Originally Posted by Hoyu
You're getting upstaged! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Jen
Originally Posted by Hoyu
You're getting upstaged! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Jen
Gassho Jundo,
Myoku
Ok, that is officially the cutest girl in this sangha My special spider sense tells me that perhaps she's daddy's little girl. :mrgreen:
Dogen really, really confuses me. For the parts of the Shobogenzo I've read, I understand some of it. Then there's parts that go way, way over my head. I have no idea what he's getting at. So it's hard for me to tell if he's genius for those things that I don't understand because I don't assume someone is genius just because I don't understand what they are saying.
I'm not saying he's not genius though because the things that I do understand are really special. But I think I probably don't understand a lot of what he's saying because I haven't sat for long enough. I can't relate to the Dharma as deeply as he can because obviously I'm no Zen master. That's like asking a sophomore in college (or preschooler in my case. lol ) to understand a paper written by one of the world's foremost brain surgeons.
But there's also the barrier of the idioms used in his culture and our own. (You've touched upon this before ; I can't remember the post, but I believe rapping was involved ) In any case, the idioms of his language are so foreign to our own that that presents a barrier let alone when he starts getting crazy. For example, and I'm totally going to destroy this story, but just to exaggerate my confusion. hahahaha
He writes about when the cart won't move do you whip the ox or the cart? You need to whip the cart and the ox. the cart precedes the ox... It's like he takes every permutation of a sentence and expresses it on paper. And it loses me. I don't know the point.
Maybe that is the point. I wonder if he did that to prove a point that the Dharma is not to be found by someone else's answers? You're not going to find the Davinci code or any key here. Perhaps he did that to instill the sense of constant questioning and wonder in his students. I'm just speculating.
Gassho,
Risho
Hi,Originally Posted by Risho
The following is my "Guide to Getting Dogen", and please have a look and let me know if it helps. When I started hearing Dogen in such way the Shobogenzo and other works became clearer to the ear ... and really is very much like someone at first not "getting Coltrane's Jazz", but then later developing an ear for it and coming to appreciate the taste of the sound.
How to Read Dogen
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2999
Here is what John Coltrane did and undid, for example, with "MY FAVORITE THINGS", that really "squaresville" (though lovely in its own way) tune that you may recall from THE SOUND OF MUSIC ... give a listen to a few minutes of this ...
[youtube] [/youtube]
One has to realize that Dogen was engaging in a kind of word play ... playing with the words and Buddhist teachings. I have included a few examples at the above link from some scholars working on the Soto-shu sponsored "Soto Zen Text Project" which show how Dogen took original stories and Koans, terms and images from Buddhist sutras and the like and playfully "played around." A couple of years ago, someone (Richard, I recall) pointed out the modern master of "word jazz", Ken Nardine, sometimes heard on the public radio. Give a little listen there too.
http://www.wordjazz.com/podcast/index.php?id=5
From bending, straightening and rebending the "classics" and "standard tunes", new Facets of the One Jewel emerge.
Let us know if any of that helps.
Gassho, 'Chao Chao' and Leon's Dad
Hi all,
First of all thank you Jundo for giving your fresh perspective on Dogen.
On the subject of understanding Dogen. 10 years ago, when I tried to start my Zen practice I tried (of course) to read Dogen's Shobogenzo, but utterly failed to understand much. Then I bought this book "Rational Zen: The Mind of Dogen Zenji" by Thomas Cleary. There he takes a passage from Dogen and rewrites it in his own language, with commentaries and references, so that we can understand it. I really like reading it.
Fast forward 10 years and my second attempt at Zen practice. I found this book again in one of the still unpacked moving boxes full with books. I started reading it again. This time I find it that mere intellectual understanding of Dogen just doesn't do it for me anymore. I think that without underlying practice it is impossible to really understand what Dogen meant.
When I'm in the shower, sometimes this passage from Dogen comes to mind, I don't fully understand everything he says but what I understand is when you're really intimate with things, "water practices and verifies water" just somehow makes a lot of sense.
Water is neither strong nor weak, neither wet nor dry, neither moving nor still, neither cold nor hot, neither being nor nonbeing, neither delusion nor enlightenment. Frozen, it harder than diamond; who could break it? Melted, it is softer than milk; who could break it?
This being the case, we cannot doubt the many virtues realized [by water]. We should study the occasion when the water of the ten directions is seen in the ten directions. This is not a study only of the time when humans or gods see water: there is a study of water seeing water. Water practices and verifies water; hence, there is a study of water telling of water. We must bring to realization the road on which the self encounters the self; we must move back and forth along, and spring off from, the vital path on which the other studies and fully comprehends the other.
Thank you Jundo; the links are great. I'm going to read the books you suggest to get my feet wet then head into the Shobogenzo.
Gassho,
Risho
Jundo - thanks for this - though it's a formidable reading list.
Should keep me busy for the next few years by which time I'll be old !
Gassho
Willow
Rev Jundo, do you think it's better to read sutras and the different commentaries on the sutras first, and then Shobogenzo, or dig into Dogen first without prior sutra study?
Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi
Hmmmm. Ours is a "Way Beyond Words & Letters" ... but most of those old monks (Dogen certainly, coming out of years of training with the Tendai tradition) were already highly conversant with the main body of Mahayana Sutra literature (plus commentaries, the South Asian Suttas via the Agamas) and the like. Their Zen talks & writings ... especially in Dogen's case ... were so often playing off/bouncing with/a reaction to all that.
So, I will take a Middle Way here.
What I recommend in our "How to Read Dogen" thread is this ...
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2999
Some familiarity with the Koan Stories that Dogen often relied on is helpful. The "Book of Equanimity" which we will soon be reading, and the Blue Cliff Record, are the source (and Source 8) ) for most of those.Before reading and really 'digging Dogen', the best intro is to read Okumura Roshi's look at Genjo Koan ...
viewtopic.php?p=43761#p43761
Much denser, but worth the effort, are the two Dr. Kim books (He wrote them a few years apart, and changed interpretation slightly over the years just a drop ) ... Each can be rather heavy going at points, but worth it.
http://www.amazon.com/Eihei-Dogen-Mysti ... 011&sr=8-3
http://www.amazon.com/Dogen-Meditation- ... gy_b_img_b
Also ... I VERY strongly recommend... Visions of Awakening Space and Time: Dogen and the Lotus Sutra (Paperback) by Taigen Dan Leighton (Author) ... about how Dogen wild-ed and bent the already wild and bent Lotus Sutra into something even more bent and wild ...
http://www.amazon.com/Lotus-Sutra-Conte ... gy_b_img_b
You probably want to read a good translation of the Lotus Sutra first, to see the "tune" that Dogen was working with. This by Reeves is very readable and a fantastic tale, right up there with "Alice in Wonderland" and such ...
http://www.amazon.com/Lotus-Sutra-Conte ... 0861715713
In fact, you might start with Taigen and the Lotus Sutra --before-- reading Dr. Kim, as Taigen is short and easier going to read.
Here is an essay available online, a part of Taigen's book. It will give you a taste ...
http://www.mtsource.org/articles/dogen_lotsutra.html
I also always read two (or more) translations of a Shobogenzo section at once, for example, Tanahashi, Nishijima-Cross and (if possible, because it is not yet complete) Soto Zen Text Project ... The reason is that different translators phrase things in their own way, and (because Dogen was often working with double or triple entendres in his word-jazz) any translator struggles to capture that. Reading two at once helps to "triangulate" a bit what the original might be expressing in its classical Japanese (very different from modern Japanese, by the way). The Soto Zen Text Project is best (and Nishijima-Cross too) for its wonderful footnotes which trace down so many of the Sutra quotes, Koans, poems and the like that Dogen was playing as his "old standards". Nishijima-Cross is probably best for its "leave nothing out" precision. Tanahashi is best for his excellent poet's sensibility in writing style (very important in the case of Dogen, who was a true poet-wordsmith too).
Then ... just jump in, don't get lost in the head ... and let the music sink into the bones.
Gassho, J
Thanks!
Still reading Mysterious Realist by dr Kim! And Genjo Koan is great. Until now I have only read pieces of the Shobogenzo and I will get a little more grounding before I read through it all.
Hold on, you can't fool us; you've showed us your library :mrgreen:Originally Posted by Jundo
Also check out the "Beginner's Sutra Studies" thread which kind of distills the HUGE recommended reading list into a few core works to start with:Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3968&p=58389&hilit=beginner%27 s+sutra+studies#p58213
Hi,Originally Posted by Kaishin
Hmmm. I actually would say not, as that is quiet a hodge-podge of folks' Sutra and other reading in that thread. I would not recommend that to new people.
I would recommend that new people to Shikantaza read the starred ** items in this thread, even just go down the list of ** from the top.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=889&p=12001#p12001
I hope this year to expand that list, by the way, to include internet and magazine articles of merit. Ours is A Way Beyond Words and Letters, but Zen folks sure do write a lot! :shock: As long as one can see through and shining through the words ... and appreciate the wordless moments too ... then words themselves are not the problem.
Gassho, Jundo
Thanks very much for such a practical teaching.
Gassho
Ray
Dogen swings and shimmies!
Thanks Jundo.
Our daughter has been in hospital all this week very sick, with Sepsis (a major infection of the blood) compounded by influenza. The sepsis is responding very well to treatment, but it is serious because of her age and she is still a very sick little girl. She's had a spinal tap and been poked and prodded. However, things are stable, looking up from a couple of days ago, the doctors sound very optimistic now, and she is in very good hands here in the pediatrics ward. Here's GASSHO to all nurses, doctors and health care workers EVERYWHERE!
My wife takes the night shift to stay with her, and I take part of the day. We have little rest this week, we are both worried. Our son Leon is sick at home too. There is nothing about the situation to like, and so much potentially to lose. Our heads sometimes fill with worst case scenarios. (The expense mounts too, as we do not have any insurance yet for our daughter just come to Japan ... one more worry in this modern age). If this is but a dream, it seems like a very bad one. Yet, especially at such times, the Xin Xin Ming counsels this ...
Rest and unrest derive from illusion;
with enlightenment there is no liking and disliking.
All dualities come from ignorant inference.
They are like dreams of flowers in the air:
foolish to try to grasp them.
Gain and loss, right and wrong:
such thoughts must finally be abolished at once.
It sounds like something far removed from reality ... yet it is Reality, as True as True ... and precisely at hard times like this, the power of this Buddhist Way manifests! All is at Rest right in the heart of exhaustion, there is Peace shining through life's sharp pieces. There is nothing possible to lose, never the least separation, not even 'life and death' ... even as hearts are broken and there is so much to lose in this life!
All At Once As One.
I mean the following with all I have. It may sound a little cold and unemotional to some, but in its flesh is the worry and heartache of a father with a sick child, and at its center is the beating Heart of Kannon ...
Life is sometimes sickness and sometimes health. I know that human beings prefer only the healthy days ... but Buddhas have no such preferences.
The Buddha left us this, the Most Powerful Teaching ...
... That there is never any loss possible, no place distant for our loved one to go, something wondrous that transcends sickness and health, birth and death ... no broken pieces ever in need of repair from the start. The dualities arise from ignorance, and all is a dream-flower in the sky. Dropped away, and all is Whole in an Instant.
I know it hard to feel so, especially on the most difficult days ... but it is so.
One can be anxious and worried as a parent can and must be ... and wonderously, simultaneously, not disturbed at all, not fearful in the least. Strange, this Buddhist Wisdom, isn't it?
Today's sitting is silent, no more words need be spoken. Just sitting in the hospital room with our sick child. We sit here too, Zazen is sitting anywhere.
Thank you for all who have sent Metta and good feelings, and done much sitting this week. It is so good to have the company of kind friends at hard times. I am so glad to be part of this Sangha.
Today’s Sit-A-Long video follows at this link. Remember: recording ends soon after the beginning bells; a sitting time of 15 to 35 minutes is recommended
Last edited by Jundo; 04-26-2016 at 01:31 AM.
Gassho Jundo,
thank you for this teaching.
_()_
Myoku
get well litle girl
i'll be sitting for you,your brother,your mum & your dad
thX jundo
gassho
gilles
Completly with all of you.
With all my heart.
gassho
Taigu
_/_
_/_
Ron
Beautiful and powerful words of instruction in these difficult times.
Thank you very much, Jundo.
Metta
My wife is a pediatric ICU nurse...I don't know how she does it but I'm glad she does, as is anyone she cares for.
Thoughts and prayers for your little peanut's speedy recovery.
I will be sitting with your family. Much metta.
Gassho,
Chris
Through tearful eyes, hope springs.
With all sincerity, thank you.
Much love to Sada and you all.
Gassho,
Dokan
PS - Posted to podcast...maybe one of the most powerful yet.
Jundo,
Thank you for this teaching...any other words fail me right now...my thoughts are with you all.
Gassho,
Dosho
Know that your students are with you, Jundo.
Thank you Jundo,
for your honest teaching.
When everything grinds to a halt and it feels as if reality thickens, there is the proving ground of practice. We're with you all the way.
Take care of yourself and your family,
Pontus
Best wishes to you and your family! Glad to hear that things are improving.
_/_
Owndrum
_/_
Jundo, We are here for you in whatever various ways we can be. . . to rejoice and cry, even as we realize there is only One thing and all is included . . . striving to find the balance between wallowing in our feelings and being a "zen robot" (to quote a teacher I'm fond of).
Much love to you,
Eika
Hope your little one had a peaceful night and that this is the dawning of a better day.
Gassho
Willow
Much metta to Sada and your whole family Jundo _/_ .
Jundo,
Words fail me...please know we are with you and your family. Much love, peace, and rest to all of you.
_/_
Kelly/Jinmei
Jundo,
This is one of the most powerful teachings ever.
All my love and heart go out to little Sada, all children suffering in the universe, your family and you.
We are one. We are here for yo.
Thank you for this teaching, Jundo. Much metta to you and your family.
-Andrew
Hi everyone,
Today, Thursday morning, her fever is down and all is looking better. Yeah!
But, we don't become attached, and run after to clutch, good news either (though so tempting). We just take that as "what is" too ... rainy days just rainy, sunny days just sunny, crying days just crying, smiling days just smiling!
That will be the subject of our next Xin Xin Ming talk.
Gassho, Jundo
That´s ok, we have to accept things-as-they-are....... but anyway, hopefully this day will be a sunny one :wink:
_/_
The most impactful sit-a-long I've seen!
Gassho,
Hoyu
Thank you Jundo for this teaching. One of the basic principles of my training is, "It's OK to cry!"
I am awed and humbled by your ability to put energy into a Dharma Talk such as this during the direst of times a parent can bear.
Bless You, Mina-san, Sa-chan and Le-kun;
from my family to yours
I had tears reading your words while I nodded in agreement. It is amazing to have these two perspectives at the same time: acceptance and heart-felt concern. Maybe it's just holding the "two truths" in the heart simultaneously.
My sincere best wishes to you all over there.
Gassho
Myozan
_/|_
Jundo
I am sitting with you, your daughter and your family and the rest of the sanga will be as well.
Metta to you, your family including the treeleaf family.
Gassho
Ray
Jundo,
In this difficult time for you and your family the Buddhist teachings flow through you to us. Deep appreciation and much Metta. Gassho Shogen
Hi Guys,
She is coming home today, so wonderful how fast kids heal. They said she can just stay with oral medication for the next week, so no need for the hospital.
Yeah! I have a little sit-a-long about "Coming Home" :
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4649&p=69265#p69265
Gassho, J
Jundo,
I was so sorry to hear about your daughter's illness earlier this week. I am glad that things are on the uptake and that she will soon be comfortable in her own home.
It is good for me to read this today. I have been sitting as often as I can, but with great and needless strain and confusion. I have been rising prematurely from zazen. Maybe sitting for little sick children who don't care about how perfect my technique is will keep me on the cushion. Maybe it will be the image of watchful parents up all night that will help.Originally Posted by Jundo
Beautiful. May my understanding of the words become mute and may the understanding itself remain.Originally Posted by Jundo
Moi aussi.Originally Posted by Jundo
Our little daughter has come home from the hospital today, after we might have lost her just a week ago. HURRAH! HORRAY!! Mom and Dad are AS HAPPY AS HAPPY CAN BE!
Yet, just as a few days ago when things were dark and we were so sad, we still do not push any of life away, including happiness ...
... And neither do we run toward the days like this, clutching at happiness. Such is True Happiness, Equanimity and Contentment!
Equanimity does not mean that one should be emotionless! One can have one's DHARMA CAKE AND EAT IT TOO! Last time I wrote ...
Life is sometimes sickness and sometimes health. I know that human beings prefer only the healthy days ... but Buddhas have no such preferences.
However, that does not mean a Buddha can't enjoy a good celebration and the happy times too! One can be glad and joyous AND STILL BE wonderously, simultaneously not desirous at all, open to whatever life next brings! Strange, this Buddhist Wisdom, isn't it?
If the eye never sleeps,
all dreams will naturally cease.
If the mind makes no discriminations,
the ten thousand things are as they are, of single essence.
To understand the mystery of this One-essence
is to be release from all entanglements.
When all things are seen equally
the timeless Self-essence is reached.
No comparisons or analogies are possible
in this causeless, relationless state.
Today’s Sit-A-Long video follows at this link. Remember: recording ends soon after the beginning bells; a sitting time of 15 to 35 minutes is recommended
Last edited by Jundo; 04-26-2016 at 01:34 AM.
Glad to hear the happy news!
_/|_
Raf
Joyous!
Hope you and your family had a lovely party.
Gassho
Willow
Happy to see you happy, and to know your little girl is coming home.
This talk really gets to the heart of the struggle I've had with the meaning of Equanimity.
Thank you.
Gassho, Kojip.
Thank you for this teaching.
And I hope that party was happy and fun.
I am so glad things are getting better and that the baby is back home.