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Thread: Kiya, Just Arising or Arising Only

  1. #1

    Kiya, Just Arising or Arising Only

    I'm reading Each Moment is the Universe: Zen and the Way of Being Time by Katagiri Roshi, and I'm very interested in this passage (20-1 in my edition) about "kiya":

    [Dogen] said if you want to say something about what a moment is, say that moment is arising. In Japnese the word for arising is ki. ... So, to explain moment, we can say just arising or arising only. Dogen said it is kiya. Dogen's use of ya, a strong affirmative, implies that he understood moment in a dynamic, nonconceptual sense. It is difficult to understand, but according to Dogen, arising appears as beings, the human world of existence. ...

    Buddhism doesn't see the self [as an object], because when I am present in the domain of impermanence, I can't say who I am. I realize from the bottom of my mind that I exist, but I can't say anything at all about myself because there is no concept there. At that time I am just arising [kiya].
    This sense of arising (in/as the moment) appearing as being (in/as the moment) is very powerful to me; Katagiri Roshi's passage is one of those that made me sit up in recognition of something I couldn't articulate before reading it -- even as it sits just beyond conception. And it made me wonder what else I might learn about kiya from you all.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Hoyu's Avatar
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    Re: Kiya, Just Arising or Arising Only

    And it made me wonder what else I might learn about kiya from you all
    Hi Chris,

    Looks like we will be learning more about this together. I know about as much as you on this one. And I only know that much because I just learned it from this very post!

    Gassho,
    John

  3. #3

    Re: Kiya, Just Arising or Arising Only

    Boy, I'm having a hard time finding anything on this. For starters, does anyone know where Katagiri Roshi found this word in Dogen's writing? Here's the reference from the google books link to Each Moment, fwiw.)

  4. #4

    Re: Kiya, Just Arising or Arising Only

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    [Dogen] said if you want to say something about what a moment is, say that moment is arising. In Japnese the word for arising is ki. ... So, to explain moment, we can say just arising or arising only. Dogen said it is kiya. Dogen's use of ya, a strong affirmative, implies that he understood moment in a dynamic, nonconceptual sense. It is difficult to understand, but according to Dogen, arising appears as beings, the human world of existence. ...

    Buddhism doesn't see the self [as an object], because when I am present in the domain of impermanence, I can't say who I am. I realize from the bottom of my mind that I exist, but I can't say anything at all about myself because there is no concept there. At that time I am just arising [kiya].
    This sense of arising (in/as the moment) appearing as being (in/as the moment) is very powerful to me; Katagiri Roshi's passage is one of those that made me sit up in recognition of something I couldn't articulate before reading it -- even as it sits just beyond conception. And it made me wonder what else I might learn about kiya from you all.
    Yea, this is that don't know place. We are acting in this universe - breathing, walking, talking. Then we layer all kinds of thinking and concepts on it and make a lot of trouble for ourselves and others. That's why I try to stay close to don't know mind. Like someone said the future is now. But I have a question - Is the moment arising or Are we arising? Even this is a concept so I'll say 'It's just arising' and its not going to last forever and you have a lot less control over it than you think. So relax and enjoy the journey.

  5. #5

    Re: Kiya, Just Arising or Arising Only

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich
    But I have a question - Is the moment arising or Are we arising? Even this is a concept so I'll say 'It's just arising' and its not going to last forever and you have a lot less control over it than you think.
    I believe that that the moment, and thus being, is ever just arising, arising only, no more and no less. Not one, not two.

  6. #6

    Re: Kiya, Just Arising or Arising Only

    Hi Chris,

    I'm sure as shootin' that Katagiri Roshi is non-pointing us to the "ki" of "Zenki" (??) ... which might be translated something as the "Fully Enlivening All-Encompassing Complete Pivot Point Right Here of the Whole Works" or (more briefly) "the Total Functioning" (something like that!) 8) ... Dogen Zenji's worldview(s) of this whole wonderful dance whereby we are each dancers spun and spinning around in our own toe shoes ...

    "Zenki" is, I feel, one of the most important AND most approachable sections of Shobogenzo, highly highly recommended to all.

    Please EVERYONE! have a read and listen and sit to these three talks on "Zenki" and see if that helps ...

    viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3083

    If you would like to read a full version of Zenki (it is only a few pages), and do not have Tanahashi or Nishijima-Cross around, here is one that will do by Cleary ...

    http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/ ... Cleary.htm

    Gassho, J

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    Senior Member Hoyu's Avatar
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    Re: Kiya, Just Arising or Arising Only

    have a read and listen and sit to these three talks on "Zenki" and see if that helps ...
    Thank you Jundo Sensei these talks on Zenki were of great help! I really was struck by Dogen's words on the two approaches when viewing death. Don't think about it thus avoiding suffering of the idea of death. Or drop all ideas of beginnings and endings(as it matters not how we arrived on this boat) thus avoiding suffering. I like the 2nd approach because not only does it help with matters of life and death it extends far beyond just those two simple facts of life.

    Gassho,
    John

  8. #8

    Re: Kiya, Just Arising or Arising Only

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    I'm reading Each Moment is the Universe: Zen and the Way of Being Time by Katagiri Roshi, and I'm very interested in this passage (20-1 in my edition) about "kiya":
    Hi Chris,

    Because you brought up this book, I decided to reread it (last time was when it came out). It is a lovely, sacred mess.

    What I mean by that is that Katagiri Roshi (and Suzuki Roshi in books like "Zen Mind, Beginners Mind" and Uchiyama Roshi in some of his books) tended to wander and meander in these oral talks. Like a guitarist on stage just jamming and riffing on his guitar with no particular structure, Katagiri Roshi is just jammin' and seeing where the words/music take him. Because I have been doing this Zen thing for a few decades, I can follow what he is trying to say ... and there are wonderful Buddhist teachings in there ... but it is often wrapped in a real jumble of thoughts and sentences.

    Couple the fact that Katagiri Roshi (like Suzuki Roshi) was never very fluent in English, plus the nebulous nature of Zen ... plus a certain cultural tendency of Japanese public speakers and essayists to meander and wander like a blindfolded squirrel from topic to topic, sometimes barely linked together and with no set direction ... plus the attempts of their American students to cut and spice their recorded oral talks together into some kind of coherent whole ... and you end up with the style of a book like this.

    The effect can be lovely and powerful, as in "Zen Mind, Beginners Mind" ... and one will come across expressions or whole passages or pages of teachings of tremendous power. However, do not feel bad if it all seems very jumbled and disorganized. It is.

    Sometimes Zen Masters are mysterious in their expressions because the meaning is mysterious, nebulous, beyond words. Sometimes Zen Masters are mysterious because they are just not good at expressing what they want to say.

    Gassho, Jundo

  9. #9

    Re: Kiya, Just Arising or Arising Only

    Thanks again for the zenki videos, Jundo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    I'm reading Each Moment is the Universe: Zen and the Way of Being Time by Katagiri Roshi[.]
    It is a lovely, sacred mess.
    Agreed! I think that the riffing analogy is apt. I've yet to develop your ear, of course, and thus can't likely determine whether I'm listening to John Coltrane or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4UJkl6eaGQ[/video]]Nigel Tufnel using an untuned violin. However, I found that there are little passages that, at least for me, are more love than mess. (Not that mess can't be love and love mess.)

    [D]o not feel bad if it all seems very jumbled and disorganized. It is.
    Phew.

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