Results 1 to 26 of 26

Thread: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

  1. #1

    SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    I came across a discussion on the internet this week about "how to Shikantaza" ... and much good and solid advice was given. Some folks follow the breath, some "Just Sit" in boundless spaciousness, some advised this or that on the posture and letting thoughts go. All wise and good, and talk of posture, focus and such are all a necessary setting of the stage.

    However, in my view (and that is all it is, and hopefully a viewless view too) SOMETHING VITAL WAS LACKING AND LEFT OUT OF THE CONVERSATION, something without which Zazen is perhaps left incomplete and lacking ...

    ... TO WIT, THAT NOTHING IS EVER LACKING, EVER MISSING, EVER INCOMPLETE, EVER NOT FULLY HELD AND FULLY REALIZED IN A MOMENT OF ZAZEN! A moment of sitting is THE BUDDHA, THE PURE LAND, NIRVANA ATTAINED! Each instant of Zazen is the only act, the only place to be, in and holding all time and space in that moment!

    The meaning of that may confuse some folks ... but those who don't get it JUST DON'T GET IT (in my view and viewless anyway)!

    What don't they get?

    That to realize that one is never, from the outset, in need of change is an earthshaking CHANGE! There is absolutely nothing about you and the universe (not two) to add or take away, and tasting that there is "nothing to add" is an vital addition! Just Sitting to-the-marrow, radically dropping all goals, judgments, dropping all desire to get somewhere and attain a realization ... gets one somewhere, and a revolutionary realization! Truly understanding that everything is completely beyond need for change is a complete change, and finding that there was never a place to get to is finally getting somewhere.

    Posture, breath, not grabbing onto or stirring up thoughts, living by the Precepts ... all are vital to our Way. Yet, neither are they sufficient. Zazen is not some "method", some "process" or "recipe". There is no "method" for there is "no goal" or destination!

    Why?

    By sitting the Wholly Holy Whole without need for change ... there is thus the most radical change of no longer wishing for change or needing change amid the every changing changeless ... thereby Shikantaza is the perfect medicine for the dis-ease and dis-satisfaction of Dukkha.

    SHIKANTAZA MUST BE SAT AS THE ONE AND ONLY PRACTICE NEEDED AND ALL COMPLETED. In fact, rising from the cushion, all of life's acts ... the most mundane ... can thus be encountered as each and all Whole and Sacred too. Likewise, daily chanting, bowing or praying are each "Shikantaza" when encountered as Wholly Holy Whole. In fact, Zazen itself ... though never less than complete ... is not enough, and all of life and ethical living is our place of practice and realization! Not one piece of life is left out as 'Shikantaza' seen for such. Yet ... we sit Shikantaza seated Zazen each day as our way is to sit.

    Fail to emphasize this point(in my view, and that is all it is ... hopefully viewless too) and one is just teaching meditation, milk toast, perhaps a kind of shikantaza ... but not SHIKANTAZA!

    A bit more to hammer this home:


    .
    Last edited by Jundo; 03-22-2013 at 03:55 AM.

  2. #2

    SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    Thank you! That was a damn good statement! *thumbs up*

    /Pontus

  3. #3

    SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    I posted your video on ZFI Jundo. Hope that is OK! If not, tell me and I'll remove it.

    http://www.zenforuminternational.org/vi ... =10&t=7767

    /Pontus

  4. #4

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    Quote Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi
    I posted your video on ZFI Jundo. Hope that is OK! If not, tell me and I'll remove it.

    http://www.zenforuminternational.org/vi ... =10&t=7767

    /Pontus
    Hi Pontus,

    All good. I don't post there out of a small personal protest on some censorship issues there ... some censorship of my criticisms of monasticism, ordination, "goal seeking" practice (although right for some ... many paths up the non-mountain), the sometime "hocus pocus" and superstitious silliness in Buddhism and some other issues for example. They are too "PC" for my tastes, and it makes serious ... civil and polite and open minded, but strong and "say it straight" ... discussion very difficult.

    However, this topic was of such vital importance to all of us ... that I felt to speak up.

    Gassho, Jundo

  5. #5

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    Gassho,

    Risho


    ####### EDIT ####
    Initially I was going to say Gassho, and go along my merry way, but I get stuck here a lot. How is it that something can be complete and whole, yet it is not enough? If it were complete wouldn't it also be enough?

    I know it's not enough. I mean intuitively as a human being, there are people who need help that we can help. So I'm not trying to ask this sarcastically. I'm just trying to understand this. I don't even know how to articulate the question properly.

    I guess by "complete" do you mean these things have a completeness and lack nothing from a selfish perspective? For example, when we want to lose weight or "better ourselves". I mean in a sense if weren't already whole, we couldn't better anything. We already have within us what it takes. But from the ego's perspective I'm less than a man because I can't bench press such and such of a weight. Another example may be reading. In a sense we are taught to read, but at the same time, we just discovered an inherent capability of what it is to be human.

    I don't want to stray too much off topic. I'm just trying to understand what is meant by whole and complete yet not being enough.

    This time a sincere Gassho

    Risho

  6. #6

    SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    I'm sure Jundo will explain how he means in more skillful ways, but in the meantime I can at least share how I feel about it!

    Intuitively, as you say, you realize that just sitting your whole life away, like a bump on a log, doing nothing, is not enough. If we did, we wouldn't be experiencing the dance show of life completely, would we? It simply doesn't seem like natural, spontaneous human living, and in my view, it doesn't have to be more complicated than that. At some point, after realizing the nature of things, practice is seen as nothing special and we just return to the marketplace, to use the analogy of the ten ox herding pictures.

    But, as Jundo says, Shikantaza must be sat as the one and only practice needed and complete in itself. When sitting, it is whole and complete, but in the bigger picture, in the experience of life, it is not enough. There's really nothing else that needs doing, in essence everything else is as useless as Zazen, but why not do things anyway?

    Just some thoughts...

    /Pontus

  7. #7

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    I just read a topic in Topics about All LIfe that Nate started, and I think that nails the crux of my question. To paraphrase Jundo (I hope not poorly :mrgreen Just because something is "perfectly as it is" does not mean it is completely perfect if that makes any sense. Perfect is such a loaded word because it necessitates a comparison and is predicated on the fact that I personally believe something is lacking in some regard. But I am exactly who I am. Compared to Michael Jordan I'm a terrible basketball player.. but who the hell is making that comparison anyway? In terms of this moment, our life that is just ridiculous, but that type of judgement is done by my ego all the time. This perfectly-as-it-is-ness is not the same ideal of perfection in my grasping mind (perfect as it is compared to?). According to my grasping mind, things are never ok, always need to be tweaked and adjusted, never satisfied... dukkha. But if that mind is not given into, perhaps we can see that everything is perfectly as they are (even if that means they need fixing) and just calm down a bit and stop chasing our own tails? That is the magic of Shikantaza.

    Perhaps, things aren't ok, but that's ok (I stole that from something I recently read, don't remember where, but it seems to fit). There's no need to feed into this desperation of trying to "fix" something as if that will suddenly release us from feelings of all bad. it's just another attachment to filter out bad to hold onto what we think is good.. .which is this neverending cycle that continues our trek through dukkha. But we should still take an active role to fix things just not let our well being depend on it.

    Gassho,

    Risho

    P.S. apologies for the horrid grammar

  8. #8

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    Quote Originally Posted by Risho
    ... I get stuck here a lot. How is it that something can be complete and whole, yet it is not enough? If it were complete wouldn't it also be enough?
    Hey Risho,

    Actually, it is not so tricky ... and the difficulty comes perhaps from only experiencing this self-life-world from one perspective at once. Here is a good analogy as to why Dogen called our way an active "Practice-Enlightenment" ...

    Let's compare Practice to "climbing a mountain" toward some summit ... be that summit Buddhahood, "Saving All Sentient Beings" .... and toward many small goals ranging from "ending all wars and curing all disease in the world" to "kicking my drug addiction" to "losing 20 pounds and being a better spouse/parent" etc etc. We climb climb climb toward those goals, step by step, day by day with energy and sincerity. Sometimes we make the goal, sometimes not or fall in the mud.

    At the same time ... At Once, As One ... we can experience-live this in other ways too:

    We also simultaneously experience each step-by-step up the mountain as a "total arrival" at the mountain! The climb is the journey, each inch the destination. In fact, it is all the mountain. and each moment is "climbing the mountain". Really, there is no where to go on this hike that is not the Buddha-mountain, and place to sit which is not the Buddha-mountain.

    Heck, from another perspective ... it is all the mountain, cause you ... like the rocks and dirt and trees and sun and sky ... are the mountain scenery too! In fact, as you walk the mountain, the mountain is walking you (i.e., as your shoes head up the mountain trail, we might also see that the mountain trail is heading down your shoes! :shock: )

    See all this At Once, As One ... and climb climb climb. Sit sit sit. All the Hike!

    Yes it is a Koan ... and many of the traditional Koans (as we shall encounter when we sit with the Book of Serenity) are on these very simultaneous ways of seeing/experiencing/being in life.

    Something like that.

    I once wrote this about working on our bad habits and such ...


    Perhaps a fellow sits down to Zazen for the first time who is a violent man, a thief and alcoholic. He hears that “all is Buddha just as it is“, so thinks that Zen practice means “all is a jewel just as it is, so thus maybe I can simply stay that way, just drink and beat my wife and rob strangers“. Well, no, because while a thief and wife-beater is just that … a thief and wife-beater, yet a Buddha nonetheless … still, someone filled with such anger and greed and empty holes to fill in their psyche is not really “at peace with how things are” (or he would not beat and steal and need to self-medicate). In other words, he takes and craves and acts out anger and frustration because he does not truly understand “peace with this life as it is” … because if he did, he would not need to be those violent, punishing ways.

    If the angry, violent fellow truly knew “completeness“, truly had “no hole in need of filling“, “nothing lacking” everything “complete just as it is” … well, he simply would not have need to do violence, steal and take drugs to cover his inner pain.

    You see … kind of a self-fulfilling Catch-22.

    Thus, our “goalless sitting” in Zazen is –not– merely sitting on our butts, self-satisfied, feeling that we “just have to sit here and we are Buddha“. Far from it. It is, instead, to-the-marrow dropping of all need and lack. That is very different. Someone’s “just sitting around” doing nothing, going no where, complacent or resigned, giving up, killing time, is not in any way the same as “Just Sitting” practice wherein nothing need be done, with no where that we can go or need go, for all is faced ‘head on’ and energetically as already whole and complete … even while we realize that the choices we make in life have consequences, that how we choose to walk the walk in this life, and the directions we choose to go, do make a difference!

    more here:
    viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2914&p=41795&hilit=alcoholic+ catch+22#p41795
    Gassho, J

  9. #9

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    the absolute and the relative work together like two arrows meeting in mod-air.
    this is our practice. Understanding that all is perfectly lacking nothing, yet at the same time 'not enough'

    If you hold to one side, absolute side, you get stuck and miss the point.
    if you hold to the relative side, you get stuck and miss the point.

    let go of both the absolute and the relative. Let go of perfectly perfect lacking nothing and 'not enough'

    and live you life as is, moment by moment.

    there are some things in life that can be figured out, but not life itself.

  10. #10

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    I am sincerely touched by the understandings and insights of a young man by the name of Seiryu.


    gassho


    Taigu

  11. #11

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    Quote Originally Posted by Seiryu
    the absolute and the relative work together like two arrows meeting in mod-air.
    this is our practice. Understanding that all is perfectly lacking nothing, yet at the same time 'not enough'

    If you hold to one side, absolute side, you get stuck and miss the point.
    if you hold to the relative side, you get stuck and miss the point.

    let go of both the absolute and the relative. Let go of perfectly perfect lacking nothing and 'not enough'

    and live you life as is, moment by moment.

    there are some things in life that can be figured out, but not life itself.
    Yes, thank you.
    This is it, isn't it?
    Thanks for the reminder,
    /Pontus

  12. #12

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    Deep Gassho for your patience and explanation. Sometimes I rely on my intellect too much.

    Risho

  13. #13

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    Thank you Jundo.

    Gassho,

    Dokan

    PS - Up on Podcast

  14. #14

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    Thank you Jundo for this talk. Your passion for shikantaza is contagious

  15. #15
    Senior Member Heisoku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Plymouth, Devon, UK
    Posts
    1,198

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    This wholeness is sacred......with nowhere left for dukkha
    Thank you Jundo...

  16. #16

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    Thanks for the teaching Jundo

  17. #17

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    Quote Originally Posted by Seiryu

    let go of both the absolute and the relative. Let go of perfectly perfect lacking nothing and 'not enough'

    and live you life as is, moment by moment.

    there are some things in life that can be figured out, but not life itself.
    Beautiful. Thanks.

    Nice talk, jundo.

  18. #18

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    Quote Originally Posted by Seiryu

    there are some things in life that can be figured out, but not life itself.
    Isn't that the truth!

    _/_ all

  19. #19

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    Gassho

  20. #20
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Mexico
    Posts
    2,691

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    Powerful teaching.

    Thank you Jundo.

  21. #21

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    Thank you Jundo for keeping the Way clear and open.

    gassho
    Greg

  22. #22
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Rochester, NY, USA
    Posts
    4,878

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    Jundo,

    Thank you for this teaching.

    Gassho,
    Dosho

  23. #23
    Treeleaf Engineer Seimyo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Yuba City, California, USA
    Posts
    881

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    Thank you Jundo for this message.

    Thank you Seiryu for your additional thoughts, I found them very useful.

    Gassho,
    Chris

  24. #24
    Treeleaf Unsui rculver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati Ohio Area (Northern Kentucky)
    Posts
    1,699

    SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    Gassho!

    Ron


    Shugen

  25. #25

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHOLLY HOLY WHOLE

    I just keep listening to this Sit-A-Long again and again....it just really hits a nerve (in a good way). I feel this description of zazen is really gets at its "essence."

    Gassho,
    Jisen/BrianW

  26. #26
    Jundo,

    Thank you for this.

    Charlie

Similar Threads

  1. Hell-raising holy men: Buddhist monks drinking and gambling
    By AlanLa in forum TREELEAF COMMUNITY: Topics about Zazen, Zen, Buddhism & MORE ZAZEN!
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-11-2012, 09:11 PM
  2. SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Just This
    By Jundo in forum TALKS and TEACHINGS by JUNDO & TAIGU
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 11-06-2011, 06:16 PM
  3. SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO — EVEN AS
    By Jundo in forum TALKS and TEACHINGS by JUNDO & TAIGU
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-12-2010, 12:34 AM
  4. SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: WHAT WE THINK OTHERS THINK
    By Jundo in forum TALKS and TEACHINGS by JUNDO & TAIGU
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-06-2010, 05:25 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •