The Truth About Dogs and Cats

[JohnsonCM]

With the talk about Nansen and his cat, and then talking about Mu, I had a question:

Since we know that dogs and cats have Buddha-nature, can they also have attachments, delusions, conceptions and the like?

If we say they have Buddha-nature, doesn't that imply that they must also have the same problems we do? Is a dog or a cat always showing Buddha-nature? If not, what kind of delusions or attachments can a dog or a cat have?

[Hogo]

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

The best I can come up with:
I go to the fridge to grab a snack, followed closely begind by my dog. As the door swing open the steady 'thump..thump..thump...' of his tail against tile begins as hit butt hits the floor and the eyes light up. Oh boy Oh boy that smells good!.... Just maybe?... yet he has never been fed a scrap of human food........this is doggy delusion?
Gassho
~Dave

[Stephanie]

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

Chris, what do you expect to get out of asking these sorts of questions?

There is no way to "know" metaphysical information. One can intuit, feel, or believe, but certain knowledge is impossible. Why chase delusion?

[JohnsonCM]

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

Chris, what do you expect to get out of asking these sorts of questions?

There is no way to "know" metaphysical information. One can intuit, feel, or believe, but certain knowledge is impossible. Why chase delusion?

What do I expect to get? I should think that would answer itself. I don't expect anything. I do try to understand and the way to do that is to begin with inquiry. I do believe that having a basis of understanding in these sorts of things, by asking these types of questions, gives me (and others) an entry point in to the stream that is Zen. I do also believe that sitting, shikantaza is the core activity that we need in order to bring buddha-nature into everyday life. I don't believe that one should ever go without the other. That only leads to big heads or sore butts.

[Rich]

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

The best I can come up with:
I go to the fridge to grab a snack, followed closely begind by my dog. As the door swing open the steady 'thump..thump..thump...' of his tail against tile begins as hit butt hits the floor and the eyes light up. Oh boy Oh boy that smells good!.... Just maybe?... yet he has never been fed a scrap of human food........this is doggy delusion?
Gassho
~Dave

Give your dog a break. My dog will be 16 soon and I've always shared a taste of the 'good' food with him.

Chris, what do you expect to get out of asking these sorts of questions?

There is no way to "know" metaphysical information. One can intuit, feel, or believe, but certain knowledge is impossible. Why chase delusion?

What do I expect to get? I should think that would answer itself. I don't expect anything. I do try to understand and the way to do that is to begin with inquiry. I do believe that having a basis of understanding in these sorts of things, by asking these types of questions, gives me (and others) an entry point in to the stream that is Zen. I do also believe that sitting, shikantaza is the core activity that we need in order to bring buddha-nature into everyday life. I don't believe that one should ever go without the other. That only leads to big heads or sore butts.

Chris, don't let this zen stuff go to your head. Just sit down and shut up as brad says. AS soon as we open our mouths we are wrong.
/Rich

[JohnsonCM]

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

I don't know that I believe that. If that were the case no one would teach.

[JohnsonCM]

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

What I mean to say is this. I know and believe that Zen is a transmission beyond words, but let's be honest. We need words. We do. We need to talk, to discuss. We are not enlightened yet (at least I'm not) so just sitting won't do it all for me. Part of this is to learn. Not just intellectually, no not at all, but you need the knowledge to begin the process. Other wise it would be like going to a great teacher who never said a word to you before they died. You'd probably think you learned something, but I doubt you would have. There seems to be a large segment of people who think they know. To be honest, I don't feel like I know anything.

[Rich]

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

What I mean to say is this. I know and believe that Zen is a transmission beyond words, but let's be honest. We need words. We do. We need to talk, to discuss. We are not enlightened yet (at least I'm not) so just sitting won't do it all for me. Part of this is to learn. Not just intellectually, no not at all, but you need the knowledge to begin the process. Other wise it would be like going to a great teacher who never said a word to you before they died. You'd probably think you learned something, but I doubt you would have. There seems to be a large segment of people who think they know. To be honest, I don't feel like I know anything.

If you know that 'Zen is a transmission beyond words' then why are you insisting on intellectual answers to the question of 'Does a dog have Buddha nature?' and 'can they also have attachments, delusions, conceptions and the like? ' I'm not suggesting that we don't need words. I'm suggesting you might be intellectuallizing too much and practicing too little. But I think you are on to something with the 'I don't feel like I know anything' That 'not knowing' can cut thru a lot of shit and bring you to something called - well I don't know - is it reality? or do you prefer 'buddha nature'?
/Rich

[will]

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

the same problems we do?

What's the problem?


Gassho

[will]

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

If that were the case no one would teach./

Listen to what Shunryu has to say about that:

Even though your speech is good, many things will happen just because you picked up one thing. If you don’t do anything, nothing will happen. But because we do something many things will follow. That is actual fact. So we call it "Genj?-k?an." ["Actualizing the Fundamental Point," a fascicle of D?gen's Sh?b?genz?.] That is our k?an to solve—actual k?an we have.

If you don’t pick up anything, it means that if you understand what is the real teaching of Buddhism, it means what is the purpose of Buddhism. Purpose of Buddhism is not to establish Buddha's teaching, Buddha's groups, but to help people. And to help people going their own way. Just because they are not following their own way. So Buddha gives them some warning: "If you do not follow the right path, you will be lost." That is only reason why Buddha left his teaching for human being. So he doesn’t want to pick up anything. Or there is no need to pick up anything if all sentient beings follow right path. But most people or some Buddhist will make big mistake. They try to establish something for sake of Buddhism in its small, narrow sense. Then that is big mistake

The real purpose of Buddhism is to bring about the time when we do not need Buddha's teaching, when we do not need Zen Center or anything. Without teacher, without Buddhist teacher, we can follow our own way. That is best. That is the goal of Buddhism. The goal of Buddhism is to bring about human life where there is no Buddhism. So not to pick up anything or to bring about a human life where there is no need to pick up anything is why we make our effort.

And personally, because we always try to pick up something and to establish something in its small sense, is small mind. That is why the more we make effort, the more we have trouble [laughs]. That’s very silly—if we establish something just to have more trouble [laughs], it doesn't make sense.

http://www.cuke.com/Cucumber%20Project/ ... cture.html


Gassho

[JohnsonCM]

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

I agree with you Will, but as you said, that is why Buddha left his teachings. We aren't there yet. At least I don't feel like I am. Perhaps I will hear enough and read enough, and learn enough one day to say, "wow, this is it, and I don't need that stuff I learned anymore to be right here." But I don't think you'll ever hear me say that I didn't need to learn it first to help me get on my path to there.

[JohnsonCM]

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

If you know that 'Zen is a transmission beyond words' then why are you insisting on intellectual answers to the question of 'Does a dog have Buddha nature?' and 'can they also have attachments, delusions, conceptions and the like? '

This is hard to explain but, I believe without these questions, or rather without inquiry, discourse, conversation and communication with those wiser than me, it would be like someone say taking an accountant into a forest and saying,"Ok, your 10 days from anywhere, but here's a plastic spork, so we expect you to survive and get back to civilization." Sure, it could happen. But my money's on the forest winning. On the other hand, and again please make sure you all read the following:

I am in no way saying that intellectualizing will get me to enlightenment. I do not believe that understanding and memorizing facts will enlighten me. I am saying that conversations on the Way and the Dharma, can spur the (stealing from Will's post from Suzuki Roshi) small mind into opening to the Big Mind.

Anyway, on the other hand asking these questions, inquiry and learning from those wiser than myself would be like taking the same accountant to the same forest and giving him a knife and a wilderness survival guide.

I'm suggesting you might be intellectuallizing too much and practicing too little. But I think you are on to something with the 'I don't feel like I know anything' That 'not knowing' can cut thru a lot of shit and bring you to something called - well I don't know - is it reality? or do you prefer 'buddha nature'?

As to my practice, I wish I could say that I never neglect it...but I don't want to lie. It may be that I am doing just that, thinking too much and practicing too little. You actually wouldn't be the first to say that. But is that correct? Or perhaps, am I miss-communicating my meanings and intentions? There's the crux for me. I don't know if I am over thinking or under explaining.

[Jundo]

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

With the talk about Nansen and his cat, and then talking about Mu, I had a question:

Since we know that dogs and cats have Buddha-nature, can they also have attachments, delusions, conceptions and the like?

If we say they have Buddha-nature, doesn't that imply that they must also have the same problems we do? Is a dog or a cat always showing Buddha-nature? If not, what kind of delusions or attachments can a dog or a cat have?

Let me put it this way, as one view on this ...

We do need certain intellectual knowledge for this Practice, for all of life. How to fluff a Zafu, how to ring the bells, how to understand basically some basic Buddhist teachings such as the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path, the mechanism by which the fiction/non-fiction of an abiding 'self' is created, a bit about impermanence and such. We also need a --basic-- (emphasis on basic) understanding of more abstract ideas such as Emptiness, or of "Buddha-nature" in the sense that we realize we are all as perfectly Buddha as the Buddha ever is or was ... Buddha-nature ... and may not see that fact clearly, though having the potential.

But our practice also tells us to SIMPLIFY the mind about many things, silence certain thoughts and emotions and listen (and lose ourself) instead to the silence, drop certain questions as the "answer" (if there is an "answer"). The rest is then clearly shown as being much like arguing about 'how many angels can stand on the head of a pin', or whether 'a tree in the forest makes a sound when nobody is around to hear it', or whether 'the New York Yankees would win the World Series if it were played on Mars.'.

Saying that we do not need a more detailed knowledge of "Buddha-nature" is not an intellectual cop-out. Far from it. Rather, it is just like saying that one does not need an intellectual understanding of the vanilla ice cream cone in one's hand (it's chemical make up, point of origin of the vanilla beans, the name of the president of the company that manufactured it) to savor and know the sweetness and coolness on one's tongue. THAT is the Reality of the vanilla! One does not require knowledge of the latin scientific name of the rose in order to bask in its scent, feel the sting of its thorns. One does not need an intellectual understanding of what "LOVE" is, and its biological mechanism, to know love and love one's partner with all one's heart. That kind of "KNOWLEDGE".

One can analyze a dog by its atoms and molecules, the genetic properties of its DNA, its feeding and breeding habits (I think that is vital and necessary knowledge that has its place). You can debate whether a dog can or needs to practice Buddhism or not (If you ask me, I think that is more like debating about how many Yankees can stand on the head of a pin. A bit of wheel spinning. ).

But our Zen Practice teaches us to find a certain kind of "knowledge" about that dog that drops all that ... and to see that Dog as constantly changing, as you me and the most distant star in the Dog Nebula, as just perfectly what it is beyond all human thought of perfection and imperfection. If you ask me, that latter kind of "knowledge" is its "Buddha-nature", as is tasted through our Practice.

Anyway, whether a dog or cat has delusions and attachments or not, I will say that this Buddhist practice allows human beings to overcome and move beyond our animal natures (one reason the Buddha always emphasized how fortunate it is to be born a human being, and have the opportunity to practice this Practice).

So, does a dog have delusions? Mu!

Does a cat have attachments to its litter box! Cut that cat in two!

Maybe ask this fellow ...



Suzuki Roshi mentioned this famous line from Dogen Zenji in Fukanazengi ... "If there is a thousandth or a hundredth of a gap, the separation is as great as that between heaven and earth; and if a trace of disagreement arises, we lose the mind in confusion. "

Sitting still, silent, wholly in Zazen ... all is clear. Start thinking about things, and the gap becomes as wide as that between heaven and earth. So, there are some questions to ponder ... many question to drop and just let sit and be sat. About the really important questions ... SIT MORE, philosophize less.

Gassho, Jundo

[Taigu]

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

Let me add my own thing for what it is worth, merely nothing...

Buddhism is not a system which provides answers to all sorts of question, it is an experience available that values questions as ways to open up, not boxes to tick and essays to write. If an anwer comes, it is not verbal or conceptual, it is in blood, bone and marrow that the answer is heard and seen. It takes you to a place where questions and answers swallow each other and collapse. As Stephanie points out, metaphysical stuff is a comple and absolute loss of time.

gassho


Taigu

[Jundo]

Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

As Stephanie points out, metaphysical stuff is a comple and absolute loss of time.

gassho


Taigu

I am going to shorten what I originally posted here, cause I wandered off point ...

I will make a rare departure here from Brother Taigu, as I enjoy a bit of metaphysical speculation myself from time to time. But, yes, it is not central to our practice, a side issue, a game. The Buddha usually resisted metaphysical speculation as not pertinent, a side issue, a distraction to our practice.

To rework something I like to say ...

If a dog has Buddha-nature, or delusions or attachments ... chop wood and fetch water.

And if a dog does not have Buddha-nature, or delusions and attachments ... chop wood and fetch water,

Gassho, J