Tugas Gunadarma Gunadarma Tutorial VB.NET Download OST Anime Soundtrack Anime Opening Anime Ending Anime OST Anime Japan Download Lagu Anime Jepang

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 51 to 61 of 61

Thread: False Teachings

  1. #51

    Re: False Teachings

    I think the word 'false' may be problematic here, as it implies a dichotomy of true/false. Putting on my anthropologist hat for a minute (OK, it is hard for me to take it off), all religions and religious philosophies have a few things in common:
    -the core teachings or philosophies
    -a hermeneutic component, that has to do with how texts (including oral presentations) are interpreted
    -a subtextual component related to a shared culture among practitioners.

    Teasing these apart is difficult. The Christian denomination in which I was raised, for example, includes a directive to "love your neighbor," explicit rejections of homosexuals, and a overwhelming popular support of the idea of American exceptionalism. At different times and in different contexts, each of these may be part of the core, an interpretation of the texts of the religion, and/or a cultural common ground among members that is not directly referenced in the religion proper. So, to say that the teachings are 'true' or 'false' belies the complexity of reality in-the-moment.

    We each perceive the world, and our chosen path, through a veil of ego; we also communicate our understandings through a veil of ego. My current understanding is that, though that veil has no substance, it is also complicated by all our social and material ties.

    -Untei

  2. #52

    Re: False Teachings

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse

    Hey, that's great....do you believe he resurrected or that merely by believing in him you'll be reborn in a paradise? ...

    ... have to go out of your way to find similarities between Christianity and Zen.

    Chet
    Hi Chet,

    This view overlooks the actual way that Zen/Chan Buddhism is practiced by the vast vast majority of Zen/Chan Buddhists in Asia ... Japan, Korea, Vietnam and China ... both lay and priest. There, it is often coupled with (or is centered on) belief in a "god-like Buddha(s)" who will take you to be reborn in heaven just by faith in them ... plus also help one in this world too with family and business worries. I recently wrote a little about this during my trip to China ... The similarities and parallels between belief in and worship of Jesus as Messiah and Amida Buddha (or Maitreya, Shakyamuni) as Messiah are so close and remarkable that it leads me to surmise that both come from some place in the human brain, East or West, where people are "wired" to such beliefs ...

    viewtopic.php?p=65263#p65263

    In the West and in "convert Buddhism" (and especially at places like this Treeleaf Sangha) we may move away from some of that "old time religion" ... and be rather "modern" ("modern" does not always mean wiser) and skeptical on subjects like Rebirth, Cosmic Buddhas in the Sky, literal Buddha Heavens and Buddhist Hells ...

    viewtopic.php?p=12078#p12078

    ... just as many "modern" Christian theologians may seek to give a more skeptical and less literal interpretation to their religion. However, it may be (and I do not mean to sound like a snob in saying this) that the vast vast majority of people in the world ... Christian, Buddhist or any other religion ... need the magic and miracles, and what we do here would not suit them or their spiritual/psychological needs. Perhaps we are losing something important at places like Treeleaf which forsake such aspects of Zen and Buddhism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi
    While I find some of the practices of Rinzai very peculiar, like hitting people with a stick ...
    That is not just a Rinzai Practice. Although here at Treeleaf (and generally in the West), we omit the Keisaku(Kyosaku), or use it very lightly ... such is not the case in the "marine bootcamp" which is Japanese monastic training ... RInzai or Soto (the following may surprise you) ...

    viewtopic.php?p=23611#p23611

    Even in China, they carry a big stick ... such as at the 6th Ancestors Temple where I sat this month (they used it lightly there, but I am sure it is not always the case) ...



    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    ... I think that even deeply wise, enlightened even, teachers can still be very morally flawed and have a lot of weaknesses.
    I tend to agree with you, Chet. I think that when we act manifesting our Buddha Nature, free of greed, anger and ignorance, we are manifesting Buddha ... and when we (even the same person at another time) are trapped by greed, anger and ignorance, we are not. I have said (emphasis on "once in awhile" and not too BIG) ...


    I believe that the only "perfect" masters are those that may exist in the the pages of old Zen stories, written when the real folks were long dead, scrubbing them clean of every blemish and failing. In fact, if we might travel back in time to meet these fellows "in the flesh," we would find that each and every one was probably just "people" like you and me, with good points and (likely) a few rough edges and minor bad habits... like all people. Okay, maybe extra-ordinarily Wise and Compassionate and Enlightened, sure ... but people.

    Of course, "Enlightenment" is a realization that there is no place to fall, no self to stumble, no "mistake" that can ever be made. That is true. But it is just as true that there is no place to fall, no stumbling or possible mistake... even as we may fall and stumble and make mistakes!

    A few days ago, an excellent article by Lewis Richmond appeared here on SunSpace entitled "'What If?' Guidelines for Choosing a Buddhist teacher". I would really like to recommend that article to everyone. If I may add my own "test" for finding a teaching, I would say find a man or woman who sometimes falls down, makes mistakes, makes a donkey's ass of him or herself... and observe closely what happens, watch how he or she does it. Oh, don't get me wrong... probably you do not want as a teacher someone who falls down each and every day, nor someone who falls down too BIG (robbing banks, lying profusely and intentionally starting fires, for example). No, I mean someone who... every so often, now and then, like everyone... makes a fool of him/herself, loses his Zen Master cool, over-indulges, does a real face-flop, says something she regrets, breaks some (hopefully not too big) Precepts in some very human way.

    How does this person recover their balance? With what grace do they fall or, at least, get back up on their feet? Do they profoundly reflect on their mistakes, learn from them, apologize sincerely to anyone hurt (hopefully not too badly) ... and move on? As a matter of fact, since this crazy practice is greatly about living with some grace in this imperfect, often disappointing, trap and temptation filled world, a teacher with a couple of serious imperfections may be a good guide on how to avoid, lessen or escape the worst of it!

    ...

    All human beings have the tendency to fall down from time to time. I guess it is just a matter of what the person does then ... picking themselves up, recovering balance, getting back on the trail, apologizing and learning from any damage caused. Like any great athlete, the point is not that we never get knocked around, never trip or stumble ... but how we handle the fall (as in the martial arts ... there is no training offered on how to never fall, but endless training on how to fall well). Show me the man or woman who falls down sometimes ... but who demonstrates how to fall well and recover one's footing ... and I will show you a great Zen teacher.
    viewtopic.php?p=29575#p29575

    I believe that Genjo stepped over a line of ... again and again, for years ... hurting students, damaging his Sangha and commercializing teachings. That is why I, and many other teachers, have criticized his behavior ...

    http://www.tricycle.com/blog/zen-teache ... npo-merzel

    Gassho, J

    PS - Many Zen Teachers, past and present, have been irascible, blunt (with those who need bluntness), tough SOBs (Sons of Buddha) ... pussycats who sometimes know how to show their claws. This is true for me, Taigu, 1000 other examples, Dogen (a REAL hardass sometimes who could show his claws and teeth when needed) ...

  3. #53

    False Teachings

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    That is not just a Rinzai Practice. Although here at Treeleaf (and generally in the West), we omit the Keisaku(Kyosaku), or use it very lightly ... such is not the case in the "marine bootcamp" which is Japanese monastic training ... RInzai or Soto (the following may surprise you) ...

    viewtopic.php?p=23611#p23611
    Thank you Rev Jundo for the correction!

    Yes, I knew the Kyosaku was used in japanese Soto temples too, but I had got the impression that it was usually a milder "tap" on the shoulder and that in some or most Rinzai lineages, it is far more powerful, even violent. With "beating people with a stick" I meant the more extreme forms. But i realize now there are Soto lineages, such as Deshimaru, that apply the Kyosaku quite heavily, and there are probably many moderate Rinzai temples.

    I should not have generalized and I apologize for having done so. It is a very easy thing to do. Anyway, beating students senseless with a stick is not my cup of tea, regardless of tradition.

    Gassho,
    Pontus

  4. #54

    Re: False Teachings

    Hellos to all posting here!

    On the subject of the kyosaku...
    Just yesterday while on retrat (Chan group) I asked to receive the kyosaku (I don't know the name of it in Chinese--it was a silent retreat and no place or time for conversation--but I will find out later)
    All i knew was that i needed it, i asked for it, and the monastic teacher leading the retreat kindly administered.

    Giver and receiver

    As with pretty much everything, speculation is speculation
    Experience -- not as straight forward as one might suppose:
    Due to one's history, associations, expectations, prejudices,
    emotional state at the time, interpretation, etc.

    I have been on the receiving end of the keisaku ('compassion stick--rinzai) and kyosaku (awakening stick--soto)
    There is the giver through whose body intention is transmitted into action.

    Somewhere here in the forums I vaguely remember writing about this before.

    I can say this: it is an aid to practice which I hope does not fall away through disuse (or abuse)

    My shoulders are immediately relieved of their chronic pain, it feels like tiger balm : warm and tingly,
    my sitting feels refreshed: like a pillow 'plumping'

    There are all the ideas about it and it.

  5. #55

    Re: False Teachings

    You mentioned how people get disappointed if they are following a strain of commercialised zen when they realise their is nothing to attain. But that disappointment can turn out to be a good thing for them because that is when their practice can really start. Once they realise their is nothing to attain.

    Gassho

    Ray



    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Quote Originally Posted by kirkmc
    Ithi just glanced at the post in question. I think the thing that bothers you - and me as well - is the blatant commercialization of something that has traditionally been offered for free (donation accepted). Trademarking the infinite is certainly commercial, and I know that there has been a dispute in the yoga world in recent years about someone who tried to trademark or copyright asanas (yoga positions).
    The
    Commercialization (money surrounding it) doesn't bother me as much as commoditization (Zen as a thing you buy). Zen isn't something owned. I'm not offended because I think Zen is sacred, it really isn't (and yet is...blah) - it's because approaching it with any sort of attaining mentality just gives you a pretty new philosophy or 'cool shit I do that makes me interesting' sort of thing. Zen as a hobby. And the trappings of Zen ARE a hobby, the zafus, the accoutrements of the practice, the timers, hell - even the teachings and the collection of the teachings. But actual Shikantaza is a gift that releases you from that.

    People seem to come to Zen for something and are disappointed when they don't find it. The lucky stick around to see what they actually do find, I think. Either way, it can't be sold. It doesn't really offend me when people try, but it makes me feel funny.

    Chet

  6. #56

    Re: False Teachings

    Many useful observations and insights shared here. I think Stephanie raises some interesting points, concerning our tendency to push away or judge as "wrong" that which makes us uncomfortable, or what we perceive as harmful. How do you develop a mind that embraces and accepts all facets of life yet is not pulled toward paths or activities that may harm oneself and others and create suffering? For me that's what wise teachings are all about, and they can be found in all spiritual traditions.

    Taigu shared this in another thread, concerning the teaching of the rain:

    "... rain, Buddha nature is always with us, no need to hurry up, when it rains, it is Buddha rain. Rain is not separated from us. The problem comes from the fact that when it rains, we think it rains, « it » being something different from what we are. On one side, there is rain, on the other, there is me. From the Buddha’s perspective, there is just a moment and it is called rain, and it includes everything, including myself, here and now. Pouring down, Buddha rain, Bright sun, Buddha sun. When it rains cats and dogs, Buddha cats, Buddha dogs ! And everyday I find myself rushing under the rain, not only the rain made of water, cats and dogs, but also the rain made of work, relationships, difficulties and joy... The point is not to think we should, or should not do this and that. The point is pointless, just enjoy your life and welcome every moment as it comes. Rain is everywhere means that the path is the goal.

    ... Being Buddha is accepting things as they are, if sadness comes, sad Buddha, if joy comes, joyful Buddha, if rain comes, soaked Buddha. No need to hurry up. No need to pretend or escape. Ordinary life, everyday life is Buddha. When Dôgen says that ordinary people are deluded about enlightenment, and Buddha enlightened about their delusions, he literally means that : enlightening our illusion, moment after moment, realising Buddha within our simple and daily life. Being aware of how much we hurry up in the rain. When we sit, we are enlightened about our delusions, for rather than being the thoughts in our mind and tensions in our body, identifying ourselves to the flow of illusions, we see it, we notice it without judging. The mind that does not judge or discriminate is Buddha mind."
    If he's right then to pass judgment on other people, paths, teachings is a kind of delusion, because we don't recognize these as aspects of our greater Self, the great flow of life, where there is no separation between this and that, self and other. At the same time, to identify with our predatory side or with a deluded view of ourselves is also creating waves of separation where they need not be.

    In the present stillness, anchored in the here and now, the view of this/that and self/other falls away. In that moment, with our hearts and minds open, there seems to arise greater clarity.

  7. #57

    Re: False Teachings

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray
    You mentioned how people get disappointed if they are following a strain of commercialised zen when they realise their is nothing to attain.]
    The commercialized Zen I've encountered sells a facile two dimensional version of "nothing to attain", where sprinkling non-dual fairy dust on everything and saying "nothing to attain" is called realization. Sometimes maybe a bit of attainment is good too.

  8. #58

    Re: False Teachings

    Quote Originally Posted by christopher]For me that's what wise teachings are all about, and they can be found in all spiritual traditions.[/quote]

    Hi Chris,

    I agree that wise teachings can be found in all spiritual traditions. Yet here we practice the Way of Non-Seeking that is [i]Shikantaza[/i].

    I know many traditions that promise something if we look for something: God, Brahma, Buddha, Sex, Money, Drug Highs, one thing or another ...

    I know few that promise Everything by Dropping --- to-the-marrow --- the mad chase.

    [quote="Kojip
    ... a facile two dimensional version of "nothing to attain", where sprinkling non-dual fairy dust on everything and saying "nothing to attain" is called realization. Sometimes maybe a bit of attainment is good too.
    The radical attaining of "Nothing to Attain" is the Ultimate Attainment. However, "nothing to attain" does not mean there is nothing to attain. Rather, 'tis "No Thing to Attain" in either attaining or not attaining, moving forward step by step and standing still as fully the Constant Arrival. The Way of Non-Seeking, All Treasure Found.

    Such is What's What Here There and Everywhere In Between ... Buddha Nature

    Gassho, Jundo

  9. #59
    Senior Member kirkmc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Near Stratford-upon-Avon, England
    Posts
    911

    Re: False Teachings

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    The radical attaining of "Nothing to Attain" is the Ultimate Attainment. However, "nothing to attain" does not mean there is nothing to attain. Rather, 'tis "No Thing to Attain" in either attaining or not attaining, moving forward step by step and standing still as fully the Constant Arrival.

    Such is What's What Here There and Everywhere In Between ... Buddha Nature
    Sometimes you make my brain hurt. :-)

  10. #60

    Re: False Teachings

    Quote Originally Posted by kirkmc

    Sometimes you make my brain hurt. :-)
    That's in my job description. 8)

  11. #61

    Re: False Teachings


    The radical attaining of "Nothing to Attain" is the Ultimate Attainment. However, "nothing to attain" does not mean there is nothing to attain. Rather, 'tis "No Thing to Attain" in either attaining or not attaining, moving forward step by step and standing still as fully the Constant Arrival. The Way of Non-Seeking, All Treasure Found.

    Such is What's What Here There and Everywhere In Between ... Buddha Nature

    Gassho, Jundo
    Treeleaf is a keeper. That's what this brain is thinking. Gassho, Jundo.

Similar Threads

  1. False Expectation of Zen Practice?
    By Madrone in forum TREELEAF COMMUNITY: Topics about Zazen, Zen, Buddhism & MORE ZAZEN!
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 04-25-2012, 02:11 PM
  2. Special Teachings Forum?
    By Grizzly in forum TREELEAF COMMUNITY: Topics about Zazen, Zen, Buddhism & MORE ZAZEN!
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 10-01-2010, 04:55 PM
  3. Cryptic Zen Teachings
    By CraigfromAz in forum TREELEAF COMMUNITY: Topics about Zazen, Zen, Buddhism & MORE ZAZEN!
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-23-2010, 04:31 AM
  4. 11/9-16-Relationship Not Each Other/True Suffering and False
    By Jundo in forum "BEYOND WORDS & LETTERS" BOOK CLUB
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 11-24-2007, 01:15 PM
  5. 9/21 - False Fear p.64
    By Jundo in forum "BEYOND WORDS & LETTERS" BOOK CLUB
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 09-25-2007, 05:56 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •