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Thread: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

  1. #1

    SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    .
    For the next few "sit-a-longs", I'm going to revive a series from awhile back on WHATSA BODHISATTVA, looking at some of the greats ... Avalokite?vara (Kannon), Samantabhadra and others. Before, we looked at each of the traditional Virtues, the 'Perfections' of a Bodhisattva ...

    http://www.treeleaf.org/cgi-bin/mt/mt-s ... 2&limit=20

    Today, though, let's talk about the Devil, Satan, Mara, Evil ...

    Oh, I believe in the Devil! Bodhisattvas too.

    Today’s Sit-A-Long video follows at this link. Remember: recording ends soon after the beginning bells; a sitting time of 20 to 35 minutes is recommended.



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLX2Deb2erQ[/video]]
    .

  2. #2

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Thank you for this Jundo.

    I had heard you talking to the visitors at last night's Zazenkai about the bodhisattvas and was happy to see this thread this morning.

    I have to admit I have much confusion on this topic so looking forward to learning more.

    Gassho,

    Shawn

  3. #3
    Treeleaf Unsui Shokai's Avatar
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    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Ahh, to be a hi-tech Bodhisattva ! Jundo-oso, I love your passion and inspiration. Thank you and Please keep it coming!!

  4. #4

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by shards
    Thank you for this Jundo.
    I have to admit I have much confusion on this topic so looking forward to learning more.
    I'm looking forward too.

    I also enjoyed the idea of not rushing to read a book, just picking a few paragraphs and let it rest. I tend to read any book as if it was a detective novel, rushing to reach the end and read "who did it"

    Gassho

    Rimon

  5. #5
    Senior Member Heisoku's Avatar
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    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Thank you Jundo.
    I have a list of Upaya's as countermeasures against those negative elements above my desk.
    Just to keep reminding myself, again and again and again!

  6. #6
    Senior Member Nenka's Avatar
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    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Like Shawn, I have a lot of confusion with this too.

    Aren't we supposed to be dropping all thoughts of "good" and "evil"? Or is this one of those "two sides of a no-sided mouth" kinda things?

    Gassho

    Jennifer

  7. #7

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Small FYI to this...

    I have some stuff to do around the house today so I thought I'd convert the 11 talks from 2009 Jundo referenced in this thread to be on our podcast. Here's the link in case anyone else would like a listen:

    http://treeleaf.podbean.com/2009/

    iTunes should show up in a day or so (they are sometimes slow on updating their podcast info).

    Gassho,

    Shawn

  8. #8

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer G P
    Like Shawn, I have a lot of confusion with this too.

    Aren't we supposed to be dropping all thoughts of "good" and "evil"? Or is this one of those "two sides of a no-sided mouth" kinda things?

    Gassho

    Jennifer
    If I may:

    Good and evil are relative, not absolute. As the saying goes, "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter". The words have no fixed meaning.

    Even still, there are deplorable actions in the world. So yes, more than likely the no-sided mouth as I myself have become confused while typing this :P

    Anyways!

    Gassho.

  9. #9

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    The Buddha said: Do good, do no harm, still your mind.

    But as Taylor pointed out, there are few people who do evil for evils sake other than in James Bond movies. They do it out of the three poisons, greed, hate and ignorance. Is the suicide bomber evil? He probably thinks of himself as a self-sacrificing hero and freedom fighter. No bad karma in suicide bombing, is there..?

    In order to do good and avoid doing harm, must we not try to see dharmas for what they are, and try not to discriminate into good and bad, desirable and non-desirable? This is why we practice isn't it? Learning how to do good, do no harm, still our minds.

    I'm looking forward to Jundo's response!

    Gassho,
    Pontus

  10. #10

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Taylor wrote:
    "Good and evil are relative, not absolute."

    BTW, can the Mara be viewed as absolute evil and the Buddha as absolute compassion?

  11. #11

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Yes, two sides of the no-sided mouth.

    Here is my very simple minded view on this ...

    There is a realm encountered in dropping all human judgments of "right vs. wrong" "good vs. evil" "justice and injustice" and all the rest ... whereby everything is Right Where It Is, and there is thus a Peace of One-Piece which sweeps in all "peace and war". Putting aside all human weighing of "justice" and "injustice" ... there is a great Justice of Things Just As They Are. Beyond seeing a world of "life and death", there is that flowing stream that was never born and never dies (as human judgments of "starts and finishes" fall away). No "you and me" there or (seen from another angle) there are "you and me" constantly being "born and dying" ... and that is Okay, for all is Just the Great Going.

    This is often called the "Buddha Realm". Nirvana.

    But, also, we live in a world of you and me, birth and death, war and peace, great good and great evil, justice and injustice. Samsara.

    We may encounter Samsara as Just Nirvana ... but Samsara is Samsara nonetheless. We live in this complicated world of "war and peace" and all the rest, and much of what we make of it, and our lives, is up to us.

    I agree that, in this world, so many questions of ethics and "right and wrong" may be gray areas, with few blacks and whites. One man's "terrorist" or "senseless war" may be another's "freedom fighter" and "revolution" ... one man's "cancer" may also be just nature's way of keeping species evolution rolling along ... one man's "armed robbery" may also be someone trying to feed a hungry family.

    Other "evils" may be a bit clearer. Violent rape and child abuse seem as clear evils (even if we see the abuser as, perhaps, just a scarred victim of past abuse himself). Selling drugs to kids is hard to justify. Mass slaughter of innocents is also hard to justify (Oh, I am sure that some "devils advocate" could lawyer up a "positive side" to even that! ... Maybe its good effect on population control or the like! :twisted: ) Even if we know that the child abuser or rapist is too just a victim of "greed, anger and ignorance", we can still put the person in jail or take other steps to keep the innocent victims safe. (We should see everyone here as a "victim" of greed, anger and ignorance ... and should avoid additional anger ourselves ... but we can take action to step the evil nonetheless).

    I believe that the Buddhist Precepts generally guide us toward a world and life where we live in peace, avoiding anger and violence. We do not steal, or take in excess. Likewise, we live in a world where everyone should have a right to a peaceful life, with sufficient food, a roof over their head, access to medical care and education (this is my interpretation of the Precepts). I do not think that the Precepts always give us a "black/white" answer on every ethical question (as shown by our very many "gray areas" encountered as we were preparing for Jukai). But I do believe that they point us generally in the right direction, and offer very clear "rights and wrongs" on so many questions.

    About to stick a needle in your arm, or miss the AA meeting and hit the bottle? The Precepts offer a solid guide in what should be done and not done. About to fly off the handle and hit someone with a baseball bat? The Precepts offer a solid guide in what not to do. About to rob a bank just to buy a new tv ... the Precepts offer a solid guide ... etc. etc.

    We are to free ourselves of greed, anger and ignorance ... and do good, avoiding evil as best we can ...

    ... all while dropping all thought of "Good" and "Evil" ... knowing that Realm free of Greed, Anger and Ignorance. ALL AT ONCE!

    Something like that (I have the flu today. Rather bad for me, good for the virus :shock: )

    Gassho, J

  12. #12

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    I often wonder if the Devil is none other than our wanton Self. As the self takes hold and matures so too does the Devil. Thank you Jundo for this most provoking "sit-a-long." Gassho, Zak

  13. #13

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Thanks Jundo,
    _()_
    Peter

  14. #14
    Senior Member Ronchan's Avatar
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    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Yes, I think you are right, Jundo: we need the devil, we need evil.
    Because I believe Buddha might have been thinking along these lines when he said " There has to be evil so that good can prove its purity above it".
    I'm not always happy with that, this almost mandatory presence of evil. It makes people feel restless, anxious and generates this general feeling of 'bad things' that will probably/certainly happen at some point. To me as well as to others ...

    But Buddha also said " When one has the feeling of dislike for evil, when one feels tranquil, one finds pleasure in listening to good teachings; when one has these feelings and appreciates them, one is free of fear".

    Well...what can I say? Thank you for your good teachings, Jundo sensei,

    Deep bows,
    Ronald.

  15. #15

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronchan
    Yes, I think you are right, Jundo: we need the devil, we need evil.
    Because I believe Buddha might have been thinking along these lines when he said " There has to be evil so that good can prove its purity above it".
    I'm not always happy with that, this almost mandatory presence of evil. It makes people feel restless, anxious and generates this general feeling of 'bad things' that will probably/certainly happen at some point. To me as well as to others ...

    But Buddha also said " When one has the feeling of dislike for evil, when one feels tranquil, one finds pleasure in listening to good teachings; when one has these feelings and appreciates them, one is free of fear".

    Well...what can I say? Thank you for your good teachings, Jundo sensei,

    Deep bows,
    Ronald.
    Well, certainly if we did not have "good and evil", we would be lacking the choice and free will that makes humans human. It might not be the way I would have designed things if I were the boss of the universe (I would eliminate a few things ... child abuse for one ... while keeping the rest of our 'free will'). But, because we are not rocks, we are not trees ... we have the power to think, choose, needlessly hurt and kill ... or choose not.

    I am hoping that we can soon manage to remove child abuse and such from our world, war and hunger and some other things too. Then, gee, it will be a pretty good world if ya think about it. Like an old house that is a "fixer upper", but is lovely once the work is done.

    Anyway ... let's be good.

    Gassho, J

  16. #16
    Treeleaf Unsui Shokai's Avatar
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    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    John Lenon was probably thinking that when he wrote "Imagine."

    Imagine if all sentient beings were loving, grateful and kind;
    Just Like Louis Armstrong sang, "What a Wonderful World" it would be.

  17. #17
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Hi all,

    We need evil? We need the devil? I'm not sure I understand this and some of your words make my point for me. I think evil is the word we give to behavior and intention that we do not understand. I can think of few if any examples of "evil" that can not be explained by such unbearable pain that the mind has turned against human nature. Hitler, often used as an example of pure evil, was abused, neglected, and never encouraged in his one true passion as a youth: painting. If he had been, would he have become "evil"? I'm not sure, but I would like to think not.

    Child abuse is of course a terrible, awful thing that I hope anyone would choose to eliminate from the universe if we could. But we can't! And I think it is our discomfort with such things that tends to put them in such absolute terms like "evil". Are people who abuse children evil? I don't think so...I believe they are very sick and probably needed help and did not receive it. Many were abused themselves and don't know any other way of existing on this Earth. Does that make them evil? I really do not believe that to be the case.

    The human mind aches to classify things in a thumbs up, thumbs down manner and "good vs. evil" provides its own yummy candy where it can create absolute categories that describe things easily and simply. But as we all know life is not simple. I've said it before, but if I had a time machine and could go back in time I wouldn't kill Hitler as others have stated. I'd give his younger self a scholarship to the Academy of Fine Arts in Vienna, cure his brother's measles, and tell his father to let him follow his dreams. Killing him would do nothing but destroy the early promise of any youth and the history books would likely find someone else to take his place. Would evil have been destroyed? No...just a little boy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    we have the power to think, choose, needlessly hurt and kill ... or choose not
    If only this were true. Some do not have the ability to do these things or to be "good" and the quest to be such can drive those with mental illness even further into their pain and suffering. Is it possible to stop this classification of good and evil? I doubt it...but can we at least just go with compassion for even the most vile acts for at least a short while and see how that feels?

    Gassho,
    Dosho

  18. #18

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Dosho
    Is it possible to stop this classification of good and evil? I doubt it...but can we at least just go with compassion for even the most vile acts for at least a short while and see how that feels?
    We can try!
    Thank you for this Dosho, and for thanks to Jundo.

    gassh,
    Jinyu

  19. #19

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Dosho
    If only this were true. Some do not have the ability to do these things or to be "good" and the quest to be such can drive those with mental illness even further into their pain and suffering. Is it possible to stop this classification of good and evil? I doubt it...but can we at least just go with compassion for even the most vile acts for at least a short while and see how that feels?

    Gassho,
    Dosho
    Thank you, Dosho. This is a very important reminder.

    We must never lose the perspective wherein even the violent rapist and child abuser is himself a victim of greed, anger and ignorance, and perhaps himself a product of the Karma of past greed, anger and ignorance inflicted on him years before in his own youth (I use the male "him" here, but I refer to anyone). The real "evil doer" is greed, anger and ignorance.

    That does not mean, by the way, that society does not need to take steps to prevent or stop the rapist or child abuser and the like, even if the rapist and abuser is himself a "victim." In my view, if necessary, take the most extreme of these folks, throw them in a cell (with all human rights, of course) and throw away the key if that is what is needed to get them "off the streets" and away from kids and such. Personally, I favor treating those who do violent crimes such as rape, child abuse and cruel violence as ultimately medical and psychiatric cases ... and I do not think our prisons are the appropriate grounds for dealing with these issues. I hope we can, someday, cure the tendency toward violent crime much as we cure many neurological conditions ... with a proper understanding of the brain, hormones, and the like. However, until we get to that point where we can find a "medicine to cure child abuse" ... we need to lock these people up. A policeman is justified in taking life if reasonably believed necessary to save lives ... even if taking life is best avoided if at all possible. That is my view (and of most Buddhists I know too ... a subject discussed in greater detail during our Precept's study on "Preserving Life") ...

    viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2969

    But, even in doing all that ... we must never lose sight that the real "evil doer" is greed, anger and ignorance ... not the person doing the evil.

    On the other hand, Buddhism has always upheld that we are each responsible for our own Karma, our own choices and volitional acts. Maybe Hitler was just a victim of greed, anger and ignorance and the Karmic scars of a horrible childhood ... but Hitler was also responsible for his acts if he had a choice and sense of wrong and the pain he was inflicting on others. (This is not unlike that criminal law in most western countries, which typically provides that criminals are responsible for their intentional acts unless they were so insane at the time as to be beyond knowing "right from wrong" completely ... beyond awareness of the harm caused by the act ... such as a true psychopath. Such cases are actually quite rare.)

    Finally, I hope that victims of child abuse or rape (the abused child or raped woman) can learn to let the past go ... learn to see their abuser as himself a victim ... move forward so that the violence does not repeat into the next generation. I hope that they come to see the real culprit as "greed, anger and ignorance." HOWEVER, I often also counsel that it is not so easy ... that there are real scars from these events, not all seen on the skin. While letting the past go, trying to not fall into new anger ... one must sometimes also see the scar as the scar sometimes, recognize that it is natural to feel anger and resentment at the attacker ... even as one tries to forgive on some level, see the "real evil" on some level, not be trapped by the anger and resentment and let it go.

    Anyway, I wandered a bit off the topic here ...

    Gassho, J

  20. #20
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    On the other hand, Buddhism has always upheld that we are each responsible for our own Karma, our own choices and volitional acts. Maybe Hitler was just a victim of greed, anger and ignorance and the Karmic scars of a horrible childhood ... but Hitler was also responsible for his acts if he had a choice and sense of wrong and the pain he was inflicting on others. (This is not unlike that criminal law in most western countries, which typically provides that criminals are responsible for their intentional acts unless they were so insane at the time as to be beyond knowing "right from wrong" completely ... beyond awareness of the harm caused by the act ... such as a true psychopath. Such cases are actually quite rare.)
    Certainly I would never have argued that Hitler should be simply forgiven for his crimes or taken to a psychiatric hospital without punishment....or that a child abuser should go free and be unaccounted for because he (or she) was abused as a child. And I would never ask a victim of such people to let go of their pain easily or otherwise. All I hope is that in the midst of so much greed, anger, and ignorance that there be just a small spark of compassion, if nothing else to see where our own feelings and thoughts could lead us. I think just a moment of compassion for those thought of as evil would do a lot of good in this world.

  21. #21

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Dosho
    I think just a moment of compassion for those thought of as evil would do a lot of good in this world.
    Dosho, I so much agree. We must hold compassion, offer Metta, even for Hitler, society's worst enemies and those that hurt terribly us and others. They are still sentient beings and, if not filled with delusion, would not be who they are.

    I just stumbled on this article, which ties in ...

    Kids' brains may hold clues to future criminals

    http://pagingdrgupta.blogs.cnn.com/2011 ... /?hpt=Sbin

    Who is going to grow up to become a criminal or psychopath?

    Current research in genetics and neuroscience may point towards answers to this question, opening up a whole host of ethical questions about culpability, justice and treatment.

    "Is there truly freedom of will, as the law assumes? Freedom of will may not be as free as many of us may think," said Adrian Raine of the University of Pennsylvania.

    Experiments by Raine have found that by looking at the brains of 3-year-old children, scientists could already see signs of potential trouble in the future. Raine discussed this research Monday at the American Association for the Advancement of Science annual meeting in Washington.

    Those who had poor amygdala function at that time were more likely to become criminal offenders later in life, in the 20-year time span during which the scientists followed them. The amygdala is an almond-shaped brain area associated with fear, and it appears that a trend among offenders is that fear conditioning is impaired. Researchers did not directly measure amygdala function in a brain scanner, but used the children's fear responses to an anticipated punishment as a proxy for that.

    In fact, adult psychopaths appear to have an 18% reduction of the volume of the amygdala compared with non-psychopaths. This difference might explain why psychopaths lack remorse, fear and guilt. (Interestingly, white-collar criminals actually show enhanced brain function in decision-making and other cognitive skills, according to Raine's unpublished research).

    He also noted that a brain region called the orbital frontal cortex tends to be associated with being antisocial when its volume is smaller; as a group, men have a smaller orbital frontal cortex than women, which may help explain why men as a whole tend to commit more crimes than women.

    Raine is not saying that this is a perfect predictive tool; it's not going to point to which individual child is going to commit a crime. Moreover, all of the data he reports is correlational, meaning he hasn't proven that these brain abnormalities cause criminal behavior. But it doesn't seem to make as much sense to think that living a criminal lifestyle would cause impaired fear conditioning, as it would the other way around, he said.

    There is also evidence that what psychologists call "callous-unemotional traits" in childhood are risk factors for becoming a psychopath. Such traits include a lack of guilt about wrongdoings, absence of feelings or emotions, unhelpfulness to someone in need and unkindness to other children.

    New research in the Journal of Abnormal Psychology, also presented at the conference, looked at more than 9,500 children when they were ages 7, 9 and 12 from the United Kingdom's Twin Early Development Study. Researchers led by Natalie Fontaine at Indiana University showed that children who had hyperactivity, peer problems and emotional problems at 12 years old tended to have had increased levels of such callous-unemotional traits and conduct problems earlier in childhood.

    Because participants were twins, the researchers were also able to look at genetics, and found a strong heritability for boys with high levels of persistent callous-unemotional traits. For girls with these traits that did not change much over time, environmental factors seemed to be more important.

    We can look at these associations, but biology and genetics are not destiny. There will never be a perfectly accurate predictor of who will grow up to be an offender, Raine said. And 80% of delinquent adolescents do not continue to offend in adulthood, said Dustin Pardini of University of Pittsburgh Medical Center.

    But by better understanding how these behaviors developed, early interventions can be adjusted to specific needs, Fontaine said.

    The question from all of this becomes: If psychopaths are the way they are because of brain abnormalities or genetic influences already apparent in childhood, and should they be punished as to the same degree as other criminals?

    And if they should get special treatment, "Is that not a slippery slope toward Armageddon, where none of us are responsible for our actions, because all actions and behaviors come from our brain?" Raine said.

    The extent to which biological factors should play a role in the justice system is an open and highly controversial question, as is the extent to which biological interventions should be developed to reduce crime, Raine said. Preliminary research has shown that omega-3 may reduce criminal offending in prison; this is just one line of future inquiry.

    What do you think: If neurological and genetic factors out of a person's control contribute to criminal offending, do we need to rethink how they are punished? If we punish people to deter others from committing crimes, does that make sense if psychopaths aren't afraid of t

  22. #22
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Thanks for this article Jundo...very interesting.

  23. #23

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Quote Originally Posted by Dosho
    I think just a moment of compassion for those thought of as evil would do a lot of good in this world.
    Dosho, I so much agree. We must hold compassion, offer Metta, even for Hitler, society's worst enemies and those that hurt terribly us and others. They are still sentient beings and, if not filled with delusion, would not be who they are.
    Thank you, its so true ... stuffed with delusion, every little
    transformation of delusion is so important, a never-ending task,
    _()_
    Peter

  24. #24

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Abso-bloody-lutely Dosho, I agree wholehartedly with everything you said.

  25. #25

    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Watching my Mom change from Alzheimer’s, I have come to realize just how significantly brain chemistry can affect not only memory, but basic personality. I can imagine that a lot of “evil” behavior may be attributable to brain disorders. I’m sure that there is probably a point where strength of will is not enough to overcome a chemical disorder. To the best of our ability, we should try to help cure such conditions once symptoms become unmanageable. Barring the current ability to help heal the physical condition, it may be necessary to take humane and caring precautions to protect others.
    Gassho, Grace.

  26. #26
    Senior Member Hoyu's Avatar
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    Re: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: LIVING DEVIL

    Thank you Jundo Sensei for reviving this WHATSA BODHISATTVA series.

    Gassho,
    John

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