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Thread: Taigu's Bulls

  1. #1
    Friend of Treeleaf Myozan Kodo's Avatar
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    Taigu's Bulls

    Two bulls drinking at a stream.
    One a reflection of the other.
    But which one?

  2. #2
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Myozan's bulls:

    Two bulls drinking
    could they both be reflections
    of the very stream?

    No drinking, no bull
    not even a stream
    where are you then?

    :wink:

    T.

  3. #3

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Sounds like a bunch of bull to me. :wink:

  4. #4

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    A Zen Priest poetry slam ... This is a first.

  5. #5
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    An old tradition, Gregor...conversing in poems has always been a way to bypass the limitations of the dualistic mind, a way to dance, just leaving birds feet prints in the snow. Nothing much. Actually bullshit. . i also call it junk on my blog. But much better that the would be this and that, i think this and it wouldnt be better like that that you find eveywhere.

    There is something I cannot teach.

    The way of birds, waters, rain and stuff.


    Feel welcome.

    Gassho


    T.

  6. #6

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    These are wonderful. Thank you Myozan and Taigu. Here is a little addition.


    No bulls, no stream, no reflections.
    Where am I?
    Beside the steady breathing
    Of my wife’s sleep.



    Gassho,
    alan

  7. #7

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by alan.r
    These are wonderful. Thank you Myozan and Taigu. Here is a little addition.


    No bulls, no stream, no reflections.
    Where am I?
    Beside the steady breathing
    Of my wife’s sleep.



    Gassho,
    alan
    Alan, you might enjoy the Haiku Chain thread. Gassho, Grace.

  8. #8
    Friend of Treeleaf Myozan Kodo's Avatar
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Great responses!

    The bull enters the stream:
    They are one!
    Tokudo in a room or online:
    Different permutations, same sum.

    Time this monk versifying quit.
    My great awakening?
    That I'm full of shit.


    :wink:

  9. #9
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Beautiful, beautiful thread.

    I will sit on that.

    Thank you.

  10. #10
    Treeleaf Unsui Shokai's Avatar
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Choco;

    May be a language thing but, don't sit on it; sit with it :lol:

    And Myozan; not full, just down a quart. :lol:

  11. #11
    disastermouse
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    I was never able to talk about bulls and streams. Even coming from the country, bulls were not a regular part of my life. Neither are lotus blossoms or chopsticks or mystic mountains.

    I think it all started simple with teachers referencing what was at hand. We could be talking about one's hand on a PS3 controller or motorcycle handlebars. We could talk about vodka mixing with water...

    Not as poetic, but with a lot less embellishment or reversions to old forms that can make what is really quite mundane seem 'special' in an artificial way.

    What is more direct and immediate than reality? Why not use what is most direct and immediate to illustrate it?

    My half a nickel,

    Chet

  12. #12

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    I was never able to talk about bulls and streams. Even coming from the country, bulls were not a regular part of my life. Neither are lotus blossoms or chopsticks or mystic mountains.

    I think it all started simple with teachers referencing what was at hand. We could be talking about one's hand on a PS3 controller or motorcycle handlebars. We could talk about vodka mixing with water...

    Not as poetic, but with a lot less embellishment or reversions to old forms that can make what is really quite mundane seem 'special' in an artificial way.

    What is more direct and immediate than reality? Why not use what is most direct and immediate to illustrate it?

    My half a nickel,

    Chet
    In the morning sun
    empty bottles on the windowsill.
    My hair still smells like smoke.

    *

    The dog running in his sleep,
    a dusty controller not touched in years.
    Another spring day.



    Here are the things that go in poem, here are the things that don't? Here are the things that are real, here are the things that aren't?

    A poem is its own reality; it just also happens to point.

  13. #13
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Quite true Chet and yet the bull here has a good old significance as well...I often use modern words in my f..... .. poetry. Which I have boiled down to the simpliest form. Used to write novels, essays, philosophy, very long forms.
    But your suggestion is good and welcome.

    gassho


    Taigu

  14. #14
    disastermouse
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu
    Quite true Chet and yet the bull here has a good old significance as well...I often use modern words in my f..... .. poetry. Which I have boiled down to the simpliest form. Used to write novels, essays, philosophy, very long forms.
    But your suggestion is good and welcome.

    gassho


    Taigu
    We're you referencing the Ox Herder?

    Chet

    (I think I need to work on making my comments sound less critical. Often times I make it sound like my preference is 'the way'. I have no problem understanding the old poems and stories about lotuses and other common things of the time and I understand the stylistic choice. I'll try to make an attempt to reflect that it's preference.)

  15. #15
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Indeed, Chet and some other stuff. First, Myozan's poem is inspired by my quote of an old Koan describing two bulls entering a river and vanishing, obviously a vivid description of how the pair of opposites cannot but collapse into each other. Second, the sound of awakening is often described as being like the spontaneous, gut-like, sound of a cow, or a bull. Because the bull, wild ox, water buffalo or cow represent the original nature, raw and empty. Third, the famous Koan of the Gateless gate comes to mind, case 38 of a great cow or bull passing through a window and the tail not making it...

    gassho

    Taigu

  16. #16
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    For Chet

    Two rats at a polluted puddle.
    One a reflection of the other.
    But which one?


    Thanks Taigu. I just wrote the poem inspired by your words. A deep bow for your teachings.

    PS: I used to watch the bull on my Uncle Noel's farm when I was a child. He drank from a stream that goes through his land. I've also seen rats at puddles. But that is of no consequence. I could imagine them too. I could imagine the bull in a distant time and place. There are no restrictions. Everything is available.

  17. #17
    disastermouse
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    I wasn't talking about availability, I was talking about immediacy, but I get your point.

    Taigu: I need to study more. Gassho.

    Chet

  18. #18

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Hi Chet - as Taigu says - you make a valid point.

    Plenty of space for both ways of coming at things - but you did
    hit the nail on the head (again - you often do). I had been thinking
    to myself that it's important to find our own metaphors - whilst learning from
    and appreciated the past.

    I find your thoughts here enlivening - you are not afraid to say what you think.
    Perhaps you feel the presentation is too direct/or comes across in a negative/critical manner - but I wouldn't worry - we are
    all different - not a bad thing to have different styles.

    Thank you

    Willow

  19. #19
    Friend of Treeleaf Myozan Kodo's Avatar
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    How about a verse guys?
    Gassho
    Myozan

  20. #20
    disastermouse
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Myozan Kodo
    How about a verse guys?
    Gassho
    Myozan
    I always feel trite and pretentious writing poetry anywhere anyone can see it. That's not an indictment of anyone else's poetry though.

    Chet

  21. #21
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    LOL

    You are right! That's my bad English working. Thanks Shokai.

    I will sit with that

    Quote Originally Posted by Shokai
    Choco;

    May be a language thing but, don't sit on it; sit with it :lol:

    And Myozan; not full, just down a quart. :lol:

  22. #22

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    I always feel trite and pretentious writing poetry anywhere anyone can see it.
    Chet
    Chet,
    That's the problem with self-attachment. That's why "the delusions are inexhaustible".
    PS. Btw, I feel the same way, but working on it

  23. #23

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse

    I always feel trite and pretentious writing poetry anywhere anyone can see it.

    Chet
    Ah, this is a little sad, to me. And I hate to steer the topic away from the original question (why are we using old forms and images?), but poetry is almost dead as a popular form, especially in this country, and I think it's because of this feeling. Many people get the idea that poetry, in general, is pretentious, for stuck up, intellectuals. And if you write poetry then you're the height of pretentiousness. I realize you're saying you feel this way about yourself, but this is also the attitude I find from most non-poetry readers (the cause is diverse: pop culture, tv, all the other entertainments, etc). Anyway, the reason for this is often under-exposure both to poetry and of poems (and I'm not saying this about you necessarily): people who don't like poetry or find it pretentious are the same ones who don't read it (because it's not accessible) and don't write it. Anyway, just as someone who values poems and fiction, I urge you to share something! Though of course, no need to worry about it either. It's not that big a deal.

    Also, the idea that we have to find new forms and images and metaphors: this is essentially (at least in the West) the time in the art (literature) world called Modernism (1890-1930s) and then Post-Modernism. There's actually been, along with tons of experimental writing, a huge push back in the last thirty or forty years toward older forms. And this isn't to say that we're not meant to find new images and explore and invent, but as Willow says, this exploration always goes on with a strong association and appreciation of the past - the place where the new and old meet.

    In any case, I apologize for the literary history. Back to the cushion for me!

    Gassho,
    Alan

  24. #24

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Hi Alan - I have always enjoyed poetry - both reading and writing it - so I'm with you on this.

    ... but just wanted to clarify - when I said about finding a personal metaphor I wasn't really thinking about
    tradition ( and movements within literature/poetry/art etc).

    I was thinking more of the freshness of the equivalent of 'beginners mind'.

    ... if that makes any sense?

    Gassho

    Willow

  25. #25

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by willow
    Hi Alan - I have always enjoyed poetry - both reading and writing it - so I'm with you on this.

    ... but just wanted to clarify - when I said about finding a personal metaphor I wasn't really thinking about
    tradition ( and movements within literature/poetry/art etc).

    I was thinking more of the freshness of the equivalent of 'beginners mind'.

    ... if that makes any sense?

    Gassho

    Willow
    That makes absolute sense. And I agree with you, but with a difference. Sometimes, to me, beginner's mind can also be a reach back into the past. Anyway, I was just coming at it from a different angle. Also, living in the kind of writing world I sometimes live in, the "need" for originality, uniqueness, and experimentation gets a little stale in my opinion. To me, whether the form is old or new, whether the subject is old or new, what matters is the way in which the language unfolds: in clarity and simplicity (not simpleness). If the poem/writing is able to convey some complex truth or emotion in a precise, simplistic way, then: a bell resounding in and through me. Old form, new form, old images, new images, whatever; each and all beginner's mind; if clarity and simplicity ring through the thing, that's it.

    Gassho,
    Alan

  26. #26

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Bulls are just bulls,
    Mirrors are just mirrors,
    more I dont know.

    _()_
    Myoku (the un-poet)

  27. #27
    Senior Member Heisoku's Avatar
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Two bulls meet
    And enter the stream.
    The reflection of the stream
    Is the bull's drinking.

  28. #28
    Friend of Treeleaf Myozan Kodo's Avatar
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Two bulls drinking:



    PS: I like the verses above. Gassho. Myozan.

  29. #29
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Just loooooooooooooooooooooooooove it!


    gassho

    T,

  30. #30

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Two bulls - empty stream
    horns lock
    eyes lock
    reflected gaze
    into infinity

    Gassho

    Willow

    (those bulls have taken up residence in my head :shock: )

  31. #31

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    And where are the students?
    And what do you teach them?
    To carry water, or to shit words?

    Gassho

    W

  32. #32
    disastermouse
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by will
    And where are the students?
    And what do you teach them?
    To carry water, or to shit words?

    Gassho

    W
    Zen is not a dualistic religion. We can do both!

    Chet

  33. #33

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Quote Originally Posted by will
    And where are the students?
    And what do you teach them?
    To carry water, or to shit words?

    Gassho

    W
    Zen is not a dualistic religion. We can do both!

    Chet
    lol

    Can we?

    Are you sure?!

    Gassho

    W

  34. #34

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    the two bulls are one,
    The river is one,
    All in harmony in the moment of one.

    My englisch is not that good,
    so maybe it reflect not what i want too
    :twisted:

  35. #35

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    I just had an experience that made me think of the 2 bulls. When I was taking my dogs out, I noticed a spider hanging on a single web-strand from a tree. The only reason I noticed it was because it contrasted with the other "things". When I took my second dog out, I tried to look for just it, and everything melded together as I tried to do this. It was of no use, it was on a backdrop of dark greenery from a bush about 20 or 30 feet away. But then the wind came and it swayed again to where I could distinguish it.

    There or not, I don't know.

    Gassho,

    Risho

  36. #36

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    the two bulls
    are not two
    but don't confuse them.





    justs riffing..

  37. #37
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Hi Kojip,

    Beautiful non-dual jewel

    gassho

    T.

  38. #38
    Friend of Treeleaf Myozan Kodo's Avatar
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Love that Kojip!
    Gassho
    Myozan

  39. #39
    Treeleaf Unsui Yugen's Avatar
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    The two bulls
    I have stepped in it
    A mound of shit
    Lotus flower

    Gassho
    Yugen

  40. #40
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Two-bulls-are-the-river,
    The wind is breathing them,
    I'm thirsty as well.

  41. #41

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Two-bulls-are-the-river,
    The wind is breathing them,
    I'm thirsty as well.
    Ahh, poetry! Unpretentious but good! :wink:

  42. #42

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Grace wrote
    Ahh, poetry! Unpretentious but good!

    I'll second that Grace 8)

    Willow

  43. #43

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Graceleejenkins
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Two-bulls-are-the-river,
    The wind is breathing them,
    I'm thirsty as well.
    Ahh, poetry! Unpretentious but good! :wink:

    just testing that I've finally sussed how to do the re-quote
    so this one should have the correct smilie !

    Willow

  44. #44

    Taigu's Bulls

    Are bulls just bulls?
    Or the whole of the flowing river
    The mirror is just bull

    /Pontus

  45. #45

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Two-bulls-are-the-river,
    The wind is breathing them,
    I'm thirsty as well.
    That rocks.

  46. #46
    Friend of Treeleaf Myozan Kodo's Avatar
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    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    The bulls are breeding! Nicely.
    Gassho
    Myozan

  47. #47

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by Myozan Kodo
    The bulls are breeding!
    breeding bulls?
    but what happened to the
    cows? :lol:

  48. #48

    Re: Taigu's Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by gongli
    Quote Originally Posted by Myozan Kodo
    The bulls are breeding!
    breeding bulls?
    but what happened to the
    cows? :lol:
    :lol: We cows? :wink: According to Rich in another thread, finish line dogma, "find the Holy Cow in the Holy Now." Gassho, Grace.

  49. #49

    Taigu's Bulls

    Quote Originally Posted by gongli
    Quote Originally Posted by Myozan Kodo
    The bulls are breeding!
    breeding bulls?
    but what happened to the
    cows? :lol:
    As long as there's love!

    /Pontus

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