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Thread: The Illusion of Self

  1. #1

    The Illusion of Self

    I was reading a blog on consciousness today, and found what I considered to be a VERY interesting post about the illusion of self. It's very long (the quote below is a small part of the article), but provides some good hints on how to see this illusion:

    http://www.consciousentities.com/?p=180 (scroll down to comment 12).

    After the commenter gives a very lucid (IMO) description of what the "search for a self" can be like, he or she then posts many great quotes about the illusion of self. One that I liked in particular:

    Look, it’s all so incredibly simple. There is no one here. This is not a figure of speech. I mean there is truly no one here, no person, no individual speaking to you. You look at me and think there is a person here talking to you, trying to tell you something. I assure you, there is not. Look at me. If there were not Consciousness streaming through this body, what would be here? What would this body be if Consciousness were not here? A corpse, of course! Dead matter. There is nothing else here. There is only the appearance of a body, and Consciousness which animates it. You, along with the rest of the world, have assumed that there is a discreet individual person here: that the Consciousness which is the animating force here is an individual consciousness, unique to this body and separate from the consciousness in other bodies.
    This is based on appearances: there appear to be separate bodies, so the assumption is that there are separate consciousness-es. The belief in this assumption blinds you to seeing What Is, and is also the cause of your experience of this life as disquieting, confusing, unhappy, and generally full of fear and suffering. But it is not the case. There is in no way an individual sitting here talking to you. This body is nothing, an appearance in the dream. All there is is Consciousness, and it is Consciousness which is streaming through this appearance.

    There is nothing here that exists in and of itself. What we call the human being is not an independent being, not an originating mechanism, not a transmitter. It is a relay station, a pass-through mechanism for Consciousness, the One Consciousness, All That Is. That is what I am, talking to you. And it is the same One Consciousness listening to this, looking back at me out of those eyes you call your own. What I am when I say ‘I Am’ is exactly the same as what you are when you say ‘I Am.’

    Once seen, the irony of the situation is staggering. Look: what you think of as your’self,’ what you perceive as an individual person, this idea of being a separate entity, a body-mind-personality-soul-intellect: this is a subsequent by-product, an artifact, an almost accidental side effect of this streaming, this flowing of Consciousness. It is the streaming of Consciousness in this organism which the organism inaccurately perceives as a ‘mind’ which it thinks is its own: it is the very Consciousness streaming in this organism which allows this perception at all, which makes it possible for this organism to think it is other than that same Consciousness. A simple, innocent misperception. And a silly one, because the very One who appears to be thinking this, who appears not to see, not to understand that it is not as a separate individual and is only as All That Is, is Itself the very I-ness that is the only Is-ness of all seeing, of all understanding.

    Look into what is behind this perception. Investigate what you think of as your’self.’ This is the purpose, the meaning of all spirituality, of all seeking, of your very being: to understand this amazing intricate play of Consciousness by seeing what is this illusion, this mistaken perception, and what is its source which makes it possible. What you are, you always already are. It is by seeing what you are not that there is a stepping away from it, stepping out of the misconceived role of a separate fearful individual.

    When you step out of what you are not, what remains is not something you have to become, but what you always already are. That is why there is nothing you have to do, or become, or learn, or practice, or work at, or purify. It is completely effortless to be in your natural state. What is full of difficult, constant effort is maintaining this false and unnatural idea of being somebody, of being an individual, a separate something. You are a non-entity! Let it go! When it is let go of, you rest in the effortlessness of All That Is, of what could be called your natural state.
    Effortlessness is not something that can be attained by effort. No-mind is not a state that can be achieved by the mind. Peace cannot be achieved by striving. Trying to be aware of ‘just being in the present moment’ is a contradiction in terms; being ‘self-consciously’ aware of it takes you out of it. Trying to be aware of “I Am’ is a similar contradiction, and for the same reason. You can’t try to be happy any more than you can try to go to sleep or try to act naturally. You only act naturally when you’re not trying, not thinking, but simply going about life. People would come from all over India and the whole world to see Ramana Maharshi and ask him for advice on the spiritual path. His advice? “Just be yourself.”

    This is what Nisargadatta Maharaj said of your natural state, of what you are naturally, spontaneously, without effort:
    “This state is before the appearance of beingness.
    It is prior to or beyond beingness
    and non-beingness.
    Am, in that state which existed before the arrival
    of beingness and non-beingness.
    With the arrival of the waking state, all the world
    becomes manifest;
    because of my beingness, my world is manifest.
    That also is observed by that state which is prior
    to beingness,
    and you are That!”

    David Carse, “Perfect Brilliant Stillness”
    I liked this article enough that I printed it out and posted it by my desk. Just in case you might be interested.

    Craig

  2. #2

    Re: The Illusion of Self

    The One Consciousness, the Not One Consciousness, the Trillion-Gazillion Consciousness ...

    Is a beach a beach or each grain of sand? Where does the sky and ocean begin, and the beach stop? Is each grain of sand a grain of sand or a trillion-gazillion atoms? Is each atom ... Is the sky ... Is the ocean ... ?

    Should the sand think of itself "I am not the sand, I am the beach, I am the sky"? Is that wrong or right? Should it not think of itself?

    And how about you, sitting on that beach looking at the sky and sea?

    Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era, received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

    Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor’s cup full, and then kept on pouring as the professor pontificated on this and that. The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. “It is overfull. Can’t you see the cup is full? No more will go in!”

    Like this cup, Nan-in said, you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup? Come back to me when the cup is empty. Come back to me with an empty mind.

  3. #3

    Re: The Illusion of Self

    Hi Craig!
    Thank you for this post!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup? Come back to me when the cup is empty. Come back to me with an empty mind.
    I was going to say silly things about ego and self again but Ok! I'll just sit... :wink:

    gassho,
    Luis/Jinyu

  4. #4

    Re: The Illusion of Self

    Gassho for the post, Craig.

    I must say though, for me, none of this does much for me. Very analyzing, dissecting, and prodding. That may be a fault of me of the writing style :mrgreen:

    As for the Self, it is always a big topic of discussion at the Sangha on campus and when I would lead discussions I had to stop them after awhile. Eventually it was talking in circles about things that really didn't make any sense or bear any relevance toward life. Then again, just a bunch of college students talking 8)

    Anyways, I don't always understand the philosophy, and I can't always lay it out in words. But I can tell you that I sit when it's storming to hear the rain and the thunder, to move past "Taylor" and "Rain/Thunder", I also stare at trees and the sky because, well, it's what I do!

    Gasshooooo
    Taylor

  5. #5

    Re: The Illusion of Self

    If we take the non-self teachings as upaya/skillful means, designed to get us to start practicing and begin seeing through self, then the teachings do their job. The result of the teachings is experience, breaking through the atman teachings of the time the Buddha was speaking. Self/non-self doesn't come up when thats happened. Its the same issue that some non Zennies have with statements like "attaining the True Self". All the while we conceptualise any of them we haven't gone beyond.....

    Rich

  6. #6

    Re: The Illusion of Self

    My zafu has no rear view mirror.

  7. #7

    Re: The Illusion of Self

    This practice is not an intellectual endeavor and the illusion of this 'I' is stubborn, habitual and conditioned.
    /Rich

  8. #8

    Re: The Illusion of Self

    Ignorance (ie not knowing) is first cause to suffering.
    Believing in "I" is the creation of "other" and ego's basis for treating these differently; allowing "others" to suffer or causing harm to an "other".
    What war ever began without first creating the "other"; building on fear and placing the blame for the need of violence against "them"?
    What love ever survived without realizing "we" are "one"?
    What children will not cry, or starve, or die if we here don't come to know that our ignorance of the illusion of "self" and its emptiness separates us from love and compassion?
    If we (all of us together as one) do not come to know these. What world will survive? What will change?
    Gassho.

  9. #9

    Re: The Illusion of Self

    Hi,

    I'd like to drop in a little "food for non-thought" which may be useful for subjects like this.

    There are a few rather different perspectives on these subjects, and various interpretations of the whole objective of spiritual practices which flavor different schools of Buddhism (including different flavors of Zen teachings) and "eastern philosophies" in general. Understanding these different perspectives, and where different teachers and teachings are coming from, can help us sort through why folks seem to be saying similar, yet not quite the same, things.

    Here it is, in a much too simple nutshell. Let me take two topics in order:

    --------------------------------------------

    TOPIC ONE: "THE ONE"

    1) Some say that the point of this practice is to realize or attain to some "Oneness" "The One" "Great Universal Spirit" "The Force" "Cosmic Buddha" "God" "The Godhead" "Universal Consciousness" "True Mind" or the like who/which is "TRUTH" ... in contrast to which this world of samsara in which we think we are living is a lie, a bundle of delusions. The way to do that, it is said, is to drop this "illusion of a separate, autonomous self" and merge back into "The One Great Godhead True Mind Universal Consciousness" etc.

    The essay Craig posted seems to be coming from that angle, for example where the writer states " It is realized that Oneness, God, or whatever you like to call this inexpressible truth, is living life through your body and mind. Only thought creates the story that you are the doer of action."

    2) Other Teachers and Teachings (including, arguably, the early teachings of Gautama Buddha in rejecting the Brahman emphasis on merging Atman) emphasize more that we should not be seeking to "merge into The One" ... but, rather, we should seek to drop the working of the separate self so to thus "be at one" with this world-life-self (not just three separate things ... more about that later) whatever the world-life-self is (or is not), whatever 'it' contains and contains 'it' (or does not), wherever it came from and is going (or not) ... without any demands whatsoever, without any demands that there be a ""Force Cosmic Buddha God Universal Consciousness" or not be. The Buddha taught that we should not be concerned with who or what (if anything) made this world, where it is going ... and simply "let it be and go". As I sometimes put it ...

    If there is a "God" "Oneness" "Great Buddha in the Sky" "Universal Mind" etc. ... chop wood and fetch water, seek to live in a way avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way)

    If there is no "God" no "Oneness" no "Great Buddha in the Sky" no "Universal Mind" etc. ... chop wood and fetch water, seek to live in a way avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way)


    Imagine a room with a table in it in which we are sitting Zazen (imagine too that the "table" is a symbol of "God" "Cosmic Buddha" " etc ... and now imagine sitting Zazen in a room that is without any table. We can be "totally at one" with the room, embrace the room as it is ... whether it has a table or not. Both are totally our home when Zazen is sat there.

    Now, if you don't read the above carefully, you may think that Old Jundo is actually saying that there is "no God" "no Universal Consciousness" etc.. I am saying no such thing! Nor am I saying that there ARE! What I am saying is that "dropping the whole question" is as close as one will come to finding what cannot be found, going where we need not get to, attaining what cannot be attained, merging with that which requires no merger (for we have never been apart)! In fact, what I and like folks teach is that:

    3) IF THERE IS SOME REALM THAT MIGHT BE TERMED "Buddha" "The One" "God" "Universal Whatever" (and I have a feeling and deep conviction that there is, in fact, something wonderful all those words stand for as the foundation of this life-world-self) ... then we should merge into this wholeness of reality symbolized by words like "Buddha" "The One" "God" "Universal Whatever" by not even demanding (and not even bothering to demand or not demand) that there be someone or something "out there" that is a stuck with the name and label "Buddha" "The One" "God" "Universal Whatever".

    We should not demand (or even bother to not not demand) that "he/it/whatever" be "out there somewhere" to merge into. We should have no preference that this "Buddha" "The One" "God" "Universal Whatever" fit our little anthropocentric demands on the size of "His nose" and the color of "His eyes" ... or that he have (or not have for that matter) 'eyes and nose' ... or even exist or not!

    Further, to know "One", it is best not to demand that there even be "One thing" that is somehow "truer" than the "lie" of 42 billion trillion things ... because then we set up divisions and do not understand what "One" truly means (to wit, that "One" is so "One" that all is beyond "either 'One' or 'one' ... and fully can handle 'two' 'twenty' or '42 billion trillion'. Now, 'THAT'S REALLY 'ONE'! :shock: ).

    If there is a "God" or "Buddha" who creates this "Creation" which is this life-world-self ... the best way to get with the game, and merge into this Creation, is just to live this life in this world as our little seemingly semi-autonomous self ... but to live in a way which honors the gift.

    IT IS VITAL TO PIERCE THE FOLLOWING POINT: To wit, to truly be "at One" with "God's creation" don't place any demands at all on "God" or "His creation", including even that there be or not be a "God" who made a "creation". Don't demand that "he/she/it/whatever" fit your conception of what a "God/Buddha/Great Mind/etc." should look like ... don't demand that it go by a name or label your little human mind can handle ... for these are just little images your imaginative mind likes to stick on things. Don't even demand that "The One" be "one thing" (because "one thing" is just another human label created in contrast to "two things, three things, etc. ... and to truly be "one beyond one" it is best to drop "zero, one, two, three etc etc" all together and just be wholely whole with reality beyond all demands it be "one thing"). IN OTHER WORDS, THE MINUTE YOU DEMAND THAT "GOD" be "GOD" and that "ONE" be "ONE" (and not more or less than one) ... YOU HAVE ALREADY DRIVEN A WALL BETWEEN YOU AND REAL "ONENESS." How dare we little humans seek to tell the universe that it needs to have a "God" to fit our conception, or a "Great Mind" to fit our little minds etc. or be "one thing".

    AND HERE's THE TWIST: WHEN WE DROP ALL THE CATEGORIES, LABELS, DEMANDS TO BE "ONE THING" ETC ... THE WALLS COME TUMBLING DOWN, AND "WE" PROBABLY GET AS CLOSE AS WE CAN GET TO ... you guessed it ... THE ONE BEYOND ALL CATEGORIES AND DIVISIONS!

    THE ONLY WAY TO TRULY "MERGE" REALLY IS TO DROP ALL HUMAN THOUGHT THAT THERE IS ANYTHING IN NEED OF MERGING, ANY PLACE OR THING TO MERGE INTO. The way to truly "unify" is to drop all thought that there were ever two pieces to be unified. The way to be "whole" is to drop all thought that there were ever "1, 2, 16 or 42 trillion billion" pieces to be made whole from the first! (Side note: Yet in our wisely weird "see from all perspectives true at once" way in Shikantaza ... we can see that, nonetheless, there were "1, 2, 16 or 42 trillion billion" pieces too! We see both perspective(s) as one beyond one too. Nothing in need of unifying, even as we practice not to divide this world and mind in harmful ways.)

    And, too ... if you do choose to be a Christian who believes in Jehovah, a Buddhist who believes in "Great Amida Buddha", an atheist who does not, or an agnostic who is skeptical one way or the other ... NO EFFECT ON ZAZEN! It is then precisely as sitting Zazen in a room with a table, or without a table (or not to worry about the table at all). If there is a table there ... sit with it. If not ... sit with that. That is the best way to honor it all.

    If there is a "God" "Buddha" or the like who created this creation, this world and this life ... the greatest act we can do to honor that is to get on with living this life well, caring for this world free of greed, anger and delusion.

    YES ... IT MAY START TO MAKE YOU BONKERS IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT TOO MUCH! :roll:

    ___________________________________

    TOPIC TWO: DROPPING "SEPARATE SELF"

    Now, this "self / not self" thing is not so hard if we simply think of it this way: We seem to be alive in a world where there is you and me, blades of grass, ants, mountains, stars, the wind. AND THERE ARE ALL THOSE THINGS, AND THEY ARE ALL DIFFERENT (the wind is not an ant). HOWEVER, from other perspective(S) it is the human mind which cuts up the "whole pie" into slices ... and there is also the "you-me-grass-ants-mountains-stars-wind" which is just the whole "self-life-world" pie when the mind stops cutting it into slices and separate ingredients and simply lets the pie be the delicious pie.

    Our small self-created image of a "separate self" feels sometimes out of harmony, and in friction, with all the "not itself" others that it cuts the pie into ... "you" feel friction quite often with parts of the pie you feel is "not you". So SIMPLY REVERSE THE PROCESS ... RECOVER AND TASTE ONE'S TRUE PIE ... and there are no separate "things" to feel conflict about. Such is Shikantaza.

    WHAT'S MORE (and this is another things that some folks are very confused about in this "Eastern Philosophies/Buddhism/Zen game) ... one can BOTH know the wholeness of the pie ... and live as a separate piece AT ONCE (thus, feeling "conflicts but no conflicts" at once, like two sides of a no sided coin). One cannot live as "the Pie" because we need an image of multiple things in the world to function (if you thought there was no "you" separate from "the bed" and no "place to go" ... you would not even bother to get out of bed each morning to get to work!).

    On the other hand ... our practice let's us know that there is no "you" no separate "bed" (to get up out of on the 'wrong side' some days ... cause not right or wrong 'sides') and no place to go. Thus, no conflicts, nothing to attain.

    AND WHAT IS THE PATH TO 'NON-ATTAIN' this BOTH AT ONCE ... SHIKANTAZA!

    Gassho, Jundo ("I" hope that made some things clear to "you")

    PS - If you would like to read some more on how "enlightenment" has been (and still is) viewed in different flavors during the history of Buddhism ... I especially recommend this book excerpt to all, and especially folks newer to Buddhism.

    SPECIAL READING - "EIGHT TYPES OF ENLIGHTENMENT"

    viewtopic.php?p=24753#p24753

  10. #10

    Re: The Illusion of Self

    "So SIMPLY REVERSE THE PROCESS ... RECOVER AND TASTE ONE'S TRUE PIE ... " - Jundo
    Is "ONE'S TRUE PIE" another way of phrasing, or somehow similar to, the idea of "True Self" (ie from Uchiyama Roshi's commentary on Tenzo Kyokun)?
    Gassho,

  11. #11

    Re: The Illusion of Self

    "WHAT'S MORE (and this is another things that some folks are very confused about in this "Eastern Philosophies/Buddhism/Zen game) ... one can BOTH know the wholeness of the pie ... and live as a separate piece AT ONCE (thus, feeling "conflicts but no conflicts" at once, like two sides of a no sided coin). One cannot live as "the Pie" because we need an image of multiple things in the world to function (if you thought there was no "you" separate from "the bed" and no "place to go" ... you would not even bother to get out of bed each morning to get to work!)."
    So its not the multiple things that is a problem, its just that one needs to accept them as one accepts the wholeness of the pie. The illusion occurs when attaching to one or the other. This is definitely a full time job Thanks for your imagery. Must sit more.

    /Rich

  12. #12
    Senior Member Amelia's Avatar
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    Re: The Illusion of Self

    Thanks, Jundo. Gassho!

  13. #13
    Stephanie
    Guest

    Re: The Illusion of Self

    Quote Originally Posted by CraigfromAz
    I was reading a blog on consciousness today, and found what I considered to be a VERY interesting post about the illusion of self. It's very long (the quote below is a small part of the article), but provides some good hints on how to see this illusion:

    http://www.consciousentities.com/?p=180 (scroll down to comment 12).

    After the commenter gives a very lucid (IMO) description of what the "search for a self" can be like, he or she then posts many great quotes about the illusion of self. One that I liked in particular:

    Look, it’s all so incredibly simple. There is no one here. This is not a figure of speech. I mean there is truly no one here, no person, no individual speaking to you. You look at me and think there is a person here talking to you, trying to tell you something. I assure you, there is not. Look at me. If there were not Consciousness streaming through this body, what would be here? What would this body be if Consciousness were not here? A corpse, of course! Dead matter. There is nothing else here. There is only the appearance of a body, and Consciousness which animates it. You, along with the rest of the world, have assumed that there is a discreet individual person here: that the Consciousness which is the animating force here is an individual consciousness, unique to this body and separate from the consciousness in other bodies.
    This is based on appearances: there appear to be separate bodies, so the assumption is that there are separate consciousness-es. The belief in this assumption blinds you to seeing What Is, and is also the cause of your experience of this life as disquieting, confusing, unhappy, and generally full of fear and suffering. But it is not the case. There is in no way an individual sitting here talking to you. This body is nothing, an appearance in the dream. All there is is Consciousness, and it is Consciousness which is streaming through this appearance.

    There is nothing here that exists in and of itself. What we call the human being is not an independent being, not an originating mechanism, not a transmitter. It is a relay station, a pass-through mechanism for Consciousness, the One Consciousness, All That Is. That is what I am, talking to you. And it is the same One Consciousness listening to this, looking back at me out of those eyes you call your own. What I am when I say ‘I Am’ is exactly the same as what you are when you say ‘I Am.’

    Once seen, the irony of the situation is staggering. Look: what you think of as your’self,’ what you perceive as an individual person, this idea of being a separate entity, a body-mind-personality-soul-intellect: this is a subsequent by-product, an artifact, an almost accidental side effect of this streaming, this flowing of Consciousness. It is the streaming of Consciousness in this organism which the organism inaccurately perceives as a ‘mind’ which it thinks is its own: it is the very Consciousness streaming in this organism which allows this perception at all, which makes it possible for this organism to think it is other than that same Consciousness. A simple, innocent misperception. And a silly one, because the very One who appears to be thinking this, who appears not to see, not to understand that it is not as a separate individual and is only as All That Is, is Itself the very I-ness that is the only Is-ness of all seeing, of all understanding.

    Look into what is behind this perception. Investigate what you think of as your’self.’ This is the purpose, the meaning of all spirituality, of all seeking, of your very being: to understand this amazing intricate play of Consciousness by seeing what is this illusion, this mistaken perception, and what is its source which makes it possible. What you are, you always already are. It is by seeing what you are not that there is a stepping away from it, stepping out of the misconceived role of a separate fearful individual.

    When you step out of what you are not, what remains is not something you have to become, but what you always already are. That is why there is nothing you have to do, or become, or learn, or practice, or work at, or purify. It is completely effortless to be in your natural state. What is full of difficult, constant effort is maintaining this false and unnatural idea of being somebody, of being an individual, a separate something. You are a non-entity! Let it go! When it is let go of, you rest in the effortlessness of All That Is, of what could be called your natural state.
    Effortlessness is not something that can be attained by effort. No-mind is not a state that can be achieved by the mind. Peace cannot be achieved by striving. Trying to be aware of ‘just being in the present moment’ is a contradiction in terms; being ‘self-consciously’ aware of it takes you out of it. Trying to be aware of “I Am’ is a similar contradiction, and for the same reason. You can’t try to be happy any more than you can try to go to sleep or try to act naturally. You only act naturally when you’re not trying, not thinking, but simply going about life. People would come from all over India and the whole world to see Ramana Maharshi and ask him for advice on the spiritual path. His advice? “Just be yourself.”

    This is what Nisargadatta Maharaj said of your natural state, of what you are naturally, spontaneously, without effort:
    “This state is before the appearance of beingness.
    It is prior to or beyond beingness
    and non-beingness.
    Am, in that state which existed before the arrival
    of beingness and non-beingness.
    With the arrival of the waking state, all the world
    becomes manifest;
    because of my beingness, my world is manifest.
    That also is observed by that state which is prior
    to beingness,
    and you are That!”

    David Carse, “Perfect Brilliant Stillness”
    I liked this article enough that I printed it out and posted it by my desk. Just in case you might be interested.

    Craig
    I am a bit skeptical of the language and implications of this view of consciousness.

    Consciousness is a great mystery to me... a fascinating one... and the mystery is much more interesting than people's ready made spiritual answers as to what it is or how it came about.

    I've been very into the study of evolution and biology lately ( and astrophysics to the extent my limited brain can understand it ), and the more I learn about the current understanding of how we came about, the harder I find it to entertain the idea of some kind of consciousness that is separate from matter that "streams" through it.

    I do not think consciousness animates us... I think, perhaps, we animate consciousness.

    Consciousness may very well be "written into the code" of the universe, inevitable through natural law, which to me gives a sense of something 'spiritual' about it.

    But I've grown quite skeptical of any view that posits a "ghost in the machine." The machine and the ghost seem to be the same thing, I do not think you can separate them.

    Of course, I may be wrong. I am not convinced one way or another what we are or how we got here, just less inclined to give shrift to mystical, Cartesian dualist explications. I find them limiting, and assuming much that does not seem supported by any sort of evidence.

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