Fly Swatter

[Hoyu]

Hi All,

I have recently found it difficult to study from eachother or our teacher's threads when a reoccurring poster defiles them by choosing to interrupt with the same negative agenda. Surly this would not even be allowed to continue at a brick and mortar Zen center. As a matter of fact I once heard of a story where Suzuki Roshi(if memory serves) escorted one trouble maker out by the nose! Are we more Zennie by allowing this to continue to the dismay of others but the one who seems to be getting satisfaction from it? If I am missing the good in this which is worth keeping around please let me know because as far as I can see this person isn't here to learn and doesn't seem to care about anyone here.

Gassho,
John

[Jundo]

Hi John,

When someone gets upset by something, it is best to look in the mirror sometimes. The outside situation is not really what causes the "upset", but the upset person's reaction to the situation most immediately causes the "upset". So, just let it go, relax ... sit with that. You, the upset person, are the one getting "upset" perhaps?

If there were really some serious disturbance in the Sangha, some truly abusive situation, I would have to take some action (it has happened only 2 or 3 times in our 5 years history at Treeleaf). But asking questions, like Praxis is doing, does not seem like such a situation, and I think he is being sincere. He may be asking some pointed questions (and I think he is a bit deaf to the responses being given), but he can ask.

I hope you ... and Praxis ... sit, let it all go, let it be. 8)

Gassho, J

[Hoyu]

Thank you Jundo Sensei. The mirror surly does reflect things clearly. I considered hitting the delete button on my original post but didn't. Guess I'm just not at that place in my practice yet.

Gassho,
John

[Nindo]

Hi John,

Just wanted to say that I had the same thoughts as you. I was upset and I was wondering why.
We arrive at a judgment, I guess, and then it's easier to hold on to it than to let it go.

I'm going to sit with what is still bugging me.
While words are spoken, my hair is growing to my ankles.

Thank you Jundo. Thank you John. Thank you Praxis.

[Hoyu]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts Nindo. All this truly shows me that I surly have vulnerabilities in areas of my practice.

Gassho,
John

[Nenka]

Here's the thing. Teachings don't always come in neat, tidy, polite little packages. And not everybody who comes to Treeleaf makes a great first impression. I can't gauge Praxis' level of sincerity (and should I?) but I have seen that this messy little shitstorm has given us all a refresher course in how to express ourselves on the internet. The spinoff threads that came out of this about words and careful speech were very valuable (and brought out a member-in-hiding. Greetings, Butterfly!)

And so, in the spirit of PPE5 (saying thanks), I'd like to say thank you, Praxis.

And thank you, sangha.

Gassho

Jen

P.S. Praxis: hey, could you at least confirm your gender to us? I had to write this avoiding using "he" or "s/he." :lol:

[Kyonin]

I feel you, John.

The past few days have been pretty odd because of Mr. Praxis' hunger for mischief. I have stayed out of all the discussions because in my experience you just can't have a polite conversation with someone who is constantly disturbing peace.

Not biting his hooks has been a tough practice for me.

If I am missing the good in this which is worth keeping around please let me know because as far as I can see this person isn't here to learn and doesn't seem to care about anyone here.

I totally agree, but I do agree with Jundo as well. We just have to relax and let him be.

We are in Ango, after all. Learning patience and to see things without attachments and flow with them is part of our training.

So, in my point of view, Mr. Praxis serves like a nice subject of study for our PPE, like Jen says.

First we have to thank him for being here. We are learning patience and how to manage difficult people.

Second, I have been aware of the emotions all the discussions are triggering in me. It's like a lab.

Maybe it's not that bad.

[Dokan]

Thank you Jundo Sensei. The mirror surly does reflect things clearly. I considered hitting the delete button on my original post but didn't. Guess I'm just not at that place in my practice yet.

Gassho,
John

Thanks for not hitting delete John. It's refreshing to see raw and unedited posts. I initially shared your thoughts to some degree. However I really didn't have the energy nor bandwidth in my practice to argue about things that just didn't matter. Heck, even if it did matter I probably wouldn't have bothered because in my experience in online forums I see this type of discussion as mostly 'trolling'.

Ironically, it seems that many people actually were able to grow and learn in their practice...so I guess it couldn't be classified as a "fail troll". :twisted:

Gassho,

Shawn

[andyZ]

I'd like to share what I've gotten out of these many topics on the subject.

If you're not actively involved in the discussions, you're still involved by just reading it, processing, forming opinions, judging, taking sides etc. even if it's just in your mind. So there's no pure "non involvement", even actively skipping the posts is still reacting to them. So we're on this together as a sangha or readers of these messages.

How we react is I think what the practice is about. All those PPEs that Fugen is posting are exactly about how to live according to the dharma in this world. Not judging, saying thank, "killing of giving life" with a word. But what is the driving force behind those messages, words and opinions? Is it metta? Is it dana? Is it self who is speaking or no-self?

Anyway, those are the questions that I don't know the answer to myself all the time, but I think asking them is important.

[Shokai]

Even HHDL swats mosquitos, perhaps a repeat of Rumi also fits here;

What you see of me is only
What you know of yourself
I left these words long ago
To dance round my ghost.

- Jalal-ud-Din Rumi

Thank you John, Jundo, Jenn, Shawn, Morelos, Nindo AND Praxis

[Hoyu]

Hi All,

Thank you very much for the words of wisdom you have shared! There is much here to help me to see clearly that there is always the presence of benefit even when not easily visible at first. I am grateful for these lessons.

Now, I have a deeper question to share. I have always found the teachings of our practice much easier when it is applied to things which only affect myself. When someone(or life in general) does harm to me, through the wisdom of Zen, I can easily remain more removed from my "monkey mind". Not getting caught by being angry or emotionally distraught. But when it comes to the harm of others my desire to defend and protect them usually means the teachings go out the window. That is what happened here. This one person's behavior bothered, me personally, very little. So it was easy to just let go of and ignore. When I got "stuck", and thus strayed from the teachings, was when I began to perceive that harm was being done to other people here. Perhaps it's my activist mentality which which makes me have more of a mind which is willing to fight for others over myself? I just feel my practice, in this way, may be somewhat lopsided.

Ok, finally on to my question! How can a person apply the teachings equally to self and other(not two :wink: ) to create a healthier balance? Not getting caught and having ones behavior stray from the teachings when bad things happen to others we want to protect.

Gassho,
John

[Rev R]

As a mother would risk her life
to protect her child, her only child,
even so should one cultivate a limitless heart
with regard to all beings.

~Karaniya Metta Sutta

Looks to me like you are doing just fine John. Exactly which teachings go out the window?

[Hoyu]

As a mother would risk her life
to protect her child, her only child,
even so should one cultivate a limitless heart
with regard to all beings.

~Karaniya Metta Sutta

Looks to me like you are doing just fine John. Exactly which teachings go out the window?

Great question. Like a splash of cold water in the face! My initial reply is this. In this case I'm going to say right speech since my words(and thoughts) regarding Praxis's behavior were rather harsh. Now your question has given me much to think about.

Gassho,
John

[Rev R]

Don't think too long. There is a castle at the top of this mountain and we have to take it by nightfall.

[andyZ]

Ok, finally on to my question! How can a person apply the teachings equally to self and other(not two :wink: ) to create a healthier balance? Not getting caught and having ones behavior stray from the teachings when bad things happen to others we want to protect.

Gassho,
John

I second what Rev R is saying about overanalyzing.

May be we don't have to have an answer to every question. May be the quesion itself isn't necessary sometimes.
Lately when some questions arise in my mind, I just do what I do in zazen when my mind wanders - I acknowledge the thought and return to my breath. Just my 5c.

[Hoyu]

Don't think too long.

Hi Rod,

I took Jundo Sensei's words to heart and perhaps I have spent too much time standing if front of the mirror when a quick glance would have been enough?!
Thank you for the reminder

Gassho,
John

[Rev R]

and don't forget your sword.

Attached files

[Hoyu]

and don't forget your sword.

:lol:
I'll stick with the confetti cannon

Gassho,
John

[Rev R]

a good hearty laugh will defeat a thousand Maras

[Hoyu]

a good hearty laugh will defeat a thousand Maras

_/_