[quote="disastermouse"]
With this attitude, you will likely not learn very much, LOL! If you shrink from the difficult conversations in life, the most valuable lessons are not learned. IMHO.
Chett,
I don't shrink from difficult conversations. Don't mistake
humility for weakness. You don't grow by having to be
right all the time. I think I have already learned a great
deal because I know when to admit that I am wrong.
gassho
Greg
Now jundo - you're being a bit dishonest here. *I'm not saying I know the one true way, in fact - what you posted in quotes was a response to me saying exactly the opposite of that and apologizing for repudiating you as a teacher, as I felt that not only did I not really feel that way (you've been very helpful), and I also have to acknowledge that you've shown me things I had not seen about my practice. *Yes, I did say that I thought you were perhaps not capable as a teacher - but I also apologized for saying it. *It was said in anger and does not reflect how I feel in my most honest appraisal of the situation.
I disagree with you on an important point. *I don't think I'm better or more advanced - I simply disagree. *There may not be room here for this particular disagreement, and I'm sure you feel as though my disagreement constitutes wrong view. *You're sure I'm wrong, and I'm as certain that I'm right. *To then use my general state of chaos as 'proof' that I'm wrong is...suspiciously counterintuitive. *If you think that a general problem with functional life is proof of fraud - then you've just disqualified a large number of prominent Zen teachers.
My main point is that in the 'Trees are trees/trees are no longer trees/trees are trees' example, the 'trees are not trees' part is pretty damned important to Zen practice. *It's also pretty hard to really see it (well, it's only hard because it's so easy) - at least I've found it hard to express properly. *Still, it needs to be expressed. *And for each zen student, I think it's profoundly important to see it for him or herself. *If you take it on faith, an important part of yourself will be very insecure because it isn't plain for you. *Anyone can see that trees are trees. *Not everyone can plainly see that there are not actually trees there. *You may think you can understand it intellectually, but that's not the same as seeing it.
In my admittedly limited time here, I think you've given 'trees are not trees' short shrift - not intellectually, but in actual practice. *How is it that trees are not trees? *My teacher says trees are not really trees. *Do I see that for myself?
I think it's important that we not fool ourselves into thinking we've seen this when, in fact, we've only taken it on faith or we've trusted an intellectual understanding as sufficient.
My passion for this has maybe interfered with your method for allowing people to see this. *Maybe that's been disruptive, but my goal is not to disrupt. *My goal is most profoundly NOT to disrupt, but to put forth the 'trees are not trees' perspective in a way that it can't just be shoved away or dealt with intellectually. *I think that it's the harder thing to see. *I think it's the part that people struggle with in Zen, ESPECIALLY beginners. *Without seeing this directly, where is the 'Zen' in Zen? *It's this that I think is neglected here (although I have to admit that Taigu sometimes expresses it perfectly).
It's only in addressing this point that I am at odds with you and Taigu. *I think that if people aren't nudged into questioning whether they see it for themselves, they'll try to fool themselves. *I know this because I, like everyone else, have this very same tendency to try to fool myself. *It's easily done and I'm sure that I'll be caught, either by myself or by others, doing it again and again. *Heck, being borderline, I'm probably worse than anyone here at times. *In fact, I KNOW that this is the case.
This is what is at the heart of this drama for me - aspersions on character and other things aside.
Chet
First off, my name only has one 't'. It's a common mistake, LOL! Secondly, I was just offering a viewpoint. Obviously, all these things are ultimately yours to decide. If I got you wrong, I got you wrong. Sorry about that. I just think Kyr's post was too far in one direction and that's what you seemed to be responding to.Originally Posted by ghop
Chet
Hi.
Hi everybody, this is the courtjester speaking.
This goes to show what happens when you leave on a "vacation" with filur for a week...
Wake up guys (and gal)!
I'm not kidding, these things are NOT supposed to be in the public.
It's fine to have a discussion of how somebody did or did not do in a private place, but not here.
That is not correct speech!
Had i been an moderator on this forum, i would have shut you out, all of you.
Get back in line, sit down and shut up.
And a deep bow to chet, who in the last post seem to get at least some of the true spirit back.
And Dosho, a deep felt "sorry" for what you got.
Now, i like all of you, and have spoken in person to all of you, and you all know me, so quit it!
If you mess with this forum, you mess with me, this sangha and the whole universe.
And just so you know, you don't want that! :twisted:
Now, shake your virtual hands and take it elsewhere.
And if you have anything to say, you know where i am.
And for everybody else reading this, these are nice people.
Don't think otherwise, we all stumble sometimes.
The main practice is getting up more times than we stumble.
Thanks for the lesson.
Mtfbwy
Fugen
A few problems with Taigu's post. First, why say 'some people' when it's obvious who you're referring to? Secondly, yes there need to be certain rules. Third, I was pretty sure this was the same school as Dogen Sangha - the current head of which tackled kensho fairly straightforwardly in the written record. If I'm mistaken, my apologies.
Lastly, in modern, general, and PRACTICAL streetfighting and MMA, you DO mix many styles and you throw away anything that doesn't work. So the metaphor doesn't work very well, in life and likely in Zen. Notions of purity won't work well in either case.
Pushing for kensho is counterproductive. Not to address it at all is thick-headed at best in light of the fact that we deal with a great many texts and koan collections that deal with this very thing! You'd have to excise huge parts of Zen and Mahayana Buddhism. That's actually a good exercise! Let's remove all mention of or stories related to such experiences. How much Zen is left? Hell, how much BUDDHISM is left? We can't talk about Sidd's experience under the Boddhi tree under those circumstances. Nor can we discuss any of the awakening stories. I suspect you're being disingenuous, Taigu.
Chet
I thought it was all good practice. Also, last time this all happened backstage, Stephanie got banned, Jundo wasn't entirely clear about it and consequently, Dosho (and who else?) thought she just split.
Are we not supposed to talk about fight club? :wink:
Chet
Hi.
Yes we are able to speak about fight club, but some things should not be shown in public.,
Speaking should be done in keeping correct speech, which might, if nothing else, have been bent in some of the replies above.
The clarity of things could sometimes be worked upon, i agree.
As i said, we alls tumble some times.
The practice is getting up more than we stumble.
And yes, it's all good practice, but you all knew that one by now... :roll:
Mtfbwy
Fugen
The only one who posted actual private correspondence was Jundo. Are you reprimanding him?
Chet
Hi.
Not reprimanding anyone, yet...
Just saying, wake up and smell the coffe burning.
I think it would be good if everybody took a step back, sat down and shut up.
And yes, i believe i will get my share of headslapping, as you all will get, in due time.
Anything else?
No?
Then return to the OT, and if you feel the need, create another thread.
Thank you for your practice and the lesson.
Mtfbwy
Fugen
Actually, I'm pretty interested to get the response to my posts if you don't mind.
Chet
. . .
Chet, you are probably not that interested in my response to your posts but I couldn't resist the opportunity.
Well yea, when you tell them their teaching is incomplete and they wouldn't know kensho from a hole in the wall.
I'm sorry this is just not that important to me. What is there right now? To imply that your point of view is so special that others need to see it or understand it means you are probably holding something that is already gone.
Waking up is something you do moment to moment and you don't need kensho, views of trees or even Buddhist philosophy.
It is time to sit.
/Rich
I regret it and apologize for the harsh, dismissive language I used in some of my posts.
I was angry, and not being skillful--at all.
But if me flushing this out in the open prevented Chet from being quietly dismissed and dropped from the sangha, though I regret the unnecessary meanness of language, I don't regret opening this can of worms.
Fugen, I understand what you mean when you say, "Don't mess with Treeleaf." I feel the same way... Treeleaf is important to me. And a Treeleaf without Chet is a Treeleaf I would have to leave too. When I thought yesterday that Chet was on his way out, an important part of my life felt like it was being taken away. I didn't want to let that happen without a fight.
I respect that some conversations should be kept private. I don't believe that a private conversation resulting in the stripping of status and removal of someone from the community should be one of them. Maybe I'm wrong, but trust me, I have no desire or intention to air people's private conversations publicly every time a private interaction occurs.
I think Chet would benefit from developing better listening skills, sure. But I know he also has valuable things to say. As to the matter of kensho--I appreciate that Treeleaf is a sangha that de-emphasizes kensho. That does not push students to have kensho. But does that mean we don't speak of kensho at all? Is that a "Soto thing"? Or a Nishijima lineage thing? Kensho is mentioned endlessly in Zen literature, whether Rinzai or Soto. Dogen had a kensho. The Transmission of the Light is a story of kensho. The story of the lineage is presented as a story of the moments when teachers in the lineage had kensho. So if our lineage has nothing to do with kensho, why are we reading it? Why are we studying it?
I've not had kensho. I've had times where I've pushed for it, all to no avail. I'm no longer doing that and appreciate how Jundo has expressed it, that Zen is a slow opening. I know from experience that there are delusions that used to drag me around that don't even grab my attention any more. So I don't think kensho is the only matter of importance. But I do think it is an important part of Zen and an important part of the history of our lineage. I don't think that people should be dismissed for not having had kensho, but I do think the topic should be discussed.
Anyway--I want to say I'm sorry to anyone who I may have offended. I'm sorry for impulsive wrong speech that only got in the way of expressing what I felt was important. I have no intention to continue pushing this issue and am content to lay low a little while. I know I need guidance in my practice and I hope I--and Chet--can continue to find it here.
Actually, I didn't say that. I asked if Jundo had Kensho. He's the one who told me I wouldn't know kensho from a hole in the wall. (Actually, he said I wouldn't know kensho if it bit me in the ass, LOL!)Chet, you are probably not that interested in my response to your posts but I couldn't resist the opportunity.
Well yea, when you tell them their teaching is incomplete and they wouldn't know kensho from a hole in the wall.
Well, I would be if I was insisting that what I've seen is what needs to be seen.I'm sorry this is just not that important to me. What is there right now? To imply that your point of view is so special that others need to see it or understand it means you are probably holding something that is already gone.
You say that like you've done it. Have you? Are you right now? Kensho isn't a something. Kensho's not even THAT important. That's not what I'm talking about. My point in asking Jundo about Kensho was to differentiate viewpoints - and although I went over the top and repudiated him, I've already admitted that was mistaken. As a matter of fact, although my repudiation was private, I've already apologized twice publicly because I think it's that important.Waking up is something you do moment to moment and you don't need kensho, views of trees or even Buddhist philosophy.
It is time to sit.
/Rich
You don't need anything to wake up, but without direction, how will you know how to ask? Like Foyan says, "If you do not ask, you cannot know, but if you ask, in effect you've slighted yourself. But you still need to know how to ask."
Are we being taught how to ask here? Yes and no. I'm delighted that shikantaza isn't something reserved for 'elder students' here - that it's the only non-method taught. That's awesome. Truly awesome. I wouldn't want the practice to be focused on moments of insight or awakening. That would be foolish. It would miss almost all of life which isn't (and yet is) awakening. But what good is this fully awakened moment if one is never fully aware of it?
My point is never and has never been to push the practice in that direction. My point is that when you read or hear some of the more seemingly puzzling Zen stories and scriptures, do you fully realize what they are saying? If you don't, do you not think that maybe at some point you should?
Chet
Why is that? Who owns your practice? Are you a disciple of Chet?
/Rich
Hi.
I partly agree on this.
The discussion should kept private, the outcome should be public.
No other way.
It leviates the forum/threads and it shows that something happened and has been dealt with, all of this while not disturbing the frum itself.
Now, shall we sit with that?
Mtfbwy
Fugen
I think we've all done it and are trying to do it the best we can. I've never read Foyan and out of context I'm not sure what he is talking about.
/Rich
LOL... No, I am not a "disciple of Chet." But he has been my most significant friend and guide on the path for some time now. He was the only one willing to deal with me when I was in that terrible spiritual darkness in 2008. And his wisdom, clarity, and persistence helped guide me out of it. He showed me how and where to look, how to question my thoughts, in a way I had never experienced before. And he continues to say things to me that immediately help me drop delusions. Jundo and Taigu have helped guide me to greater clarity with their teachings, but neither one as much as Chet. This doesn't mean I place Chet in some special status above me; frankly, I think I have wisdom Chet could benefit from at times, but he is too hard-headed to listen :lol:Why is that? Who owns your practice? Are you a disciple of Chet?
/Rich
This is the first Zen community where Chet felt comfortable, at home, and respected. The injury done by devaluing his contribution to the sangha and ousting him would be significant. I could not remain somewhere that had done something like that to a friend of mine.
Well, it wouldn't be THAT significant. It's not like I didn't have a practice before Treeleaf and wouldn't have one afterward. It would be sad - like a breakup - but that stuff happens in life. It's not the end of the world, just the end of this one. Who knows what it'd be the beginning of?LOL... No, I am not a "disciple of Chet." But he has been my most significant friend and guide on the path for some time now. He was the only one willing to deal with me when I was in that terrible spiritual darkness in 2008. And his wisdom, clarity, and persistence helped guide me out of it. He showed me how and where to look, how to question my thoughts, in a way I had never experienced before. And he continues to say things to me that immediately help me drop delusions. Jundo and Taigu have helped guide me to greater clarity with their teachings, but neither one as much as Chet. This doesn't mean I place Chet in some special status above me; frankly, I think I have wisdom Chet could benefit from at times, but he is too hard-headed to listen :lol:Why is that? Who owns your practice? Are you a disciple of Chet?
/Rich
This is the first Zen community where Chet felt comfortable, at home, and respected. The injury done by devaluing his contribution to the sangha and ousting him would be significant. I could not remain somewhere that had done something like that to a friend of mine.
I get kicked out of places a lot. It comes with the territory.
Look, a lot of friendship involves 'You swallow my B.S. and I'll swallow yours.' And the end of friendships is, 'I'm no longer willing to swallow your B.S. and you are no longer willing to swallow mine.' Maybe that's what's happening here.
And Steph, you SEE me resisting that sort of relationship nearly every day. And it has frustrated you too - so you can see how it would maybe mean getting kicked out of a lot of places, LOL. What would a relationship NOT based on 'You honor my lie and I'll honor yours' look like?
I don't know because I still get stuck in honoring my own lie a bit too much. But more and more, I'm unwilling to enter into that sort of a relationship with anyone. I'm trying to be less and less willing to enter it with myself - but boy do I fail at that much of the time!
Chet
Well, if it was based on equal non-honoring of lies, it would probably function pretty beautifully--with a few hiccups here and there, as doing a lot of things in life at all requires buying into one lie or another.
However, if it was based on "my lie must be honored at all times and no one else's can ever be honored at all," there would be a lot of yelling and it would eventually end in someone being kicked out :wink:
I step out for a while and this happens.
All the flagpoles go up.
I think it's time for the obligatory Capt. Kirk photo:
"Chhhheeeetttttttttttttt!"
:mrgreen:
:lol:
Ah well, you resist me and I resist you. Somewhere we usually drop the resistance, don't we?Well, if it was based on equal non-honoring of lies, it would probably function pretty beautifully--with a few hiccups here and there, as doing a lot of things in life at all requires buying into one lie or another.
However, if it was based on "my lie must be honored at all times and no one else's can ever be honored at all," there would be a lot of yelling and it would eventually end in someone being kicked out :wink:
Chet
I love you all...now where did I put my cushion?
Gassho,
Adam
Well, maybe that won't happen because everyone understands better the boundaries of a correct student-teacher relationship. And Chet did apologize for any offense.
/Rich
Yes, let us all move on, drop the resistance, embrace one another... and go sit
Sorry, I just returned home after being away all day ...
1- I disagree with Fugen about this not being in the open. It should be. What is there to hide?
2- Chet, I am very saddened by some of the claims and statements you and a couple of folks have made today. I tried to "ban" you from this place? I once "ran off" someone from the Sangha (by asking for a doctor's note when there were, at the time, concerns for their safety ... like the obese man in the swim club)? I told you "pretty irrefutably that you bring nothing of value" here etc. ? Fortunately, anyone who has been around this Sangha even a few weeks would know that it doesn't sound like me.
3- I do think that this practice is directly connected to how you act, speak and relate to people. You cannot separate them. You have, as you freely admit, issues in that regard.
4 - You can't please all the people all the time, and it is not Taigu and my job to try.
5- We discuss "Kensho" around here a lot (it is a subject in the book club just today), and we say a lot that ... in our neck of the practice woods ... it is important in some ways, not in others. We do not run toward that or away, and a "realization" that creeps into one's bones over the years, and really permeates one's life, is more vital. The latter, by the way, is directly manifested in how people act, apeak and relate to the world. If one is not acting, speaking and relating well in one's life "they do not know Kensho" in any important sense.
6 - That is the soup we cook up and serve in this kitchen. If you don't like it, don't eat it. I am happy to discuss with you or anyone IN CIVIL TONES, the PROs and CONs of different recipes for soup, and why we serve the soup we do here. However, I do not appreciate someone's standing in the dining room day in and day out complaining to the other diners about the chefs and the poor porridge. We still think it is good soup we serve, and many folks find it healthy and nourishing. If you still don't like it after our civil discussion, don't dine in this restaurant.
I also do not appreciate someone who gets into tiffs and spats with other diners, and puts his feet on the table. I am sorry if asking you not to do so is cramping your individuality.
7 - I am too tired to write this, and probably should have waited until I had some rest. Good night all.
Gassho, Jundo
I do not want to open any new worm cans as I am very content to say nothing more on this topic, but I would just like to point out that Jundo was very clear about the situation that resulted in Stephanie's departure some months ago. I simply misspoke in my initial post and apologized for doing so in a subsequent post. As a result, I'm asking that it please not be used as an example of what Jundo did not disclose. Again, I just misspoke...Jundo did not.
That is all.
G, D
Hi.
It might have sounded like i said that, but what i meant was it doesn't need to clutter down a lot of threads on the forum, as these things sometimes do...
But it is always best to keep it as public, and in the open as possible, for all parts.
Just remember to keep in mind the correct speechbit...
Mtfbwy
Fugen
Jundo, everyone knows or comes to know that you are passive in your aggression when it takes form. This is just how you are. Saying that I should not post about anything relevant to practice - "However, I would just appreciate if you would not seek to assist or comment negatively or critically on other folk's way of practice here,". Are we not here to assist one another? Hence, following this guidance, how am I to participate? It's not a ban, but it might as well be. Or have I misunderstood?
Don't we all?
In my opinion, BOTH are vital. Having had one and failing continually at the other, (But still making progress as once pointed out by you yourself) I nonetheless do not devalue either. Having one is not the same as having the other. Why is one valued more than the other? There are benefits to both. In any case, I do not feel as though I've 'arrived' in any meaningful sense of the term. You have done very much to facilitate my understanding of the value of the latter. Is it not possible that over or under valuing either is a dreadful mistake?
The soup is fine. However, striving to continually improve one's soup happens whether we intend it or not. Your soup has been changing slowly over time. It's not the same soup you've always served. In fact, some of your students have remarked that you seem to really be developing your writing style lately. Whether you intend it or not, sincerity has a tendency to change the recipe over time, typically for the better - occasionally for the worse. Ideally we should be continually tasting our own soup. Yes, I realize that I need to hear that message as much as anyone.
Do you think it's accurate to say that I've been complaining about things day in and day out? I don't mean to replace the head cooks. I have no pretentions that I could! If you think that you and Taigu fail to please everyone all the time, think how much worse it would be if I was running the kitchen! Do you really think that I don't see that? Any idiot (even this one) can see that. Nonetheless, this practice is not entirely about eating what's served, it's also about learning to cook our own soup.
Well, sometimes you appreciate it less than others. I have not fundamentally changed that much in the last 2 or 3 months. And yet, 2 months ago it bothered you less. Although spats with other diners were troublesome, it's the spat with the cooks that brought all this about. Let's not kid ourselves about that.
We all bring different ingredients to this kitchen and we have to cook with our own ingredients - we can't borrow all of them from others. If we do, how will we know how to cook with what we have? I don't have the same ingredients that you have, Jundo. If I throw out the ones that you dislike or are unfamiliar with, my soup will be very thin indeed! I can't fabricate ingredients you have that I don't.
Now that this metaphor has been stretched beyond all recognition, what the hell IS it with Buddhism and numbered lists?
Chet
Soups.
Kitchens.
Oh my.
You know I think Jundo and Taigu have done some excellent things here.
The sit-a-longs are great.
The net sangha, being able to sit with others from afar, is another fantastic thing.
I was always a little unsure of the forum though. I said something about talking too much on my first post and then proceeded to do that for a while. Leaving the forum and just concentrating on my own practice was very beneficial. I have only posted a few times recently in the hope of helping to bring peace or inspiration but find that these places drag you in.
Of course I'm not saying there isn't a place for a forum- when someone is sad and needs some kind words, when someone has a particular problem and perhaps wants a different point of view on how to proceed, when someone wants to say hi to everyone etc etc. These though are all practical things. Some of the scriptures talk about 'speaking little' but forums bring out the 'speaking much'. Its not a middle way thing in the sense of a huge amount of talking on one side and silence on another but the fact that most of us probably speak far too much and alot of that is useless.
I am finding more and more that speaking about the practical things in life- the nuts and bolts, plus kind words and supportive talk make a better and more pleasant day than endless discussions, disagreements on philosophies and debates on this and that.
Sometimes the poison of anger just wouldn't arise if we didn't speak unnecessarily..some of the simple stuff Thich Nhat Hahn talks of but I have ignored well in the past...
I really do think that the restrictions of the eightfold path are something many of us Westerners into Zen (at least) miss often even though they are perhaps easy and practical ways to avoid much suffering. We might think the idea of healthy anger is real or being able to freely express our opinion is good. I challenge those things. Sure if we are angry then be angry, don't deny. However, if we truly are that anger it'll fade quickly..it may well be our resistance that keeps it going...but if angry we can accept it and then go off and sit, or "take care of our anger-TNH", or watch it pass just like the clouds we often talk about.
Anyway perhaps these are some of the things that are unskilful within us all, but this moment is a fresh one and a new beginning.
Rich
Hello Chet,
I'm not meddling in your discussion with Jundo, but surely there are other ways to participate in the Sa?gha other than assisting in the forum? Participating in for example jukai, zazenkai, the rohatsu retreat, and book clubs (where no assisting per se is needed) are all wonderful practices and contributions, don't you think? Not sure if this is what you had in mind though, or if it is relevant for the discussion at all.
Gassho, Philip
Just home from my travels. Time for a nice cup of tea. Tea anyone?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnD8BYjZiW0[/video]]
Love you guys. :wink:
For anyone who is a Seinfeld fan, I do not think that I am describing the Soup Nazi, who throws someone out of the restaurant for any little infraction ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ3AOmZ2fps[/video]]
... in fact, that sounds more like the Buddha, with his 227 rules for monks, a good portion of which would get one booted from the community. I never read a Sutta where anyone came up and tried to correct the old dude's teachings then fought with the man and made a scene ... then stayed in the community. And I just happened to be reading a description of some of the earliest rules for how monks were expected to listen to talks in China, and it was about the same in Dogen's time ... even now ...
The community of the whole monastery should gather in the Dharma hall for the morning and evening discussions. On these occasions the Elder `enters the hall and ascends his seat.' The monastery officers as well as the ordinary monks stand in files and listen attentively to the discussion. For some of them to raise questions and for the master to answer, which invigorates and clarifies the essence of Zen teaching, is to show how to live in accord with the Dharma.
Now, this Zen Sangha is not a community of monks, and I am neither Gautama Buddha nor the 'Soup Nazi'. It is fine to discuss any topic in a civil way, ask any question and disagree. However, I expect patrons in our restaurant/school, to keep their feet off the tables/desks, to treat the other diners/students with respect and not yell in a loud voice again and again that the soup/teaching is bad and should be some other way (which it may be, but others seem to find it nourishing). I have overlooked or settled again and again disputes with other patrons, Chet, that have arisen over the last two years. I have been your defender when many others told me that I should do something long ago. (Frankly, you seem to me, somehow, to be wanting me to ban you from the forum ... maybe you like to be rejected deep down. You said above that it happens again and again in your work, relationships and other Sangha in which you belong, and that others tell you many of the same things about your behavior that people here have been telling you. Maybe it is time to reflect on that).
IF YOU CANNOT FIGURE OUT QUICKLY HOW TO DISCUSS TOPICS IN A CIVIL AND POLITE MANNER (NO TOPIC CLOSED TO DISCUSSION, BUT WE RAISE OUR HANDS AND EXPRESS OUR HONEST OPINIONS POLITELY, THEN LET THE CLASS MOVE ON) Taigu and I will ask you to leave the class. Now it has reached the point where, in fact, you will be "banned" from the class. Anyone else who wishes to join you voluntarily in leaving the class can of their own decision. I will be sorry about that, but I do not see how else to handle the situation.
Here, Taigu and I are not the "Soups Nazis" ... nor do we expect anyone to drink the cool-aide. However, this a a school ... karate school, cooking school, Zen school no matter. Please go outside and fight your fights, or cook your chowder, or cook your life, any way you wish to your own taste ... not here.
Gassho, Jundo
One more point on this ... we are Western people in a 21st Century setting, and we tend to ask a lot more questions, and expect discussion, more than old Japanese in the 13th century ... even most Japanese now! That is wonderful ... a big improvment, if you ask me, from people being too passive and swallowing whole whatever they are told. My Japanese dentist and other doctors here all say that their American and Western European patients tend to ask a lot more questions than their Japanese patients (and the Westerners are more likely to bring in some information or drug they saw on tv or the internet ... telling the doctor what he should do for them). Japanese tend to allow themselves to be told what to do by the doctors, and others, too passively.
But if the doctor says he will not do that, or recommend that they do something else ... nobody should repeatedly fight with the doctor in an aggressive way, tell him how to better perform your heart transplant (unless oneself a heart surgeon), or make a disturbance in the waiting room ... then expect to continue treatment with that doctor.
I mean, what you need to do is find a new doctor, there are dozens in the phone book (although I doubt any other one, if he/she is any good, will let you get away with that either).
Gassho, The Doctor
I think that the problem here seems to be how we think of this whole forum thing. Just because this thing is online and that makes it accessible to use, does not mean that we all get a say in how it's run. Then we'd all be sitting around wasting time.
"Whose going to lead the sangha today?"
"I don't know, lets take a vote"
"Who will run the vote? We'll need to have a meeting so we can discuss that"
"When shall we have the meeting?"
"I'm not sure. What we need to do is have a vote on when we'll have the meeting where we will vote on who will run the vote on who will lead the sangha."
I like Chet. I do. At first I didn't, but then it got to where I could see some of his concepts and the way he was bringing them across to me as a genuine desire to see me grow. If it meant he had to come across really strong, then so be it. But, in the end, this is how it is. We are a sangha. This sangha has teachers, and we are students. Haku'un Yasutani Roshi didn't like how the Soto school was going, or the Rinzai, so he went his own way. If we as students do not like the way we are being taught, then we respectfully thank our teachers for their time and effort and bow our way out the zendo door....er....forum...door. If we feel so strongly that our practice is beyond that of our former teachers, then teach it to those who are willing to listen, but have the respect not to do so in the same sitting hall where your former teachers are trying to teach. Sometimes, as I said, the stick is necessary. But when there is a difference between whacking a guy whose falling asleep on their cushion, and whacking someone because you just don't think that they are sitting just right. Bottom line: We need different types of interactions. Spirited ones, gentle ones, forceful ones, and easy ones. If you should find that you are battling others, being harsh when it is not needed, or just plain disrespectful, then you are wrong. You are wrong simply because you have abandoned appropriate means and are now allowing your self to be governed by your emotions and your feelings. And I understand about Chet having a condition, I have one too. One of my things is to become very irritable, very quickly, and to lash out at whoever is aggravating me at the time. But I am working on that, and I am being more mindful of when that begins to happen and I try to work through it. If everyone here is honest, there have been times where Chet has not done that. There have been times where his posts were just him becoming fed up and going farther than was needed. That is not acceptable, in the zendo, on a forum, in polite conversation with the people knocking on your door and trying to give you a flier you don't want. And then there are times where Chet's responses have been just what I needed to hear. What doesn't need to happen is for everyone to get their hackles up because regardless of what they write, the submit button still works.
If anyone has a problem with how Jundo and Taigu teach or this sangha in general, I suggest that you email them privately and work the issues out that way. Only if it requires the sangha to give their piece, or rather when the teachers of this sangha request our opinions publicly, then give them publicly.
Aside from that, we are here because we have that goaless goal to realize the Dharma. So I would like to suggest that we sit, listen to, and learn from those in this sangha who have realized the Dharma enough that someone who had received Dharma Transmission thought they had enough of a grasp on it to ordain them and give them transmission. After all, they must have gotten SOMETHING right. :lol:
You see, Chet, in my style you don't throw at a teacher "you are being disingeneous", rather, you listen to his words, sit with it, on it, chew the stuff and if necessary come back for further clarification.
And yes we don't do karate to do street fight but to avoid it. In real life , you don't hit or kill. You don't break but take care and protect. The metaphor works and shows how much you understand... And by the way, it has nothing to do with purity, you call coffee what is cofee. If it is something else, call it differently.
We don't dismiss the possibility of kensho as you call it, we just want to make clear that our practice is awakening itself. And that awakening should be our sole and only concern. A guy like Sawaki Kodo had no time for kensho and satori, pretty useless in his eyes. What he had plenty of time for was enlightened activity, daily life in which the light of shikantaza shines and manifests itself. Simple and daily things.
You give the clear message that you are interested in listening and chewing what we prescribe you. You are a brilliant guy, very inspiring and yet, what you advise others to do, questioning your thoughts, you don't do.
Please, question yourself: why do I get into this situation so often? Jundo and Taigu are willing to kick me out...Is that true? Am I really sure it is true? So... you seem to know the tune, now up to you to do the work.
gassho
Taigu
No more than your typical heart surgeon. Hopefully we did learn (and unlearn) something along the way, know our way around the operating room, save most of the patients and don't needlessly lose very many. Some are better than others, avoid the quacks.
Oh, and maybe "dietician" is a better metaphor than "doctor" ... cause you are expected to do most of the hard work yourself.
Taigu, if I recall correctly, I said I suspected you of being disingenuous. Also, if you were being disingenuous, that was an invitation for you to own it. I asked if you were disingenuous because what you seemed to be saying made no sense. Frankly, it still doesn't since your three character reply was '...'
I mentioned my previous problems to acknowledge that I'm aware of them. I'm doing my best. This sangha was important to me as I expressed many times. I would not purposely attempt to jeopardize being in it. You can say I'm being rude, inappropriate, etc - but at the time I'm doing it, I don't always realize it's inappropriate. If I did, I wouldn't do it. It's not like I think up ways to anger, hurt, and offend people. Surely, you must realize that. Whatever I'm doing is not just harming others but also myself. There's a lot this in everyone - I just got an extra large dose.
Also, I wonder why you're not addressing some things I'm bringing up. You deflect, skip it, and bring the conversation back to the dialogue you want to have - the story of the long-suffering Zen teacher just trying to help out an obviously defective and ungrateful student who won't know his place. I acknowledge there's some truth to that. But that's also not the whole of the truth. It's not the only story going on.
What are you expecting from this dialogue, Jundo? I haven't said anything in this discussion that justifies a ban. I suppose you could use the justification that it's in my own best interests. You've done that before with Steph. Of course, you've acknowledged that was a mistake too, so maybe going down that road again would be unwise. Me being who I am, I'm sure you'll find an opportunity soon enough, though, now that you're set on it.
If you want to address anything I've brought up, the opportunity is there. If you're trying to talk to others through the guise of a dialogue in order to justify yourself, the dialogue will remain fruitless.
I'll leave you with this thought: our friendship has only recently turned sour and yet it seems unrecoverable. How much more so must it be with your other dharma relationships gone sour? There are years of enmity between you and Brad. If you can't participate in a way that mends this, how could you have hope to mend THAT relationship? Obviously, your relationship with him was likely deeper, but so is the enmity and bad blood. I'm not the only one who's been repudiated and told his input in a sangha is not welcome. Perhaps that will give you pause before you act on the sourness of this situation.
Your friend,
Chet
Chet,
Please, do your work and come back when it is done . You are welcome as long as you do your homework: a lot of sitting, reflecting and questionning. You are in a position of a student here, you seem to forget it.
I am sorry to read the content of your last post. The story about Brad is none of your business. You overstep the mark, are out bounds, lacking manners and you make it very clear in my eyes.
Turn them around, these words are for you.Perhaps that will give you pause before you act on the sourness of this situation.
gassho
Taigu
As an aside, my Seinfeld reference was in jest
But with all this talk of soups..
Man, Chet, you make me rue making such effort to raise this issue and create an opening for reconciliation and moving forward. You had the opportunity to walk through the opening created by the dialogue here and make some peace, and instead decide to needle at Jundo in a very personal manner? WTF? I don't think this has to do with BPD, btw, I think it has to do with pride and ego.
If you can't submit to be taught, why put a facade on it? I have deep respect and love for you, but that doesn't extend to thinking there aren't things for you to learn as a Zen student. And you're not going to learn them if you're busy trying to get the last word...
*sigh*
hmmmm....
still cant decide between Clapton and Page!
but thank you Jundo it is nice to get a reminder once in a while.
Gassho, Daniel.
The story about Brad became our business, it has been discussed here openly and honestly. My words were not intended to sting.
The clarity of your eyes IS none of my business, though. I'm saddened that it had this effect on you and I hope it does not have the same effect on its intended recipient. I felt very good about that last comment - in my heart, it was said without malevolence of intent. I simply wanted to remind him that he's been on both sides of this sort of thing and perhaps that might engender the sort of unique perspective that may be helpful. It's a sad feeling to be repudiated and turned away by a former friend, even if done with a businesslike smile.
As stubborn as I am, could you imagine if I had the ability to say 'How dare you speak to your teacher that way?!' like you and Jundo can? No, I have to make due with what little insight and logic I can bring to bear. I do talk to my friends this way. As long as no malice is intended, hurt feelings are usually gotten over quickly - but then most of my friends have neither the pride of authority nor the audacity to argue that such authority demands respect in light of unaddressed questionable actions or motives. Jundo is my friend, I don't want to hurt him, though I wouldn't be surprised if he denied that I did. How can an insignificant student such as myself wound the pride of a Zen teacher? Preposterous!
If you demand respect, you'll get it by being honest (though I admit I may react badly at first). Simply having a position in an institution does not bring it. I've always been obstinate that way. Would that I were more Japanese, I'd likely fit better in a Japanese hierarchy. There is a person under that kesa, what is HE or SHE like? That's all that's important.
The fact of the matter remains that my behavior was never so dramatically troublesome until it wounded the top men.
Chet
Dear Chet,
I am so sorry, but we are going to stop now and I have had to shut the door to more. I have a very heavy feeling in my heart for doing so. Maybe we can try again after a few months have passed, assuming you would want to do so then. I am sorry that Taigu and I seem to have failed you.
In the meantime, I will always be available, and happy to dialogue with you, by e-mail. I am also always available to chat by Skype. I am sure that Taigu feels the same way.
Gassho, Jundo
As a social worker with a passion for bringing people who have been rejected and outcast back into community, and who sees the ejection of a community member as a failure of that community... I think Chet, in the end, did this to himself. At first, I found the entire situation unfair--for reasons I don't need to re-hash--and fought to create an opening for dialogue and reintegration to happen. I was very happy when that possibility seemed to be there. But Chet took that wonderful opening, and used it to escalate things further. It's not fair to be punched for accidentally stepping on a few toes, but to keep merrily stomping on those toes after repeat warnings... let's just say, don't run crying to mommy when you get some teeth knocked out. I can hardly hold on to a sense of outrage about this when Chet took an opportunity he had to reconcile, and instead kept on pushing to win points in an argument. Pride goeth before a fall.
I hope Chet, Jundo, and Taigu can work through this and work this out in private. I think Chet is an important Treeleaf member who has a lot to contribute... and a lot to learn. I hope Chet can come back on the forum--and that he will be willing to do what it requires. As I've said before, as much as he's pissed me off on a frequent basis, Chet has also helped me shed more delusion than anyone else ever has. Not because he is perfect... but because he truly does see a lot of things clearly, even though he also trips over his own shoelaces sometimes. I know this not because of some fanciful idea I have of him, but because his insights and his feedback have caused real changes in my life... changes for the better. I think he's always worth listening to... even if he needs to work on making himself listenable to people without a saint-like level of patience.
I feel bad for going on about this as Chet can no longer defend or speak for himself here. But this has all played out publicly and I want to note for the record that my defending Chet and wanting him to be here doesn't mean I accept or don't see when he's digging his own hole.
Me too.
What we need are two things:
1. Step away from the computer. Let it go. Take a break. Don't carry the anger around. Come back with a different mindset.
2. Have a spouse / family that tells you "Are you on the computer, AGAIN?! :evil: Have you mowed the lawn or gotten the groceries?! Look. Jundo or Chet aint gonna get our lawn mowed. Git!"
:wink: :mrgreen:
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