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Thread: Sit-a-Long with Jundo: Zazen for Beginners (Part X)

  1. #1

    Sit-a-Long with Jundo: Zazen for Beginners (Part X)



    Last time, in our series on Zazen for Beginners (we are all always beginners), I used the analogy of clouds of thoughts and emotions drifting through an open, clear, boundless blue sky.

    I said, in Shikantaza “Just Sitting” Zazen, we do not resist the clouds, do not attempt to silence the thoughts and emotions forcefully. Instead, we just return our attention again and again to the clear sky, and allow the clouds to drift out of mind. Be focused on “everything and nothing at all,” just as the sky covers all the world without thought or discrimination.

    What is more, I said, we do not think of the clouds as “bad” while the clear sky is “good” … We never say “this cloudy day is not good because there is no blue sky today.” When the sky is blue and empty, let it be so. When the sky is cloudy, our mind filled with thoughts and distractions, let it be so. Drop all judgment of Zazen, and of all of life, as “good vs. bad.” Nonetheless, though we reject nothing as “good” or “bad” Zazen, we do not stay in the clouds. Not at all! We allow the clouds to drift from mind and return our attention again and again to the blue.

    In doing so, a surprising thing happens …

    Though we do not reject our thoughts and emotions, do not try to change them, suppress them, judge them or push them away… “bad” thoughts will change, will be experienced quite differently, and sometimes fully drop away. To illustrate this process, I will talk about sitting with three common thoughts and emotions that may fill our heads during Zazen or at any moment of life: anger at someone, greed for something, and fear about the future.

    CLICK HERE for today’s Sit-A-Long video.



    Remember: recording ends soon after the beginning bells; a sitting time of 15 to 35 minutes is recommended.
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-28-2013 at 01:15 AM.

  2. #2

    Re: Sit-a-Long with Jundo: Zazen for Beginners (Part X)

    Hi,

    Thanks so very much. You have explained this so well.

  3. #3

    Re: Sit-a-Long with Jundo: Zazen for Beginners (Part X)

    I really needed to hear this today. My mind keeps grasping at objects I think I need in order to be happy. The acquisition of more 'things' or 'stuff' is not going to bring contentment...yet it's something I need to reflect on again and again or else that grasping, needy mind resurfaces. This teaching is a big help. Thanks!

  4. #4

    Dealing with negative thoughts during zazen

    Jundo:
    Something bothers me slightly about this talk and the prior one. The thing that bothers me is that, although you advise no resistance to the clouds that come up into consciousness while meditating, you talk about turning from the clouds (negative thoughts and emotions) to the blue sky. Also, in an earlier talk, the video shows you metaphorically blowing intruding thoughts away. Perhaps these metaphors give the impression of more resistance and active doing than is intended?

    I admit I am a big nit-picker. And this is a very subtle and difficult point to convey exactly. In reading the books of the great twentieth-century sage Krishnamurti, for example, I feel it is easy to get the impression that his approach to dealing with negative emotions is a more active process than he is really suggesting ( believe he is suggesting an attitude very much like that of Shikantaza).

    Perhaps you mean just not giving these negative thoughts and emotions energy; or, if they are very strong, just sitting with them as an undivided activity (I see Pierre Turlur mentions this phrase as one of Dogen's in one of the Youtube videos) until their energy subsides?

    Pleas comment on this subtle point.

    Thanks,
    Dave

  5. #5
    Hi Dave,

    It is a very good question.

    Shikantaza is not really active or passive. I would say that, yes, at those moments in the middle of a sitting in which we find ourselves tangled in thoughts, thinking about the guy who cut us off in traffic yesterday or the electric bill due to be paid tomorrow, we do gently let them go ... open the hand of thought ... lightly blow them away ... and return to sitting in the quiet, vibrant clarity between thoughts.

    At the same time, we do not actively wrestle our thoughts and emotions, fight, try to stamp them down by force. We drop all resistance to the thoughts, all tension, even as we turn away from thinking them.

    Our sitting should not be numb, energyless, bump on a log, completely passive, dead headed ... but should have a certain spark of life, vibrancy, energy to it. We settle into a quiet, still center that is nonetheless vibrant yet not too vibrant, not numb yet not over stimulated, manifesting a spark of life but not burning the house down.

    It is a middle way. I sometimes compare this to Ai-ki-do, the martial art which emphasizes ... not wrestling with the opponent ... but using the opponents energy to simply drop our own resistance, step out of the way, and allow the opponent to go past by his own force and weight. Another description is Wu-wei-wu ... non-action action.

    I hope that helps.

    Gassho, Jundo
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  6. #6

    "Opening the hand of thought" - a reply to Jundo's answer

    Jundo,

    Thanks for your answer. "Opening the hand of thought" is a deft phrase to describe this process of letting go of our thoughts. It brings to mind the fact that thought is literally a grasping or apprehending accompanied by bodily tension. "Opening the hand of thought" and letting go of it is then a process of relaxing, not pushing.

    Dave

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Schauweker View Post
    Jundo,

    Thanks for your answer. "Opening the hand of thought" is a deft phrase to describe this process of letting go of our thoughts. It brings to mind the fact that thought is literally a grasping or apprehending accompanied by bodily tension. "Opening the hand of thought" and letting go of it is then a process of relaxing, not pushing.

    Dave
    Opening the hand of thought is a saying by Uchiyama Roshi, and my top book recommendation for folks new to Shikantaza ...

    http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=fOU_1vlGN9UC

    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  8. #8
    Jundo, my meditation has been sporadic over the past week, and when I do finally get a chance to sit my mind races, but everytime I sit, I hear your voice in my head "there is no bad zazen"

    And, so I sit, with my racing mind, even if it's only for a few minutes. And something happens, because I get up, I feel more peaceful, and when it is time to sleep I drift off into such a deep, peaceful sleep. So thank you, even my "bad" zazen much be doing something "good"

    gassho

  9. #9
    Gassho Emmy

    Shawn

  10. #10
    How does one allow thought or emotions drift away when not sitting in Zazen. For example, when the emotion of anger or retaliation arises during a heated argument? Could one follow the same practice to bring back the blue sky (and not cause harm to oneself and others)?

  11. #11
    Hi Eugene,

    Yes, learning to take this Practice "off the cushion" is vital. You will find a couple of talks about that later in this series of "Beginners" talks, but really such is at the heart of all our Practice everyday around here.

    I sometimes compare sitting on the "Zafu" to a flight simulator like pilots use, and getting up from the Zafu is taking to the air. One becomes better, in many life situations, at letting go and seeing right through our passing thoughts and emotions.

    Here are some recent discussions on anger. Yes, there is many things one can do in the heat of anger to allow such to pass. It is okay to just bite one's tongue if one needs, or follow the breath for a time. Feeling anger is one thing, acting on the anger ... with words and, even more, with fists ... is another. Anger can really "take us over" from the most primitive parts of the brain, and at those times it might be necessary to bite the lip, grit the teeth and "white knuckle" the urge or emotion until it passes. Other times, one can gently let it go simply, without grabbing the hook.

    However, this Practice allows us ... more and more ... to be trained in simply "letting stuff go" without biting the hook.

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...ying-With-Fire

    We also touch upon this during our ongoing Precept reflections for Jukai. We will come to "To Refrain from Being Angry" in a few weeks. Please look for that.

    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
    How does one allow thought or emotions drift away when not sitting in Zazen. For example, when the emotion of anger or retaliation arises during a heated argument? Could one follow the same practice to bring back the blue sky (and not cause harm to oneself and others)?
    Hello Eugene,

    Thank you for the questions ... all I can give is an example that happened to me. After 28 years I went back to school and was quite nervous and intimidated about it. The short and sweet of it all is, I found that this wonderful practice allowed me to "just be" and be "ok" with just being in the moment of that nervousness and intimidation. To not push or run away from it; to embrace it and than watch it fade away.

    Today when I am in class, I notice the feelings are no longer there - if they do arise, I know they will fade ... they come, they go and that is ok. Just some of my simple ramblings.

    Gassho
    Shingen
    RINDO SHINGEN
    倫道 真現

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  13. #13
    Thanks so much Shingen.

    Just knowing these feelings will fade away is already a big encouragement.

    eugene

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
    Thanks so much Shingen.

    Just knowing these feelings will fade away is already a big encouragement.

    eugene
    You are very welcome Eugene.

    Gassho
    Shingen
    RINDO SHINGEN
    倫道 真現

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  15. #15

  16. #16
    Excellent explanation - I can relate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post

    It is a middle way. I sometimes compare this to Ai-ki-do, the martial art which emphasizes ... not wrestling with the opponent ... but using the opponents energy to simply drop our own resistance, step out of the way, and allow the opponent to go past by his own force and weight. Another description is Wu-wei-wu ... non-action action.

    I hope that helps.

    Gassho, Jundo

  17. #17
    My question is more about the physical part of my sitting. I am a senior, with artificial knees and weak back and neck muscles, so I have been meditating in a chair with support for my back and head. Feet are flat on the floor. In my younger years, while practicing Vipissana meditation, I did sit on the floor and go through the physical and mental adjustments needed. That is not possible now. Have you any suggestions, or am I OK?

    Thank you.

  18. #18
    Hi Frayda,

    My simple rule of thumb is that, if a position feels comfortable and balanced, so that one can basically forget about the body, then it is a good posture. If that is the most comfortable and balanced way you can sit, then sit that way.

    Taigu's videos in this series should be very helpful to you. I will also ask him to comment.

    Gassho, Jundo
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  19. #19
    Hi Frayda,

    You are perfectly ok as Jundo says. Go with what is comfortable. Support is fine. Form a beautiful mudra as an endless gift from the universe to all and yourself.
    Just be with whatever arises. And please don t judge.

    Gassho

    Taigu

  20. #20
    Hi Jundo

    Thanks very much for this talk. It spoke to me very strongly. I am having to contend with fear quite a lot of the time at the moment - and sometimes it has been overwhelming. Yet I have found sitting with fear, allowing myself to feel it fully, while still very painful, is also in some way releasing. It no longer overwhelms me and gradually, very gradually it dissipates. Even when it still remains very strong at the end of a sitting, somehow the dynamic has changed and I find that I can get on with my day without the dark shadow that it sometimes casts.

    I still have a long way to go with all this but these few experiences have given me heart. Your talk confirmed my sense that it is possible to live differently and to deal with our demons in a very different way - not wrestling with them but maybe just giving them some space to be heard (without getting into conversation with them). I hope this makes sense and please correct me if I have misunderstood.

    Gassho,

    Biffo

  21. #21
    Hi Biffo,

    Yes, this sounds right. There are many variations on this these days, and Buddhist Practice can be very helpful with fear (I know, because I am a naturally born scaredy cat). Just recognize the fear, allow, recall that the "mind theatre" within our heads always colors our world with various emotions that will pass with time ... let it be, release. When afraid, just be afraid ... and somehow the fear becomes smaller and may even fade away.

    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  22. #22
    Flight simulator zafu and taking to the air. I love it Jundo!
    I try to do this (whatever this is) throughout the day. Walking, driving, doing dishes, etc. I have the hardest time by far in the shower, entering with full intention to just shower but I immediately get carried away in thought and don't realize until the end. Nothing else is this bad haha but there I go labeling bad, I'll start by stop doing that, eh?

    Is there a name for this off-the-zafu time when we're 'taking to the air' as you say? Perhaps it's just Zen as in taking the za out of zazen? Or is there a Japanese term for that bare awareness in daily activity?

    Thanks!
    SatToday
    -r

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodney View Post
    Flight simulator zafu and taking to the air. I love it Jundo!
    I try to do this (whatever this is) throughout the day. Walking, driving, doing dishes, etc. I have the hardest time by far in the shower, entering with full intention to just shower but I immediately get carried away in thought and don't realize until the end. Nothing else is this bad haha but there I go labeling bad, I'll start by stop doing that, eh?

    Is there a name for this off-the-zafu time when we're 'taking to the air' as you say? Perhaps it's just Zen as in taking the za out of zazen? Or is there a Japanese term for that bare awareness in daily activity?

    Thanks!
    SatToday
    -r
    Hi Rodney,

    Ya know, I would not say that I shoot for "bare awareness" in most of my daily activities. There is a time and place for it. Sometimes in the shower I just shower, sometimes I think about stuff while showering, sometimes I sing old Frank Sinatra tunes. All good. Each is just what it is. When showering while thinking about taxes and "My Way" ... just do that! ShowerTaxesFrank is what is in that moment!

    Here is what I usually write when the topic comes up ...

    --------------------

    It seems to me that many people in Zen Practice have come to confuse "being present/mindful in the moment" (for example, "when drinking tea, just drink tea" ... a sometimes appropriate and lovely way to experience life) ... with "being at one with the moment" (allowing and merging with conditions of life "just as they are"). The two are not quite the same, and are often confused, and the latter is much more at the heart of this Shikantaza Path ...

    Yes, I believe that there are times to be "mindful" ... and there are times not. Sometimes when I eat, I just eat ... when I sip tea, I just sip tea ... when bowing, just bowing ... fully absorbed in that action. A wonderful, insightful practice. When doing one thing, just do one thing with all one's body-and-mind.

    At other times, I just grab a sandwich and a coke while reading the newspaper and thinking about the job I have to do. That's life too. Nothing wrong with it.

    (I do not know where the idea started among some folks that the 'goal' of this practice is to live the first way every moment of every day. That would be pretty awful (if not harmful) to live like that all or even most of the time. What's wrong with also sometimes reading the paper, thinking about work, while grabbing a quick sandwich? There is a place for all of that.)

    Further, people get even more confused about "mindful" in Buddhism because the word is used in a couple of distinct ways.

    Another, rather different meaning of "mindful" often found in Buddhism is to develop awareness of the "mind theatre" running constantly in our heads (developing the ability to identify the thoughts and emotions that play through our heads, and how they create our experience of "reality" ... e.g., "now I am temporarily sad" "now I am reacting with anger") That is a wonderful, insightful practice too ... very very important ... but I caution against thinking that you must or can do that 24/7.

    In my view, the heart of this Practice is merely "being at one" with this self-life-world just as it is ... dropping the resistance, barriers, separation between our "self" and all the circumstances in which that "self" imagines it finds itself in ... until even the walls between "self" and "life-world" (or self and itself) soften or even fully drop away ...

    So, for example, when drinking tea, just do that and fully allow that. When grabbing a sandwich while reading the paper and thinking about your annoying co-worker in the office, just do that and fully allow that (and fully allow the craziness in the newspaper and your annoying co-worker too).** When your kid plops in your lap during tea drinking and the cup spills all over the table, just do and allow that. When your kid again plops in your lap during Zazen. ( http://www.shambhalasun.com/sunspace/?p=16432 ) When temporarily falling into sadness or anger, just do and allow that (although remember that "mind theatre" and see if you truly need to be that way, and seek to be not that way if you can). When overwrought with life for a moment, just do that and fully allow that (remembering in the back of your mind that the clear, boundless blue sky is behind the clouds of thought and emotion even when momentarily covered over). When suffering with old age and sickness of ourself or someone we love, even death, just do that and fully allow that.

    In my view, all of the above together is truly balanced, "mindful" living. That is "being the moment".

    Gassho, Jundo
    SatToday

    ** PS - "fully allowing" does not mean necessarily "fully allowing". We have something called "acceptance-without-acceptance" around here ... So, for example, we can "fully allow and be one with" the wars and pollution described in the newspaper or the bothersome person at work or the sickness we are suffering ... yet take steps to deal with each too. Not mutually exclusive perspectives.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  24. #24
    Dear Jundo,

    Do you think that practice of "being present/mindful in the moment" can be a step towards the state of "being one with the moment"? If so, is it a necessary step, or not necessarily related..?


    Gassho,

    Anshu/Bryson

    sat today
    Last edited by Anshu Bryson; 01-16-2015 at 03:09 AM.

  25. #25
    Reading this couple of times to let it sink in. I'm having trouble with the part of having a sandwich while thinking of the annoying co worker as it seems to be in contrast to the "being at one" paragraph. Certainly just my misperception ... so pondering it. But otherwise that "being at one" paragraph is really meaty, I appreciate that. SatToday -r

    [Edited] I hadn't read the P.S. Part carefully enough; I think I'm getting it.
    Gratitude!
    -r
    Last edited by Rodney; 01-16-2015 at 03:33 AM. Reason: Further reflection

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Anshu Bryson View Post
    Dear Jundo,

    Do you think that practice of "being present/mindful in the moment" can be a step towards the state of "being one with the moment"? If so, is it a necessary step, or not necessarily related..?


    Gassho,

    Anshu/Bryson

    sat today
    Hi Bryson,

    I believe that it is an ancient and important tool on the Buddhist toolbelt. There are times to be fully present/mindful in the moment, times to lose (and find) oneself in the single activity of that moment. I would call such times ... Zazen sitting, Kinhin, Chanting the Heart Sutra, Bowing, eating Oryoki ... or just drinking tea, working in the garden, changing a baby diaper, doing one thing as the one and only thing ... as vital to this Practice.

    It is just that, in my view, we were not meant to live so during most moments (nor could we). I am not giving up my Sinatra and Shower for anything.

    There is a time just to eat breakfast, throwing oneself into Oryoki as the one and only doing ...

    ... there is a time to eat breakfast while watching the TV and thinking about dropping off the dry cleaning. All is life. Such is also One Doing.

    Do not confuse "doing one thing at one time in the moment" and "being present in a particular moment" with being "at one with all life moments, simple even if complicated".

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-16-2015 at 05:25 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodney View Post
    Reading this couple of times to let it sink in. I'm having trouble with the part of having a sandwich while thinking of the annoying co worker as it seems to be in contrast to the "being at one" paragraph. Certainly just my misperception ... so pondering it. But otherwise that "being at one" paragraph is really meaty, I appreciate that. SatToday -r
    Yes, this is so. If one is truly "at one" when "grabbing a sandwich while reading the paper and thinking about your annoying co-worker in the office" one will tend to find that the "annoying" part of the experience begins to fade, even fully drop away.

    Then, the co-worker is "just as he is" too.

    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  28. #28
    I have to admit to being a charter member of the Sinatra in the Shower club myself...

    Gassho,

    Bryson

    sat today

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Yes, this is so. If one is truly "at one" when "grabbing a sandwich while reading the paper and thinking about your annoying co-worker in the office" one will tend to find that the "annoying" part of the experience begins to fade, even fully drop away.

    Then, the co-worker is "just as he is" too.

    Gassho, J
    That "at one" leading to the eventual dropping of the "annoying" part of the experience fading is encouraging, Jundo.
    Thank you! -r
    SatToday

  30. #30
    I guess what I'm struggling with is that I thought that daydreaming and a wondering mind were part of the dukkah suffering/discontentment in the four noble truths. So it made sense that Zen is a means to let go of those trappings. Taxes in the shower or pondering annoying co worker while eating a sandwich seems like mind wandering or daydreaming.

    Might my my confusion lie in that those two scenarios are intentional thinking versus getting carried away unwittingly? Otherwise when you say we aren't meant to be in that state most of the time then for me that's when I go in auto pilot driving or shower or sandwich and my mind goes any which way. And again I thought that was a thing to let go of.

    Sorry for for my fog, I thought I had a grasp but see I do not.
    Thanks

    SatToday -r

  31. #31
    Hey Rodney,

    When we're unaware, we can be aware that we're unaware, can pay attention to inattentiveness Besides, our mental landscapes and the space around us aren't really separate from each other. If we're eating a sandwich and pondering our annoying co-worker, those two things are not two. They're both united with the same moment.

    Sometimes when we're eating a sandwich, we might just be eating the sandwich without eating all the mental chatter too. Other times, they're both part of the same meal. In my own experiences, constantly forcing my mind to quiet down and focus on the task at hand, makes it almost impossible for my mind to quiet down and focus on the task at hand.

    That said, if we are wandering, we can be aware that we're a-wandering. Sometimes just being aware of it, without pushing it away, lets it fade away on its own. Just my take on it.

    Gassho, John
    Sat Today

  32. #32
    Thanks Jundo,
    A wonderful lesson.

    Gassho
    Theophan
    Sat Today

  33. #33
    Awareness of the wandering, aha! Thank you John!
    -r
    SatToday

  34. #34
    I'm struggling with fear of the future *a lot* sometimes.
    Thank you for this.

    Gassho, Elle
    sat today

  35. #35
    Just watched this video again and I think the image of the clouds in the blue sky have struck a light bulb in my mind. Awarness of the wandering as Rodney said.

    Gassho,

    Simon,

    Sat today

  36. #36

    Breathing in zazen

    One question:

    When we doing zazen

    We are counting our breath?

    Gasshó
    Sat today

  37. #37
    Treeleaf Unsui Shokai's Avatar
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    Counting your breath is one method of settling your emotions and thinking. But, it is best to try to just be; experience the intimacy of being with yourself by yourself without analyzing or judging. As you experience this a calm spaciousness will eventually be your partner. Just sit.

    gassho
    仁道 生開 - Jindo Shokai "Open to life in a benevolent way"
    Just another itinerant monk going nowhere; try somewhere else to listen to someone who really knows.

  38. #38
    Posted elsewhere as well ...

    Hi Mokuho,

    In the way of Shikantaza I encourage here, we are just sitting ... free of judgement, free of grabbing thoughts, free of worry or contemplating what comes in the future or what happened in the past. We are just sitting, with open spacious awareness ... with a mind much as a mirror which does not judge or reject all reflected within it. One sits radically in the wholeness and completeness of that moment, and simply sitting is the one action necessary to do in that moment of life. Thoughts may come and go, but we do not latch on nor stir them up.

    However, sometimes counting or following the breath is necessary or good to follow for those student (especially beginners) really cannot get their thoughts to settle a bit, and for all of us if the mind is storming.

    I write about that later in the series ...

    Sit-a-Long with Jundo: Zazen for Beginners (Part XI)
    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...-%28Part-XI%29

    Also, this may be helpful ...

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post129523

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

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