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Thread: Why I came back...

  1. #1
    disastermouse
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    Why I came back...

    I came back because I was asked to come back - maybe not by the management, but by someone favored by the management. I was told, "Hey - we need you at Treeleaf."

    Was it a joke? Maybe.


    Either way, I'm not needed here - you fine folks have a great time.

    Chet

  2. #2

    Re: Why I came back...

    Maybe the 'bad' forums need a 'troublemaker' the most?
    Hope you change your mind!

    Gassho,
    /Pontus

  3. #3

    Re: Why I came back...

    Well I for one hope you don't leave...hardly got to even know you.

    You seem both eloquent & intelligent and while maybe our personalities are different it could be mutually beneficial. How boring would life be if we were all the same.

    Gassho,
    Shawn

  4. #4

    Re: Why I came back...

    I don't think its a question of being needed or not. The question is, does Treeleaf help support the practice of studying myself? Many times a discussion topic here, or an explanation of something by Jundo or Taigu has helped me to clarify and deepen my understanding of something. Also the many links to books, videos, talks etc is a valuable resource. While I enjoy being entertained, that is just an occasional bonus. Don't expect anything, just be yourself. You can stir the pot but eventually everything settles down. As far as the Taigu / Stephanie exchange I did'nt see it as a big deal - just a minor correction opinion and she seemed to agree.

  5. #5
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Why I came back...

    I can be a troublemaker all by myself. If Zen in the West has taught us nothing else, can it not have taught us that the old 'know your place as a student' model of Zen transmission is hopelessly broken? It doesn't work. It doesn't work, it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Even in the best case scenario, a student puts all sorts of crazy shit all on the teacher and then gets disappointed when the teacher doesn't measure up. Hell, I'm not, nor have ever been called, a teacher and even I've been put in that place. That's hopelessly broken and it keeps a student from realizing that this waking up business isn't something that anyone needs to or even can give you.

    In the worst case scenario, a teacher succumbs to playing the role put upon him or her by the student and then we get Genpo. Or Richard Baker. Or Maezumi. Or Trungpa. Or......

    A new way needs to be found - and maybe a teacher is the absolute worst thing for your practice. Certainly, it's my opinion that a 'learn to be a student' teacher is most certainly harmful - and when Taigu is added to the long list of teachers associated with scandals - well, ya heard it here first. Once you embrace that sort of shit as legitimate and start arguing from authority - well, it's just too tempting to start rationalizing your every decision from a place of authority. The fact that we're all at a distance may make it a longer time coming, but it's coming.

    But you know what? I don't want to have to be the only guy who says it - and it's not good for my practice to have to keep saying it. I get attached to the message, I get destructive with my speech, I get sucked into a shitstorm that I'm sure some part of me must enjoy (seeing as I find myself in the middle of them so much, what other conclusion can be had?).

    So, being in the middle of shitstorms is not good for my practice. Being disruptive here is not necessarily good for your practice.

    Wouldn't it be so much better for me to just go sit zazen and leave you all to what you were previously enjoying?

    *Gassho*

    Chet

  6. #6

    Re: Why I came back...

    How many of us are "needed" on here? I know I'm not necessary for this sangha, nor do I feel the need to contribute to all discussions here.

    Sometimes I choose to, many times I don't. If I want to start a dialogue, I do. If I want to contribute, I do. Many times I just read.

    and the world keeps on turning

  7. #7

    Re: Why I came back...

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    "Hey - we need you at Treeleaf."
    We do for sure!
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Either way, I'm not needed here - you fine folks have a great time.
    If that means that you don't want to share with us anymore... it is sad and I hope I'm wrong.
    I don't always agree with you buddy but I like the way you put things... always another way to look at things...

    gassho,

  8. #8

    Re: Why I came back...

    Hello Chet! it has barely been hello, I'd rather not have it be 'good bye, fare-thee-well' so soon!
    You may have taken the gloves off, but you still have your hat and coat on!
    Come on!

    I really like the name Yakunezumi Pontus searched out for you (disaster mouse in Japanese)...

    May I use it?

    I too have thought teachers were full of shit or worse. But thinking it, feeling it, believing it doesn't necessarily make it so.
    I too have taken leave and never returned. I have also had a sitting group close and had to search for another and I have taken leave of and returned to a sangha to find that there was no going back... and only in going back could I have found that out. I have also left a sangha because I thought the teacher was incompetent, and I returned, because by golly, they were my teacher--incompetent or not...

    When Taigu said to Stephanie "be your own first student" this is true--at least from my own experience.

    I don't know where my edges are, I don't experience myself as having any until something comes up against them.
    The 'something' that comes up against them is instructive to me.
    "instructive to me" means it teaches me
    that which teaches me is a teacher to me (my neighbor's cat, my ripped paper grocery bag)
    'my' teacher in the formal zen sense is a formal arrangement between an accepted student and a recognized zen teacher with a lineage

    While neither Taigu or Jundo are 'my' teachers in the formal zen sense to me, they are zen teachers and they have zen students. It is not proper, not in any experience I have ever had at any zendo/temple/sitting group for a student, or for a guest attending sitting to ever tell a teacher or another student that they are full of shit.

    In my experience when whatever the person so 'full of it' said something reeking of it, the words were usually left to linger in the air. No comment was made. By anyone. At all. The teacher may made 'gassho,' (or if it was the teacher who was full of it, the person the teacher was directing comment to would make gassho; if comment was made to the group at large the group at large made gassho).*, **
    The sounds within the room and outside the room could be heard. The music of the ice cream truck, the crickets.

    (* By the way, when anyone said anything 'profound' or 'fitting,' the same response of gasshos of various and sundry persons to various and sundry persons occurred--in other words, it didn't matter what each of us thought of what was being said--it was accepted with thanks...)
    (** Where I sit now, there is no such gassho-ing after speakers speaking. At this time there is no formal teacher, we do have guest teacher/speakers).

    In real life, in face to face time, a teacher has available a myriad of ways to respond. My guess is you could benefit from such. I know I do. Am on the brink of deciding with whom to work with at this time. It is agonizing for me. But I do need a teacher.

    You Chet, teach me, and in fact, you are a mirror to me more than you might guess. When I was younger...well...I'm not any more!
    These days when people are abrasive I note 'abrasive' but it doesn't 'abrade' me. When people sicken me I note 'sickening' but I don't feel 'sick'. When people praise me I note 'praise' but I don't puff up and throw my chest out and swagger.

    When I am here it is the same as when I drive the LA freeways. I drive with all other drivers on the road with me. Sometimes I'm the one doing 75-80, sometimes I'm the one driving the posted limit. Someone cuts me off I listen to my internal response (You blankety blankety blank blank what the blank do you think you are blanking doing?) I listen to all my internal comments about those in front of me, to the sides of me, I see myself let people in and not let people in, I observe other's letting me in and not letting me in. I get to where I need to go. I feel my emotions, but my emotions aren't doing the driving.

    My participation here helps me: it is a place to talk about these 'zen buddhist' things (or daily life things in a 'zen buddhist' way). I don't have such a place anywhere else. Others have made comment that my participation is helpful to them. That makes me feel good.

    I have benefitted from your posts which have been of benefit to me. The posts that don't, well, they roll off me like water on a duck. I can say the same thing about all other people who post comments and start threads.

    Your particular perspective and view has a certain spiciness and I like spicy.
    Each one of us does have a certain flavor.
    As my own student I get to look at whose comments have particular appeal to me and why that is so, or what others say I don't particularly care for and why that is so. 'Cause 9 times out of 10 it isn't THEM as much as it is ME. They show me my edges. And I may not like it, but I can still thank them for it--how else would I get to know where and what the nature of my edges are? I have also had experiences of no-edges...

    So Chet, Yakuzenumi, may I take your coat and hat?

  9. #9

    Re: Why I came back...

    This whole thread remindes me of the story my mother used to tell me whenever I would tell her about a bad break up. About a couple who had been married for a while. One day the guy decides to leave the marriage. "You old cow! You bore me!" Slammed the door. The wife cried and cried. A week passed by. She heard a knock on the door. It was the ex. "Hey. I came back....to pick up my photo on the wall." He came in and picked up the photo. A week passed by. Same thing. Knock on the door. "I came to pick up the wire to hold the photo on the wall." Another week passed by. Knock on the door. It was him. "Hey. I came to pick up the nail on the wall." He waited there. The woman looked at him. After a couple of minutes of silence, he picked up the nail and left. A month passed by. The ex-wife had thought it was time to move on and start anew. Knock on the door. It was him. "Now what?! You took everything? What do you need!?". He stared. "Uh...I need a hammer." :mrgreen:

  10. #10
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    Re: Why I came back...

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    I came back because I was asked to come back - maybe not by the management, but by someone favored by the management. I was told, "Hey - we need you at Treeleaf."

    Was it a joke? Maybe.

    Either way, I'm not needed here - you fine folks have a great time.
    Chet,

    It wasn't a joke...of that I am sure.

    As I said in the other thread, if your main complaint is that there are discussions were aren't having that you'd like to see us have...THEN START ONE! Otherwise, and I say this will all due respect, SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP!

    And by sit down, I do mean sit HERE. I think the word "need" is a bit much, but I think I'll be better for your prescence than your abscence.

    Gassho,
    Dosho

    P.S. I just read what you posted in the Genpo thread and although I thought some of it was out of line, especially in reference to Taigu and Jinyu, you spoke your mind and that is good. However, even if you don't like Taigu's teachings and think teachers should be challenged, at least offer him the same amount of courtesy you'd offer a stranger...and then tell him he's full of it if you like. And just because you are ready to speak in such harsh tones does not mean others are ready with immediate responses. If you had been as harsh in your speech the first week I arrived as you were today I'm not sure I'd still be here. Would that have been the fault of your harshness or my being oversensitive? The fault would be mine and mine alone. Just please keep in mind that there are people here who need to be built up before they get torn down. And being civil is different from being timid and not speaking up when necessary...I trust you to keep us on our toes as to the difference.

  11. #11

    Re: Why I came back...

    So, being in the middle of shitstorms is not good for my practice. Being disruptive here is not necessarily good for your practice.

    Wouldn't it be so much better for me to just go sit zazen and leave you all to what you were previously enjoying?



    Hey, Chet? You're a valuable poster here. You were welcomed back warmly, and most of us here really like and respect you and your point of view. Even when you're prickly, you make me think. I personally don't want you to go. If you aren't getting something from being here, that's one thing, and it's something you can change just by starting discussions of your own. That said, ok, no one wants you to go. But really, man, with great respect, quit the drama, accept that you're liked and your ideas are respected, and start a thread about what you want to talk about, and accept that for a lot of us who just went through Jukai and all, it's a relaxed period where we're getting used to new things. If it's your role to shake things up, good. Do it. We probably need it. But what you've got going on here... it's just not you. Can you not have a conversation without being "disruptive" or starting a "shitstorm?" I bet you can, if you choose to. How you post, how you behave... It's entirely up to you.

  12. #12

    Re: Why I came back...

    Hi Chet,

    You are welcome here.

    Gassho, Jundo

  13. #13

    Re: Why I came back...

    Yes Chet, you are really welcome here.

    Gassho

    Taigu

  14. #14
    Treeleaf Unsui Shohei's Avatar
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    Re: Why I came back...

    Hi Chet
    You know how I feel.- I am glad to have you posting back here again.
    We have great conversations (ha for me only possible but what ever :P) on and off the forum but if its what you want to do, Do it.
    But do not do it if you think that
    i.) its what others want
    b.) your wreaking "some good thing" or good vibe... if you truly do, lol some one will say so.
    3.) not welcome

    That is not the case (As you can see above and probably below)

    Gassho
    Shohei

  15. #15
    Senior Member Nenka's Avatar
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    Re: Why I came back...

    Edit: Nevermind . . .

    What I mean to say is, I've never seen a situation like this on the internet handled in quite this way before. I think, for the first time, I do truly believe this is a sangha. And Chet, if you don't get how special this is, I don't know what to tell ya, brother. I suspect you don't need your defenses as much as you think you do.

    Gassho to you all.

    Jennifer

  16. #16
    Treeleaf Unsui Kyrillos's Avatar
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    Re: Why I came back...

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Wouldn't it be so much better for me to just go sit zazen and leave you all to what you were previously enjoying?
    Maybe!

    When I began to see your posts a short while ago, I was surprised but not particularly moved one way or the other. I was hopeful however that perhaps you would be able to bring your knowledge back to the forum without the acrid edge that so often was rather painful, at least to me. But I think that you really just need attention, positive or negative, it doesn't seem to matter which. Now you have opened the pity pot about how maybe you "really" were not wanted back, so everyone will tell you how much they want you here and to stay. You have also decided to poison the pot by making yourself to be some sort of scapegoat for some issue from the past, that none of the new folks have any idea about or care about. Chet, really it isn't all about you and how you see things: the Teachers, the Forum or any of the other people here. I for one really do not care. You do not affect my practice. BUT you do seem to create some turmoil for others, and for me that is not good; because after the turmoil, Chet, you leave no peace, no new understanding. Chaos may work for you. It seems hard on folks here. Disaster..indeed. So I, for one will not be one to beg and cajole you to stay or return. If you stay, stay; if you go, go. Just stop talking about it.

    Peace,

    Seishin Kyrill

  17. #17
    Senior Member Heisoku's Avatar
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    Re: Why I came back...

    Chet
    Your practice is your practice, my practice is my practice,Treeleaf is Treeleaf.
    What else do you need?

  18. #18
    Treeleaf Unsui Shokai's Avatar
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    Re: Why I came back...

    Chet;

    If you go into a Taoist Society Taichi dojo, you'll see a sign on the wall ( written in Chinese/Kanji script) and it roughly translates " If you wish to stay, Stay; if you wish to leave , Leave) and it is probably one of the first environments I ever experienced that made you feel truly welcome. And, when you do leave, they do not bug you to return.
    When you join other religious groups (for instance, you'll be asked over and over to do this or do that; have you found Jesus?/ didn't know he was lost!; contribute to this, contribute to that) Here, they just ask how you are doing in your practice. YOUR practice is for YOU and, as you deepen in it, it becomes apparent that it benefits everyone.
    Something I recently wrote on another thread suddenly seems very appropriate;
    being an asshole is not all that bad as long as you don't persist in thinking of yourself as one. Like opinions, every
    body has one but isn't inclined to want to look at the other guy's. To quote a line from one of the latest movies, "The Social
    Network", "You're really a nice person. You're not an asshole, you're just trying too hard to be one."

  19. #19

    Re: Why I came back...

    One think is for sure Chet you wake everyone up and make shit happen. I really enjoy it! Gassho, Zak

  20. #20
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
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    Re: Why I came back...

    Well, I still haven't read all what's going on on Treeleaf, but I do agree we are all our own students.

    So Chet, stay a while. Lets all learn together. If something bothers you, well you can sit on it and understand. Isn't that what zazen is all about?

    Gassho

  21. #21
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Why I came back...

    Quote Originally Posted by chocobuda
    Well, I still haven't read all what's going on on Treeleaf, but I do agree we are all our own students.

    So Chet, stay a while. Lets all learn together. If something bothers you, well you can sit on it and understand. Isn't that what zazen is all about?

    Gassho
    This was just a temper tantrum. I'm embarrassed, but I still have them. Read the reintroduction.

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