Itchy nose, achy leg, earthquake ... when to move, when not?

[Jundo]

Hi Guys,

Here is my perspective on sitting with itchy noses, aching legs and backs, crawly spiders and such ...

Let me mention first that one day I was sitting at Sojiji (head temple of Soto Zen in Japan) in a 150 year old wooden building, with rafters nibbled by termites and with an overly heavy roof, when a big earthquake hit ... the roof is swaying. Everyone but me was Japanese. I looked around to see if folks would run for the door ... nobody moved from Zazen or even looked around but me! There is a great cultural tendency in Japanese culture to just "bear up" with pain and disturbances, and I have rarely if ever seen an experienced Japanese sitter move, shift legs or scratch during Zazen. In fact, my Japanese dentist tells me that there are two main difference between his Western patients and Japanese patients: (1) Westerners ask a lot more questions about the dental procedure and everything else; (2) Westerners moan and scream much more easily. :shock:

So, I have to balance my recommendations by taking into consideration what is just "Japanese culture", what is "Zen teachings", and what may be "BOTH"!

Generally, our Way of Shikantaza Zazen is about "just sitting" with whatever is, just how it is. As in life-in-general, not every moment is peaches and cream, fun and games. So, it is wonderful Practice for us to sit with discomforts, pain, annoyances. We drop all thought of the words "discomfort", "pain", "annoyance", "like" "dislike" "good" "bad" ... and just sit with what is.

On the other hand, the Buddha's way was never one of masochism or asceticism, complete denial of the body. In fact, ours is the Middle Way, the path of moderation in all things. Furthermore, we do not harm the body.

Thus, my advice is to just "sit with" the itches, discomforts and spiders (unless a highly poisonous spider!) . Note it, then move back to open, spacious sitting. In fact, you will find that the more your mind fixates on it, and thinks about it, the more of a problem it becomes. By not thinking about it, the so-called "problem" may even fade away on its own, or not be experienced as a problem.

But if you reach the point that there is truly the risk of harm to the body, then please give a small "Gassho" and discreetly and quietly change position (even do your Zazen standing or do Kinhin walking), or move the giant killer spider away.

Furthermore, our Way is not about ALWAYS having discomfort, so if your legs or back hurt all the time, you may have to change your sitting position or wait for your legs and back to adjust. We do not sit with leg pain every day or most days.

But, on the other-other hand, if you have a physical condition that means you ALWAYS have pain and there is absolutely no way to avoid that (for example, if you have arthritis that is always there), you just sit with that. You allow it, not thinking "good" or "bad".

You have to decide for yourself when is the time to sit with the ache or spider, when is the time not to.

Oh, and in case of earthquake ... I recommend "duck and cover" Zazen under a table, with one's Zafu placed over one's head! Notice the small prayer of "holding gratitude" at the end too.



Gassho, Jundo

PS- Wonderful true story about the Dali Lama and a mosquito, ...

[Mp]

Thanks for this Jundo ... the funny thing that happens to me is I can sit without any problems, but after 30 mins my right leg always goes to sleep. Then I practice the one foot kinhin.

[murasaki]

I have been extremely fidgety in my zazen recently. I know if I try to stop it, or ignore it,I will give up. So I have been indulging in scratching most of my itches and letting myself fidget and resettle so I at least don't have to abandon the sitting altogether. It wasn't always this bad, just a few itches here and there. I'm a bit of a mess lately...

Gassho
Julia

[Joyo]

Thank you, for this, Jundo. Exactly what I needed to hear, and what I need to practice today.

Gassho,
Joyo

[Tai Shi]

Say three years into this I’m finding I can discreetly fold my legs under my chair while remaining upright, sometimes changing position in a small way, and still sit Zazen. As Jundo has said there is no bad sitting, but there is non-sitting. A priest-in-training taught me to breath like a cow chewing its cud, another to sit for 10 minute segments, still another not to focus always on my self. So I would say let it happen. There is no bad sitting so ZAZEN is just sitting, so I just sit.

Tai Shi
sat today
Gassho


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[Jundo]

Say three years into this I’m finding I can discreetly fold my legs under my chair while remaining upright, sometimes changing position in a small way, and still sit Zazen. As Jundo has said there is no bad sitting, but there is non-sitting. A priest-in-training taught me to breath like a cow chewing its cud, another to sit for 10 minute segments, still another not to focus always on my self. So I would say let it happen. There is no bad sitting so ZAZEN is just sitting, so I just sit.

Tai Shi
sat today
Gassho


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[Beldame]

This thread has been helpful to me-thanks.

As I am only barely underway with sitting, I have been sitting very modest amounts of time...and in the ‘Burmese’ position. In the first weeks I had noticed one upper-leg was very tight and uncomfortable, but no horrible pain. I am no ascetic and not even a stoic, and it still seemed reasonable to ‘just sit’ with the moderate discomfort as, over a few days, I worked up to fifteen minutes of sitting. Very gentle with myself....

Then I woke up one morning with so much pain in those exact same tight muscles, I could barely walk. Still recovering, I have now switched to a version of using the zafu as a seiza bench pretty much as demonstrated by Jundo in one of the lessons for beginners, though angling my foot in peculiar ways. (Also contemplating whether I don’t need a return to gym ‘practice’ to supplement the sitting one I am trying to develop.)

I know one does not sit to obtain anything, but I have at least gotten a big belly laugh from a colleague telling him that I injured myself meditating.

Gassho—
Deborah

SatToday

[Jundo]

This thread has been helpful to me-thanks.

As I am only barely underway with sitting, I have been sitting very modest amounts of time...and in the ‘Burmese’ position. In the first weeks I had noticed one upper-leg was very tight and uncomfortable, but no horrible pain. I am no ascetic and not even a stoic, and it still seemed reasonable to ‘just sit’ with the moderate discomfort as, over a few days, I worked up to fifteen minutes of sitting. Very gentle with myself....

Then I woke up one morning with so much pain in those exact same tight muscles, I could barely walk. Still recovering, I have now switched to a version of using the zafu as a seiza bench pretty much as demonstrated by Jundo in one of the lessons for beginners, though angling my foot in peculiar ways. (Also contemplating whether I don’t need a return to gym ‘practice’ to supplement the sitting one I am trying to develop.)

I know one does not sit to obtain anything, but I have at least gotten a big belly laugh from a colleague telling him that I injured myself meditating.

Gassho—
Deborah

SatToday

Yes, Deborah, learn from your own body. Sometimes it is just a matter of time and stretching, and sometimes best to change postures. In any case, a trip to the gym and some stretching sounds like a good suggestion. The posture, in our way of sitting, is not meant to be torture, but simply a balanced, stable, comfortable way to sit.

I will sit today for the healing of your upper-leg.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Mitka]

Re the Dalai Lama and the mosquito: Funny, something similar happened to me a while back. I usually let mosquitos get a fill of my blood and then bless them as they fly away... I believe they use the blood to feed their children or something like that, so I don't mind giving up some. But one day I was walking through the woods and this huge horsefly landed on my arm and sunk it's huge mouthparts into my flesh. It hurt a lot, but I decided to let the horsefly be, hoping it would leave soon. It didn't. Two minutes there it was still there. Three minutes after that... still there. I was starting to get impatient. I started to blow on it, but it just clung on. Around 7 minutes it finally withdrew it's mouth and I thought "Yes it's finally going away." Instead it walked a few inches up my arm and sunk it's mouthparts into my flesh again.

By this time I had had it with the horsefly, so I nudged it, as gently as I could, off my arm. It withdrew it's mouthparts and flew away.

[Jakuden]

Re the Dalai Lama and the mosquito: Funny, something similar happened to me a while back. I usually let mosquitos get a fill of my blood and then bless them as they fly away... I believe they use the blood to feed their children or something like that, so I don't mind giving up some. But one day I was walking through the woods and this huge horsefly landed on my arm and sunk it's huge mouthparts into my flesh. It hurt a lot, but I decided to let the horsefly be, hoping it would leave soon. It didn't. Two minutes there it was still there. Three minutes after that... still there. I was starting to get impatient. I started to blow on it, but it just clung on. Around 7 minutes it finally withdrew it's mouth and I thought "Yes it's finally going away." Instead it walked a few inches up my arm and sunk it's mouthparts into my flesh again.

By this time I had had it with the horsefly, so I nudged it, as gently as I could, off my arm. It withdrew it's mouthparts and flew away.

I’m going to have “Fly” nightmares all night tonight I saw those mouthparts up close in Parasitology, horseflies basically have a little hatchet on their face that they use to tear out a chunk of skin, then they lap up the blood.

Seriously though, what an extraordinarily kind and tolerant person you must be. ❤️ I may even have a pang of regret when I spray and chase the flies off the horses this summer, now. Thank you for your practice.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Jundo]

Re the Dalai Lama and the mosquito: Funny, something similar happened to me a while back. I usually let mosquitos get a fill of my blood and then bless them as they fly away... I believe they use the blood to feed their children or something like that, so I don't mind giving up some. But one day I was walking through the woods and this huge horsefly landed on my arm and sunk it's huge mouthparts into my flesh. It hurt a lot, but I decided to let the horsefly be, hoping it would leave soon. It didn't. Two minutes there it was still there. Three minutes after that... still there. I was starting to get impatient. I started to blow on it, but it just clung on. Around 7 minutes it finally withdrew it's mouth and I thought "Yes it's finally going away." Instead it walked a few inches up my arm and sunk it's mouthparts into my flesh again.

By this time I had had it with the horsefly, so I nudged it, as gently as I could, off my arm. It withdrew it's mouthparts and flew away.

Even the Dalai Lama (video posted above) has his limit. And Zen Masters even today carry the "Fly Whisk," which is an ancient Indian devise to chase the visitors. Now it is a symbol of the master's authority, but still ... very practical!



When I visited the Arizona desert last year, ticks and rattle snakes were a concern. The buddha once famously fed a hungry tiger with his own body ...

https://tatsushinarita.wordpress.com...-nurture-them/



... but, on most days, he and the old Zen masters advised wandering monks to take safe paths, and avoid the areas where dangerous tigers lurk.

So, most days ... flick that fellow away with one's fly whisk! One must take the middle way, a time to be generous, a time to be very practical and safe.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Mitka]

I’m going to have “Fly” nightmares all night tonight I saw those mouthparts up close in Parasitology, horseflies basically have a little hatchet on their face that they use to tear out a chunk of skin, then they lap up the blood.

I apologize for any nightmares. I looked them up on Wikipedia and saw a picture, no wonder it hurts so bad!

I may even have a pang of regret when I spray and chase the flies off the horses this summer, now. Thank you for your practice.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

Yes, there is the horse's comfort to consider too. I am afraid I value my dog's comfort over the preference of the flea's to continue living when he gets infested and starts to itch himself raw. I give him a flea bath, and maybe send metta to all the fleas I just condemned to death. It is unfortunate that we have to make such decisions, and that our lives rely on the taking of other lives, whether plants or animals, but it is life and our zazen practice teaches us that we must accept it as it is, and find the best way to live with doing the least amount of harm.

Seriously though, what an extraordinarily kind and tolerant person you must be. ❤️

Thank you for your kind words Jakuden.

When I visited the Arizona desert last year, ticks and rattle snakes were a concern. The buddha once famously fed a hungry tiger with his own body ...

https://tatsushinarita.wordpress.com...-nurture-them/

... but, on most days, he and the old Zen masters advised wandering monks to take safe paths, and avoid the areas where dangerous tigers lurk.

So, most days ... flick that fellow away with one's fly whisk! One must take the middle way, a time to be generous, a time to be very practical and safe.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Yes, personal safety is a concern. I remove ticks from me and my dog because I don't either one of us to contract Lyme Disease, even though I understand the ticks die after you remove them. Some masters may have been able to offer themselves to other sentient beings for nourishment (I understand there is a meditation that simulates this in Tibetan Buddhism), and I will do what I can to emulate them, such as giving a mosquito a belly-full of blood, but I'm not ready to give myself up to the local coyotes yet. Maybe something to consider when I am old and dying, if I can escape the nursing home.

Gassho,

Matthew
SAT

[Sekiyuu]

When I originally learned to sit zazen it was from a book, it was many years ago but I didn't have someone to tell me if what I was doing was actually right or not. It was very adamant about not moving at all, so the whole question about what to do about an itch or a mosquito or whatever was kind of distressing because I inevitably felt itches and my legs fell asleep and so on. Of course you deal with it if it's the only thing you can think about... but where do you draw that line?

In college I sat with a professor who is a Tibetan Buddhist and said that if you have an itch, just scratch it and get on with meditating. Same goes with posture; if a limb is falling asleep, just correct it and get on with it. This was a pretty big breakthrough in my practice: beforehand if an itch or an ache came up, suddenly I'd think I'm doing something wrong and spend the next minute or so trying to decide what to do about it, rather than spending a few seconds just doing something about it. Leaving an itch alone tends to just make it worse and more distracting rather than the other way around. Even then, I can manage to sit for 15 minutes with no limbs moving (maybe just a little shifting around) pretty consistently.

Maybe it's just something that works particularly well for me, but trying to sit with the distraction just creates a new challenge in a practice where there's not supposed to be any good or bad; your ability to deal with the distraction is now a metric of how good your zazen is.

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

[Jundo]

When I originally learned to sit zazen it was from a book, it was many years ago but I didn't have someone to tell me if what I was doing was actually right or not. It was very adamant about not moving at all, so the whole question about what to do about an itch or a mosquito or whatever was kind of distressing because I inevitably felt itches and my legs fell asleep and so on. Of course you deal with it if it's the only thing you can think about... but where do you draw that line?

In college I sat with a professor who is a Tibetan Buddhist and said that if you have an itch, just scratch it and get on with meditating. Same goes with posture; if a limb is falling asleep, just correct it and get on with it. This was a pretty big breakthrough in my practice: beforehand if an itch or an ache came up, suddenly I'd think I'm doing something wrong and spend the next minute or so trying to decide what to do about it, rather than spending a few seconds just doing something about it. Leaving an itch alone tends to just make it worse and more distracting rather than the other way around. Even then, I can manage to sit for 15 minutes with no limbs moving (maybe just a little shifting around) pretty consistently.

Maybe it's just something that works particularly well for me, but trying to sit with the distraction just creates a new challenge in a practice where there's not supposed to be any good or bad; your ability to deal with the distraction is now a metric of how good your zazen is.

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

Yes, sometimes one scratches the itch or moves the sleepy leg, sometimes no. No hard rule. If sitting with a group of people in which my movement might bother others, often I try to ignore it and not move. If sitting alone, sometimes I scratch. Sometimes, when sitting alone, I do not scratch just to test the mind and not let it be bothered.

A mosquito is not a distraction unless the mind is distracted. It is a physical pain or uncomfortable feeling. If that feeling is too much, sometimes we do something ... but hard to say what is "too much."

So, sometimes chase the mosquito and sometimes move the leg ... sometimes do not chase the mosquito or move the leg ... there is no rule for when to do which. However, in either case, don't be bothered by your doing or not doing, don't even be bothered when feeling bother, and best not to spend endless minutes debating the issue.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Kyousui]

When I itch, I watch to see what happens, sometimes it fades, sometimes my body scratches it without conscious permission. That is what is.

Sat/lah

[Mitka]

I'm learning that I am a fidgeter. When I sit, especially for long periods, I am constantly shifting, relaxing my back, placing my hands on my ankles, sometimes even shifting off the zafu a bit and stretch my legs out in front of me and look out the window. I suppose many people go through this stage, and I have tried to just "sit" with it, but the temptation to fidget is powerful and my back aches so much... that I inevitably give in. Any tips on how to overcome this?

Gassho,
Matthew
Sat

[Jundo]

I'm learning that I am a fidgeter. When I sit, especially for long periods, I am constantly shifting, relaxing my back, placing my hands on my ankles, sometimes even shifting off the zafu a bit and stretch my legs out in front of me and look out the window. I suppose many people go through this stage, and I have tried to just "sit" with it, but the temptation to fidget is powerful and my back aches so much... that I inevitably give in. Any tips on how to overcome this?

Gassho,
Matthew
Sat

Yes. Unless there is a real medical reason to move, such as unbearable leg pain, or the house in on fire ... DON'T MOVE!

Pretend that you are not sitting alone, but with 20 other people a meter away at a temple in Kyoto and it would bother everyone.

Above, I posted that there is a reason to move sometimes due to pain or insect, but unless there is real need, sit still! JUST DON'T MOVE and sit like a mountain.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Mitka]

DON'T MOVE!

This is exactly what I find particularly hard to do. Is it just a matter of developing the will not to move?

I suppose it might be useful to find a group of people to sit with physically.

Gassho,
Matthew
Sat

[Doshin]

Yes. Unless there is a real medical reason to move, such as unbearable leg pain, or the house in on fire ... DON'T MOVE!

Pretend that you are not sitting alone, but with 20 other people a meter away at a temple in Kyoto and it would bother everyone.

Above, I posted that there is a reason to move sometimes due to pain or insect, but unless there is real need, sit still! JUST DON'T MOVE and sit like a mountain.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

I was taught not to move in Zazen. I have had a stick placed along my spine (forgot what that is called) to make sure I am sitting right. I was told when you have an itch, breath through it. When you have a hurt, breath through it. I always do my best, but if a fly starts crawiling around my nose, sometimes, just sometimes that does not do the job! BTW, I don;t swat the fly I just move him along his way.

PS..one other exception is when the candle is melting and a fire is possible. Jundo, never got it all off the Rakusu, but as you suggested it a rememberence of our sit!

Gassho
Doshin
st

[Jundo]

I was taught not to move in Zazen. I have had a stick placed along my spine (forgot what that is called) to make sure I am sitting right. I was told when you have an itch, breath through it. When you have a hurt, breath through it. I always do my best, but if a fly starts crawiling around my nose, sometimes, just sometimes that does not do the job! BTW, I don;t swat the fly I just move him along his way.

PS..one other exception is when the candle is melting and a fire is possible. Jundo, never got it all off the Rakusu, but as you suggested it a rememberence of our sit!

Gassho
Doshin
st

I am not saying to become a statue, but don't move unless one really has to move.

In the top post, I recall sitting Zazen with about 30 Japanese people in a 150 year old wooden building at Sojiji with a heavy roof and maybe termites, when an earthquake started. I looked around ... and was the only person even doing that.

No, one does not have to be frozen, and okay to adjust a bit, scratch an itch now and then, get a fly out of one's nose. But, all in moderation.

Matthew just needs to visualize (like those Olympic athletes) the other people, and me standing over him with my heavy Kyosaku stick (which, by the way, I never use is our Lineage and Nishijima Roshi did not believe in them, but maybe the site of a "big stick" is enough)



Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Meian]

Zazen is teaching me about lupus -- this is unexpected, but welcome. After the wonderful suggestions I received from many of you, I started attempting some scheduled zazens from the link that Shugen(?) provided me with. So far, I've completed a few, even the 04:30 after sleeping thru it a few times.

What zazen is teaching me is:
When I sit, let go and breathe slowly, it calms my CNS and body. When my CNS and body slow down, I itch less and fidget a bit less. It doesn't stop my symptoms or pain completely, but it is more tolerable, and 5-10 minutes can go to 15-20 minutes with mild fidgeting. It doesn't fix everything, but I don't focus on fixing things. I just breathe and sit.

The scheduled sits are easier for me at this time because I am planning my schedule around them (sort of). Also, I am now telling people, "I have zazen at that time, so I am not available until ___" when they ask me about plans. I imported the zazen schedule into my calendar so I can remember the ones I am available for.

I don't know if my fidgets will stop, but I did learn why I have them. I do believe that zazen is helping to calm my CNS, and I will see what effects it has on my autoimmune system (the heart of lupus). My experimental practice is helping, though. I think my rheumatologist may be interested in this as well. She takes a holistic approach to medicine. But I know that I would never last in a Japanese monastery.

Gassho
Kim
St

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