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Thread: Jundo's latest vid

  1. #1

    Jundo's latest vid

    Hi all,

    Just a kind of thing I am picking up...The latest vid from Jundo about the need to give is, in my eyes, spot on. He says "perhaps", Jundo is very kind and mild.
    Let me be a bit more straight forward and direct than usual: in this community, a lot of people love receiving support, advice, guidance, teachings, and it's all free! It is all free because we want it to be free and we get our income another way.

    Very few comments on this vid. In fact we like to take and not to give, don't we all?

    Well guys, blablabla and koans and this and that are about the wondrous and humble Boddhistava activity. I don't give a s... about your mastering of the subtle Buddhist philosophy, the fact that you can talk the talk... I really mind about how it translates in your life, your hands and the way you use what is in your pocket. We don't want it in our pockets, it is not for Jundo or Taigu: the world needs your action, your deeds.

    I wrote this on another thread:


    Hi all,

    Wading through threads are hard to follow. For practical purposes, maybe a new thread for rakusu n00bies where we can go and ask a question(s) or a simple pdf/txt file with a beginner's how-to for the rakusu.
    or

    ...maybe we can have a live web feed where folks can follow a rakusu sewing class...step by step?
    Thank you for your interesting suggestions. I kind of understand the difficulties of starting sewing: I was not born with a needle in my hands...
    It is part of the process to meet resistance, not the lack of help or inadequate wording or instructions of teachers, but our OWN resistance which is a byproduct of our beliefs. No live classes, or ready-made thread will do. Maybe, I should also buy a plane ticket and come to you to show you how to do it :wink: ???

    These days, people get it too easy. In a not so distant past, wading through mountains, walking weeks and months, begging food and bowing in the mud had to be done and experienced to sew a single kesa and study with a teacher.

    We are obviously too addicted to a mouse click.

    That's all I have to say. It is a very good test at the very gate of our true self.


    So...just get on with it
    Please, time to do some work in the community and help in many ways, including with your green energy ( money)

    gassho


    Taigu

  2. #2

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Gassho

    Shohei

  3. #3

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu
    Let me be a bit more straight forward and direct than usual:
    Much appreciated.

    Gassho,
    Dave

  4. #4

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Thank you for leading us the in the path of humility!

    Deep bows,
    Luis-Jinyu

  5. #5

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Hi.

    Please, time to do some work in the community and help in many ways, including with your green energy ( money)
    Yes, very true.
    Always time.
    Always here.

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen

  6. #6

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu
    I don't give a s... about your mastering of the subtle Buddhist philosophy, the fact that you can talk the talk... I really mind about how it translates in your life, your hands and the way you use what is in your pocket.
    Thanks for this "finger pointing" at my face! I needed the nudge.

    gassho

  7. #7

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    I for one appreciate your straight-forwardness! Thank you.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Silva's Avatar
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    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Merci Taigu,

    gassho,

    Sylvie

  9. #9

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Since my post in another thread was quoted on this OP and not mentioned by name, here is my response:

    Is not being addictive or not addictive.
    Or walking through mud or not through mud.
    I don't have any resistance to do it.
    I'll send y'all a napkin if I have to.
    But. You are not asking for a napkin and y'all have a set of videos on how to do a rakusu which means you want to do a rakusu.

    All I'm asking is for help and giving you a suggestion.

    You can say, Yes. You can say, No. You can say, Maybe.

    You see too much into my humble words.

    Maybe, I should also buy a plane ticket and come to you to show you how to do it ???
    Sure. Why not? We are numberless, right? :twisted:

  10. #10
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Thank you Sensei...I forget far too easily. ops:

    Gassho,
    Dosho

  11. #11

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu
    Well guys, blablabla and koans and this and that are about the wondrous and humble Boddhistava activity. I don't give a s... about your mastering of the subtle Buddhist philosophy, the fact that you can talk the talk... I really mind about how it translates in your life, your hands and the way you use what is in your pocket.
    Taigu,

    I am sure I am the only one who see it this way, but I think your words in your post are far from humble, and rather a bit unnecessary aggressive. I get the point you are making though, and I have no problem with that - it's a valid point.

    I am sorry if this is an overreaction. I am sorry if I have caused any offense. Feel free to disregard this post if you want.

    Respectfully,

    Philip

  12. #12

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Hi Philip, indeed. No offence taken. I have no problem seeing how agressive and arrogant I can sometimes be. Thank you for the reminder. And also, thank you for understanding how valid my point is.
    If you read my post again, the mild swearing I use (hi Stephanie :wink: :lol: ) shows how much I care about you guys as it is my responsability to make sure you are walking the walk and not just eating your way through articles, books and sewing ideas in mid air.

    Hi Chicanobudista, I should have mentioned your name. Sorry. In your answer,don't you see resistance? And by the way, who wants to sew a rakusu? Jukai means putting all your energy into this. You are the one willing to take the precepts, aren't you? Meeting one's resistance and facing one's own arrogance, habit and thinking patterns[/b] is part an parcel of the experience of sewing. I don't know about Jundo, but I don't want to make things too easy. You are not the only one facing this kind of issue. Almost everybody does. And sorry about this, I won't be your guy teaching you live on skype how to sew...And let me add this, these videos are well made after all , once you really put your energy into it, listen to what is said, ask a few tips along to one of us, do your homework and overcome your natural resistance to the process, you will end up with a rakusu on your lap like everybody else who went through this journey eventualy did.

    gassho


    Taigu

  13. #13

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu

    Hi Chicanobudista, I should have mentioned your name. Sorry. In your answer,don't you see resistance? And by the way, who wants to sew a rakusu? Jukai means putting all your energy into this. You are the one willing to take the precepts, aren't you? Meeting one's resistance and facing one's own arrogance, habit and thinking patterns[/b] is part an parcel of the experience of sewing. I don't know about Jundo, but I don't want to make things too easy. You are not the only one facing this kind of issue. Almost everybody does. And sorry about this, I won't be your guy teaching you live on skype how to sew...And let me add this, these videos are well made after all , once you really put your energy into it, listen to what is said, ask a few tips along to one of us, do your homework and overcome your natural resistance to the process, you will end up with a rakusu on your lap like everybody else who went through this journey eventualy did.

    Oh. Of course resistance is there as long as there something new or "hard" to do. I work with farmworker youth who have dropped out of high school. They come to our program for three months for training on General Educational Development diploma, GED. GED is a battery of five tests that if passed will give them an equivalent of a High School diploma. On the first day, most if not all come with resistance. "Why am I here?" "This is too hard!" "Math!? Agh!" They all come like this day after day. But. They also get resistance from teachers. "Oh. They want it easy." "Bah. They don't want to learn." "They are too lazy!". BUT. We come together. Day in. Day out. Day in. Day out. Sometimes it feels easy. Sometimes it feels hard. The students see the resistance, but they say "I am wiling to work even with fear." "Ok. Let's sit. Let me teach you." Resistance is there. But it's overcomed once we talk See where each stands and what we need to do to move from that position of resistance. After a three months, youth who had barely finised 8th or 9th grade, are able to pass test that are meant for 11th graders. This reminded me of the adult classes where I used to volunteer where I would see middle age men learn to write their first letters. Resistance to show that you don't know, but .....willing to put pencil to paper. A. E.O.I. U. Apple. Bee, Cow, ...

    So. Of course, I see my own resistance. But. Like my youth, I am here. With books tucked in my arms, here at the Treeleaf Zendo school desk. Videos are good, but a live person is better to ask. Maybe you are resistant to use skype and your time limited. This is fine. We all have limits like I do. So. Someone else can come to my desk and teach me. Here I am. Books. Pencil. A.B.C.D...Opera.Pear.Rakusu.

    PS....sewing circle anyone?

  14. #14

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    I completely agree with this post.

    I want to say personally to you both how much I appreciate your time not only in responding to posts regularly and answering them thoroughly but your sharing of the Dharma on the videos. I've never met you, yet you both answer my questions promptly and sincerely, and I cannot express how thankful I am for that.

    Second, in terms of the point made "in this community, a lot of people love receiving support, advice, guidance, teachings,"

    From my own perspective, I came out of the gate posting on this forum asking a lot of questions.... my questions are endless. I think that is part of the delusion.. my delusion personally at least. I need the answer, just this next answer or this next book to add to my intellectual collection because then I'll have all the answers, and will live happily ever after.

    It's the endless circle of Dukkha now with a "Buddhist" stamp to make it seem like less BS and more real/more spiritual, but it's a stealthy trick of my ego.

    In the end, all of the intellectualizations are meaningless without the actualization of the Dharma in my life.

  15. #15

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Hi Chicanobudista,

    I feel sad when people fail to listen...You are pointing at living mountains and they are stuck in the map. You tell them how great it is to walk in the wilderness, and they all they want is a schoolteacher and a dry bench. Even with a teacher by your side, you would struggle. You may go and find out there a teacher and a group of people sewing, you won't escape the very experience I am talking about. The power of conditionning lasts long. You fail to see that part of my teaching is precisely to let you be out, to taste what it is like to not know where to go and go anyway. In a way, you don't want to learn sewing as I teach it.

    I feel sad when people fail to listen.


    gassho


    Taigu

  16. #16
    Senior Member AlanLa's Avatar
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    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Tis better to give than receive, yes? And tis better to discover there is always more to give, yes? Thus to give more is the best, yes? But how to give more? That is the question, but the act is to Give More!, and finding a way to BE that Giving is the answering Way.

  17. #17

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Its scary giving up the conditioning we have spent our live up to now cultivating, and doing it almost inadvertently. May it be that we resist a challenge or difficulty or road block because its makes us vulnerable? It makes sense that it is good to give and give even more, but why is it so hard for some of us to give up the fear and trepidation that really ties us back? I know it has me tethered to the wall to a maddening extent some times. Effort is always followed by fulfillment. Nothing easy really seems worth it.


    Gassho,
    Dave

  18. #18

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu
    Hi Chicanobudista,

    I feel sad when people fail to listen...You are pointing at living mountains and they are stuck in the map. You tell them how great it is to walk in the wilderness, and they all they want is a schoolteacher and a dry bench. Even with a teacher by your side, you would struggle. You may go and find out there a teacher and a group of people sewing, you won't escape the very experience I am talking about. The power of conditionning lasts long. You fail to see that part of my teaching is precisely to let you be out, to taste what it is like to not know where to go and go anyway. In a way, you don't want to learn sewing as I teach it.

    I feel sad when people fail to listen.


    gassho


    Taigu
    And I think you dont hear me asking for help. But here I still am sitting outside the temple.

  19. #19
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Sometimes teachers don't want to teach, sometimes students don't want to learn. Odd, isn't it?

    Chet

  20. #20

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Sometimes teachers don't want to teach, sometimes students don't want to learn. Odd, isn't it?

    Chet
    :lol: :wink:

  21. #21
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by dumm
    Nothing easy really seems worth it.


    Gassho,
    Dave
    And it oddly goes the other way too. We shouldn't maybe fool ourselves into thinking that everything difficult is valuable.

    Maybe I'm just being contrary. In essence, I sympathize with Taigu even though I'm sure I have and will likely again argue against sound advice.

    Chet

  22. #22

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Chet--Thanks for the thought. It really made think...and laugh. :mrgreen:

    We make judgement on people here based on things we post. We think we know them with a couple of words. So. Rather than continue this back and forth, I am moving to other threads and the let the Jukai process take it's time....step by step. What might have been a misplaced statement for help and suggestions has turned into another new thread where I believe it's heading to a discussion with personalized undertones. There a personal things going on in my life that require my attention and I'll check at the Jukai thread as it moves.I have said what I have to say.

    I will only leave with a note resistance from my personal life. I was born and raised in Mexico. My parent brought me to the US w/o knowing much English. I only knew a couple of words. At my school district, we had no bilingual program in Junior HS. It was full immersion. The superintendent decided that I should fall back one year in elementary and survive there. The first months the classes seemed like a blur in which teachers spoke in what sounded like gibberish. It was sink or swim for me. I decided to swim as much as I could, but....thankfully I also had an English teacher that took it upon himself to teach me and another couple of non-English speaking students to learn the language. In the end, I knew it was up to me to learn and progress. Now. I am not sure if learned English well enough...but....yeah....we all been there where resistance was our first obstacle.

    Nuff said for tonite......gassho.......

  23. #23

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Very difficult.
    What to give and what to take.
    I was reading a thread on another site about 'idiot compassion'- giving to others based on our stuff, not on whats good for them.
    I guess first we need to be as equinamous as possible so we make sure we aren't running on our scripts, as much as that is possible anyway.
    But even then..how do we know whats good for them, or what they need?
    Also how much do we just give freely anyway..maybe everything.....
    I see Taigu's point..we have it easy these days in some ways and we value things less because we are inundated with easy ways to get things- provided we have the money usually. Working things out- 'not being spoon-fed' as our teachers at school used to say- and learning by trial and error are great. If we can't do this on simple things then do we have the discipline to really manifest this path in the world?
    I also see Chicanobudista as genuinely asking for help. I don't know him well enough to even begin to know what his situation is. The other day I was doing a Tai Chi class and the lady next to me kept saying she was stupid in an increasingly frustrated tone. We were doing a new portion of the form and it was very easy to me to get the footwork right, but for some reason she couldn't do it. If I judge everybody by how I find things I just get to be a pain in the arse. She wanted help- I helped. Simple..no debate or drama.
    So I don't know guys....I think I'll just help folks when I see a need which I think I can be of service to, without worrying about all these issues.
    Of course, when I am bogged down in my own stuff I might miss others needs, or ignore them.
    Its messy being human.
    Hope you guys resolve this in friendliness. One last thing that might be useful is to ask "what can I take from this that will progress my path regardless of the other person's motivations?" At least this way it becomes something potentially useful and takes the focus off the other person too-- could be an upaya I guess.
    All the best to everyone
    Rich

  24. #24
    disastermouse
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    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    The best advice I should take for myself is this:

    Consider criticism before rejecting it. Don't fear rejecting it if it cannot be reconciled with one's honest assessment, but at least give it an honest assessment. This is the advice I most need to take to myself.

    For others, perhaps they are more prone to believing the criticism of others and don't give their own inclinations the honest assessments they deserve. It seems to be different for everyone.

    There seems to be one path in Zen, but so many different directions about how to travel it. Realize that this has more to do with where we start than where we are going.

    IMHO.

    Chet

  25. #25
    Stephanie
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    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    I think this is an excellent post by Taigu, and excellent thread... You can't cook a good soup without stirring the pot every once in a while. People get complacent and lose the sense of urgency in life and practice that was there when their backs were more against the wall spiritually... I remember the talks that John Daido Loori would give when he thought his students were being complacent or lazy or lacking in gratitude. He was not "nice"! But those were some of his best talks... they caught everyone in the room, regarless of for whom they were intended.

    I've gotten complacent and numb in my own life and practice and I need really harsh words sometimes to slap me awake! Which is why Chet is such a great friend on the spiritual path :mrgreen: If someone could get me on the cushion and in full-blown appreciation of my life, alert, focused, disciplined, by beating me up, I would take the beating! Sometimes a sharp word, like a sharp slap, can get the blood flowing!

    Feel free to drag me through the coals any time... I need it... :shock: :? :mrgreen:

  26. #26

    Re: Jundo's latest vid



    LA-LA-LA-LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU.


    :mrgreen:

  27. #27

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie
    ... they caught everyone in the room, regarless of for whom they were intended.
    Yes!
    This post is for 1 person and its for every single one of us, no point in trying to figure who its for...Its for YOU!/ME/(all of us of course!)
    A good rule of thumb for any lesson being put out there...just figure its directed at you and take a step back and open your eyes and ears

    Gassho
    Shohei

  28. #28

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Occasionally I will find myself stuck between the lack of an urge to do something and the (no)soul wracking guilt that I have not yet done anything. Middle way. Most of the hands on places around here require a 12 month commitment, they want people they can consistently count on. I do my green power when I can, but I could definitely do more.

    Really trying to get the "Buddhist Club" at college amped up and ready for charitable work! We'll see how that goes (the former president is leaving for Oxford, so they have been placed in my incapable hands for leadership of some sort :mrgreen: ) Interfaith cooperation with bigger clubs and the like.

    But anyways I ramble, it is inspiring to have such a message brought up. And I, as much as anyone else if not more, need my ass dragged in the coals for a nice scorching from time to time.

    Gassho
    Taylor

  29. #29

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by chicanobudista

    And I think you dont hear me asking for help. But here I still am sitting outside the temple.
    At any Zen monastery in Asia, they will leave the person waiting to enter outside the door, ignored ... for hours, better for days, before his or her presence is even acknowledged.

    Before one can enter ... even if it is not literally 'out in the snow' (though sometimes so) ... one is left sitting Zazen morning to night for about a week in "Tangaryo" ... left in the same clothes, without a bath, their few belongings in a small bag leaning against the wall ...

    ..

    The sewing of a Rakusu is not like studying for a high school diploma., not even like struggling as a child to learn a new language. It is a process in which the must be some hardship and resistance precisely in order to learn the unlearnable lesson ...

    ... that there is nothing to attain, nothing to achieve, nothing to master, nothing to resist.

    Mistakes and dead ends are part of the road ... all to imbue one with the understanding that life has no "mistakes", no dead ends ... and that is so EVEN for the dead ends and mistakes.

    It is not a skill in sewing that you master, but a skill in finding the wholeness of life's tapestry.

    In fact, things may be too easy, too convenient. The hurdles may be too low. If anyone would be led more by the hand, shown how to avoid the mistakes and traps and blood from pricked fingers ... a disservice would be done.

    Life is often filled with things we want to "achieve" "get done" "accomplish" "get finished with", get a diploma or reward for. Not this. This is not that.

    It may be time to raise the bar a bit ... make folks work for it a bit more ... for there is nothing to achieve.

    Gassho, J

  30. #30
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie
    Sometimes a sharp word, like a sharp slap, can get the blood flowing!
    Agreed, but sometimes a kind word can help just as much, especially for those who have already been beaten up either physically or mentally.

  31. #31

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    [..]
    The sewing of a Rakusu is not like studying for a G.E.D., not even like struggling as a child to learn a new language. It is a process in which the must be some hardship and resistance precisely in order to learn the unlearnable lesson ...


    It is not a skill in sewing that you master, but a skill in finding the wholeness of life's tapestry.
    Actually, studying for the GED is in many ways like the sewing a rakusu. Sure you learn a skill. Sure learn how to take a test. But you also learn something about yourself. I invite folks here to come and sit with my students. Sit with them. Learn something about them...and yourself.

  32. #32

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by Dosho
    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie
    Sometimes a sharp word, like a sharp slap, can get the blood flowing!
    Agreed, but sometimes a kind word can help just as much, especially for those who have already been beaten up either physically or mentally.
    Sharp words
    Kind words.
    Bad Cop.
    Good Cop.
    :wink:

    I barely came from the hospital tonite after visiting my mom. She suffered a brain aneurysm. She can't talk well and needs helps moving. My Dad and I help in what we can. My father lifted her from her wheel chair and then set her on the bed. Then, my dad and I at the count of 1, 2, 3 lifted her to put her right so we can feed her. Slowly put a blanket on her and made sure her adult diaper were well put. We brought food and slowly spoon. eat. spoon. eat. spoon. eat. Clean her chin and mouth. We stayed. Talked. She fell asleep.

    I am back in this forum. Good to see the back and forth. But also see a lot of flagpoles with flags. Yet. At the hospital, when feeding my mother. Whether I fail to listen. Whether GED is not like rakusu sewing. This vanishes at that moment. There. Me. Mother. Eating. Appreciating the time. This is good for the rakusu in my heart. The mud wall falls under the rain. Mud turns into fertile ground.

  33. #33

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by chicanobudista
    I am back in this forum. Good to see the back and forth. But also see a lot of flagpoles with flags. Yet. At the hospital, when feeding my mother. Whether I fail to listen. Whether GED is not like rakusu sewing. This vanishes at that moment. There. Me. Mother. Eating. Appreciating the time. This is good for the rakusu in my heart. The mud wall falls under the rain. Mud turns into fertile ground.
    I an sorry for your mother's condition. Please let us know what we can do to help, and know that we are all there with you.

    I recall my mother's last months, a series of strokes. This is what happens to your mother, my mother, everyone's mother or father or wife or husband, to me and you. It is life, it is not easy ... yet not to be resisted.

    And that is a reason why sewing the Rakusu is not to be made 'so easy', why there must be some resistance. Let me respectfully remind you, life and death are of supreme importance ... time passes by, and opportunity is lost ...

    This place sometimes bothers me when folks start to sound like a bunch of bored homemakers going to a yoga class to kill their afternoon.

    Gassho, Jundo

  34. #34

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Quote Originally Posted by chicanobudista

    And that is a reason why sewing the Rakusu is not to be made 'so easy', why there must be some resistance.
    must or musn't? :?:

  35. #35

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by chicanobudista

    must or musn't? :?:
    Yes.

    Sometimes resistance, sometimes no resistance ... sometimes (and this is the trickiest) resistance without the least resistance.

    Good luck on sewing, and the situation with mom. All whole and the same.

  36. #36

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Quote Originally Posted by chicanobudista

    must or musn't? :?:
    Yes.

    Sometimes resistance, sometimes no resistance ... sometimes (and this is the trickiest) resistance without the least resistance.

    Good luck on sewing, and the situation with mom. All whole and the same.
    Thanks....gassho....

  37. #37
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Quote Originally Posted by chicanobudista

    And I think you dont hear me asking for help. But here I still am sitting outside the temple.
    At any Zen monastery in Asia, they will leave the person waiting to enter outside the door, ignored ... for hours, better for days, before his or her presence is even acknowledged.

    Before one can enter ... even if it is not literally 'out in the snow' (though sometimes so) ... one is left sitting Zazen morning to night for about a week in "Tangaryo" ... left in the same clothes, without a bath, their few belongings in a small bag leaning against the wall ...
    In China, they used to bind a woman's foot. In Africa, they mutilate women's genitalia. In most Western nations, men are circumcized. Kosher Jews don't eat pork.

    Referring to tradition is not an answer to the question - it's obfuscation. Chicanobuddhista (WTF is your real name again? I can't remember) is not Chinese or Japanese. Treating us as if we were is perhaps misguided.

    In a meat-world sangha, a student ignored by the teacher may nonetheless get some instruction from other students. How can that happen here regarding the bib?

    Chet

  38. #38
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo

    This place sometimes bothers me when folks start to sound like a bunch of bored homemakers going to a yoga class to kill their afternoon.

    Gassho, Jundo
    Bored homemakers are also worthy of the Dharma.

    Chet

  39. #39

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Chicanobuddhista (WTF is your real name again?
    oops..sorry..here...I forgot to put it on when I got here.....



    :mrgreen:

  40. #40

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Chicanobudista, I am sorry to hear about these difficult circonstances and wish all the best to your mum. Take it easy.

    Chet wrote:
    In a meat-world sangha, a student ignored by the teacher may nonetheless get some instruction from other students. How can that happen here regarding the bib?

    Chet, Chicanobudista is not ignored by the teacher, the teacher advises a course of action. It is fully part of the teaching. Of course, any student can receive help from others, it happens often. But there is a major difference between helping from time to time and organizing a whole sewing live session on line. This is not realistic for me because I live in Japan and it implies commitments you have no idea about. I don't want to burden others and ask them to do it and I think they are not rady yet to take this responsability.

    You are refering to the kesa as the bib. I find it offensive in your mouth. Particularly when you think you have no experience whatsoever of sewing it.


    Referring to tradition is part of the answer.

    We all find it very hard to take lessons and we all prefer to give them. You are obviously not an exception. Respect and gratitude are things that need to be learned sometimes.

    I am sorry to read your words and sincerely hope you are not feeling too unwell. If you are balanced and fine, I would strongly invite you to question your thoughts about this practice, your commitment and your style.

    gassho


    Taigu

  41. #41

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    One last thing that should be said...everytime I teach, this teaching is for me. Before I joined Treeleaf, I used to say that I had only one student and a very bad one, myself.

    gassho

    Taigu

  42. #42

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse

    In China, they used to bind a woman's foot. In Africa, they mutilate women's genitalia. In most Western nations, men are circumcized. Kosher Jews don't eat pork.
    ...

    In a meat-world sangha, a student ignored by the teacher may nonetheless get some instruction from other students. How can that happen here regarding the bib?

    Chet
    Some traditional and modern hard practices overstep a line of cruelty and are rather pointless. We do not use the Kyosaku stick in our Lineage for that reason (although, even that, if used gently is just a 'waker upper'. Menzan, I understand, wanted to use a long stick with a feather instead) ...

    http://home.comcast.net/~dayamati/kyosaku.jpg

    Other strict and hard practices leave a lesson in one's bones and are worthwhile. There is a difference.

    Some practices from Japan and China are silly for 21st century westerners to pursue, others are worthwhile to keep around. There is a difference.

    viewtopic.php?p=35552#p35552

    Getting instruction from each other, and supporting each other ... building a spirit of Sangha ... is also part of the sewing. That has been our experience the last two years. In fact, the teacher needs to not butt in too much to the sewers figuring it out for themselves, and supporting and encouraging each other. Furthermore, the students do a disservice to each other if they overly spell things out for each other, do the work for each other.

    I think it is time for you to sew a Rakusu, Chet, and to spend a bit less time with video games.

    Gassho, Jundo

  43. #43
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu
    Chicanobudista, I am sorry to hear about these difficult circonstances and wish all the best to your mum. Take it easy.

    Chet wrote:
    In a meat-world sangha, a student ignored by the teacher may nonetheless get some instruction from other students. How can that happen here regarding the bib?

    Chet, Chicanobudista is not ignored by the teacher, the teacher advises a course of action. It is fully part of the teaching. Of course, any student can receive help from others, it happens often. But there is a major difference between helping from time to time and organizing a whole sewing live session on line. This is not realistic for me because I live in Japan and it implies commitments you have no idea about. I don't want to burden others and ask them to do it and I think they are not rady yet to take this responsability.
    I do understand this, Taigu. My understanding is that your schedule is very busy. In a more traditional Sangha, there would be classes - because like so many Zen things, the way you do it is pretty particular - and to Americans, sewing itself is pretty foreign. My point was not to disrespect your time, my point was that more instruction is OFTEN required of people doing this particular thing, and such instruction is often provided. Hence, turning 'Sewing your Rakusu" into a koan is a bit - unintentionally untraditional. The bottom line is, it's not a disrespect of your time that I was expressing.

    You are refering to the kesa as the bib. I find it offensive in your mouth. Particularly when you think you have no experience whatsoever of sewing it.
    Actually, I was referring to the Rakusu. The Kesa is a mumu :twisted: Call it what you will, it's a bib. It's a fancy, Japanese, Zen bib, but that doesn't make it less bib-ish. If I was to walk down the street to the gas station for a snack wearing the rakusu - besides that in itself being very irreverant - someone might actually say, 'Hey, cool bib!' If I corrected them, that'd be mildly inappropriate in itself.

    As for offending you, glad I could be of service! Finally I've found my calling! :twisted:

    (All above offered in light-heartedness.)

    Chet

  44. #44
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    I think it is time for you to sew a Rakusu, Chet, and to spend a bit less time with video games.

    Gassho, Jundo
    Boy, do we ever agree on that! I need to figure out how to break it into a simple-step process. I think step one is finding the supply list and the vids - and getting a sewing kit.

    I often need to break down intimidating things into steps or I get overwhelmed by the whole big-damned-idea of it.

    I purchased the book, but have since misplaced it. It's probably at my mom's place in a box somewhere, sadly. I'll Amazon it - too bad it's not on iBooks yet.

    Chet

  45. #45

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Thanks, Chet.
    And yes, it would be great if you could give it a start.

    gassho

    Taigu

  46. #46
    Stephanie
    Guest

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    For all this talk of whether sharp words or a challenge can be useful--Erik, I've learned more about you as a person reading this thread than reading your other posts to a hundred other threads. Sometimes you strike me as aloof about Treeleaf, even (sorry!) smug and a bit condescending. One of the people who likes to joke around and have a few Zen debates but not open up too much or take any of this too personally or seriously. So I am glad, to finally have a different sense of you... someone with a sick mother, who taught GED classes and finds sewing difficult. Someone who doesn't seem smug, distant, or condescending to me now.

    Dosho, IMO, there's a difference between cruel and demeaning language, and language that is sharp, yet compassionate. I'm no fan of verbal cruelty. But I am a fan of the kind of striking honesty that shakes a person out of complacency and forces them to really look at something for a second.

    I admire the practice of Tangaryo and don't find it cruel or "medieval," but I'm not sure it's necessary either. I don't think that anything can artificially make someone deeply value this practice. I think it takes real hardship in life, real spiritual hardship, for this to ever become much more than an afternoon's pastime. But even then, even after suffering greatly in delusion and spiritual emptiness, and finding one's way back, one still can become complacent. That certainly has happened with me. I feel no urgency, or drive to sit, and as a result, my sitting practice is inconsistent--some days on, some days off, some days on, etc. I would sit Tangaryo if I had to in order to be able to continue to practice here, but then I would complete it and come back inside and go pretty quickly back to complacency.

    So how do we wake up from complacency, how do we feel a sense of urgency when our back isn't against the wall? That has been my koan for months. Let me know if you find an answer :wink:

    And as for the rakusu--isn't that aligned with the Jukai process? When does the next Jukai start? I want to do the next one, don't want to miss it.

  47. #47

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie
    For all this talk of whether sharp words or a challenge can be useful--Erik, I've learned more about you as a person reading this thread than reading your other posts to a hundred other threads. Sometimes you strike me as aloof about Treeleaf, even (sorry!) smug and a bit condescending. One of the people who likes to joke around and have a few Zen debates but not open up too much or take any of this too personally or seriously. So I am glad, to finally have a different sense of you... someone with a sick mother, who taught GED classes and finds sewing difficult. Someone who doesn't seem smug, distant, or condescending to me now.
    :shock: :mrgreen:

    Well. In my defense......I'll let my defense lawyer speak in my behalf



    :mrgreen:

    I usually can't spend too much time debating/discoursing/dialoguing due to my work (working in a migrant farmworker GED program), my family (married and taking care of both my elderly godfather and mother), and community (my sangha involvement, peace & social justice group, etc). So. I usually just poke here, quip, and move on. :wink: 8)

  48. #48

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    If I was to walk down the street to the gas station for a snack wearing the rakusu - besides that in itself being very irreverant - someone might actually say, 'Hey, cool bib!' If I corrected them, that'd be mildly inappropriate in itself.
    In Alabama, if you wore it to the gas station, you'd probably be
    run over by a monster truck! Then they'd use it to wipe you off
    the pavement.

    I'm still relatively new here. I often feel like a kindergartener among
    High Schoolers. But sometimes I read things that give me a little
    poke in my gutts that make me wonder if I am on the right path here.
    I mean, we just find out the alarming news about Chicanobudista's
    mother, and immediately, the conversation turns to..."sewing..."???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    I recall my mother's last months, a series of strokes. This is what happens to your mother, my mother, everyone's mother or father or wife or husband, to me and you. It is life, it is not easy ... yet not to be resisted.

    And that is a reason why sewing the Rakusu is not to be made 'so easy',

    I mean, maybe I am reading this wrong. But the jump between concern
    for someone's dying mother and sewing a rakusu seems like a universe
    apart. Is this the kind of compassion that years of zazen produces? I
    am sure I am misguided in this judgement. But a little human kindness
    and a little less ritualistic jargon would have done better in this situation.
    At least, that's how this "bored homemaker" sees it.

    ghop

  49. #49

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Quote Originally Posted by ghop
    I mean, maybe I am reading this wrong. But the jump between concern
    for someone's dying mother and sewing a rakusu seems like a universe
    apart. Is this the kind of compassion that years of zazen produces? I
    am sure I am misguided in this judgement. But a little human kindness
    and a little less ritualistic jargon would have done better in this situation.
    At least, that's how this "bored homemaker" sees it.

    ghop
    No, never a universe apart. And the teachings are the greatest gift that can be offered to someone whose mother is ill.

    A shoulder and a kind, loving word are always there too. But the teachings on life and suffering are the greatest gift that can be offered.

    Gassho, Jundo

  50. #50
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Rochester, NY, USA
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    4,877

    Re: Jundo's latest vid

    Erik: Very sorry to hear about your mother. As Jundo said, if there is anything we can do please let us know.

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    I do understand this, Taigu. My understanding is that your schedule is very busy. In a more traditional Sangha, there would be classes - because like so many Zen things, the way you do it is pretty particular - and to Americans, sewing itself is pretty foreign.
    Sewing is foreign to Americans? IMHO, I'd suggest that you stop speaking for entire groups and only for yourself Chet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie
    Dosho, IMO, there's a difference between cruel and demeaning language, and language that is sharp, yet compassionate. I'm no fan of verbal cruelty. But I am a fan of the kind of striking honesty that shakes a person out of complacency and forces them to really look at something for a second.
    There is most certainly a difference Stephanie, but like Chet you also seem to generalize what works for you as THE way for others. Some people don't need striking honesty...they need compassion. Striking honesty perhaps later, but the abrasive style you and Chet display is often too much so...IMHO.

    Gassho,
    Dosho

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