precious knowledge and hold the rest much more loosely. At least it has for me. How new it is for me to hear two contradictory statements, find them both valid and be unperturbed (even while acknowledging that choices must be made).

    Chet

  7. #7
    Senior Member Nenka's Avatar
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    Re: the recursive I am...

    just remember that the map isn't the trip
    _/_

    Jen

  8. #8
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: the recursive I am...

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobiishi
    For me, the coherent philosophy is more intriguing, because it is knowledge, and I'm addicted to gathering it constantly. Living in the moment, however, is vital to understanding the knowledge I gather. I like Nate's hands-in-the-water metaphor, that's exactly where it all falls apart.

    Reading back over that, I wonder whether trying to understand the knowledge is the very dipping of the hands. :?

    -tobi
    Knowledge is for the navigating, but the walk is its own thing. This thing, properly done, will cause you to abandon much precious knowledge and hold the rest much more loosely. At least it has for me. How new it is for me to hear two contradictory statements, find them both valid and be unperturbed (even while acknowledging that choices must be made).

    Chet
    Wow, I read this again and it sounds wildly pretentious. Apologies. Seems I still got a long way to go (nowhere).

    Chet

  9. #9

    Re: the recursive I am...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobiishi
    I am not the victim of various forces. I am the source of the forces that shape the "I" and am responsible for that shape. "I am" is the fallacy nevertheless, leaving just the shape of what I know. So where does the responsibility fit in? This is the question that interrupts my zazen, that in its interruption keeps me thinking instead of falling back on the infinitely-small space behind myself where I tend to think realization resides. And yet, the residence of the real me is recursive and self-perpetuating. Intellectually, I am stuck. At the same time, I am aware that intellectualizing all this is counterproductive.

    What (who (why)) is all this moving toward?

    all I have is here in this, somewhere.

    -tobi
    Hi Tobi,

    I would like to have "you" join "us" in reflecting on Book Of Equanimity Koan 2, Bodhidharma's Vast Emptiness, from this upcoming Friday.

    Gassho, Jundo
    I would be delighted... except I don't have the book. Will the koan be posted?

  10. #10

    Re: the recursive I am...

    Hi,

    Some portions are available online, pending purchase ...

    http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=fjtE ... &q&f=false

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Book-Equanimi ... 0861713877

    Gassho, J

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