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Thread: How to attain enlightenment ...

  1. #1

    How to attain enlightenment ...

    .
    ... by dropping all need and effort to attain enlightenment ...

    ... thus, enlightenment immediately attained!


    It is often said that our Shikantaza way is about "not seeking", being "goalless", abandoning the need and search for "enlightenment" ...

    It is also said sometimes that, in "just sitting," we best drop all desire to be peaceful ... happy ... and just allow the world "as it is" (which includes our quite often being anything but feeling peaceful and happy) ...

    But let me get on my soapbox and makes some things clear, set all straight:

    Who ever said that there is "nothing to find" in, through and as this practice of "not seeking", no place to "get", no treasure to snare at the end of the rainbow?

    Not me. I never would say such a thing. Then why pursue this path?

    Who ever said there is no "enlightenment" to be achieved? I never would say that. It would not be Buddhism in that case.

    What's more, this practice lets us be happy, joyful. Who said not? Not me.

    Ya really got to pay attention to what is being said. You see:

    Just because we are "not seeking" does not mean we are "not seeking" ... nor that there aren't wondrous marvels thus to find!

    Enlightenment!

    To the marrow sitting free of seeking ... is a dandy way thus to find that which can only be found by sitting radically free of seeking. Realizing that there is no where to "get to", and no place you can get or need get ... is finally getting somewhere that will revolutionize life, and put your "you" out of a job. One gets very far, one finally arrives ... by sitting still.

    Being the "Buddha" all along, and having not a thing about you that is in need of change ... that does not mean you don't have some work to do to realize truly that you are the Buddha without need of change ... and quite of few bad habits to change in order to realize so. To realize that you are never, from the outset, in need of change is a VERY BIG CHANGE! There is absolutely nothing about you and the universe (not two) to add or take away, and tasting that there is "nothing to add" is an irreplaceably important addition!

    By being "goalless" we hit the goal ... a goal which is hit by being thoroughly goalless.

    In seeing the ordinary as sacred ... we find (as Hakuin Zenji wrote) "this earth where we stand is the Pure Lotus Land, and this very body the body of Buddha". This very life is it!

    Yes, the key is "not me" ... because that "me" is a trouble maker of frictions with the "not me" world. But depriving the "me" of its fuel, dropping body-mind, the friction vanishes. The way to "drop body-mind" is to drop all thought of achievement of "dropping body-mind" and all other need for achievement ... which results in a very major achievement, namely, the "dropping of body-mind."

    And, yes, finally ... this practice makes me happy, joyful, deep down and pervading. It is an abiding happiness and joy at a life in which I do not need to, and will not, feel happy and joyful all or much of the time. And that makes me happy! It is a Peace which sweeps in all peace and war, is at home with all ... at peace in, as and with a life that is oftimes anything but peaceful, thus True Peace.

    See how that all works?

    For more details on this wacky, crazy, Koany, Zenny way of inside out, Alice through the looking glassness ... the BRILLIANCE of our path of silently-illuminated "Non-attaining" ...

    HEED CLOSELY THE FOLLOWING!

    "Shikantaza" Zen practice is a radical, to the marrow, dropping of the self's demands that something needs to be attained to make this world "right", that something must be added or removed from our lives to make life complete, that something is defective and needs to be changed., that we need to get some place to find our "True Home".

    HOWEVER, radically dropping, to the marrow all need to attain, add or remove, or change in order to make life right and complete --IS-- A WONDROUS ATTAINMENT, ADDITION and CHANGE TO LIFE! Dropping all need to "get somewhere" is truly finally GETTING SOMEWHERE! The True Home is here and everywhere! Abandoning all need in life's race to cross some finish line over a distant hill, is simply arriving at the finish line which is our every step!

    ALL THAT, even as we continue to move forward, make choices, have preferences ... LIVE! Moving forward, yet as still and unmoving as a mountain or a stone ... having choices and preferences while choices and preferences are fully dropped, and we drop all demands to get somewhere ... living passionately, yet not a prisoner of passions ... at once, the still mountains walking, the stone women dancing ...

    We fix what needs to be fixed .. in this world, in our life ... all without thought of something to repair. We clean what needs to be cleaned ... the messes and disasters and filthy oil spills ... yet there is no "clean" or "dirty".

    GOT HOW THAT WORKS?

    All the conflict and division is dropped from mind ... with other related clutter and clatter like thoughts of this and that, self and other ... and, in doing so, the body-mind of self (being out of a job) drops away too!

    ZAZEN ANSWERS GREAT QUESTIONS AND MYSTERIES

    You bet your sweet kind of non-existent ass it does!

    For the first time in our sentient lives ... perhaps since the womb ... life is without the division of "self" and "other". The intimate wholeness and interpenetration of all this life=self=world is just who we are. We are as whole and complete and unbroken as raindrops are falling rain, a breeze but the gently moving air. All barriers and resistance tumbles away.

    Like all warm blooded animals, humans feel we must hunt, improve, capture life, attain goals and reach "success" ... yet, for the first time, this practice allows us to experience life as the stones and trees and stars and mountains. Do stones feel that they must get somewhere, achieve something to be more "stoney"? Does little Mt. Tsukuba feel some sense of lack and inferiority when it considers and compares its life to tall Mt. Everest? Is there a star in the sky that thinks "I do not belong in this universe, and this is not my place and time"? Do birds move through the sky leaving traces?

    Can we be more as the flowers and trees which, naturally sprouting from the ground, growing, reaching for the sun, seeding life generation to generation ... yet toil not, have no goal or thought of achievement? Flowers achieve, yet without thought of achieving!

    Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

    And thus we sit Zazen ... as a sacred act, as natural whole holy ... as a flower reaching for the sun.

    In Zazen, we learn to see and penetrate the deep interpentration and interbeing of all things, all time, all events, all beings. Phenomena on worlds countless light years away, and the dew on the nearest blade of grass are each as much "you" as the winking and blinking of your own eye.

    In that way ... the mystery of life and death is no mystery at all ... for the simple reason that there never was a separate self to be born, thus no separate self to die. Where is the air when the wind stops to blow? Where does the sea "go" when the single wave vanishes? We are as the little wave, looking for the water and afraid of what lies ahead when it crashes on the beach!

    The human mind imposes judgments on the life=self=world ... it is "good" it is "bad" ... it is "starting here" and "ending there" ... it is "originating in the past" and "rolling toward the future" ... etc. etc. Instead, our Zen practice gives rise to a reality without judgment, destination, here vs. there ... past future --or-- present (for by what measure is "now" without any other time to compare it to?). What remains is alive and very GOOD!

    For the first time perhaps we experience reality in what, to ordinary minds, is typically considered contradictory ways ... moving forward in actively living, yet always right here.

    It might even allow us a glimpse of the "non-origin" of all reality ... beyond small human ideas of "created vs. uncreated" "finite vs. infinite" "beginning vs. what was before the beginning?" "ending vs. what comes after the ending?" "purpose vs. no purpose". What is one's foundation, original face without all thought of source, here/there, coming and going?

    What remains when all that is dropped away? SPEAK! SPEAK!

    Yet the wind blows, the star shines, the flower reaches for the sun.


    Oh, sure, there are some mysteries that this practice won't tell you much about, such as God's favorite ice cream flavor, whether Big Foot really exists, whether Clapton or Santana or Page is the greater guitar player, whether a circle is just a round square.

    However, those other resolved and dissolved mysteries are enough.

    CAUTION: Of course, this must NOT be understood merely intellectually, and instead actually made the living practice of our life ... thus, all that Zazen! Chasing that which cannot be chased, attaining that which need not and cannot be attained.

    Now, someone has also rightly pointed out that Zen is not a solution to many of life's problems. Zazen is not a "self help tool". It will not let you avoid growing old, cure your cancer, repair your broken marriage, or even fix your flat tire. It will not add one thing to your life, nor make any improvement in it whatsoever.

    And realizing that is instantly a solution to all your problems ... because they are not problems when you do not resist them as problems, and when all separation of "me" from "them" drops away.

    ... body-mind is dropped away when all resistance to life is dropped away ... putting the self on the shelf ...

    Enlightenment.

    Gassho, Jundo
    Last edited by Jundo; 10-08-2013 at 02:19 PM.

  2. #2

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Gassho is all I can say after that. Time to sit

  3. #3
    Senior Member Shujin's Avatar
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    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Thank you for the above - my scatterbrained self needed a bit of focus.

    gassho,
    Chris

  4. #4

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    .
    ... by dropping all need and effort to attain enlightenment ...

    ... thus, enlightenment immediately attained!


    It is often said that our Shikantaza way is about "not seeking", being "goalless", abandoning the need and search for "enlightenment" ...

    It is also said sometimes that, in "just sitting," we best drop all desire to be peaceful ... happy ... and just allow the world "as it is" (which includes our quite often being anything but feeling peaceful and happy) ...

    But let me get on my soapbox and makes some things clear, set all straight:

    Who ever said that there is "nothing to find" in, through and as this practice of "not seeking", no place to "get", no treasure to snare at the end of the rainbow?

    Not me. I never would say such a thing. Then why pursue this path?

    Who ever said there is no "enlightenment" to be achieved? I never would say that. It would not be Buddhism in that case.

    What's more, this practice lets us be happy, joyful. Who said not? Not me.

    Ya really got to pay attention to what is being said. You see:

    Just because we are "not seeking" does not mean we are "not seeking" ... nor that there aren't wondrous marvels thus to find!

    Enlightenment!

    To the marrow sitting free of seeking ... is a dandy way thus to find that which can only be found by sitting radically free of seeking. Realizing that there is no where to "get to", and no place you can get or need get ... is finally getting somewhere that will revolutionize life, and put your "you" out of a job. One gets very far, one finally arrives ... by sitting still.

    Being the "Buddha" all along, and having not a thing about you that is in need of change ... that does not mean you don't have some work to do to realize truly that you are the Buddha without need of change. To realize that you are never, from the outset, in need of change is a VERY BIG CHANGE! There is absolutely nothing about you and the universe (not two) to add or take away, and tasting that there is "nothing to add" is an irreplaceably important addition!

    By being "goalless" we hit the goal ... a goal which is hit by being thoroughly goalless.

    In seeing the ordinary as sacred ... we find (as Hakuin Zenji wrote) "this earth where we stand is the Pure Lotus Land, and this very body the body of Buddha". This very life is it!

    Yes, the key is "not me" ... because that "me" is a trouble maker of frictions with the "not me" world. But depriving the "me" of its fuel, dropping body-mind, the friction vanishes. The way to "drop body-mind" is to drop all thought of achievement of "dropping body-mind" and all other need for achievement ... which results in a very major achievement, namely, the "dropping of body-mind."

    And, yes, finally ... this practice makes me happy, joyful, deep down and pervading. It is an abiding happiness and joy at a life in which I do not need to, and will not, feel happy and joyful all or much of the time. And that makes me happy! It is a Peace which sweeps in all peace and war, is at home with all ... at peace in, as and with a life that is oftimes anything but peaceful, thus True Peace.

    See how that all works?

    For more details on this wacky, crazy, Koany, Zenny way of inside out, Alice through the looking glassy way forward to always this place ... the BRILLIANCE of our path of silently-illuminated "Non-attaining" ...

    HEED CLOSELY THE FOLLOWING!

    "Shikantaza" Zen practice is a radical, to the marrow, dropping of the self's demands that something needs to be attained to make this world "right", that something must be added or removed from our lives to make life complete, that something is defective and needs to be changed., that we need to get some place to find our "True Home".

    HOWEVER, radically dropping, to the marrow all need to attain, add or remove, or change in order to make life right and complete --IS-- A WONDROUS ATTAINMENT, ADDITION and CHANGE TO LIFE! Dropping all need to "get somewhere" is truly finally GETTING SOMEWHERE! The True Home is here and everywhere! Abandoning all need in life's race to cross some finish line over a distant hill, is simply arriving at the finish line which is our every step!

    ALL THAT, even as we continue to move forward, make choices, have preferences ... LIVE! Moving forward, yet as still and unmoving as a mountain or a stone ... having choices and preferences while choices and preferences are fully dropped, and we drop all demands to get somewhere ... living passionately, yet not a prisoner of passions ... at once, the still mountains walking, the stone women dancing ...

    We fix what needs to be fixed .. in this world, in our life ... all without thought of something to repair. We clean what needs to be cleaned ... the messes and disasters and filthy oil spills ... yet there is no "clean" or "dirty".

    GOT HOW THAT WORKS? 8)

    All the conflict and division is dropped from mind ... with other related clutter and clatter like thoughts of this and that, self and other ... and, in doing so, the body-mind of self (being out of a job) drops away too!

    ZAZEN ANSWERS GREAT QUESTIONS AND MYSTERIES

    You bet your sweet kind of non-existent ass it does!

    For the first time in our sentient lives ... perhaps since the womb ... life is without the division of "self" and "other". The intimate wholeness and interpenetration of all this life=self=world is just who we are. We are as whole and complete and unbroken as raindrops are falling rain, a breeze but the gently moving air. All barriers and resistance tumbles away.

    Like all warm blooded animals, humans feel we must hunt, improve, capture life, attain goals and reach "success" ... yet, for the first time, this practice allows us to experience life as the stones and trees and stars and mountains. Do stones feel that they must get somewhere, achieve something to be more "stoney"? Does little Mt. Tsukuba feel some sense of lack and inferiority when it considers and compares its life to tall Mt. Everest? Is there a star in the sky that thinks "I do not belong in this universe, and this is not my place and time"? Do birds move through the sky leaving traces?

    Can we be more as the flowers and trees which, naturally sprouting from the ground, growing, reaching for the sun, seeding life generation to generation ... yet toil not, have no goal or thought of achievement? Flowers achieve, yet without thought of achieving!

    Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

    And thus we sit Zazen ... as a sacred act, as natural whole holy ... as a flower reaching for the sun.

    In Zazen, we learn to see and penetrate the deep interpentration and interbeing of all things, all time, all events, all beings. Phenomena on worlds countless light years away, and the dew on the nearest blade of grass are each as much "you" as the winking and blinking of your own eye.

    In that way ... the mystery of life and death is no mystery at all ... for the simple reason that there never was a separate self to be born, thus no separate self to die. Where is the air when the wind stops to blow? Where does the sea "go" when the single wave vanishes? We are as the little wave, looking for the water and afraid of what lies ahead when it crashes on the beach!

    The human mind imposes judgments on the life=self=world ... it is "good" it is "bad" ... it is "starting here" and "ending there" ... it is "originating in the past" and "rolling toward the future" ... etc. etc. Instead, our Zen practice gives rise to a reality without judgment, destination, here vs. there ... past future --or-- present (for by what measure is "now" without any other time to compare it to?). What remains is alive and very GOOD!

    For the first time perhaps we experience reality in what, to ordinary minds, is typically considered contradictory ways ... moving forward in actively living, yet always right here.

    It might even allow us a glimpse of the "non-origin" of all reality ... beyond small human ideas of "created vs. uncreated" "finite vs. infinite" "beginning vs. what was before the beginning?" "ending vs. what comes after the ending?" "purpose vs. purposeless" What is one's foundation, original face without all thought of source, here/there, coming and going?

    What remains when all that is dropped away? SPEAK! SPEAK!

    Yet the wind blows, the star shines, the flower reaches for the sun.


    Oh, sure, there are some mysteries that this practice won't tell you much about, such as God's favorite ice cream flavor, whether Big Foot really exists, whether Clapton or Santana or Page is the greater guitar player, whether a circle is just a round square.

    However, those other resolved and dissolved mysteries are enough.

    CAUTION: Of course, this must NOT be understood merely intellectually, and instead actually made the living practice of our life ... thus, all that Zazen! Chasing that which cannot be chased, attaining that which need not and cannot be attained.

    Now, someone has also rightly pointed out that Zen is not a solution to many of life's problems. Zazen is not a "self help tool". It will not let you avoid growing old, cure your cancer, repair your broken marriage, or even fix your flat tire. It will not add one thing to your life, nor make any improvement in it whatsoever.

    And realizing that is instantly a solution to all your problems ... because they are not problems when you do not resist them as problems, and when all separation of "me" from "them" drops away.

    ... body-mind is dropped away when all resistance to life is dropped away ... putting the self on the shelf ...

    Enlightenment.

    Gassho, Jundo

  5. #5

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Thank you for this Jundo. It is time to go sit now.

    gassho,
    Corey

  6. #6
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Ah yes,

    But sincerity is necessary too.

    Chet

  7. #7

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Gassho,
    Janne

  8. #8

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    I have been sitting much more regularly, reading, and thinking on this path of Buddhism and enlightenment, non-attaining and so forth. The realization I have come to, thus far, which is far from perfect, is that the things that are attendant with seeking enlightenment and such are why we don’t get there. We say, “Drop all thought of attaining enlightenment” because when you think, “I must attain enlightenment” you are basically saying that where you are in life, understanding, your practice, etc. is not good enough. You think, “there must be something more, something else.” This thought literally creates the separation. This is the same mechanism that very rich people sometimes have, when they equate the fact that they have more money than other people to mean that they are BETTER than other people, as though you could have more value or worth as a sentient being because of how many pieces of green paper you can stack on top of one another. As Shakyamuni Buddha said in the Dhammapada, “With our thoughts, we make the world”. When you believe that there is something to search for, you search. Realizing that this life is perfectly “what-it-is” even (or especially) when it is anything but OUR IDEA of perfect, is enlightenment. Our practice is to realize when, how, and why delusion leads us away from true understanding. This is the work that we need to do to get to a point where we realize that the act of living free from these ideas is Nirvana. This is why we say that even though there is no attaining and nothing to attain, that we still need to work toward something, because we are working on ourselves to realize that our “selves” are standing in our way, blocking the view. When you can accept the perfection of a rainy day as effortlessly as a walk on a tropic beach, or when you can accept the sadness and emotional pain of the loss of a friend or loved one as completely as accepting that water is wet and the sun rises in the East, this is true enlightenment. We often times have this idea that we’ll sit and one day a clap of thunder will sound, and we’ll feel this pervading sense of peace and happiness at all times, signaling that we’ve finally made it to enlightenment, but I think that this is not the case (though, if I'm honest, I think I had something like this idea when I first started to practice). I think that when we sit zazen, and we find that the cat meowing is no longer a distraction, that we are no longer worrying about what we will do tomorrow, but simply sitting and embracing “this-moment-as-it-is” realizing that life is life and good, bad, happy, sad, mad, cold, hot, joyful, sorrowful or whatever, that is where you are right then, at this moment for as long as it takes for this moment to pass and become the next “this moment”, that is your home. I have been reflecting on a line from a poem that Dogen Zenji wrote where he says, “But do not ask me where I am going, in this limitless world, where every step I take is my home”

    I feel that this could be enlightenment. The though that no matter where I am (physically, emotionally, mentally, Zen-ally) that this is home, this is where I belong, because I could not possibly be anywhere else, the whole time I am continuing to walk, always moving forward in a direction that is both East and West, forward, backward, side-to-side, and always arriving Home. This is my practice, and I struggle with this concept often because my attachments still dog me at times, but I am constantly trying to improve in my practice, while always trying to being content where I am.

  9. #9

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Thank you, Jundo!

    Deep Gassho,

    Adam

  10. #10

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Wonderfully put Jundo

    Gassho

    Rich

  11. #11

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Thank you Jundo for this wonderful post! It has given me much to think about.

    Gassho

    Bill

  12. #12
    Treeleaf Unsui rculver's Avatar
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    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    . . .

  13. #13

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnsonCM
    ... because when you think, “I must attain enlightenment” you are basically saying that where you are in life, understanding, your practice, etc. is not good enough. You think, “there must be something more, something else.” This thought literally creates the separation.
    That's a really, really good point. I'm reading Pema Chodron's "The Wisdom of No Escape" p. 14

    "This is not an improvement plan; it is not a situation in which you try to be better than you are now. If you have a bad temper and you feel that you harm yourself and others, you might think that sitting for a week or a month will make your bad temper to away-- you will be that sweet person that you always wanted to be. Never again will a harsh word leave your lily-white lips. The problem is that the desire to change is fundamentally a form of aggression toward yourself.""

  14. #14

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnsonCM
    ... because when you think, “I must attain enlightenment” you are basically saying that where you are in life, understanding, your practice, etc. is not good enough. You think, “there must be something more, something else.” This thought literally creates the separation.
    That's a really, really good point. I'm reading Pema Chodron's "The Wisdom of No Escape" p. 14

    "This is not an improvement plan; it is not a situation in which you try to be better than you are now. If you have a bad temper and you feel that you harm yourself and others, you might think that sitting for a week or a month will make your bad temper to away-- you will be that sweet person that you always wanted to be. Never again will a harsh word leave your lily-white lips. The problem is that the desire to change is fundamentally a form of aggression toward yourself.""
    Exactly. This is not to say that a person shouldn't work on their anger issue, however, but more of a wake up call to look at it in a different way. That passage seems to allude that the person being referenced is trying to use zazen as a cure or a way to fix the problem. Zazen is zazen. If, however, you try to understand where the anger is coming from, and view it through the Dharma, you might see that the person you are angry at is confused, or misguided and their attachments are causing them to do something that you get angry over, or that your own attachments to your own likes and dislikes are clouding your own view and you are becoming angry over the situation. This is why it is so important to overcome these delusions, because after enough time, they become real.

  15. #15

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnsonCM
    Exactly. This is not to say that a person shouldn't work on their anger issue, however, but more of a wake up call to look at it in a different way. That passage seems to allude that the person being referenced is trying to use zazen as a cure or a way to fix the problem. Zazen is zazen. If, however, you try to understand where the anger is coming from, and view it through the Dharma, you might see that the person you are angry at is confused, or misguided and their attachments are causing them to do something that you get angry over, or that your own attachments to your own likes and dislikes are clouding your own view and you are becoming angry over the situation. This is why it is so important to overcome these delusions, because after enough time, they become real.
    I feel that this is very well said, Chris, as are so many of the teachings you express these days. Thank you again.

    Becoming aware of the "mind theatre" ... recognizing early signs that anger is starting to arise in us, the triggers and seeds that set it off ... coming to see it as not fixed in stone, and learning to detach from harmful emotions ... are all helpful skills in catching it early and heading it off at the pass.

    In our corner of Buddhism, the goal is not to "put the fires of anger out" but, instead, to keep them at healthful and helpful levels ... and for constructive uses and directions ... like a camp fire for cooking a meal which, if raging out of control, can burn down the whole forest!

    viewtopic.php?p=36908#p36908

    Another take on "improving ourselves" hand in hand with seeing (and by seeing) that there is "no self to improve" is here ... I usually post this ... It is important that we develop this "multi channel vision" ...

    One can fix things with the attitude that there is nothing to fix ...

    Someone wrote to ask whether all this "self acceptance" and embracing ourselves "just as we are" means that, for example, a wife beater or alcoholic or thief should just accept themselves like that, not seek to change or live any other way.

    No. Please recall that, in our Zen Way, we live on several channels at once ... seemingly contradictory, yet not contradictory at all.

    I want to reach for Jundo's handy-dandy "acceptance without acceptance" formula here, and apply it to our personal natures:

    So, in our "Just Sitting" Shikantaza, we completely accept the universe, and all in it, just as it is. We drop all thoughts of likes and dislikes, dreams and regrets and need for change, hopes and fears. Yet simultaneously, hand in hand without the slightest deviation (on another mental "track", if you want to say that), we live our lives as human beings, and living life requires choices, goals, likes and dislikes, dreams and hopes.

    Thus, living our life is much like living in a house with a leaky roof, spiders and broken windows. In Master Dogen's way, we simply sit to drop all resistance to the house we have been living in all along, to realize that there is nowhere to 'go' in life, to cease all efforts to add to or take away from the structure, to let go of the ego's insisting on how things "should be" in order for the house to be "good" ... we ARE that house, our True Home! Then we find, in dropping that resistance, that the house we have always been in is "perfectly what it is", and we can be joyful right where we are. HOWEVER, we can be content with that house even as, hand in hand, there is still much serious repair work to do (an acceptance-without-acceptance of the leaky windows, spiders and creaky doors). There is nothing to prevent our fixing those, even as we accept their existence! We can accept and not accept simultaneously, repair what needs to be repaired.

    We have goals for repair even as, on the other "track", we drop all goals and thoughts of repair.

    So, even as we can accept that we are a wife beating alcoholic, we should immediately set to not be so! One simply cannot taste the fruits of Buddhist practice if one is so filled with anger, violence, pain and need that one is a violent, abusive alcoholic!

    And what guides us onto the smooth path for life?

    Yes, the Precepts.
    It is a lot easier to deal with personal anger issues when you accept that and everything else ... because the trigger to anger is usually the lack of an abilitity to accept things! So, by dropping resistance toward the flaw of anger and the rest of life ... we help lose the flaw of anger because anger is an excess resistance toward life.

    Funny how that works! :shock:

    Gassho, J

  16. #16

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Thank you, Jundo, you’re going to make me blush. ops:

    If I may, though, I would like to use this comment to say something about the importance of having a teacher, for some of the newer members of the sangha. When I first started learning about Buddhism and practicing, some 6 or so years ago, I read lots of books and looked up lots of things on the internet. I learned about the 4 Noble Truths and the Eightfold Noble Path, no-self, compassion, etc. and I thought that I understood it well enough. I had read many things from many teachers that stressed the importance of the student teacher relationship, but I ignored it thinking that it was them patting themselves on the back, and that the teaching was the teaching whether it was in a book or spoken by the roshi. I thought that I understood the teaching, so there was no need for a teacher, and I even thought that some of the other attendant practices, like meditation, were not needed. Then, around 6 months ago, I Googled “jukai online” on a whim and found Treeleaf. I figured, what the heck, can’t lose anything by checking it out, and spoke with Jundo. I joined the sangha in January and started reading the posts by other members, asking questions, reading some of the books recommended by Jundo, and kept in email correspondence with him. Now I can see that my original understanding of the Dharma was, and still is, incomplete. There were holes in my understanding of the Dharma that I filled with whatever made sense to me at the time, and these “filler” thoughts were just shadows of my delusions and attachments. Now, through my study under Jundo and Taigu, as well as the many amazing posts by members like Chet and Stephanie, as well as some of the newer members (names sometimes escape me, sorry), I find that I am better able to connect the dots, as it were. The “filler” thoughts I had, I can see where they are incorrect and at opposition to true understanding, and the answers to the questions I have had, the responses to some of my posts and the posts of others here, now bridge that gap between the pieces that I learned from before, and the many new aspects of the Dharma that I continue to experience.

    So, what does this all mean? Basically, I’m saying that the student / teacher relationship is indispensable, from my own personal experience. A person may study the Dharma from a book, but I think that unless you are an exceptionally realized person, the likelihood is that you will have “filler” thoughts, and they will be barriers on the path. I believe that I can safely say that the only reason that I understand what little of the Dharma that I do now, is because of this sangha, its members, and Jundo and Taigu’s teachings.

  17. #17
    Stephanie
    Guest

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Great post, Chris--definitely not filler! :wink:

    I'm happy that any of my posts have been useful to you as you find your own way on the Zen path... as I continue to learn we must all do...

    The way you put this is so clear, and helpful. I agree that we fill our brains with random junk to fill in the gaps in the picture... we don't want gaps... but gaps in the picture are our doorways into truth...

    these “filler” thoughts were just shadows of my delusions and attachments
    Yes! Perfectly stated--

    Gassho

  18. #18

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    I absolutely love this Sangha and its teachers. I'm so grateful to all that you've taught me and your patience and the time you personally take to correct me when I mis-quote or completely misunderstand stuff.

    With the point about accepting something as is and then fixing it, is it sort of saying "S%# or get off the pot?" I'm sorry for the vernacular, but is it sort of like you have to accept the state of things before you can truly take action on changing them? Sort of like quitting smoking or being out of shape or whatever. If you don't love yourself because your fat or an addict to something, changing that is not going to auto-magically fix anything. And the only way to take action is by focusing on the action. If you take energy to bitch and complain, it does nothing to change the situation.

    Is that kind of the same thing? I ask because I get hung up a lot on this idea of getting better, that I have to do or understand or whatever to get better.

  19. #19

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril
    I absolutely love this Sangha and its teachers. I'm so grateful to all that you've taught me and your patience and the time you personally take to correct me when I mis-quote or completely misunderstand stuff.

    With the point about accepting something as is and then fixing it, is it sort of saying "S%# or get off the pot?" I'm sorry for the vernacular, but is it sort of like you have to accept the state of things before you can truly take action on changing them? Sort of like quitting smoking or being out of shape or whatever. If you don't love yourself because your fat or an addict to something, changing that is not going to auto-magically fix anything. And the only way to take action is by focusing on the action. If you take energy to bitch and complain, it does nothing to change the situation.

    Is that kind of the same thing? I ask because I get hung up a lot on this idea of getting better, that I have to do or understand or whatever to get better.
    Well, my personal take on it is like this. You are where you are. You might wish you were anywhere else, but you aren't, you are where you are. You can walk 15 feet to your left if you want, but the whole time you are doing that, you are where you are. Each and every step takes you home, to that place which you perfectly and naturally belong, because you ARE there. So accept it. Realize that you are where you are, and that you are COMPLETELY there. Let's take your example of quitting smoking. Say, Bob is a smoker, but wishes to quit. He can say, "I want to quit." and "I wish I wasn't addicted" but he hasn't quit, and he is addicted. He could be on the road to quitting and say, "I wish this road was over." or "I wish I was through this already." but it isn't over and he's not through it. Bob is living in a world that exists only in his mind. He's seeing what hasn't happend, or what he wishes would happen, and that is clouding his vision of what IS RIGHT NOW. If Bob, instead, were a smoker who wanted to quit and said, "I am not happy with this, I am going to quit." but was content with the world as it was at that moment and was at peace with Bob-at-this-moment, then he would be accepting things as they are, while still working toward a goal. In 3 weeks, when Bob has cut down to 1 cigarette per day instead of 10, he can say, "I am on the path to quitting smoking. I am not there yet, but that is ok. I am no less a person because I haven't quit completely, nor am I a "better" person for giving up a vice. I am simply Bob, who has cut down to 1 cigarette per day from 10, on this path of quitting smoking." He'll be able to say something similar once he no longer smokes. The world changes, and people move in whatever direction they choose. Accepting things as they are, but moving toward something is a difficult concept, because we have this understanding of a thing is either done, or not done, either complete or unfinished. We have trouble with the idea of walking on a path, planting every foot step like we were planting a tree, part of that place, time, and situation, completely there as though every action you had ever taken had come together with the express purpose of causing you to step EXACTLY there....... until the next foot step. And then, there is simply walking. When we walk, we barely even register the mechanism of walking, one foot in front of the other, we simply do it. Like the mandalas of some Buddhist sects. They work so hard on them, being completely in harmony with the mandala at every stage, from begining with the first grain of sand to the last, just being there and putting each grain of sand where it is, then washing it away in the stream. That is accepting things as they are, in my oppinion. Knowing that something is imperminant and is destined to disappear, while walking on the path because we are on the path and we must walk, living every step as though the world was still framed with each step, knowing full well that I am only a little peice of an unknowably large machine, and simply taking the next step.

  20. #20

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Thank you

  21. #21
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnsonCM
    Quote Originally Posted by cyril
    I absolutely love this Sangha and its teachers. I'm so grateful to all that you've taught me and your patience and the time you personally take to correct me when I mis-quote or completely misunderstand stuff.

    With the point about accepting something as is and then fixing it, is it sort of saying "S%# or get off the pot?" I'm sorry for the vernacular, but is it sort of like you have to accept the state of things before you can truly take action on changing them? Sort of like quitting smoking or being out of shape or whatever. If you don't love yourself because your fat or an addict to something, changing that is not going to auto-magically fix anything. And the only way to take action is by focusing on the action. If you take energy to bitch and complain, it does nothing to change the situation.

    Is that kind of the same thing? I ask because I get hung up a lot on this idea of getting better, that I have to do or understand or whatever to get better.
    Well, my personal take on it is like this. You are where you are. You might wish you were anywhere else, but you aren't, you are where you are. You can walk 15 feet to your left if you want, but the whole time you are doing that, you are where you are. Each and every step takes you home, to that place which you perfectly and naturally belong, because you ARE there. So accept it. Realize that you are where you are, and that you are COMPLETELY there. Let's take your example of quitting smoking. Say, Bob is a smoker, but wishes to quit. He can say, "I want to quit." and "I wish I wasn't addicted" but he hasn't quit, and he is addicted. He could be on the road to quitting and say, "I wish this road was over." or "I wish I was through this already." but it isn't over and he's not through it. Bob is living in a world that exists only in his mind. He's seeing what hasn't happend, or what he wishes would happen, and that is clouding his vision of what IS RIGHT NOW. If Bob, instead, were a smoker who wanted to quit and said, "I am not happy with this, I am going to quit." but was content with the world as it was at that moment and was at peace with Bob-at-this-moment, then he would be accepting things as they are, while still working toward a goal. In 3 weeks, when Bob has cut down to 1 cigarette per day instead of 10, he can say, "I am on the path to quitting smoking. I am not there yet, but that is ok. I am no less a person because I haven't quit completely, nor am I a "better" person for giving up a vice. I am simply Bob, who has cut down to 1 cigarette per day from 10, on this path of quitting smoking." He'll be able to say something similar once he no longer smokes. The world changes, and people move in whatever direction they choose. Accepting things as they are, but moving toward something is a difficult concept, because we have this understanding of a thing is either done, or not done, either complete or unfinished. We have trouble with the idea of walking on a path, planting every foot step like we were planting a tree, part of that place, time, and situation, completely there as though every action you had ever taken had come together with the express purpose of causing you to step EXACTLY there....... until the next foot step. And then, there is simply walking. When we walk, we barely even register the mechanism of walking, one foot in front of the other, we simply do it. Like the mandalas of some Buddhist sects. They work so hard on them, being completely in harmony with the mandala at every stage, from begining with the first grain of sand to the last, just being there and putting each grain of sand where it is, then washing it away in the stream. That is accepting things as they are, in my oppinion. Knowing that something is imperminant and is destined to disappear, while walking on the path because we are on the path and we must walk, living every step as though the world was still framed with each step, knowing full well that I am only a little peice of an unknowably large machine, and simply taking the next step.
    Have you ever smoked?

    Chet

  22. #22

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Yes. By the time I found out that my wife was pregnant with my oldest son, I was up to a pack a day of Camel lights. I had smoked for around 7 years or so by then (started early :? ) but when I learned she was pregnant, I quit. Of course I moved to chewing tobacco, but promised myself that I would stop "dipping" when I got out of the Corps. and I had my last dip on my last day in. It was tough, but I haven't picked up again, and that was 10 years ago, so I'm thankful.

  23. #23
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Good on ya, Chris.

    I have to correct you on something though. Clearly my posts have not been useful to you - as I've been sternly reminded and told to stop making posts such as those you reference. This goes doubly since you are new here and my posts have been deemed particularly terrible for new folks.

    Chet

  24. #24

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnsonCM
    Yes. By the time I found out that my wife was pregnant with my oldest son, I was up to a pack a day of Camel lights. I had smoked for around 7 years or so by then (started early :? ) but when I learned she was pregnant, I quit. Of course I moved to chewing tobacco, but promised myself that I would stop "dipping" when I got out of the Corps. and I had my last dip on my last day in. It was tough, but I haven't picked up again, and that was 10 years ago, so I'm thankful.
    Lovely.

    Two pack a day smoker Buddha is perfectly what he is.

    Trying to cut back to a few a day Buddha is perfectly what he is.

    Wearing the "nicotine patches" Buddha is perfectly just what he is, as are the patches.

    Going "Cold Turkey Buddha" (the way I quit 20 years ago ... and what I recommend to most folks together with the patches) is perfectly what he is.

    Searching the ashtrays and garbage can for half-smoked butts Buddha is perfectly what he is.

    Falling off the wagon and smoking that soggy butt Buddha is perfectly what he is.

    Getting back on the wagon Buddha is perfectly what he is.

    Being away from cigarettes for 20 years but still getting a craving once in awhile Buddha is perfectly what he is.

    Zazen will not assure you to quit smoking. In fact, one time I went to Sesshin at Soji-ji to quit smoking ... until I found that all the "smoker monks" were hanging out behind the Zendo between sittings!

    However, accepting life, accepting onself (not two, by the way) ... relaxing into it all, even relaxing into the struggle and ups and downs and struggle again ... SURE HELPS!

    The first two days are the hardest, then the first week, then the first month ... strong cravings will come.

    I usually advice people to "do Zazen" when a craving comes ... wherever they are, find Zazen mind ... and if they can stay like that for 20 minutes, biting their lip if need be ... the craving will usually pass.

    Craving comes again ... repeat, repeat.

    Gassho, J (20+ years without a smoke)

  25. #25

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Good on ya, Chris.

    I have to correct you on something though. Clearly my posts have not been useful to you - as I've been sternly reminded and told to stop making posts such as those you reference. This goes doubly since you are new here and my posts have been deemed particularly terrible for new folks.

    Chet
    I don't know that I agree with you on that one, Chet. I try to stay open to being taught in all directions. One of my favorite quotes from Aitken Roshi's Mind of Clover, and one I try to remember throughout my day, is "the Chinese thrush sings in my heart, and clouds pass through the blue sky of my mind. All things are my teachers." I learn something from every post you make, even if it's not what I originally thought I was looking for. In my oppinion, you and Stephanie are pretty well balanced, she has a subtle wisdom, where your wisdom is more immediate.

  26. #26
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnsonCM
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Good on ya, Chris.

    I have to correct you on something though. Clearly my posts have not been useful to you - as I've been sternly reminded and told to stop making posts such as those you reference. This goes doubly since you are new here and my posts have been deemed particularly terrible for new folks.

    Chet
    I don't know that I agree with you on that one, Chet. I try to stay open to being taught in all directions. One of my favorite quotes from Aitken Roshi's Mind of Clover, and one I try to remember throughout my day, is "the Chinese thrush sings in my heart, and clouds pass through the blue sky of my mind. All things are my teachers." I learn something from every post you make, even if it's not what I originally thought I was looking for. In my oppinion, you and Stephanie are pretty well balanced, she has a subtle wisdom, where your wisdom is more immediate.
    Your teachers have come down quite decidedly on the other side from you here. I've been told pretty irrefutably that I bring nothing of value here.

    So, once again, you ought to reconsider.

    Chet

  27. #27

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    I've been told pretty irrefutably that I bring nothing of value here.
    I don't believe that at all, Chet! You've brought many things to light for me. You just go about it a different way. You're direct. Sometimes that is needed. I believe the sangha would suffer without you present.

    Gassho,

    Adam

  28. #28
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    I've been told pretty irrefutably that I bring nothing of value here.
    I really doubt that either Jundo or Taigu said you "bring nothing of value"! And I agree with Adam that your departure would be a loss for the sangha and that your direct approach is needed sometimes. But sometimes it isn't...and I fear some of the more shy among us don't post for fear of being barraged with that directness...when sometimes we just want to know we are heard.

    I hope you hang around Chet...life here would be pretty dull without you. 8)

    Gassho,
    Dosho

  29. #29
    Stephanie
    Guest

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Well, apparently the standard of practice here at Treeleaf is, if you're quiet and have nice family values and like group hugs and pastel colors and bunny rabbits, you're a good practitioner, but if you challenge people or are ever harsh in any way you don't belong in the community and have no wisdom, no matter how many people have found what you have to say inspiring, helpful, or... enlightening.

    Because Jundo and Taigu are ready to kick Chet out... or silence him... for no clear reason I can muster. And doing it all behind closed doors, of course. Just FYI to anyone here who likes his contributions to the sangha.

    I think it's ridiculous that Jundo and Taigu just a week ago posted about how people that come here to practice seem to have such a casual air about it. This bothers you... and yet you go on continuing to reprimand and silence and ban anyone who has real passion for this matter of life and death.

    So keep on creating the sangha you want to create, guys. Sooner or later this will be nothing but a glorified chat room for Buddhist parenting tips and New Age poetry about how lovely dandelions are. And you'll ask yourself why no serious practitioners stay here, no one who would put it all on the line for awakening, who would leave the comforts of home behind to clarify this great matter--all the while you keep kicking such people out because they throw off the totally passionless, gutless, ballless vibe of this place, where nothing should ever matter enough that we get ourselves worked up about it. Zen as the new Xanax, for bored housewives and house-husbands everywhere.

  30. #30
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Stephanie,

    I don't know what voice to use when I respond to you because my demeanor doesn't seem to be acceptable, but I would just like to say this: If you feel Chet was mistreated...if you feel your way of being isn't acceptable here...if we aren't serious practioners, then do one of two things. Leave...or stay. You've done the cut and run thing before, so why not try the stay and deal with the messy stuff method? I don't think Chet was banned...you haven't been banned. So, why leave? Are we that intolerable? Nothing can be worked out? If that's true and you both leave, that's very unfortunate...I hope you'd reconsider.

    Treeleaf may not be what you'd like it to be...maybe that means we need to change....maybe that means you do. Or maybe it's never that clear cut and we figure this stuff out the messy way. I have no idea which of those it will be. Why don't we find that out? I'm willing if you are.

    Gassho,
    Dosho

  31. #31

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dosho
    Stephanie,

    I don't know what voice to use when I respond to you because my demeanor doesn't seem to be acceptable, but I would just like to say this: If you feel Chet was mistreated...if you feel your way of being isn't acceptable here...if we aren't serious practioners, then do one of two things. Leave...or stay. You've done the cut and run thing before, so why not try the stay and deal with the messy stuff method? I don't think Chet was banned...you haven't been banned. So, why leave? Are we that intolerable? Nothing can be worked out? If that's true and you both leave, that's very unfortunate...I hope you'd reconsider.

    Treeleaf may not be what you'd like it to be...maybe that means we need to change....maybe that means you do. Or maybe it's never that clear cut and we figure this stuff out the messy way. I have no idea which of those it will be. Why don't we find that out? I'm willing if you are.

    Gassho,
    Dosho

    Dosho,

    I couldn't have said it better.

    Gassho,

    Adam

  32. #32
    Stephanie
    Guest

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Dosho, I genuinely appreciate your response. I know we have butted heads many times because of our different personalities, so I appreciate your ongoing openness and willingness to listen.

    And that's just my point... I like people with rough edges but I have no issue with people who are gentle and quiet. I appreciate them also. My issue isn't that people shouldn't be gentle, but that people with different personalities should be allowed to interact with and learn from one another, even if it means there's a bit of head-butting sometimes.

    I never "cut and ran"--I was banned. My account was deactivated by Jundo until I got a "doctor's note." I didn't feel it was Jundo's place to mandate me to mental health treatment, especially since I then, and still to this day, consider the issues I was having to be spiritual, not neurochemical. I felt, and still feel, I was kicked out because I made people too uncomfortable. I was too dark and intense and messed up, which didn't fit well with "Blanky Boo-Boo Zen."

    Jundo and I made our peace about it. We both acknowledged mistakes in how we handled the situation, and moved on. But now... Chet has been told that he should no longer offer any critical feedback to others because Jundo finds his manner problematic. Jundo believes that Chet's personality indicates Chet is lacking in wisdom. He's told Chet that Chet's options are to stay, but shut up and don't post about Zen any more, or leave.

    I disagree. This practice isn't about getting a nicer personality. It's about clarifying the matter of life and death so as to no longer wander in doubt, chasing after happiness through worldly means. And I think history has well attested that plenty of wise teachers have had less than gentle personalities.

    Chet has been the person who has helped me the most in my own spiritual life, precisely because of who he is and how he communicates. I don't care what Jundo's assessment of Chet's wisdom or realization is, because I know from direct experience of Chet's clear vision. But I do care when Jundo does a 180--Chet has had the same manner as long as he's been here, and Jundo used to like and approve of it but suddenly now has decided he doesn't like Chet talking about kensho or challenging others--and dismisses someone in a very hurtful manner who had come to feel at home at Treeleaf.

    I think Jundo is being a complete hypocrite--if his standard of "enlightenment" is gentle speech, patience, and compassion, the way Jundo treats others falls far short of the mark. I have no doubt Jundo's speech to Chet has been far more hurtful to Chet than Chet's words have been to anyone else here. It sucks to come somwhere looking for refuge and to be exiled from it for your imperfections. It makes you think that you'll never find home or be accepted anywhere.

    Trust me, for my faults and for Chet's faults... neither of us are the type to not want to stick around and deal with the messy stuff. But I can guarantee you that if "dealing with the messy stuff" means speaking openly and working through conflict and tense interactions, Jundo will shut one or both of us down before there's a chance for anything to be dealt with.

  33. #33

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie
    Because Jundo and Taigu are ready to kick Chet out... or silence him... for no clear reason I can muster. And doing it all behind closed doors, of course. Just FYI to anyone here who likes his contributions to the sangha.
    I don't know anything about this, but I do believe that it needs to remain between Chet, Jundo, and Taigu. I value Chet and his input, just like I do you, Stephanie, but there may be some other information that is missing here. I cannot speak on a subject when I am only getting one side of the story. It is none of my business, so I will leave it at that.

    Gassho,

    Adam

  34. #34

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    As one whose posts dont get many replies to on here I can safely post this knowing it'll probably just go right past.......

    I've no idea whats happening re Chet, Stephanie, Jundo and Taigu but if there is an unwelcoming attitude from some to some or there are snide remarks made by some to some then skilful means may have gone out of the window again.

    If we don't all take the attitude that everyone is doing their best, whether we agree or disagree with their methods, then we start off on the wrong foot immediately. That and metta practice. (I posted on another thread about communicating/negotiating from these positions in a different thread in different words too).

    Lets start again with those and then look at the problems..that would be my take on skilful means.

    Whether it means everyone stays or some go, like Dosho says well, he'll be there.......

    Best wishes to all

    Rich

  35. #35
    Stephanie
    Guest

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    The problem when you keep things behind closed doors is that misinformation gets spread, such as Dosho's belief that I "cut and ran" from Treeleaf instead of being forced out. People might think that Chet also just decided to leave Treeleaf without understanding that their teacher was instrumental in that departure.

    I think this is a community issue, personally, not a private one. I value Treeleaf because of the community here, the journeys we share with one another. I'm more interested in non-hierarchical sharing of wisdom and while I (used to) respect Jundo and Taigu, I'm not nearly as taken with spiritual authority figures as I used to be. I think I have things to learn from Jundo and Taigu, but I see them as human beings no less flawed than you, me, Chet, or anyone else. If I left Treeleaf, the sense of loss I would feel would be for the community as a whole, not for the teachers in particular. But unfortunately, the teachers can make the choice to violate the bonds of our community by silencing members whose voices are not always so pleasantly melodious. Which I think is unjust and so I speak up about it. Perhaps it makes me quixotic, I don't know.

  36. #36

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Its a difficult one Stephanie isn't it? I think teachers can get used to playing the authority role and then they can get into shutting stuff down when it makes them uncomfortable or threatens their power base. I'm not saying that has or hasn't happened here because I don't know. I think Zen has a wonderful way of dealing with that..the stink of Zen....the true enlightened person is the ordinary person with no show of Zen and just lives the teachings. Its a good antidote to all our human self-deception and the building up of new identities/selves, including teacher or unworthy student, instead of the constant letting go of it all and just human beings meeting heart to heart. I think also some schools also have a tendency to forget the Buddhist ideals or dismiss them as Theravadan etc etc as it is easier that way..the "everything as it is" can be misused if it becomes a philosophy/talking point and is used to justify things that lose the core.
    Whethe rthis truly relates to some of the things that go on here I can't say for sure, although a couple of times I think I have seen this to a minor degree.
    Either way its a good reminder to us all never to be a simpering acolyte to another human being...respect and thank them for the teachings they give but dont make the mistake of thinking they are better, worse or the same as you.
    Rich

  37. #37

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Well, as to what Jundo and Taigu are or are not doing, on that I will not speculate. What I will say is that when I was even newer to this sangha than I am now, at first, I also had a problem with the things Chet said and the manner in which he said them, and emailed Jundo about it. His response was that I should be cautious before I judge, and that Chet had written a post as to his particular mindset, and that I should read it before making any judgments.

    As to Stephanie’s comments, and by extent Chet’s, about the teaching that goes on here, both from the clergy and the laity, I would say, sometimes the lotus, sometimes the keisaku.

    In the end, any interaction that helps us to better understand the Dharma is appropriate means. Sometimes that’s just sitting zazen, and sometimes it’s getting whacked with a stick. That should be universal from the person sitting zazen, to the person holding the stick.

    There are times when the stick is the only way. Then there are the other times. The trick is to offer the right one at the right time.

  38. #38
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Hi Stephanie,

    I appreciate that you took my post as an honest attempt to discuss the matter and not something less genuine. For that I thank you. And I must apologize for my error in using the phrase "cut and run" which was not accurate. Clearly, that was not what happened.

    I too like people with rough edges since those types are often the only ones who would speak to me as a shy withdrawn kid. I often didn't know how to respond to such strong personalities and still don't in many instances. I would often intrepret their speech as indicating that I was in error or that there was something wrong with me. And I don't mean the bullies who actually said there was something wrong with me...I mean those whom I believe to be sincere like you and Chet. As an example, I don't really know how to respond to someone calling Treeleaf "Blanky Boo-Boo Zen".

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie
    Chet has been told that he should no longer offer any critical feedback to others because Jundo finds his manner problematic. Jundo believes that Chet's personality indicates Chet is lacking in wisdom. He's told Chet that Chet's options are to stay, but shut up and don't post about Zen any more, or leave.
    As Adam posted, we don't know what was said between them, but this would appear to me as a gross oversimplification of what Jundo must have written. But admittedly, I don't know that for sure.

    Chet has been the person who has helped me the most in my own spiritual life, precisely because of who he is and how he communicates. I don't care what Jundo's assessment of Chet's wisdom or realization is, because I know from direct experience of Chet's clear vision. But I do care when Jundo does a 180--Chet has had the same manner as long as he's been here, and Jundo used to like and approve of it but suddenly now has decided he doesn't like Chet talking about kensho or challenging others--and dismisses someone in a very hurtful manner who had come to feel at home at Treeleaf.
    In Chet's "Odd Thought" thread, he spoke very much as you just did, He didn't care what Jundo's view was...he was certain of his having experienced kensho and wouldn't even consider the alternative. Challenging Jundo's views is one thing...and a very good thing...but that is not what he was doing then or what you are doing now. You are dismissing his views. Could Chet be wrong? I would say, "Of course...anyone can be wrong." But you both seem so certain of yourselves...how can anyone carry on a conversation if one side is that convinced of its accuracy?

    I think Jundo is being a complete hypocrite--if his standard of "enlightenment" is gentle speech, patience, and compassion, the way Jundo treats others falls far short of the mark. I have no doubt Jundo's speech to Chet has been far more hurtful to Chet than Chet's words have been to anyone else here. It sucks to come somwhere looking for refuge and to be exiled from it for your imperfections. It makes you think that you'll never find home or be accepted anywhere.
    You have no doubt that Jundo's speech in this instance is more hurtful than Chet's has ever been? How can that possibly be true? Again, I haven't seen what Jundo said and it sounds like you have. But there's just no logical way of knowing that to be a fact since you don't know how Chet's abrasiveness (or yours) has affected people who don't post because of his harsh speech. To assume it hasn't hurt people is arrogant.

    Trust me, for my faults and for Chet's faults... neither of us are the type to not want to stick around and deal with the messy stuff. But I can guarantee you that if "dealing with the messy stuff" means speaking openly and working through conflict and tense interactions, Jundo will shut one or both of us down before there's a chance for anything to be dealt with.
    Then, Stephanie, let him shut you down...if that's how Jundo truly operates, then I'd like to see it. Speak your mind and if he doesn't let you then let everyone know. If that's what Jundo is truly like then things here aren't what they seem...but my suggestion is to let the other shoe drop and see what happens rather than assume what will happen. You are a trustworthy person so I'd never say I don't trust you, but I'd like to see it for myself and not take your word for it, ok?

    Let's explore the messiness together.

    Gassho,
    Dosho

  39. #39
    Treeleaf Unsui Kyrillos's Avatar
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    Montgomery Illinois USA
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    513

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    I don't understand...I know when I came here to Treeleaf I understood that there were two teachers of this sangha, Jundo and Taigu. They are both here to give the value of their experience of Zen to those of us who afford ourselves of their knowledge and experience. I can appreciate the sangha asking them questions and even challenging them; in fact I believe I have read in these fora where Jundo and Taigu are open to that. Neither of them in my experience here have shown themselves to be tin gods we must obey at any cost, and so I believe we ought to at least give them our respect. There are also some here who have thoroughly accepted Jundo and Taigu as their personal teacher, and perhaps in a more formal way accept their teaching in a teacher-disciple manner.

    Perhaps it is simply an American idiom to draw everyone to the same level in order to express equality; but I think that where there is a teacher and student situation some of the equality has to be put aside. I certainly did not know the subjects as well as my university professors, or I would have been teaching the class. The failure of a system with no leader or teache,r in this instance, is that no one learns, and all are at the tyranical mercy of those who speak loudest.

    Stephanie, I believe that it is less than compassionate of you to be banging the drum so loudly concerning what it seems only you know about Chet and his present situation with the teachers here. No one else seems to have knowledge of this situation and even Chet only alludes to it. It is unkind for you to continue discussing this and trying to allign the sangha to Chet's defense against their teachers. It is better that it is worked out between Chet and the teachers since none of the other's of us have been directly involved in what was said between them. Revealing private communications or the essence of them is truly a violation of trust, as far as I see it; and quite surprising to me coming from you who works in a field where trust is essential.

    I am truly pained by all this laundry washing, and not even sure if the sheets were in need of washing. You have to know that others feel this same way but are afraid to say it to you for fear of harangue. Well, I'm a big boy and far too old to be hurt by any response so I have decided to tell you, I'm tired of this conversation and it's time for everyone to let the teachers teach and to leave off disrespect of them and the decisions they may have to make to keep the sangha healthy.

    GAssho, Seishin Kyrill

  40. #40

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrillos
    I'm tired of this conversation and it's time for everyone to let the teachers teach and to leave off disrespect of them and the decisions they may have to make to keep the sangha healthy.
    I feel guilty and I don't know why. ops:
    I suddenly feel the need to appologize to
    Jundo and Taigu. Maybe I have been less
    than respectful lately in some of the things
    I've said. I am grateful for Treeleaf and know
    that nothing can make a "branch" dry up faster
    than bitterness between the members. Anyone
    I've offended, I'm sorry. I value Stephanie, Chett,
    Dosho, etc etc etc. They offer insights that I value.
    But Jundo is the boss. He signs the check. So, I'm
    gonna make the effort to be quiet, listen better,
    and sit more in the days ahead. I am so grateful
    that these teachings are available this way. I vow
    to get my focus back (off myself, my sniffling complaints,
    opinions) and back on the teacher and the teaching.
    I just might learn something new. :wink:

    gassho
    Greg

  41. #41
    Treeleaf Unsui rculver's Avatar
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    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Edited: I don't have enough information to express an opinion.

    Ron

  42. #42
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrillos
    I don't understand...I know when I came here to Treeleaf I understood that there were two teachers of this sangha, Jundo and Taigu. They are both here to give the value of their experience of Zen to those of us who afford ourselves of their knowledge and experience. I can appreciate the sangha asking them questions and even challenging them; in fact I believe I have read in these fora where Jundo and Taigu are open to that. Neither of them in my experience here have shown themselves to be tin gods we must obey at any cost, and so I believe we ought to at least give them our respect. There are also some here who have thoroughly accepted Jundo and Taigu as their personal teacher, and perhaps in a more formal way accept their teaching in a teacher-disciple manner.

    Perhaps it is simply an American idiom to draw everyone to the same level in order to express equality; but I think that where there is a teacher and student situation some of the equality has to be put aside. I certainly did not know the subjects as well as my university professors, or I would have been teaching the class. The failure of a system with no leader or teache,r in this instance, is that no one learns, and all are at the tyranical mercy of those who speak loudest.
    You come from a tradition that has been very badly harmed by abuses of power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrillos
    Stephanie, I believe that it is less than compassionate of you to be banging the drum so loudly concerning what it seems only you know about Chet and his present situation with the teachers here. No one else seems to have knowledge of this situation and even Chet only alludes to it. It is unkind for you to continue discussing this and trying to allign the sangha to Chet's defense against their teachers. It is better that it is worked out between Chet and the teachers since none of the other's of us have been directly involved in what was said between them. Revealing private communications or the essence of them is truly a violation of trust, as far as I see it; and quite surprising to me coming from you who works in a field where trust is essential.
    This is isn't true, actually. At least two or three other people here know about it. Also, no one posted what Jundo wrote or what I wrote; your trust issue is misguided. Would you tell an abused kid that since what was done was private, it should remain private? I figured maybe I should explain why my participation would be decreasing dramatically here, lest people get the idea like Dosho did about Stephanie - that she cut and ran. She didn't run, she was run off. Dosho either didn't know this or conveniently forgot it. Either way, the air was not clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrillos
    I am truly pained by all this laundry washing, and not even sure if the sheets were in need of washing. You have to know that others feel this same way but are afraid to say it to you for fear of harangue. Well, I'm a big boy and far too old to be hurt by any response so I have decided to tell you, I'm tired of this conversation and it's time for everyone to let the teachers teach and to leave off disrespect of them and the decisions they may have to make to keep the sangha healthy.

    GAssho, Seishin Kyrill
    Your manner of speaking reveals that you are hurt, Ky. 'Stop picking on my teacher/father/chosen authority'.

    Look, spiritual teachers are like therapists. Having a bad one is worse than not having one at all. As a priest, you should know this especially well. So, if one thinks something fishy has transpired, you should speak up about it.

    The truth of the matter is this: As recently as a month ago - hell, two weeks ago - I was a valued member of the sangha. I have not changed miraculously in the intervening two weeks, and yet, now I am no longer a valued member of the sangha at all. Whereas before my input was respected, now I am repudiated by a teacher with not very much changing in between.

    What does this concern?

    Kensho. The value of it, talking about it, and finally - and here's the kernel of it - questioning whether my teacher ever had it. That's what brought down the wrath, I believe. I've never been convinced that Jundo has seen it, and I finally just up and asked. I figured it might clarify why we were at such odds lately. If you never had the 'quick flash' - well, you'd automatically tend to devalue it, right? I mean, obviously if you are a representative of the tradition and never had kensho, then kensho must not be very important. It's as plain as day.

    Apparently, I'm in a tradition where approval is followed by repudiation. Dogen sangha first, now Treeleaf. There are many reasons why up until now I've stayed away from Sanghas in general and not gotten very close to a teacher, and this is primary among them. There's a history of this in American Zen.

    I knew from the moment I 'stepped' into this sangha that I would one day be run out. Maybe with a smile, but run out nonetheless. First, I know my own nature and problems - but also, I don't expect others to act much differently than I do - except maybe with variations of degree. You've all already seen that when I'm challenged, I become defensive and rather stubborn. Others are like this too.

    I have been repudiated thoroughly, but I cannot do the same in kind. Truth be told, in a rash and not-well-thought-out moment (or two, LOL), I had privately repudiated Jundo from my perspective as a student, but I later apologized because I saw that it was an error on my part to repudiate him. He and Taigu live the path better than I, likely. In any event, their ups and downs are recorded more privately than mine. Jundo has done much to help me correct errors in my thinking - and Taigu brings the teachings to life in a most splendid way, IMHO.

    I just felt like something important was missing from Jundo's approach - and that is this: I think it is vitally necessary that one see the truth for him or herself. It's all well and good to say that the practice is enlightenment and enlightenment is the practice. The thing is, without seeing this for ourselves, are we not fooling ourselves? We may not admit that we're fooling ourselves, but we are.

    I think this is vitally important.

    I'll post more later if I'm still able.

    Chet

  43. #43
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ghop
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrillos
    I'm tired of this conversation and it's time for everyone to let the teachers teach and to leave off disrespect of them and the decisions they may have to make to keep the sangha healthy.
    I feel guilty and I don't know why. ops:
    I suddenly feel the need to appologize to
    Jundo and Taigu. Maybe I have been less
    than respectful lately in some of the things
    I've said. I am grateful for Treeleaf and know
    that nothing can make a "branch" dry up faster
    than bitterness between the members. Anyone
    I've offended, I'm sorry. I value Stephanie, Chett,
    Dosho, etc etc etc. They offer insights that I value.
    But Jundo is the boss. He signs the check. So, I'm
    gonna make the effort to be quiet, listen better,
    and sit more in the days ahead. I am so grateful
    that these teachings are available this way. I vow
    to get my focus back (off myself, my sniffling complaints,
    opinions) and back on the teacher and the teaching.
    I just might learn something new. :wink:

    gassho
    Greg
    With this attitude, you will likely not learn very much, LOL! If you shrink from the difficult conversations in life, the most valuable lessons are not learned. IMHO.

    Chet

  44. #44

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Chet, I would never demean your kensho experience and if I had a vote you would be in but please consider the value of just eating pickles.

    http://www.serve.com/cmtan/buddhism/Sto ... umber.html

    /Rich

  45. #45
    Stephanie
    Guest

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Believe it or not, I don't thrive on, or even really like, drama.

    Nor do I like to get in others' business--I had doubts about doing so here.

    But what has transpired between Jundo and Chet has radically shaken my faith in the teachers here and my relationship with this sangha. It hurt Chet, and it hurt me. I could have been "polite" and not said anything about it and just left, but I think truth is more important than being polite. I felt that it was important that the sangha be aware of what the teachers here do behind closed doors, and wasn't sure whether Chet would say anything about it himself.

    And let me clarify--I'm not saying Treeleaf is "Blanky Boo-Boo Zen." I'm saying that if Jundo and Taigu keep on running out anyone who's not as warm, cuddly, and reassuring as my blanky, Boo-Boo, well, that's what is going to be left. I have no doubt that people here are sincerely exploring the matter of life and death and practicing their lives. It inspires me every day I come on here. You'd probably be surprised at some of what I find inspiring! I respect everyone here--including Jundo and Taigu. But I don't respect formalities for the sake of formalities, when those formalities are at the expense of human beings. And I do think that favoring quiet and gentle all the time can lull people into complacency. And let people who are sincerely practicing their lives become comfortable and placid and stop looking at the stuff that's uncomfortable to look at, but required to look at to be in touch with truth.

    I am obviously very loyal to Chet but I'd be the first to say he's got flaws. But then, so do I. So does Jundo, and Taigu. This place means a lot to me, and I know it means a lot to Chet, and I don't think someone's flaws should lead to them being silenced.

    I suppose we all have our own ideals. Some people here would rather not ever experience conflict. And I try to honor that as best I can, but I'm not going to be silent for the sake of harmony when I feel injustice has been done.

    ETA: And I should add that the main reason I decided to bring this to the board instead of a PM to Jundo or Taigu is that I don't think they should have the final and only say as to who belongs in or is valuable to this community. I think the community should speak for itself.

  46. #46

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Stephanie,

    I can respect that thought, that the sangha should be in charge of deciding who stays and who goes. I have only this to offer. I believe, truly, that Jundo and Taigu have much greater clarity of Zen and the Dharma than I do. If it were otherwise, I would be the roshi and they would be writing these posts about me :wink: , but I have to trust them with a great deal of the understanding I have or will have of this path. That's what it is to be a student. Like I said above, yes, I fully and whole heartedly agree that Chet is wise, and for me at least (and it would seem you too) his posts have been invaluable. Sometimes we need that sort of clarity, that sort of immediate thunderclap that Chet can be. Sometimes. I believe that it boils down to this: When the only way to help someone grow in their understanding of this path is to whack them over the head, then start whacking. But when that sort of thing isn't necessary, don't. And like you and Chet, I'm medicated for problems too, I just try not to let that be an issue if I can. There were times when Chet said some things that hurt my little feel-goods, but I had to be open to getting the teaching in the form of an angry Chet. I think that it is also valuable to be open to the teaching from an angry Jundo or Taigu. Sometimes the stick is necessary, but always remember that you don't always have the stick, and if you do, the guy behind you might have one also, so just try to use them when appropriate.

  47. #47

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Good morning. All this going on while I was asleep.

    Imagine a school of karate in which the teachers have a certain style. It is the teachers' role to pass on that style to the students who come. It is not a democracy. If students do not like the particular style being taught in that school, they are free to head to the school down the street.

    Now, our school is a bit different, in that the teachers keep a light hand, letting the students wrestle with themselves and each other in order to learn the style, just trying to offer guidance from time to time from the sidelines. The students have to figure it out for themselves, and it is the teachers' role to coach gently from the side of the mat. The students sometimes figure it out for themselves, sometimes by wrestling with other students, sometimes by wrestling with the teachers. HOWEVER, all throughout, there is a particular art which is to be passed on, with its particular forms and ways, and those forms determine what is being taught in the school.

    In the school, there is the rule that students should be kind to each other. That does not mean that they need pull any punches, but they have to be polite to others.

    In the school, anything can be discussed and there are no hold barred on ideas.

    HOWEVER, what should the teacher do in the Karate school when a student says that (1) he does not have faith in the methods being taught by the two teachers because (2) he has insights into the "True Way" of Karate that the teachers lack, and (3) he will proceed to introduce those True Ways to students, particularly new students, to the Karate School, as well as tell them that the teachers do not know what they are doing, all in a rather aggressive way sometimes.

    That is a bit of a different, and difficult, situation. What does the teacher in the school do in that situation?

    Some might think I should tell the "True Way" fellow to leave, find a new school or start his own. I did not do so. What I told him is the following, after a series of about a dozen email exchanges.

    Hi Chet,

    Whatever, and we walk our own path. Good luck with yours. Sorry that what we are preaching doesn't ring your bell. You know better perhaps.

    Frankly, I do not think you would know "Kensho" if it bit you on the ass.

    You are very welcome in our Sangha. However, I would just appreciate if you would not seek to assist or comment negatively or critically on other folk's way of practice here, especially newer folks, as you will just confuse them and, I feel, misquide them. Taigu and I do not feel that your way of practice is good for most folks.

    Gassho, Jundo
    I believe there is a difference between discussing different approaches on the one hand, and on the other, professing a loss in faith in the teachers and their ways while proceeding to teach in that place your own True Way to new students, and in a rather aggressive tone.

    I also told him several times to respect the fine line between speaking to people honestly and "jumping" on them. I do believe that there is a difference and that one can be honest without being aggressive in speech.

    Westerners, particularly Americans, want everything to be equal and democratic in the school, with the students all learning what they want and the teachers teaching only what the students are interested in. But this is a school, and we have a particular approach to pass on.

    In the history of this Sangha, over three years, 2 people were asked to leave. One gentleman, about 2 years ago, was unregistered by me for being very aggressive with other members, extremely argumentative and insulting to other students and the teachers. One (since she raised it) was asked to get a doctors note because I had serious concerns at the time ... since proven very wrong ... that we were dealing with a possibly dangerous situation (the same as asking someone to get a doctors note when they are overweight and about to take a swimming class). The person refused at the time. When later it appeared that that had settled down, and that there was no danger, the person was welcomed back and I apologized if I had misinterpreted the situation. It was a mutual misunderstanding. There may have been a third person who was asked to leave (I cannot recall the details) because he insisted, despite my asking him not to do so, to teach here all kinds of things about Chakras and energies and ESP that do not fit in with our methods here (again, not "discuss", but tell the teachers that he was right, they were wrong, and proceed to foist it on students).

    I do not know how to describe the situation any clearer than that.

    Now, shall we get back to practice?

    Gassho, Jundo

  48. #48
    Senior Member pinoybuddhist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    Davao City, Philippines
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    383

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Yes, let's practice - and I'm not saying that in a kiss-the-teacher's-ass way and neither am I saying it in a dismissive, "I'm-above-all-this-drama" way.

  49. #49

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Hi everybody,

    The bottom line?
    This sangha is under the responsability of two guys that have, wether you like it or not,the right to approve or disapprove of what people say and they also have the task to do as best as they can to help whoever needs help. Sometimes you allow the child to cry and make a mess. Sometimes you ask him to shut up for a while ( as a school teacher I can see how modern parents are failing in that respect and what kind of kids we have to put up with). It is not because you want to use and abuse power, but to help a being that shows clear signs of distress and unbalance.

    What do I see here? people shifting from one day: I like this place, to the next: I don't like it. People that value the work of Byron Katie and fail to put it into practice, people that give their opinion about kesa without sewing, and bring along their would be kensho to justify the fact that they are right. People with attitude when the path is requiring a form of respect. I don't need people's worship, I don't need their rudeness. Brother Kyrillos is making an excellent point.

    I like Chet very much, I value Stephanie and Chet's contributions a lot, I even look at Chet as my teacher when he comes with great insights and puts them down to words, I also disagree sometimes with an offensive, bashing style that is not necessary. It is our job to draw a line. I know , these days people don't like lines and bounds and limits. Well, sorry guys, this is it, this is also it in Zen. This is a community and there are rules, without rules and bounds, this cannot work.

    If you want to have an idea of what a trashed place is like, just have a good look at other Zen sites where insults, rude and offensive language is everywhere. I don't want Treeleaf to look like that kind of place. Manners matter, Stephanie, and this is a lesson that needs to be learned! you write:
    But I don't respect formalities for the sake of formalities, when those formalities are at the expense of human beings
    , what did we do? Undermined the well being and self confidence of people? Had an abusive way of dealing with their requests? Give me and yourself a break...And clearly see how Jundo has been patient with repetitive offensive posting. Find another crusade. And trash me if you wish. Put me in the little box with a nice little label.
    Until you do the WORK.

    And yes, we are responsible for what is taught here. If kensho is taught or advised to students, this is not our lineage. Kensho Zen is found in Hosshinji lineage, Harada roshi's lineage. What we practice here is nothing but shikantaza. The teaching revived by Sawaki Kodo and transmitted to all his students. We respect other schools and styles but accept only one style here. To follow Jundo's metaphor, you don't mix shotokan with gojuryu or wadoryu.

    What we witness here is nothing extaordinary, it happens in every Sangha. And this is also why there are teachers around.

    Gassho


    Taigu

  50. #50
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ...

    Look guys, this place isn't a democracy. I think Jundo and Taigu have been pretty good to me. But, does one go from being a valuable member of a sangha to completely useless and repudiated in the course of a month? Either Jundo was wrong to be so permissive to begin with, I've suddenly revealed a stunning lack of wisdom not visible before, or he's being reactive in his dealings now. All of this would be quite human, really.

    I only have one issue here, and that regards the importance of awakening however it comes to you. I am internally as chaotic as I appear here. Does this mean I'm not living the teaching? Maybe, but I'm living it more now than ever before and I owe a lot of that to this sangha and Jundo. Still though, even though I've got a long way to go, I think this point about waking up is valid.

    Chet

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