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Thread: The Sitting Hall

  1. #351

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    While working I'm in that room for the next hour or two

    http://www.koowy.com/Treeleafzenhall

    just for testing purposes ... if anybody might try. They seem to have pretty tiny
    images, which for me is a plus for not wasting bandwidth, opinions welcome.
    _()_
    Peter

  2. #352

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Peter, my understanding is that Koowy is the current name for MeBeam, our old Sitting Hall client. One of the positives, as you point out, is low bandwidth usage. I used to be able to sit live zazenkai & be on MeBeam simultaneously. On the other hand, it was frustrating not knowing who you were sitting with at any given moment. I also remember MeBeam's customer support being nonexistent..... which isn't a surprise because it's free. My opinion is also free, and worth what you pay for it. :lol:

    gassho,
    Shujin

  3. #353
    Treeleaf Unsui Shugen's Avatar
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    The Sitting Hall

    Hello,

    Koowy worked fine for me but I was by myself. I'm not sure what will happen with multiple users. Lion is coming out in July so hopefully it won't be an issue after that.

    Ron


    Btw, My son has a baseball game tonight so I may or may not be in the kwooy zenhall at the time I scheduled.

  4. #354

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Hmmm, this morning Koowy wont work for me ...
    interesting that these video stuff is still so instable,
    looking forward to Lion now
    _()_
    Peter

  5. #355

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Koowy gives me a dialoque box for AdobeFlash Player Settings. When I click to close another dialoque box appears for a split-second. After doing this for several times i was able to determine that it is asking me to "allow" this action. However, the box is not there long enough (try as I might) to click. Consequently, I cannot use Koowy. I seem to remember this happening before with Mebeam and how relieved I was at the time of the arrival of ooVoo. :roll: It's the old Appple/MS wars all over again, isn't it. :mrgreen:

  6. #356

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    I'm afraid I just gave up on the sitting hall ages ago, the old vario I borrow will have none of it, I even got frozen during Jukai, but I think I had it going again before anybody noticed the idiot still with the rakusu on his bonce! :lol:

  7. #357

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    :lol: :lol: :lol:
    _()_
    Peter

  8. #358

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    It was a long time sinking in, perhaps, but whether standing, or sitting, walking or even (having laid down the attachments involved) lying down we are all sitting together; just as many here have tried to tell me.
    Any, either or all ways in their turn it is still great just sitting with all of you (in any manner of speaking); as I know you are and I am.
    ...a bit like an ever-present ethernet without the artificial technical difficulties.
    Gassho,
    Engyo

  9. #359

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Engyo -- you are quite right in that we are all sitting together. Having said that, I'm looking forward to July & the release of Apple's Liger (or is it Tigon?) The Sitting Hall schedule definitely reflects the exclusion of our Mac peeps.

    Ango is about two months off. Double the Sitting Hall action, suckaz! Super excited for that, although I might need to get my head checked for saying so.

    gassho,
    Shujin

  10. #360
    Treeleaf Unsui Shugen's Avatar
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    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by Shujin
    Engyo -- you are quite right in that we are all sitting together. Having said that, I'm looking forward to July & the release of Apple's Liger (or is it Tigon?) The Sitting Hall schedule definitely reflects the exclusion of our Mac peeps.

    Ango is about two months off. Double the Sitting Hall action, suckaz! Super excited for that, although I might need to get my head checked for saying so.

    gassho,
    Shujin
    Yes. And, Yes.

    Ron

  11. #361

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Hi all,
    I am going to try and sit shortly after 7am each morning for the next few weeks (Dublin / GMT time). I will start ay 7.05 or 7.10 am, sit for 40 mins, follow with a 10 min Kinhin and a recitation of the Heart Sutra (in Japanese), the Four Vows (in English) and end with the Taking of Refuge (in Pali).

    Let's see how I get on. Kids may stop me some mornings, but I'll give it my best shot. Anyone that wants to join me, I'll be happy to see you in the sitting hall. Let's hope you see me! :wink:

    Gassho,
    Soen

  12. #362
    Treeleaf Unsui Shugen's Avatar
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    The Sitting Hall

    Got booted out of the downstairs so my wife and kids can have "Harry Potter" night. Guess I'll be sitting upstairs. :-)

    Ron

  13. #363

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Soen -- I calculated the time difference the wrong way, & figured I would sit with you. Then I looked on the schedule and realized that's 0200 my time. D'oh!

    Ron -- My three year old has been seizing the desktop for Netflix lately, so I sympathize. I sat the zazenkai at 0500 this morning, sans coffee. As you can imagine, this was a strategic disaster of epic proportions. My mind was a carbon-copy of the dog from the Beggin' Strips commercials ("IT'S BACON!!!! BACON! BACON! BACON!). Replace bacon with coffee, though. :P

    gassho,
    Shujin

  14. #364
    Treeleaf Unsui Shugen's Avatar
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    The Sitting Hall

    Shujin,
    I would have just fallen asleep and my wife or kids would have gotten quite a scare! :-)

    Ron

  15. #365

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Hi Shujin,
    Thank you for your intention. I hope we bump into each other in the hall sometime.
    Gassho
    Soen

  16. #366
    Treeleaf Unsui Shugen's Avatar
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    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Shujin,

    Thank You for the company in the koowy zen-hall tonight. I really appreciate it. _/_

    Ron

  17. #367

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Try as I might, I stil connot get into the koowy zen-hall :roll:

  18. #368

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Y'all -- I was looking at my Google Calendar this evening, and saw they now have "appointment slots" available. I've been thinking about how the Sitting Hall schedule could be improved, and switching to Google Calendar might be an option. The main thing I like about the appointments is that it appears you can have more than one person signing up for a slot at once. I don't know if we could embed the calendar in the Sitting Hall page, however.

    If you have the inclination, and a Gmail account, I'd like to know what people think of Google Calendar v the current schedule. The Sitting Hall has always been underutilized, and a new scheduler isn't going to change that. I think if one could see when people are sitting in groups this would be quite helpful to both newcomers and regulars, however. (eg Peter Lin, Shokai & Chessie sitting at a particular time in the AM, or Ron, Engyo & Shujin in the PM)

    There are plenty of other calendars and schedules out there that I have no clue about. If anyone has another option, bring it.

    Thank you all for your practice.

    **Edit** If you don't care about this, you can say that too. :P

    gassho,
    Shujin

  19. #369

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Shujin,

    I'll admit that I don't typically use the sitting hall as I once did when I came to Treeleaf. Some of that is purely because I usually don't know in advance when I'll be able to sit, the times I do certainly aren't consistent from day to day, and I have a very slow computer that can barely stream and rarely view videos. Add to that fact that I haven't been sitting as much lately, but in the last couple days I've really thought that I'd like to sit more with other folks. The current scheduler doesn't help in that regard for a few reasons, some of which you already noted: Can't sign up more than one person, can't sign up for 3pm when it's 3:01, can't input the fact that you were there after the fact to encourage others to sit with you in the future, etc.

    My point is that you are right when you say a new scheduler isn't necessarily going to change anything, but it might help the problems noted above and perhaps have some unintended positive effect as well. I have never used Google Calendar so I can't speak to that, but I can say that I am behind any effort to increase the use of the sitting hall and will do what I can to use it as it is and to help make it better in any way I can. That may not be saying much, but I thought I should at least offer my support in what you are trying to do. It is undoubtedly a worthy goal and thanks for trying to get our attention!

    Gassho,
    Dosho

  20. #370

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Hi Shujin
    I had done a really rough mock up a bit ago and had made just such a calendar
    Using google calendar for scheduling your self in the the hall is a great idea as you said it allows multiple persons to schedule the same time (the point of the zen hall right!) The catch is for persons to put themselves on they have to have their email account as some one who can edit. Not a big deal really as the old scheduler requires similar right and you only need to do it once. The other minor catch is there needs to be some one acting as the maintenance guy adding people to the calendar as they request to use it.

    I have the calendar set up and a volunteer tester if anyone else would like to give it ago please pm me your email address and I will set you up on it.

    Now the real issue is finding a conferencing application that is A) stable B) fully functional cross platform C) wont break the bank.

    Here is a link to the cruddy page I slapped together as a mock up for the zen hall a bit ago (on it you will see the calnedar).

    http://web.me.com/shoh3i/Site/Movie.html

    Id like to get you all together on this as you use it and with out you, technology bugs or not there is no zen hall

    Gassho
    Shohei

  21. #371

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Dosho -- thank you for your kind words. I can certainly identify with some of your situation; I try to sit with the times I've scheduled, but sometimes my kids have other plans. I'm sure this is a great surprise to you. :P

    Shohei -- thank you for taking up this idea. I know you're busy with quite a few more important issues. My work filter won't let me look at anything video related, so I'll have to start hunting for conferencing applications when at home. I don't think I'm going to find anything you haven't already considered, but I suppose anything is possible. I heard an ad for the radio for GoToMeeting awhile ago... and almost had a stroke when I saw the cost.

    Unrelated, but has anyone been following the LulzSec story from a couple of days ago?

    http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/lulz ... ation/8892

    http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/lulz ... ealed/8905

    The whole thing kinda reads like a William Gibson novel.

    gassho,
    Shujin

  22. #372

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    That's looks quite easy to use, nice work

  23. #373

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Hi all,
    I agree that the Sitting Hall is not used enough. I love the public aspect it potentially gives to sitting. I am usually alone when I sit there, but the very idea that someone might sit "beside" me gives my sitting the feeling of being in a flesh and blood zendo, where space is shared with others.

    Sitting with others helps my discipline in sitting ... even if I am alone, I have the feeling that I am not.

    No doubt the Sitting Hall will become more and more central to Treeleaf as the technology improves.

    Deep bow to all,
    Soen

  24. #374
    Treeleaf Unsui Shugen's Avatar
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    Redding California USA

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Thank You Shohei.

    Ron

  25. #375

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Hi, all.

    I've had no luck getting getting in the sitting hall for a number of months now. I rarely know when I'll be able to sit until just beforehand, so if I can't just drop in to the hall, I probably cannot make it work for me.

    I've got a mac, so most of my problems are still just getting anything to work . . . It either continually says connecting to oovoo or contacting Shohei. Either way, I've not been able to get in.

    Shohei--I really appreciate your hard work on this. Please don't take any of what I'm saying as complaint. I sit with everyone here nightly even if I can't connect on the computer, so it is a non-problem. I'm just adding my experiences to the conversation. With macs such a common platform, it surprises me that it is still difficult for online conferencing sites to make their stuff compatible.

    See you all tonight, even if I don't see you tonight!

    Gassho,
    Eika

  26. #376
    Treeleaf Unsui Shugen's Avatar
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    The Sitting Hall

    Hi Eika,

    I have a Mac also. Oovoo has been fine until recently. They have upgraded their system in anticipation of Apple's new operating system Lion coming out next month. I've been using the koowy hall (see Shohei's reply further up the thread for the link). It seems to work okay for me though some people have been having issues with it. I think things are going to be changing anyway, but if you wanna try and sit with someone, you can try the koowy hall.

    On a completely different note, I scheduled myself to sit at 9 tonight and just found out my wife and I will be having a late dinner. I'll probably be late. (I don't know if I am smart enough to access the gmail calendar from my phone to change it)

    Ron

  27. #377

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Just a mention that we are also having an issue with Ustream for the weekly Zazenkai (new ads policy with tv-like commercials that would cost thousands of dollars in fees to remove). However, I think we have an alternative that we will try this weekend for our 4-hour monthly Zazenkai. If all goes well, the change will not be too noticeable.

    Gassho, J

  28. #378

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Thanks, Ron. I'd overlooked the koowy hall . . . It worked great.

    Peace,
    Eika

  29. #379

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Failed again this morning! just got a little red error sign that said click here for detail, (but it would'nt click). Tried the mebeam alternative at the bottom, it did nothing.

  30. #380

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Ouch .. just found i have been placing all my zazen times in the "private" calendar, not the treeleaf one; its kind of easy to add them to the wrong one. When clicking on the calendar one needs to pick "treeleaf sitting schedule" explicitly, not difficult, but I wasn't aware of this. So you not only couldnt see me in the zendo but not even my schedule ... Doesn't matter much, i agree :-D Anyway, now I'm correctly scheduled.
    Ona side note: Even though Mac OSX Lion is coming soon I wont be able to update and get back to oovoo, as two of the main apps I'm using are not expected to be Lion compatible soon, and I need them for daily work ... so still Peter the invisible zendo sitter

  31. #381
    Member roky's Avatar
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    silver city, new mexico, usa

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    hello all -- been trying out the Koowy(mebeam) zen hall -- so far, all is well, but we'll see -- seems very stable, though admittedly video quality is poor, but then, since i'm meditating, so what? -- and free!

    and thanks again shohei, really like the google calendar(once i figured it out) -- when i add the treeeleaf calendar to my google calendar, it is then in my time zone -- and if i remember to add my sits to the treeleaf calendar, not just my calendar, works so fine -- this will come in extra handy when the inevitable connection issues resurface, particularly when i go back to my desert wifi -- at least when we're on the calendar, we know who we're sitting with, even without video

    havn't tried adding myself on the calendar to someone else's sit -- has anyone else tried that yet?

    at first, i was in the wrong hall -- i see that the new hall on koowy is "treeleafzenhall" -- there also still exists "treeleaf-zenhall"(the old mebeam zen hall), and "treeleaf-zen"(i think the old meeting hall) -- apparently the old ones carried over from mebeam

    i will be sitting a retreat online beginning 7/12, as the wife is away until 7/20 -- i will try and do it in the hall -- i prefer koowy(not only does it work on macs, it also works on linux, which i prefer to use) -- but i do also have a partition for windows, if folks want to use oovoo -- thats assuming anyone else is sitting -- i would assume that at some point we need to work out which to use, oovoo vs. koowy(sounds like a japanese sci-fi -- maybe brad could write the script :lol: )

    gassho, roky

  32. #382
    Member roky's Avatar
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    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by roky

    havn't tried adding myself on the calendar to someone else's sit -- has anyone else tried that yet?
    ok, just did it, was simple, click on the entry, click edit, and you can add yourself to another's sit -- also being sure to be using "treeleaf sitters schedule" in the calendar box -- very cool, its nice knowing who you're sitting with

  33. #383

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Hi all,
    Why am I the only name in the sitting hall calender? Am I in a calendar all of my own? I don't understand where you have to chose the Treelead calendar. Advice appreciated.
    Gassho
    Soen

  34. #384

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Soen,
    you have to be added to the Treeleaf calendar (by your email address),
    to make the treeleaf calendar visible to you; right now you only see you
    private calendar. You can mail Shohei to add you; maybe I can add you
    too, at least I see a button which says "add person" and asks for an email.
    _()_
    Peter

  35. #385

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Hi Soen!
    Yes please send me a pm with your email address(if you do not have a gmail, account its best - aka - easiest for all, to set one up...takes 2 mins tops) and I will add you.
    Besure, as mentioned above (thank you folks I think i forgot to mention that! ops: ) you must, when scheduling your self on the calendar be sure to set which calendar you are scheduling for (default is your email address, treeleaf is an option that must be manually selected)

    For the record I have set you all up, with the ability to add others as they request. The steps are not hard but there are like 4 or them, I will put them here so you can give it a go if you want I will give you an email address to practice with too!

    1) log into your gmail account.
    2) go to calendars, on the left column find and click on the link that says settings
    3) now find and click on the link that says Treeleaf Sitters Schedule
    4) now find and click on the link that says "Share this calendar"
    5) now add the new email address in the text box, beside it change the default option of "See all event details" to "Make changes AND manage sharing" - then click the save button at the bottom.

    Ooops 5 steps! For those so inclined give it a whirl with this address iphnprnt@gmail.com (its mine). If you succeed then let us know here and you can lend a helping hand to others. If not, no worries! I will of course be around to help out as I can when ever needed!!

    i would assume that at some point we need to work out which to use, oovoo vs. koowy(sounds like a japanese sci-fi -- maybe brad could write the script :lol: )
    HAHA Indeed Roky, on both
    We do as group, need to workout a solid technical solution but for the video guts as well as a nice (free :?)back up solution - because as in all things - its not a matter of IF, its WHEN.
    Kloowy works most times in this capacity but for a main solution..well this Mac vs ooovoo update thing is hard to ignore.

    Gassho
    Shohei

  36. #386

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Shohei,
    step 1) is probably meant as "log in your google account", maybe it works with gmail accounts too, I dont know if they have teamed up as I have no gmail, in any way, I log in with my google account
    Thanks and _()_
    Peter

    ps.: Today i got into koowy, but it kicked me out after 5 minutes or so, due to inactivity I guess :lol:

  37. #387

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Thanks Peter and Shohei!
    Peter, I think Shohei is going to add me on the calandar.
    By the way, am I right that there are two live zen hall systems being used? And that a Mac person and PC person will never meet in the hall, because they are using two seperate systems? And does that mean the sittting hall calander is the only common ground?

    I hope a unified system and calandar, and both embedded on the site, are possible soon. I also know that everyone is doing their best!

    Thanks again guys.
    Gassho
    Soen

  38. #388

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Soen,
    oovoo is being used as the common hall up until a few weeks ago, when some change at oovoo made it difficult or impossible for Mac people to join. There is also a koowy (previously mebeam) system that has been used before oovoo and which is still an option for some Mac people (well, not working good for me too), so after all thats exactly what we aim for, a common system for the future. And i wouldnt mind to pay for it, if it only would be half way reasonable...
    _()_
    Peter

  39. #389
    Treeleaf Unsui Shugen's Avatar
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    The Sitting Hall

    Hello,

    I think Koowy is usable for both Mac and PC. Shujin and I have sat together and I'm pretty sure he has a PC. As to being kicked out, I've noticed that Koowy will kick you out but then readmit you a few seconds later. (At least that's what happens with me)

    Ron

  40. #390

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Thanks Ron,
    yep, koowy should be Mac and PC, I know Richard however never got in (he's on PC); and for me it sometimes work and sometimes not, no clue why. When being kicked out, I remain outside until I click it again, however, I dislike clicking every few minutes when sitting ( I know we sit with everything ;-))
    _()_
    Peter

  41. #391

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Lin
    Shohei,
    step 1) is probably meant as "log in your google account", maybe it works with gmail accounts too, I dont know if they have teamed up as I have no gmail, in any way, I log in with my google account
    Thanks and _()_
    Peter

    ps.: Today i got into koowy, but it kicked me out after 5 minutes or so, due to inactivity I guess :lol:
    Yes "google account". Gmail is Google mail, an optional part of your google account

    Gassho
    Shohei

  42. #392
    Member roky's Avatar
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    silver city, new mexico, usa

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    ron, peter -- yes, so far koowy is more stable for me than mebeam was, though i've only used it for 2 sits so far -- as ron said, it will occassionally "refresh" itself, but that is like seconds -- this improvement may be due to my high speed cable connection, not koowy itself

    i just prefer koowy cause it works on linux, which for me is much faster than my windows install, and without the worry of viruses -- if the sitting hall ever finally takes off(and maybe the new scheduler will help?), and oovoo is chosen, i will just use oovoo, and pay a share -- but for my upcoming "retreat", i expect it will be koowy -- i'll indicate which hall it is after my name on the scheduler

    but i do think the fact that oovoo has been promising a linux version for 3 yrs does tend to offend us linux users -- whereas mebeam/koowy has managed to have one for a long time

    its just hard to go back to windows after getting used to linux -- kind of like going back and using one of your old computers with a slowwwww processor -- just loading windows takes forever, and then the firewall is always going "blah,blah, blah"

    anyway, i actually think the most important link is the new scheduler -- nice to know who you're sitting with

  43. #393

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    The new schedule seems to be going well. I enjoy the ability to change my times when something comes up (such as my children waking up at 0545 this morning).

    My desktop has just about given out after seven years, so we're down to one computer in mi casa. My old webcam doesn't seem to work with Windows 7, so for now I'm sitting as an icon. I haven't actually tried logging into Koowy without a webcam.... I wonder if it will let me. At some point I'm going to bite the bullet and get another computer, but for now the price tag is scaring me away. :?

    gassho,
    Shujin

  44. #394
    Member roky's Avatar
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    Re: The Sitting Hall

    howdy, shujin -- yes, koowy lets you in without a webcam, you just are a blue screen -- and you can be identified on the scheduler, if you add yourself

    gassho, roky

  45. #395

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Hi all,
    the Google calendar really works well. I imagine it should be possible to embed it on the Treeleaf site.

    Also, have you seen the new Google + service? It's 'hang out' feature just might offer a solution for the zen hall. It seems a few people can get together by webcam. Have a look and see what you think. It might be the free and stable and cross OS service we've been looking for. The problem is, it hasn't been rolled out yet. Who knows what it will be like.
    Gassho
    Soen

  46. #396
    Member roky's Avatar
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    Re: The Sitting Hall

    soen -- shohei sent me a link to google+, and i joined -- hope it works out, cause it looks very promising -- and together with google calendar, could cover all the bases -- video quality seems superior to koowy -- a cool thing is it works very well in linux ubuntu, easy install, no tweaking required. i will use koowy for my retreat, but am looking forward to testing google+

    gassho, roky

  47. #397

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    I tried it this morning and will do my morning zazen in an hour, BUT as I get it, we not automatically come together when we use this "hangout", it to me SEEMS we need to invite each other (and the invited person needs to join); so it rather seems not as directly as koowy or oovoo where we just need to enter a certain room to be together if someone else is sitting at the same time; but maybe I just didnt get it yet
    _()_
    Peter

  48. #398

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Lin
    I tried it this morning and will do my morning zazen in an hour, BUT as I get it, we not automatically come together when we use this "hangout", it to me SEEMS we need to invite each other (and the invited person needs to join); so it rather seems not as directly as koowy or oovoo where we just need to enter a certain room to be together if someone else is sitting at the same time; but maybe I just didnt get it yet
    _()_
    Peter
    Actually when you join the hangout it'll post it up on your thread. So when I log into G+ I can see that you are 'hanging out' and then I could just click join to join you. What I would be interested in seeing is what happens when the originator disconnects. I tested it with my wife this morning and it seem to let her stay in the 'room' and from her profile I could re-join her.

    i created a Treeleaf circle so that when I 'hangout' I can just send it to my Treeleaf circle and then you can join me should you be so inclined.

    Seems like it may work well actually.

    I haven't got the calendar setup yet but fired off an email to Shohei so hopefully soon.

    Thanks!

    Gassho,

    Shawn

  49. #399

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Wow, better than it seemed to me. Good news,
    _()_
    Peter

  50. #400

    Re: The Sitting Hall

    Hi all,
    Peter and I sat together in Google+ this morning. It worked a dream. Very stable. The first sitter just has to invite his / her Treeleaf circle and then people can come and go as they please. Or, indeed, you can sit there on your own. I think it is the solution we have been looking for for the Zen Hall. I also think it would be great for the Teaparty Fugen. Well done Shohei for getting the ball rolling! I am very impressed with it (and the Google Calendar for sitting times works great too).

    I think the whole Google+ service offers huge possibilities for Treeleaf as a whole, and for Jundo and Taigu in their teaching.

    Can Hangouts be uploaded to YouTube, by the way? Has anyone figured that one out?

    Gassho
    Soen

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  2. Cast your vote here for a sitting hall(mebeam or oovoo)
    By roky in forum Archive of Older Threads
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 09-09-2010, 02:04 AM
  3. After sitting in the zen hall...
    By Tb in forum Archive of Older Threads
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-05-2009, 12:30 AM
  4. Sitting along in the Zen hall
    By undeceivable in forum Archive of Older Threads
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-25-2008, 12:46 PM
  5. when is mic off in sitting hall?
    By ..::walter::.. in forum Archive of Older Threads
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 05-11-2008, 04:39 AM

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