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Thread: 11/5 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Kumarata

  1. #1

    11/5 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Kumarata

    Hi,

    As many folks around Treeleaf may know, my own Practice is not centered on questions of Rebirth. In truth, I am rather skeptical of traditional, very literal visions of Rebirth ... although I do believe that we are, each and all, reborn in each passing moment. I also believe that the most important point ... literal rebirth or not ... is how we are living in this life here and now, the heavens and hells we can create in our own life and for those around us here and now.

    (if anyone would like to read more personal musings on the subjects of Karma and Rebirth, please have a look here):

    viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1281
    and
    viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1429

    It is interesting to me that Master Keizan, writing with a worldview of the early 14th century, begins Ven. Kumarata's story with a traditional tale of Rebirth ... yet seems to step away from that in his "Teisho" teaching to a view in which "birth" and "death" are not as we usually think they are ...

    He describes "knowledge of former lives" as not a matter of seeing the past or future, but finding one's original Self-nature that is "neither saintly nor ordinary, neither deluded or enlightened" ... beyond "ancient" or "present" ... timeless. As the Heart Sutra chants, "not born, not destroyed, not stained, not pure." Master Keizan closes, "Understanding that [Original Mind] is the original bright light is the meaning of 'acquiring knowledge of former lives'".

    From such perspective, future lives and past lives become a 'non-question'.

    COOK p 113
    HIXON p 104

  2. #2

    Re: 11/5 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Kumarata

    Hiyas

    From such perspective, future lives and past lives become a 'non-question'.
    The imagery of the mudra and of the stream in Hixon's book opened my eyes abit. Very good!

    Kumarata meets the Buddha at his door and meets his Original face, the Old fellow. In this way Kumarata awakens to reality of the timeless boundless knowledge of buddhas, compassion and wisdom, as Hixon put it, no separate "knower" or known. In this, the understanding of all past life times is no longer in the past, nor vainly reached for in the future!

    Master Keizan's verse in Cook's

    In past lives he cast off one body after another -

    through peeling off, or seeing through, the the layers of the 3 poisons - greed, anger and delusion -moreover, recognizing them, is ripe for the
    direct encounter with Gayashata.


    Right now he encounters the Old Fellow -

    realizes the knowledge that is always present, realizes his true self.

    or, well, that is my limited understanding I will put forth.

    Gassho
    Shohei

  3. #3

    Re: 11/5 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Kumarata

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Hi,

    As many folks around Treeleaf may know, my own Practice is not centered on questions of Rebirth. In truth, I am rather skeptical of traditional, very literal visions of Rebirth ... although I do believe that we are, each and all, reborn in each passing moment. I also believe that the most important point ... literal rebirth or not ... is how we are living in this life here and now, the heavens and hells we can create in our own life and for those around us here and now.

    (if anyone would like to read more personal musings on the subjects of Karma and Rebirth, please have a look here):

    viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1281
    and
    viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1429

    It is interesting to me that Master Keizan, writing with a worldview of the early 14th century, begins Ven. Kumarata's story with a traditional tale of Rebirth ... yet seems to step away from that in his "Teisho" teaching to a view in which "birth" and "death" are not as we usually think they are ...

    He describes "knowledge of former lives" as not a matter of seeing the past or future, but finding one's original Self-nature that is "neither saintly nor ordinary, neither deluded or enlightened" ... beyond "ancient" or "present" ... timeless. As the Heart Sutra chants, "not born, not destroyed, not stained, not pure." Master Keizan closes, "Understanding that [Original Mind] is the original bright light is the meaning of 'acquiring knowledge of former lives'".

    From such perspective, future lives and past lives become a 'non-question'.

    COOK p 113
    HIXON p 104

    Jundo,
    For me, this has become your most significant post and teaching. The Light has been transmitted throughout Treeleaf before the reading. The Silent Ocean has befriended manifested body after manifested body without restriction of title or time. To me, It now has become the link in the chain of oneness to all things. Future lives or past lives no longer a question.

    This body falling
    Like silent rain drops
    Absorbed by a silent sea
    Captain waiting ...


    Original Nature
    . . .
    gassho zak

  4. #4

    Re: 11/5 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Kumarata

    Birth and Death are just ideas if the mind. Everything is in constant flow, and our previous lives are just another idea of this mind. If we understand ourselves as the One, than what previous lives should be there? Kumarata's great fortune is to meet the right teacher, a right word at the right time can do wonder. Sorry, if I come like a teacher, I not intend to be one, however, this is what my mind says about this weeks reading.
    _()_
    Peter

  5. #5
    Senior Member AlanLa's Avatar
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    Re: 11/5 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Kumarata

    I always start with Keizan, and this time it was with an "uh-oh" as he talked about Kumarata being reborn in these different realms, but at the end it was just "oh!" I very much appreciated how he reconceptualized "acquiring knowledge of former lives." And in Hixon I liked how Kumarata ceased to be a particular being in a particular lifetime and went from being a mind stream to a mind ocean. Life (or lives) and death seem absolute in this realm of form, but it really is bigger than all of that, absolutely bigger even than all the oceans.

  6. #6

    Re: 11/5 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Kumarata

    "Kumarata is taken instantly to the source of I hear and I speak , to the source of personal identity and personal agency."

    Buddha gave us the tools and basic truths to help us find this primary point for ourselves.

    /Rich

  7. #7

    Re: 11/5 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Kumarata

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    It is interesting to me that Master Keizan, writing with a worldview of the early 14th century, begins Ven. Kumarata's story with a traditional tale of Rebirth ... yet seems to step away from that in his "Teisho" teaching to a view in which "birth" and "death" are not as we usually think they are ...
    I heard a story about the Dali Lama talking to an assembly of Christians that went something like the following. Tibetan Buddhist have it easy as they have many life times to “get it right.” On the other hand, Christians have a much more difficult path as they only have one lifetime before a final judgment is cast. For us Zen folks you could spin this a variety of ways, but one might be that we only have this “moment.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Shohei
    The imagery of the mudra and of the stream in Hixon's book opened my eyes abit. Very good!
    Yes I liked this imagery as well. Sort of like “shaking hands” upon meeting an “old friend”, using another symbol from this passage.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanLa
    And in Hixon I liked how Kumarata ceased to be a particular being in a particular lifetime and went from being a mind stream to a mind ocean. Life (or lives) and death seem absolute in this realm of form, but it really is bigger than all of that, absolutely bigger even than all the oceans.
    Yes another point I enjoyed….wiping away all notions of a “self” and duality. “Empty, bright, marvelously vast.”

    Gassho,
    Jisen/BrianW

  8. #8

    Re: 11/5 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Kumarata

    Hi.

    Simply by meeting me. These words of Light mark the precise momnet of transmission. This is not the indirect encounter of two persons but the direct meeting of identity. Both thumbs belong to the same body. This is clearly known, not a mystery.
    This is one analogy that i really am going to use, as it, in my humble understanding, hit the mark beautifully, perfectly even.

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen

  9. #9
    Treeleaf Unsui Kyrillos's Avatar
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    Re: 11/5 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Kumarata

    Funny how it seems the image of the mudra, or rather the image of the two thumbs of the opposite hands touching, has come to the fore for several of us. The hand of one master layd on the hand of another and their thumbs touch; is it one pair of hands or two. It is like the moment of transmission that was captured by Michelangelo in "The Creation of Adam" on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. It is a "divine" moment when the spark is really neither here nor there, not with this master or that, not with God or Adam; it just is...the IS! I believe that I am beginning to get a view, although only really from "just around the corner" of the moment when this transmission of light occurs. Like on the Sistine Chapel ceiling that moment is always frozen in time, and yet in the instant of the touch of one's thumbs it abides forever.

    Gassho,

    Seishin Kyrill

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