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Thread: Uji

  1. #1

    Uji

    Linked off Brad Warner's blog, this is a side-by-side comparison of 8 different translations of Dogen's "Uji" (Time-Being).

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/57687502/Uji-Compare

    No commentary...just thought I'd share. I did a forum search for Uji and came up with nothing, so hope this hasn't been posted before.

    Gassho,
    Matt

  2. #2
    Senior Member Hoyu's Avatar
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    Re: Uji

    Hi Matt,

    Thanks for sharing I'm going to take a deeper look into this once I'm home. On a side note I see this was posted on Scribd. I have found many cool things there but sometimes I wonder if everything is legit? I mean as in complying with copyrights?

    Gassho,
    John

  3. #3

    Re: Uji

    Hi.

    Interesting, and valuable, to see so many translations side by side.

    Thanks for posting.

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen

  4. #4

    Re: Uji

    Quote Originally Posted by JRBrisson
    On a side note I see this was posted on Scribd. I have found many cool things there but sometimes I wonder if everything is legit? I mean as in complying with copyrights?
    That would be a no as best I've been able to tell... they basically put the onus of copyright and sharing on the uploader, which I don't think would necessarily hold in court. If you're a Scribd member or try to download something then it will ask you to upload something in exchange.. along with a small "check here" box that you have the rights to upload and share. It does have a lot of things I've found useful in the past.. though I tend to upload the lamest / freest things I can find to avoid putting a novel on there and receiving a letter from Harper Publishing..

    _/_ Nate

  5. #5
    Senior Member Hoyu's Avatar
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    Re: Uji

    Thanks Nate, this puts my mind at ease!

    Gassho,
    John

  6. #6

    Re: Uji

    Thinking of Uji, it may be good to have a look at chapters 15 & 16 of the Lotus Sutra along side of it. If I recall it helps put it into contetext. But it is a wild ride!

  7. #7

    Re: Uji

    Quote Originally Posted by Matto
    Linked off Brad Warner's blog, this is a side-by-side comparison of 8 different translations of Dogen's "Uji" (Time-Being).

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/57687502/Uji-Compare

    No commentary...just thought I'd share. I did a forum search for Uji and came up with nothing, so hope this hasn't been posted before.

    Gassho,
    Matt
    What a fascinating way to read UJI, thank you for the link.

    Because Dogen was such a master wordsmith, poet, buffoon and gamester with language, it is often helpful to read 2 or 3 good translations at once and kinda "extrapolate" where he was coming from and heading to ... beyond comin' & goin'.

    I agree with Fuken about the Lotus Sutra.

    I once (!!) wrote this about Dogen's wild sense of time ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    For those folks unfamiliar with his writings, Master Dogen had some very interesting perspective(s) on time. And I emphasize the word "perspective(s)", because he wrote of an infinite variety of ways of looking and experiencing time (and "no time") ... some seemingly contradictory, each true in its own way.

    Now, for those who would say that this is just "Buddhist philosophy" and offers nothing to our Practice, let me tell you why penetrating these perspectives is golden. Most are not our typical, day to day way of looking at time ... but are freeing. For example:

    - Each moment, whatever its content, happy or sad, is true and sacred and a sparkling jewel. Push none of it away ... "sad childhoods" and "scary futures" included.

    - But, from another simultaneously true perspective, there really are no "separate moments", nor "happy vs. sad" (without the human mind to cut things up that way and impose judgments such as times we like and times we dislike). The trees and mountains probably do not need to think to themselves "Today is Tuesday, and it is better than yesterday, and I hope tomorrow it rains"). One aspect of this is that, in a sense, "sad childhoods long ago" and "scary/desired futures" exist primarily right now between your ears. Be more like the trees and mountains!

    - All time is so interconnected and whole, that ... not only does the past flow into the future ... but (like the top of a mountain that flows into the bottom, and the bottom of the mountain which flows into the top) the future flows into the past.

    - All time is so interconnected and whole ... that each moment, from one perspective, contains and expresses all moments. ... like each single step of a ballerina holds and expresses the whole ballet she is dancing.

    - All time is so interconnected to life, that it may be said that all things, each of us, lives in our own 'being-time' ... like our own picture which we are constantly painting, and which we make and remake with every step and choice, gesture, word and thought ("this moment is the start of the rest of your life" is just the tip of the iceberg!)

    - "Long" and "short" are really just human judgments (the Earth does not say to itself "Gee, it takes me a long time to get around the sun!" The firefly does not say, "shame I only shine for a fortnight"). Those measurements can be dropped from mind, whereby concepts such as "long life" and "short life" can be dropped from mind.

    - All time (from another simultaneously true perspective) is a state of mind ... and there is no true "past" or "future" or "present" when the mind stops cutting up "just this" into categories, which the human mind imposes all manner of judgments and divisions upon. Even the word "present" then has no meaning if there is no "past" or "future" to compare it to. What remains is the ultimate "just going with the flowing".

    and other perspectives too ...


    I wrote the following awhile back (perfectly what it is in that moment and this) .. .

    ON DOGEN-TIME

    As to Dogen's conception of Being-Time. I can give that to you in a nutshell. It helps to realize that Dogen was always proposing Reality from several perspectives at once, some seemingly contradictory (X exists, X does not exist), but just different vantage points, each true in its way:

    So, we usually think that time flows past to present to future, and that events over 'here' and 'now' are not events over 'there' and 'then'. Well, that is true in its way. But Dogen also pointed out that the past is just a memory of the mind (it was, after all, just the 'present' back then), and the future is just a dream of the mind (what future has there been yet?). In that way, 'past' and 'future' are just dreams. So, without there truly being a 'past' or 'future', what need have we even for the word 'present' (which only exists as a concept in contrast to what is -not- the present)? If we compare it a little to a 'river', it is a little like saying that there is no 'upstream' or 'downstream' or 'here' to the river, if we just see it all as a single 'just-the-river'.

    And because every place on the river is 'just the river', every drop of the river is 'just the river', everything happens SIMULTANEOUSLY! Both the top and bottom of the river are present simultaneously and are one. Because everything that is of the river is just the river, everything that happens 'here' happens 'here' 'there' and 'everywhere' too. (I don't like overly connecting modern physics to Dogen, but there are parallels: For example, we think of the 'Big Bang' as something that happened in the past, but in some mathematical models, it is happening right now and every time too. Furthermore, where in the universe is the 'Big Bang' not happening(?), because all came out of the Big Bang at once).

    Further, there is a past and future too (there is, and there is not). But the future flows into the present which flows into the past. It is a little like saying that, though a river flows from upstream to downstream, you cannot have downstream without upstream. Downstream also flows into the upstream. Modern physics has come intrigingly close to this by saying that all timelines actually can be seen as running in two directions (the dominoes falling down can also be seen as the dominos 'unfalling up').

    And every drop of the river flows into every other drop of the river, so that what happens to Drop X is the time and being of Drop Y. If you drink a cup of coffee, it is the whole universe drinking a cup of coffee. And if you are doing it here and now, the whole universe is here and now.

    Furthermore, everything in the universe had its own 'time'. (Again, by coincidence perhaps, Einstein stumbled upon a model something like this a few centuries later). My life-clock is not your life-clock.

    We also think of time as 'long' or short' ... but would a creature that lives its lifetime in a day or a creature with a lifetime of 10,000 years view time the same way as mankind? Are not 'long and short' subjective judgments of men, and is not 'time' just" time' (just what it is, not long or short)? And can we not say too that every moment is an eternity unto itself? .

    And, of course, time is not separate from being, and being is not separate from time ... In other words, all of the above is just YOU!

    And on and on it goes. It is just another way of seeing life and being as of one piece with all of space and time, with all Reality. It is just another way too of tossing a monkey wrench in our normal way of seeing events and who we are.

    Now, I am out of time ... so time to stop.

    Anyway, I have not even begun to scratch the surface. If you want to read Dogen original words in Uji, have a look here ...

    http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/ ... gs/Uji.htm

    And a scholar's paper here:

    http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/dirck.htm

    Does that help?
    Gassho, Jundo

    PS - If you think anything I wrote is "weird" ... I just happened to hear a short bit of Stephen Hawking's interview yesterday in which he posits that time travel is possible if space were sufficiently warped (star trek fans) ... although ya might wreck all space-time in the process ... :shock:

    http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/showbi ... cnn?hpt=C2

  8. #8

    Re: Uji

    Matt,

    Thanks for posting this....Uji just plain ROCKS! It really is one of my favorites. Quite a bit to deal with, but with Jundo's guidance I do have a general "feel" for the material.

    Gassho,
    BrianW/Jisen

  9. #9

    Re: Uji

    This is some really really cool stuff. I know it's tangential but Jundo brought up Trek so it's his fault. Lol. I recently saw the last shuttle launch. I hope one day we do work together to focus on exploration of ourselves and the universe. Reading about time like this is so awe inspiring.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Hoyu's Avatar
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    Re: Uji

    Jundo wrote:
    So, we usually think that time flows past to present to future, and that events over 'here' and 'now' are not events over 'there' and 'then'. Well, that is true in its way. But Dogen also pointed out that the past is just a memory of the mind (it was, after all, just the 'present' back then), and the future is just a dream of the mind (what future has there been yet?). In that way, 'past' and 'future' are just dreams. So, without there truly being a 'past' or 'future', what need have we even for the word 'present' (which only exists as a concept in contrast to what is -not- the present)? If we compare it a little to a 'river', it is a little like saying that there is no 'upstream' or 'downstream' or 'here' to the river, if we just see it all as a single 'just-the-river'.
    Wow, this right here really puts it into perspective for me!

    Gassho,
    John

  11. #11
    Treeleaf Unsui Shokai's Avatar
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    Re: Uji

    You can say what you will about the wild and scary of Dogen's perception/description of time but, this/that is close to the version of my perception for a long "time" now. How weird is that (or am I)? :roll:

  12. #12
    Treeleaf Unsui Shokai's Avatar
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    Re: Uji

    OK, so I'm weird but my mother still loves me (even tho she's been dead for 50 years now (but tha's only time, right??

  13. #13
    Treeleaf Unsui Shokai's Avatar
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    Re: Uji

    I'm having a wonderful moment "right now" and I'm not alone :shock:

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    Treeleaf Unsui Shokai's Avatar
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    Re: Uji

    What has really screwed the notion of time is the Internet; consider when I Skype with Jundo (who happens to reside that 12 hours ahead of me), he is reliving my present moment half a day later. Didn't Einstein say something about an hour with a pretty girl on a park bench seemed like far too short a time when 15 minutes of a homily in church lasted for an eternity. The last time we Skyped seemed to fly right by. I was astounded to see that we were forty minutes ( Not to say that he is all that pretty :lol: )

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