Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 57

Thread: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

  1. #1

    POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Quote Originally Posted by praxis
    Dear Jundo,

    Yes, I admit, everything you say is true and I apologize for lying to your community.

    I'm still curiouse about those blogs though, would you mind posting links? If nothing else it would help to show your community the depth of my depravity.
    Okay, I have given up trying to figure out what is going on, I have information that you may not be on the up and up, and you do not contact me to confirm your identity. You also asked many seemingly sincere and legitimate questions, but seemed to ignore the attempted responses in favor of some kind of mud stirring for mud stirring's sake. I am considering that I have to suspend your membership here.

    The way we do this at Treeleaf is in the most democratic way we can, by opening the subject up right here in the open forum. You are free to speak, have folks speak for you ... and also any and all members are free to provide input and comment, pro or con. (I know that you think that the entire forum is a "lynch mob", but that is the best way we can keep things out in the sunshine.). After a couple of days of discussion, Taigu and I will decide (because we are the teachers here, and have ultimate say) based on the consensus of the community.

    In the meantime, I also ask you to limit your comments and participation to this one thread pending a decision on this matter.

    As I mentioned, if you have any problem with the process, we have an Ethics Committee in place, and you are free to contact any or all members if you have some complaint.

    viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2818

    I am very sorry for this, but it strikes many of us that you are just playing games. This is maybe the 3rd or 4th time something like this has happened in our 5 years here. This is a place to practice and learn, and Taigu and I have a duty to maintaining that purpose. Still, it is sad any time.

    Gassho, Jundo

  2. #2

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    i'm just in,
    but
    the only thing i can say,
    if i may
    without attacking anyone.

    There is a list of rules in here
    that I had to read yesterday as newcommer
    It tells what is possible and not
    if we can see what was ok or not ok by those rules
    and so you can decide.

    why we have these rules otherwise?
    hopefully it is usefull

  3. #3

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Quote Originally Posted by praxis
    Dear Jundo,

    Yes, I admit, everything you say is true and I apologize for lying to your community.

    I'm still curiouse about those blogs though, would you mind posting links? If nothing else it would help to show your community the depth of my depravity.

    I am very sorry for this, but it strikes many of us that you are just playing games.
    As much as I tried to stay out of these topics and be impartial, I have to agree with this statement. Judging by Praxis's the latest comments I have to question his intentions of sincere Zen practice which is the main purpose of this site. Yes, this is democracy and everyone is entitled to his/her opinion but Jundo and Taigu are doing this for free, spending their time giving the teaching. I don't think they have to deal with empty accusations, which take up a lot of valuable time and attention.

  4. #4
    Treeleaf Unsui Shokai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sarnia, Ontario Canada
    Posts
    2,048
    Blog Entries
    119

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    With all due respect and without prejudice, I would whole heartedly second this motion.
    I have just spent the past two hours reviewing recent and older posts and which confirm a consensus that this is a Sangha where members come to learn and grow, not a discussion forum in where individuals play mind games or practice deceit.


    On Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:54 am Praxis wrote;
    Hello all, I'm your newest member! Well, maybe not depending on when you read this post.

    Anyway, I've been interest in Zen for many years, since junior college when I read Siddhartha for a civilizations class. But enough about German romanticists, I've practiced for about 2 months in an actual brick and mortar Zen temple in LA, the Hungry Ghost Temple of the Hakuyu Taizan Maezumi Roshi lineage. They brag of a high attrition rate there and I proved useful to that right. So here I am!

    As suggested by Jundo I just finished with part 1 of the Zazen for Beginners - Zazen for Beginners. What a delight, the blender action was no less than masterful. Funny but also to good effect. Not sure how long it will take me to get through the whole series.

    Nice virtually meeting you. _/_

    User avatar
    praxis

    Posts: 60
    Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:14 pm
    Perhaps we should all have looked up the word "praxis" @ Wikipedia http://bit.ly/ZQN0U from where I suspect his misguided actions have spawned; It may have twigged us to some of his shenanigans

    Anyone who has admittedly conducted himself in the manner we see in his 60 posts to date is not being true to himself and perhaps we should all get out and polish up our our metta practice in his direction.

  5. #5

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    When we ask a question, we are essentially showing that there is something we do not know. It’s a very humbling thing to do, to go up to someone and ask. Yet, to ask a question means we do not have an answer. So when the teacher gives us an answer, we should take it and sit with it. Not accept it blindly, not believe it just because the teacher said it, but to sit with it and see if our experience confirms it or not.

    Buddha said:
    “Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
    If we get an answer and say; “no, that can’t be right” or “no I think it is this” then were we even asking a question to begin with? Were we asking a question, or looking for a confirmation to an idea we were already holding?

    To paraphrase what someone wise once said:
    One doesn’t need to look for answers, one needs to simply understand the questions.
    I think a lot of good discussion came out from the Praxis' forums. At the same time, a lot of running in circles as well. I am not in a position to say who should stay and who should go. But I do feel that as a Sangha, the harmony and overall integrity should be preserved, otherwise we will become just another Buddhist forum.

    Deep Metta to all.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Nindo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    687

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Jundo, I'd like to see those "other blogs", and the forum that started all of this. Where are they, please?

  7. #7
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Rochester, NY, USA
    Posts
    4,684

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Hi all,

    Based on the response that Praxis gave to Jundo which began this thread, I cannot tell if Praxis still wishes to be a member of this community. If he does, I would simply request that he tell us why he would wish to remain. When he came here I found him to be a sincere new member who introduced himself, posted on various threads, and even committed to Ango practice. However, once he posted the thread on criticism, it seemed to become his sole outlet and I am curious as to why.

    I would rather not kick anyone out of Treeleaf and would sincerely like to give Praxis the opportunity to say why he'd like to be a member of this sangha. However, if he does not then I truly wish him well and hope that he finds what he is looking for elsewhere.

    Gassho,
    Dosho

  8. #8

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Don't really know how much my opinion is worth being more a hermit than a full member, therefore I will abstain from the vote. However, I would like to submit that Praxis be given one final opportunity to speak openly and honestly and that all the information regarding this incident be made known to the membership.

    ~Rod

  9. #9
    Treeleaf Unsui Shokai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sarnia, Ontario Canada
    Posts
    2,048
    Blog Entries
    119

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    I must apologize if I conveyed the idea that I agree with a "throw the bum out" type of action. I was merely seconding the action stated in the title of this thread. I fully endorse the policy laid out in the Ethics Board complaint thread referenced by Jundo. I donnot agree that Praxis should be dismissed without due process. However, I do feel he owes this Sangha full disclosure of his actions and some form of atonement.

    Raphael wrote (and I agree);
    I am not in a position to say who should stay and who should go. But I do feel that as a Sangha, the harmony and overall integrity should be preserved, otherwise we will become just another Buddhist forum.
    and this is the sentiment that showed in all of the posts I reviewed earlier this morning

  10. #10

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Hello,

    I'm just trying to sum up my own thoughts right now.

    Internet communication has a lot of PROs and CONS, advantages and disadvantages...as we all know and can experience first hand through the current "circumstances". Personally I still have absolutely no clarity as to what this whole situation is all about. On the one hand there are loads of things one could intepret in certain ways based on the way Praxis has been writing his posts...however those interpretations could all be dead wrong.

    I just never got the "vibe" from Praxis that he was seriously considering joining the Treeleaf Sangha. The fact that membership of Treeleaf is a bit of a grey area (where does the forum stop...where does the Sangha begin...other than in one's heart?) doesn't necessarily help.

    Personally I was/am under the impression that Praxis simply seems to think that Jundo's take on the precepts and some past interactions of Jundo's on some forums are a major point worthy of extreme criticism, but instead of just saying this straight out loud, a pseudo discussion was initiated with the aim to make some kind of point.

    And yes, my reading of this situation could well be wrong and completely off the mark. Praxis being such an anonymous presence surely doesn't help, because otherwise I could have seen that question within a wider context of a Treeleaf member's personality.

    It just feels like someone just urinated into a pool that that person never had the intention of using as his own pool anyhow. A pool can be calm, there can be waves, water splashing etc. - any sangha has ups and downs, and yes lo and behold, people even disagree on the Treeleaf forum from time to time. But Treeleaf is more than just a forum , it is a sangha, and therefore people (including me) naturally would like to keep their place of refuge a harmonious one at the end of the day, which doesn't mean one would be justified to put these same people in the same class of people as a "lynch mob".

    Pseudo-discussions filled with hints of innuendo and cross postings on other forums do not help. And guess what Praxis, we've all known that Jundo was a human being for a long time. If you have a message, please just state it clearly, than all of us adults can individually make an informed decision and act accordingly. If you just have an issue with Jundo, just send him a PM please.

    No, I wouldn't throw you out yet, but I'd advise you to search for your true inner motivation behind all this.

    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen

  11. #11

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Quote Originally Posted by praxis
    Quote Originally Posted by Shokai
    However, I do feel he owes this Sangha full disclosure of his actions and some form of atonement.
    Shokai,

    I've just posted this morning in the 'criticism' topic to try and clear up any remaining misunderstandings.

    I've actually considered some kind of meaningful atonement this morning but I'm not sure what is practical. If anyone has any suggestions please post them. Maybe sending incense or something to Jundo & Taigu's temple in Japan?
    You have already started to atone.

    To atone, to ask for forgiveness, has nothing to do, essentially with another person forgiving you or not. It has to do, fundamentally, on whether or not you can forgive yourself, accept yourself, and move on from there.

  12. #12

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Hi Praxis. My name is Chris Amirault. You can read a lot more about me here.

    I agree with Rev R and Dosho; I want to hear more from you. I've moderated internet forums for a very long time, and I know enough to know that I have no idea who you are based on 60-odd posts and a cartoon fly.

    So, to that end, I urge you to rethink this atonement business. Instead, I invite you to:

    -- tell us who you are, real name, all that;
    -- participate in a collaborative, sharing manner in the forums;
    -- reflect back to the community on what happened; and
    -- sit with it, and us, all.

    Frankly, I think that you have a lot to teach us if you're game to join. Around here, we tend to assume that we all have a lot to teach each other. It's unlikely, however, that we'd be able to learn from you unless you could approach us with the same attitude. Believe me, there are many thoughtful, compassionate teachers here.

    One final thought. Despite what you may have thought when you joined, you've entered a pretty self-reflective community, and that includes the two teachers here. I'd urge you to watch some of the videos by Taigu and Jundo for ample evidence. Of course, like the rest of us, they have their human foibles. As someone who has engaged directly with the teachers about some of the issues you raised, I've deepened my commitment to the sangha here and to the teachers as well as a result of those engagements.

    I've learned not to judge my occasional missteps as indications of fundamental flaws in myself or my self, and I try to do the same concerning the missteps of others. It takes some sitting, though, I'll tell you that. Many of us are part of a google+ group that sits zazen via the hangout feature, and I encourage you to join and grab a zafu with us.

    So, in short, I'm eager to hear more from you, Praxis. If you choose to buzz off -- -- I wish you well and hope that you find some way to interact with others that's less deceitful and manipulative. If you choose to stay, well then:

    Welcome!

  13. #13
    Treeleaf Unsui Shokai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sarnia, Ontario Canada
    Posts
    2,048
    Blog Entries
    119

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Exactly, full disclosure _/_




    p.s. Chris? really!! to buzz off -- -- :lol: :lol:

  14. #14

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    C'mon: I couldn't resist!

    I confess that, at times, this has reminded me of that great video in which the Dalai Lama explains what he'd do with a mosquito:

    [youtube] [/youtube]

  15. #15
    Senior Member Hoyu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,024

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    I think I've already made my feelings clear on this one. And with his own admission of guilt in his testimony as given here:
    praxis wrote:
    Yes, I admit, everything you say is true and I apologize for lying to your community.
    I say, case closed!
    Now where is that gavel?...........

    Found it!
    Quote Originally Posted by praxis
    :wink:

  16. #16
    Senior Member Ekai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Southeastern Wisconsin
    Posts
    570

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Due to my crazy schedule, I have not had time to follow what has been going on with Praxis. I will read through the forum and post my input soon.

    Thanks,
    Jodi

  17. #17
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Mexico
    Posts
    2,492

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    I think Praxis has caused a lot of distress as it is.

    He has had a lot of chances to cool himself up and catch with the humane and metta spirit of Treeleaf, but instead he has been aggressive and plain rude. We all have been affected by his behavior.

    With that said, I think he deserves a chance. Just one.

    If he wants to be part of the sangha, he must accept the etiquette and rules we have and have constructive and skillful conversations. If he fails to comply, well, I think he might be happier on some other community.

    We are here to learn and grow and he has given us a chance to learn from him. It's only fair to give him a chance to learn too.

    But that's just me.

  18. #18

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    I agree with Dosho and Chris. Show sincerity, willingness to stay and some disclosure as to who you are - if not to us then to Jundo or Taigu

  19. #19

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    What or who here do you see needs reforming, Praxis? What is the ointment in which you so insistently must be the fly?

  20. #20

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Well, I'd suggest it's the first, and not the last, step. Again, I invite you to sit with, share among, and get to know us.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Hoyu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,024

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Quote Originally Posted by praxis
    Atonement is the only thing left for me to do here, Chris.
    That's not nessicarily so Praxis. People are asking, and have been for some time(!) for you to show your sincerity by explaining who you are and why you want to be a member here. By saying atonement is the only thing you need to do here implies that you don't feel peoples other requests are wothwile actions. Please don't take this as an attack I'm just confused?

  22. #22

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Hi,

    Allow me a side issue ...

    Our Sangha always handles issues like this out in the open, and lets the sunshine in on the decision making process. Let me tell you one reason it is very important to do so:

    There are people in certain corners of the Buddhist-blogosphere who really hate this Treeleaf place, me and Taigu. It is hard for me to fathom why they hate this place and us so much, but it seems that such is the nature of some people ... even some Buddhist people. There is, unbelievably, a certain group of "Buddhists" out there who have congregated around the blog of my Dharma Brother Brad and his "punk" persona, and take advantage of the fact that he never moderates his blog. They really really do not care for Treeleaf, Taigu and me, and regularly take shots at us or even start rumors and trouble. Why?

    Well, one reason is that, until a couple of years ago, I had the tendency to go out into the internet world and confront this group of folks anytime they said something untrue about this place or Taigu and me, which just stirred them up more and made it worse like gas on a fire! I don't get why or how they can be so "angry" and be "Buddhists", but they are ... and they think that any soft spoken, "let's be peaceful" type Buddhists are fake. They say that Treeleaf is fake. Some also carry resentments because they think I was disloyal to Nishijima Roshi and Brad when I started speaking out a few years ago on some issues in our Sangha including 93 year old Nishijima Roshi's increasingly obvious age related dementia, and criticized Brad for some of his questionable behavior a few years ago (Brad has since settled down a lot). There were some other events too.

    Anyway, to give you an example, the last time we had to ask a member to leave (that was "Chet" in an earlier incarnation ... not the Chet we know now ... always temporary, and he was having personal problems. We made sure he knew at the time that he was welcome to come back, and he did come back!), one very malicious fellow on the internet tried to make a scandal out of it about Treeleaf "censorship" and booting out members who dissented from Taigu and my reign of terror. I made the mistake of going to "reason" :roll: with the fellow. You can read that whole thing here.

    http://rebloggingbradwarner.blogspot.co ... r-for.html

    As you read on in there, the fellow admits that he writes to make a big splash because he has some personal issues in his life and it helps him relieve that stress, that he knows he muckrakes and exaggerates, that he is proud to have the nickname "the Zen Glenn Beck" etc. Further, maybe half of our current Treeleaf members were also members then and personally witnessed the events about "Chet", so will know the true story. (I hope our other members who came after have been around Treeleaf long enough to see how ridiculous the descriptions of us are compared to the Treeleaf they know, just tripe and fish wrappings trying to make a scandal).

    Of course, when one gets down in the mud with hogs, one will tend to get muddy oneself. In the course of trying to argue with the fellow, I made four mistakes:

    (1) I tried to argue with the fellow at all, and with the other "Treeleaf Bashers" there, and I let it go on for maybe 3 or 4 days I think; that was dumb;

    (2) Because 3/4ths or more of the bashers on the blog were posting anonymously, as you can see, I also decided to take some anonymous shots back [after being anonymously attacked for 3 or 4 days myself]; that was dumb

    (3) At one point, several days into this, I tried to respond to comments about what a bunch of "goody two-shoes" we are at Treeleaf, and that I was guilty of calling someone a "pipsqueek" by making a couple of posts in which I said that calling someone a "pipsqueek or like words" is not the same as calling someone a "m--th=rf=ck=r" "c-ck-s-ck-r" and a string of like salty words (with the vowels ops: )! Now, this bunch of "honest" fellows likes to sometimes pull out the "m--th=rf=ck=r" "c-ck-s-ck-r" words, completely leave out the context in which they were said in comparison to "goody two-shoes" ... thus making it sound like I was just insulting someone. In truth, they are not completely wrong either ... because by that time, I was so hot under the collar with those liars, that I did take great enjoyment in saying the words. I got too upset, even though I was just trying to "make a point". However, they love to quote the thing and leave out the context.

    (4) Likewise, I tried to make a similar point about how the scandal monger (and another fellow on the thread) should not print scandalous rumors based on mysterious "sources" by sarcastically trying to show them how I could make up a fake "scandal" about THEM. Unfortunately, the example "scandal" I made was about the monger giving the other fellow "the clap" through anal sex, and (oh my) ... was in EXTREME BAD TASTE :| (it also made 'jest', in my mind, of a tendency of the folks on that blog to call each other with the discriminatory word "butt buddies" as an insult. In my attempt to make fun of people using discriminatory language and creating rumors ... I made an example rumor that unfortunately had to contain the same kind of discriminatory language as an example). Needless to say, the same fellows like to take the tasteless story, strip it of the rest of the paragraph and context in which I am making it clear that it is an example of making baseless rumors, and quote it so that it sounds like I am saying an offensive. sexist, homophobe, angry insult to someone. As stupid as my "example" was, their actions are inexcusable in doing that.

    Now, this same group of individuals is having a poke at Treeleaf again based on these events with Praxis. It is unbelievable. Furthermore, they may or may not be directly connected to this "Praxis" put up (that is yet to be determined). However, that is one reason that I am very very determined to keep this process open, in the sunshine and with participation by all. They are just waiting (as a matter of fact, they have already started) to turn this into the same kind of scandal that they did with the "Chet" incident. (Chet, by the way, is cool with us here honestly talking about that time in his life too).

    If you would like to see some examples of the absolute lunacy and frequent hate direct at this place, Taigu and me (and, too often, you guys too), have a look here ... We have no secrets in this Sangha ... It starts about 13 posts down with a post by a fellow called "anon 108" (who justifies such "Angry Buddhism") and continues for another 150 or so posts ... a large part directed at us.

    http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID ... 1056434810

    Also, the "Extreme Bad Taste" post is among those all in BOLD about 30 down from the top at the above link.

    And, yes, I have received some information from someone that Praxis is connected to this same group. Praxis, if you say it is not so, I will accept that however.

    I do not know why Brad let's it run away like that, even though I appreciate that he is trying to keep freedom there. If you have any questions about what you read, let me know. People are people, and sometimes it is not so pretty. And some of these folks are Buddhists.

    Gassho, J

    PS - Here are a couple of highlights from the day before ...

    Anonymous said...
    That AlanLa guy is a knob.

    I used to browse Treeleaf quite a bit and was always struck by what a fool that guy is. I'm from Texas, as is AlanLa, and I get a kick out the thought of that clown running around the east Texas shitsville he lives in, acting like an evolved holy man.

    What a fucking tool that guy is.

    Uh...... I now atone what I just wrote.
    Anonymous said...
    Dear God. I had gone away from browsing Treeleaf's forum. Now that it got brought up, I've taken a quick run-through over there.

    That "Taigu" guy posted the following: "A simple glass of water or the sun in the curtains have much more to teach us that the endless twisted paths of the mind."

    And the acolytes are falling all over themselves in the mad rush to post "THANK YOU FOR THIS TEACHING" to the guy. Jesus H, lol. "Thank you for this teaching, Taigu." Bwahahaha.

    What a trip that place is.

    If they can call that cyber-shit Buddhism, Brad, I don't see why you can't give some hybrid talk/sits and call them whatever you like. Go for it, my friend.
    Trying Too Hard said...
    Calling out Taigu is kind of like saying you'll fight the fat kid's retarded brother, eh?
    Praxis Fan said...
    It's just nauseating to read Jundo going on about gentle and kind speech, given his history of tirades, insults, passive aggression, sock-monkey postings, etc. Of course he would never even hint that he may have been guilty of any of these things amongst his Treeleafers. As usual, he merely states that he may have offered an unkind word once or twice in the past somewhere, citing some trivial example whilst completely ignoring the vile stuff many of us have seen here, on ZFI, on Treeleaf itself, and of course, most devastatingly on rebloggingbradwarner.blogspot.com. It's really disingenuous, and it's good to see people like Praxis calling him out on it.
    http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID ... 8403739209

  23. #23
    Senior Member rculver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati Ohio Area (Northern Kentucky)
    Posts
    1,623

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    What to do.... What to do....

    Not particularly helpful to practice.... Not particularly harmful either....

    Squash the fly or ignore it until it loses interest and wanders off on it's own....

    Ultimately, I decide which posts to read and which to react to.

    Sorry, I'm on the fence on this one.

    Ron

    (Edit: I hadn't read Jundo's post before my post - IF Praxis is one of those mentioned, he should be let go. But, how to know? Perhaps a bit more openness on his part as to Why he is interested in being here in the first place?)

  24. #24

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Quote Originally Posted by praxis
    For the record, none of my posts have been deleted and I don't feel in any way silenced or whatever. As I wrote earlier in this topic, I'm totally cool with being banned, because of low impulse control (I'm working on it!) issues. I'm now thinking it might also provide some comfort to some of the members here if I were banned.

    Also for the record, I was interested in joining Treeleaf in all aspects, even volunteered my services for the current site redevelopment. Let's just say I discovered that Treeleaf is not right for me. NO INNUENDOES!!! :P
    Dear Praxis,

    Fair enough, and you seem like you are wrestling with some things in your life right now. If you get them worked out, and if you ever decide Treeleaf is right for you after all (It may never turn out to be! ), you are welcome back. Please keep sitting, wherever.

    Gassho, J

  25. #25

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Hmm. U mad Bro?
    Looks like someones been feeding the trolls.

    How to decapitate a troll
    Sadly most trolls are hostile, not funny. When dealing with these ugly beasts, the most important thing to remember is: DO NOT ENGAGE.

    Like the Emperor Palpatine, a troll gains power every time you express anger or hatred. No matter how offensive they become, don’t give trolls the attention they are craving. If you studiously ignore them they will soon move on.
    I think I am the individual who thanked Taigu and got dissed. So be it, two shits aint yet been given. All of you know my real life are aware where I am coming from - Life is short, do not squander it idly. So diss me all you want, Life goes on unfettered. You know the one about the monk who carried the girl across the river (against the precepts) and reminded down the road by his fellow monk....

    The younger of the two monks hesitated as they were not supposed to have any physical contact with women. The older monk gently motioned the woman onto his back and proceeded to help the woman across the river. Upon reaching the other bank of the river, the woman got down, thanked the monks and went away.

    As the monks continued their journey, the younger monk became increasingly agitated and finally spoke out, "Brother, you know we are not permitted to have any contact with women, how could you carry that woman on your shoulders?"

    The older monk looked at him and softly replied, "You are right, I did carry that woman. But I have already put her down many hours ago after we crossed the river. Why are you still carrying her?"
    Srsly, just let it go. Once it becomes clear to you that a thread is in troll territory stop typing and let it go. As far as Praxis is concerned, sometimes it is better in the long run to show someone the door. You know acts having consequences. If at some point the real person with a real name and history willing to share shows up, we would have long ago let bygones be bygones.

    Ne?

    _()_ Louis

    ps Not all bad news as it brought the Rev out from his hermitage... Hey there Rev!

  26. #26
    Senior Member Nindo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    687

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    I'm sorry, I cannot hear one word of sincerity from praxis. Now that he takes that guy's words into his mouth, I suppose he will resurrect himself in some shape or form, too, after this sock puppet has been banned.

  27. #27

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Frankly, I think this has been made much bigger than it ever needed to be.

    Praxis has this place spinning around in circles and we appear to be letting him. He seems to be doing everything he can to get banned- to see if that will actually happen, as if getting banned will somehow prove his point.

  28. #28

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Go, stay...meh.

    If Praxis leaves then things will be OK...if he doesn't things will also be OK. I tried to look on ZFI to see if this is just his online demeanor and only found a guy who changed names a few times because of some drama.

    I still go back to my original comments ... nothing to see here...back to Ango.

    There's a common forum saying of "don't feed the trolls". Anytime I come across a thread that seems antagonistic and without sincerity I just move along...time is swiftly passing by, no time to waste on this stuff.

    So to reiterate, really doesn't matter to me if he goes or stays. Either way I am OK with it.

    Gassho

    Shawn

    Sent from my I897 using Tapatalk

  29. #29

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Quote Originally Posted by mcurtiss
    Frankly, I think this has been made much bigger than it ever needed to be.

    Praxis has this place spinning around in circles and we appear to be letting him. He seems to be doing everything he can to get banned- to see if that will actually happen, as if getting banned will somehow prove his point.
    I think I agree. Some folks are good at pushing buttons.

    What I've never understood is why anyone would choose to take piano from someone whose piano playing they didn't like . . .

    Eika

  30. #30

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Hi,

    Just a couple of more points.

    Someone messaged me to suggest that we "are still being played" by "Praxis", and provides some evidence. Hmmm. I hope not. However, I have still not been contacted by Praxis privately to confirm the information he provided on registration.

    Second, someone wrote to ask how there could be such "Buddhists who be hatin'". Here is my take on it from having dealt with these folks a few years, and I will be blunt:

    There are some folks who are very filled with anger, meanness, resentments in one way or the other. Some maybe had "anger issues" even earlier in life, some were also alcoholics and drug addicts who, quitting the booze and dope, found Buddhism. Buddhism helped take the edge off the anger and resentments. That is WONDERFUL and to be applauded. We have folks here too who are dealing with various addictions and/or anger issues. But a small number of such folks, still filled with the anger and resentments just below the "white knuckle" surface, found a strange home over at my brother Brad's blog because of his "punk monk" image combined with his complete laissez-faire attitude toward blog moderation (PLUS laissez-faire approach on the Precepts emphasizing avoiding anger, right speech and such. Even my teacher Nishijima, a naturally kind and gentle man himself, may not have done enough to emphasize the Precepts, gentleness and kindness in his emphasis on Zazen because he assumed everybody would naturally be kind and gentle like him ... but that is a story for another day). So, there, one could be a "Buddhist" and be unabashedly foul mouthed, angry too, so long as one was sitting Zazen supposedly. That was largely turned on me a few times when I criticized that, had issues with Brad on these very subjects ... and separated our Sangha from that group over these very issues, including the anger, resentments and feuding that was found in the Dogen Sangha and around that blog.
    Anyway, that's my theory and I'm sticking with it.

    Now, I have been told by someone I trust that some or all of this "Praxis" thing may be an attempt by some folks connected there to create a "Chet II" incident just to "get us". I hope that is not true.

    Oh, and one more correction. Earlier, I wrote this:

    until a couple of years ago, I had the tendency to go out into the internet world and confront this group of folks anytime they said something untrue about this place

    In fact, I did make one posting there this week when someone accused us of discriminating against or maligning Pure Land Buddhists. That is something I could not let go, as it is a serious charge. Here is the original post and my response.

    Doug said...
    @Mysterion: huh, another Jodo Shu follower.

    I hate to jump on the "bash Treeleaf" wagon, but I admit my discussions of Pure Land Buddhism there were met with a cold, unfriendly shoulder from the administrators. Snarky comments from clergy strike me as a lousy way to garner interest in Soto Zen. It wasn't much better than E-Sangha when that was still around.

    I found the board, like much of the Zen community I've encountered to be chauvanistic and suffering from what Prof. Bodiford refers to as "Neo-orthodoxy in Western Zen".

    Suffice to say I gave up and moved onto to more friendly discussion groups.

    To Brad's credit, this forum is quite a bit friendlier, especially once you moderate comments.
    I responded:

    jundo cohen said...

    Hi,

    I want to respond about just this one comment (my earlier attempt seems to have not posted).

    This week, a novice priest from Treeleaf had the pleasure of sitting with Brad in a room filled with folks from many Zen lineages ... AZI, Christian Zen, even someone from Genpo's line. Everyone sitting in harmony under one roof. More here:

    LINK

    I wrote this in response:

    Many roads up the mountain (anyway, What Mountain?). The only question is which paths lead to a good place (which is ultimately No Place At All, Here All Along), and which merely have one chasing one's own tail, or lead into the brambles! Many paths, no place to go ... but some paths are better than others.

    No medicine to suit all patients (anyway, ultimately What Patient?). What we practice here may be right for many, poison for some. Other folks may need a flavor of Buddhism to treat their particular dis-ease (notice the hyphen, anyway What Disease?). Some may practice in monasteries, some not ... some may practice Just Sitting, some with a Koan, Breathing, Chanting Buddha's Name or Insight practice ... some may practice as Christians, Muslims or Jews and some not, some believing in God and some not ...

    'Tis a very spacious Mountain, a most powerful Medicine. Boundless, in fact.

    Gassho, J


    In our Treeleaf Sangha, we have two Catholic Priests who sit with us, other Christians, some Muslims, Jews, political liberals and conservatives, atheists and many agnostics. Each can practice Shikantaza, and each sometimes shares and expresses with all our members how they can combine their Zen practice with other practices and beliefs (or lack thereof). That is very welcome, and one can combine Zen practice with many other beliefs or non-beliefs. The same for someone practicing Pure Land with Zen Practice being free to share it with others. However, the fact is that in our 'Zen Dojo' our core practice is Shikantaza together with the Precepts and a few other things (all Zazen in its wider meaning), and not those other practices. So, even though we are open to hear about it and share, such practice is not taught or encouraged in our Dojo for a simple reason: It is very much like coming to an Ai-ki-do dojo and wanting to teach and share Karate. That is not what we practice (one would be better to find a Karate Dojo, or a Karate-Ai-ki-do teacher if one wants to practice that).

    I think people were respectful of your practices, and I do not think you will find any comment there by anyone who was "snarky" about it. It is just that we don't practice that there in our little place. But we respect and encourage you to follow your heart and do so (so long as you are sitting Shikantaza too).

    You know, I often say this about how Shikantaza fits with many beliefs, with what is ...

    If there is a Jesus, Allah, Jehovah or Amida Buddha in his Pure Land ... fetch water and chop wood, try to live avoiding doing harm.

    And if there is no Jesus, Allah, Jehovah, no Amida Buddha or Pure Land ... fetch water and chop wood, try to live avoiding doing harm.

    In Shikantaza, we sit with-and-as what is, whatever is. If there is a Jesus, Pure Land etc., we sit with/as that. If there is no Jesus, Pure Land etc., we sit with/as that.


    Anyway, Doug, I hope that clear it up, and you are always welcome to sit with us.

    Gassho, Jundo
    Anyway, there are 'hatin rap singers who resent other 'rap singers, hatin' Americans who hate the French, hatin' Christians who resent other Christians, 'hatin Jews who resent other Jews, 'hatin Sunnis who resent Shi'ites (and every combination thereof) ...

    ... I will never understand how there can be 'hatin and resentin' Buddhists, but such is human nature.

    All we can do is try to be, ourselves, gentle, soft spoken and anger free.


    Gassho, J

  31. #31

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    I want to say too ...

    Judge a Sangha, teachers, students and any people from their actions when "things are at their worst", when "stuff happens", when life's rubbers meets the road and it ain't all "rainbows, sunshine and flowers". That's when one really sees what's what.

    Well, we are seeing this Sangha and its folks in a situation which ain't all "flowers, sunshine and rainbows" ...

    ... and I think we all can be fairly content with how we are handling the ugly.

    Gassho, J

  32. #32

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    I just had a nice chat with Praxis, and I believe the matter is closed at his request.

    However, feel free to continue the discussion if anyone wants, as it is important to general Sangha policy and management.

    Gassho, J

  33. #33

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Hi all,

    I have serious doubts about Praxis identity, honesty and real intention as he keeps on his shape-shifting dance. Treeleafers are generally very courteous and nice to him and this whole thing is turning into a very sad joke. I would really like to welcome him here and , at the same time, I question his intention and real will to be part of a community without fussing about. I think it would be a good idea to invite him to give it a break and come back later would he wish to do so, after a healthy pause.

    gassho


    Taigu

  34. #34

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Thank you ph0kin/Doug.

    I am sorry you took that as a snipe at Pure Land practice. It was just my inelegant way of explaining our Zen "need to diet/practice", and that (even though there is nothing to gain/nothing to lose in the Buddha) the Buddha won't do the dieting for us. In our Zenny view anyway.

    Here is the full post ...

    viewtopic.php?p=33765#p33765

    Please keep at it, whatever road calls you.

    Gassho, Jundo

  35. #35

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    oh my

    what a difference a day (or two) make!

    Praxis! I am worried about you...

    Surely if only I had fully attended to my practice I would be able to help you...

    You do need help, and you have acknowledged such--studying willpower as you are...for impulse control...

    Well zen is not therapy. If impulse control is an issue for you, you need to find appropriate therapy.

    Zen can be therapeutic, but it is NOT therapy--there IS a difference.

    My take of you Praxis, is male, 28, and too clever for your own good. But you can use that cleverness to benefit all mankind, including yourself.
    Even if you aren't 28 and male.

    You need discipline and I recommend hockey--ice hockey--for that. Discipline will help you in everything else, including zen.
    There are some structured (old school) places I would recommend for practice (I will PM you), as you seem to be in the LA area...

    I am worried about you.

    Do you know what you need and where/how to go to get it?

    Zen is not therapy although it can be highly therapeutic. Are you in a position to live at a zen center? I mean if you are interested, really interested you might go for total immersion a la Antai-ji, or Tassajara. Local to you (if you really live in the LA area) would be Kuan-um school Dharma Zen Center in Mid-Wilshire District where you could live in and practice and go about daily activities.
    I think you might benefit from old-school structure.
    From what little I have seen/know of you: you are well educated and incredibly humorous!
    Hockey, ice hockey, as I see it, would fully utilize all your natural gifts (provided you can skate, of course). (Hockey is my true religion).

    I recommend, if you don't have one already, that you take up a hobby--any hobby. Nishijima Roshi used to say that zazen was his 'hobby.'
    Something you can learn more and more about endlessly. (and that is pretty much the case with just about everything--so you've got a lot to choose from).

    OK so so far I've got you into a hobby, and a residential zen center, or at least a highly structured place of practice, and a discipline/sport/exercise program: hockey...
    That gives you a portion of the day left for work and if you are in a relationship, then time to keep that going, if you aren't in one at this time, not to worry, between all the above you would be involved in you really don't have much time for much more for the time being.

    I wish for you the full flowering of this life, as a human, as a buddhist practitioner.
    May you know REALITY.
    May your realization benefit all.

    Without humans, there are no buddhas.

    Do not waste this human life. Time passes so quickly...whether you are having fun or not...

    May we all realize the buddha-way together! If I have been duped, so be it. Aspects of you do not lie, even if you try.
    We reveal ourselves by every act.
    Nothing is hidden.
    There is no escape from yourself. Find out why this is wonderful.

    I wish you, and everyone posting here, the best.

  36. #36

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    This morning i was in goalless sitting for one hour,
    with an open hart and empty mind,

    afterwards i was thinking about this tread,
    with some hot green tea,
    It is a great dharma,

    up's and down's
    not understanding each others
    who is not open minded
    or to fixated on a subject
    pointing out to each other,
    or maybe not...
    it's no problem!

    i can only close this with a little koan that i found:
    - Wait for that wisest of all counselors, Time -

    like Jundo always say in his video
    and i quote :
    let's us sit by that
    *edit : typos

  37. #37

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Jundo,

    I appreciate your giving us a bit of a background on the various issues that were going on around Treeleaf at other forums. I can understand that even other Buddhists would take the idea of an online sangha to be an anathema and express their opinions in less than polite ways. What you and all of us here are trying to do has never been done before so the scepticism and criticism are unavoidable and I would say even useful. But can you really silence all the naysayers? I guess it's the same as what you were saying about Sisyphus and that stone up the mountain. You have to do what you have to do. What I also believe is that the Internet, unfortunately, allows people to talk in ways that they would never do in face to face conversations. Of course, there should be no difference there, but most people don't see it that way.

    I think the actions speak much louder than words and people who have been on here for a while know what's at the heart of yours and Taigu's efforts here. I can say that during these several months that I've been here your efforts and advice have helped me in my life and practice, and that's what's important.

  38. #38

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Training a puppy (herding an ox)

    It takes time

    Patience

    Not everyone can do it, but anyone can.

    Over and over again going over and over again the same ground

    Taking the fountain of bounding if not boundless energy and flitting-all-over-the-place -awareness and shaping it: giving it areas to inhabit and areas to steer clear of.

    Observing behavior is a way to mine information:

    Come home to find shoes chewed: observe the shoes chosen for chewing: not a puppy who indiscriminately ‘chews’ but a puppy who picks certain shoes. Let’s say shoes which have stepped in something, maybe a particular something

    Now you have information: a puppy with a nose for shit!

    Such a nose is a natural ability. While I don’t want my shoes chewed, I also don’t want to punish behavior I haven’t understood, all the while thinking I do.
    This nose in the right contexts might locate cancer, might detect bombs. All the time I am punishing what I think is ‘teething’ behavior I am missing the boat so to speak. I am missing opportunity to harness rather than squelch.
    This dog might be training me--to be careful where I step, and to check my shoes before stepping into the house...
    ---------------------------

    It happens regularly at zen centers, someone wanders in, an ox in a zendo.
    (Maybe someone could create a new set of ox-herding pictures)

    The status quo is disrupted. In itself, not a bad thing to have happened. Actually an inevitable event. Zen centers are living places and are in constant flux, life itself, no?
    -----------------------

    Equanimity is not a state, it is often referred to as a 'state', but I think it is a process, like breathing. To my way of thinking it requires I take the pencil-sketch of what I ‘think’ IS (most of us put thinking in pen, and often use indelible ink) and adjusts this to what IS itself.

    If only I could remember to use pencil! Constantly I am encountering the dukka of pen., dukka of my own making (indeed, no one else has ever made it for me) Yet I love using pens! Why can I not remember that pens = trouble.
    When I suspend ‘the pen’ and keep it as blank as possible, as few lines as possible, as faint as possible…far fewer if not no ‘problems,’ closer to just meeting things as they IS.


    For what it’s worth: these are my odds-box collection of thoughts today. It has been useful for me to have them come to mind and I have all those posting here to thank for giving me things to ponder.

  39. #39

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Hey everyone.
    i tried reading the posts of Praxis. cant make sense of it... i will be honest i dont really know what is going on. but it does seem like in some of hist post he was trying to push a few buttons. it was like listening to own of the patients i work with that their mind is so far gone because of dementia that they speak words and phrases that are not connected to reality.
    i think anyone who just tries to stir a commotion and cause a scene, isnt really good for this community. jundo and taigu should have the option to protect their teaching. we practice here in a certain way and maybe that isnt the path place for him.

    i will be honest that since i joined treeleaf about 3.5 years ago it has grown to huge proportions. it kinda scares me. i used to read all post everyday. now i cant find the time to read even a fraction. within a few hours of a new topic or post there are about 20 replays. i think jundo once even said that sometimes we should talk less. i do feel things are something beyond words and cant talk about zen any more. i just live it.

    Gassho, Dojin.

  40. #40
    Senior Member Amelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    San Marcos, California
    Posts
    1,468

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Dojin
    i think anyone who just tries to stir a commotion and cause a scene, isnt really good for this community.
    I have been on many forums over the years and I have had times in which I recall being obnoxious or judgmental, or both. It wasn't me just trying to stir the pot, though. In those times I remember being deeply troubled and confused. I had a lot of things going on and I just wanted to be sure of something-- anything! I did that by trying to form many beliefs at once, many of which were contradictory, causing such a mess. It was an outward manifestation of my inner confusion. I don't necessarily think that praxis is in the same boat, but I send him or her metta all the same because I know what it's like to stir shit without really meaning to (if, of course, he or she didn't mean to).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dojin
    we practice here in a certain way
    ... And yet the ocean accepts all streams.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keishin
    Do not waste this human life. Time passes so quickly...whether you are having fun or not...
    _/_

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    http://www.treeleaf.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=33765#p33765

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Eating too much chocolate cake, under the excuse that "it is all the same" or "there is no goal, nothing in need of change", is not truly dieting. (On the other hand, expecting to only eat carrots ... and never taste chocolate cake again ... may not be realistic.
    In a completely unrelated way, this was advice I really needed today. Thank you. _/_

  41. #41

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Jundo and Taigu invest precious personal time into the maintenance of this forum and to the growth of our practice without asking for much in return (beyond common civility to each other). That being said, any indivdual that maliciously attempts to disrupt a community in a consistent manner should not be allowed to continue (for a time being) until he/she is able to act with kindness to others. We can disagree, argue, and scream at one another but should only do so with the understanding that we are all here to promote each other's growth and in a way that avoids ad hominem attacks (and disagreements and rational discussions are part of that process). Trolling should not be allowed and should be dealt with (if this is the case).

    If Praxix is sincere, I have no issues allowing him/her to continue contributing. If this is a place to just "get your kicks" through mean-spirited attacks, please move on.

    Gassho,

    Lu

  42. #42

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Somebody reminded me of an old text written a couple of years ago and that is somehow appropriate here. Once again this practice invites us to direct the flow of questions in the direction of the self. Because of its very nature, Treeleaf is not an abusive structure, and you may find in the hound of barking opponents a clear abusive tendency. For years they have been abusive to Jundo, myself or anybody thinking differently from the muddy teenage like stream that celebrates trashing, swearing, bashing and see in the f word and the likes the ultimate manifestation of prajna. I thank them for this ( reassuring in a way ) and Wish them the vey best.


    In my limited experience, zazen exhausts both questions and answers, or if you wish, the need, the urge to be given a map to go and live. When ? and ! are dropped, we are taken back home, which is exactly here and now, a place we never leave. Then our being-time -here-and- now is a living question-answer. Action takes place and arises in this dynamic reality which is not anymore perceived or grasped through fears or hopes. Eating, we eat. Living, we live. Sleeping, we sleep. Or, if I put it another way, zazen is a way to redirect the flow of questions to the very source of our being-time, you actualize the fact that the answers are not anymore over there in books, traditions, teachings but that you are the answer to all the questions you ask. Questions do not beg for an answer but are seen and experienced as a way to wake up to this reality without necessarily putting your paws on any definite answer. A way to wonder, not to wander. It is true that then the whole universe, from toilets to kitchen, work and family and friends and things become the living questions put to us.

  43. #43
    Senior Member AlanLa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    East Texas
    Posts
    1,220

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Anonymous said...
    That AlanLa guy is a knob.
    I'm fine with that :lol:

    Praxis has been a good teacher in his short time here. Difficult teachers can bring valuable lessons, but there comes a time to let go of such teachers when their lesson is complete. It just might be time to let this praxis teacher go.

    Signed,
    The Knob
    (momentarily giving serious consideration into changing my ID here to this, really, I kind of like it. Can I? maybe I'll rejoin under a new name. No, wait... Umm...)

  44. #44

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Finally got around to getting the links to send in a PM to Praxis, as I had said I would a few posts back, but his name is not on the membership list.

    Feels like standing at a graveside. Or looking out at the backyard after a tornado blew through.

    So there is no one to direct the links to. While Praxis can still come here and read, I suppose, I do not feel comfortable leaving links here. These places are on the web, they are local to LA area if that's where you are from Praxis.
    What is next for you? Up to you, really.

    If you had a few more things to say, well...

    the dying embers of this thread won't give off its faint light and fading heat for much longer

    Hope you meet up with a good match, please disregard my posting with all the 'suggestions,' I can't help the mom in me coming out sometimes. You are fully capable of managing your own practice, good luck!

  45. #45

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanLa
    Signed,
    The Knob
    (momentarily giving serious consideration into changing my ID here to this, really, I kind of like it. Can I? maybe I'll rejoin under a new name. No, wait... Umm...)
    If Google Translate is correct, the Japanese for "knob" is Nobu. I like it!

  46. #46

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    There once was a spider that possed as a fly and easily trapped its prey. The fly was called Praxis.

    We should never ban and present ourselves as an open armed sangha. Learn to deal with adversity through good judgement and choice of actions. If someone slings " Bizantine Rubbish" (Taigu) then don't pay homage to it by offering your time and mental capacity in replying. If there is no food for a fly or spider it will either relocate or wither. So lets not ban and become elitist. I say ban not.
    Gassho Shogen

  47. #47
    Treeleaf Unsui Shokai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sarnia, Ontario Canada
    Posts
    2,048
    Blog Entries
    119

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Good one Zak _/_

  48. #48

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Shogen,

    I do understand where you come from and really see the point of helping people as much as we can ( which I do relentlessly in my other jobs). Sometimes it is impossible to provide the help needed because the person doesn't want to be helped, or is unable to follow simple directions. On top of this, some people may abuse the internet in many ways: choosing to hide, changing their response according to the situation, sharing would be useless knowledge, making false accusations...In that case and for many centuries the answer is to ban. It is not ideal, not totally right, it also shows our shortcomings and difficulty to deal with certains issues ( It is never easy). And there you are. I don't like it, Jundo doesn 't like it, nobody really likes it. Praxis may come back at any time once he-she changes his-her attitude. The alternative is the "wild" stream of comments you have on Brad's blog.
    If someone slings:" Byzantine rubbish" it is because the point : "life is too short" has not been heard. I am offering plenty of time and my limited mental capacity in replying, nevertheless I have learned a lesson, since I have three jobs and not enough time for myself (you cannot believe what it means to have weekly dokusan almost daily after 11 hours of teaching and 4 hours commuting a day) I generally do not waste the few minutes of freedom left. Now , I am loosing a precious time not being with my family at the breakfast table, but I am also not loosing it: for you are somebody that I ma sure can understand what I am writing here.

    Thank you for being open

    gassho


    Taigu

  49. #49

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Before I read through everybody posts carefully my initial reaction was that this dude needs to be kicked out. However, after reading everybody's posts there seems to be some valid reasons to give this dude one last chance. However, at the end of the day he has wasted highly highly highly valued and respected time from jundo and taigu when instead of spending so much time and energy on this particular individual it could have been spent answering genuine posts and discussions or maybe just sitting time. If there is going to be only one last chance it should really be only one last chance.

    Whatever decision is made I am sure it will be done through a deep inner wisdom and will result in the correct one.

    Gassho

    Ray

  50. #50

    Re: POSSIBLE MEMBERSHIP REMOVAL DISCUSSION: PRAXIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray
    Before I read through everybody posts carefully my initial reaction was that this dude needs to be kicked out. However, after reading everybody's posts there seems to be some valid reasons to give this dude one last chance. However, at the end of the day he has wasted highly highly highly valued and respected time from jundo and taigu when instead of spending so much time and energy on this particular individual it could have been spent answering genuine posts and discussions or maybe just sitting time. If there is going to be only one last chance it should really be only one last chance.

    Whatever decision is made I am sure it will be done through a deep inner wisdom and will result in the correct one.

    Gassho

    Ray
    Hi,

    Let me just say that the doors are never closed here, although it is a "Practice Dojo" ... like a Karate or Ai-ki-do Dojo ... and at a certain point we have to keep some order and get down to teaching a certain method (or "non-method" to be 'Zenny' about it). We can discuss why we do a certain "kick" a certain way ... and we can have some folks demonstrate how they wished we would kick, think it would be better if we kicked, or how they learned to kick at some other school. We can also kid, debate and joke around in the coffee room.

    But at the end of the day, we cannot allow too much disturbance to the classroom process, and we need to teach how we "kick in this school" of this Dojo (or "non-kick" to be all 'Zenny' about it. We "non-kick the non-enemy"). Coffee break must be over, and we get back to the mat.

    Let me just say again, though, that the main issue for me with Praxis was not his asking "tough questions". In fact, "tough questions" are welcome, and this place and its 'Karate teachers' would not be worth their salt if they could not handle "tough questions". Nor was it particularly what seemed like a dodging, toying and "just stirring up controversy to make controversy" attitude when we tried to respond. (That did play a large role when it continued for many days though).

    It was also much the fact that the fellow never contacted me to confirm identity information he provided and which I could not confirm, plus tips I was getting that someone malicious may be "behind it" and trying to stir up some trouble. I tend to doubt that but, given the lack of cooperation, I still cannot be totally sure what was going on and have mixed signals. I still do not understand completely.

    However, the doors of this Dojo are always open to anyone wishing to learn our non-method for non-kicking.

    Gassho, Jundo

    PS - Taigu and I are saying about exactly the same thing, me feels ... he in his 'Continental way', me in my 'Yankee way'. 8)

Similar Threads

  1. Discussion on Right View
    By Saijun in forum TREELEAF COMMUNITY: Topics about Zazen, Zen, Buddhism & MORE ZAZEN!
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 06-24-2011, 04:52 AM
  2. Praxis
    By Eika in forum TREELEAF COMMUNITY: Topics about Zazen, Zen, Buddhism & MORE ZAZEN!
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 02-09-2009, 05:45 PM
  3. Book Discussion Group?
    By Justin in forum TREELEAF COMMUNITY: Topics about Zazen, Zen, Buddhism & MORE ZAZEN!
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-02-2007, 04:44 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •