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Thread: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IX (Bad Roshis)

  1. #1

    Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IX (Bad Roshis)

    Hi,

    This posting has taken me a very long time to sit with and write ... years perhaps ...

    Today's subject in our "BIG Questions" series ... "When Roshis Act Ugly, Small And All Too Human".

    First, let us set out the Indictment ... and it just scratches the surface. Nothing should be hidden. Many skeletons in Zen's closet it seems.

    Quote Originally Posted by David
    In his book "Zen at War", Soto Priest Brian Victoria presents surprisingly militaristic quotes from many Japanese Buddhist Priests, from both Zen and other sects, in the years during and leading up to World War II, such as this by Harada Daiun Sogaku Roshi (of the Yasutani-Harada Lineage) in 1939: "If ordered to march: tramp, tramp or shoot: bang, bang. This is the manifestation of the highest wisdom of enlightenment. The unity of Zen and war . . . extends to the farthest reaches of the holy war now under way." How is it possible for a Buddhist priest to hold such beliefs and make such statements?" Harada's main successor, Yasutani Roshi was an ardent right-wing nationalist who expressed his belief in the "demonic teachings of the scheming Jews" who have a "treacherous design to usurp [control of] and dominate the entire world" How could he be filled with such racism?
    Quote Originally Posted by David
    How can we explain Philip Kaplaeu and Ko’un Yamada bickering and sniping? If they had seen into the oneness of things... their oneness with each other, how can this behaviour have come about? How can we explain Taizan Maezumi’s drink addiction and [like Katagiri Roshi, Edo Roshi and Master Seung Sahn] affairs with his female students? Doesn’t Satori free one from desire and dependency? [H]ow can we explain Richard Baker having an affair with his friend’s wife? Is this the compassion of a realized Zen person? What is most shocking is that he is the sole Dharma heir of Shunryu Suzuki. His book ‘Zen Mind, Beginners Mind’ is much loved. Why would he have chosen Richard Baker his Dharma heir if Baker was not worthy of it?

    There is the ongoing scandal with Eido Roshi ...

    http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index....0,9253,0,0,1,0
    It is quite a list of human weakness, ugliness and falling down.

    Here is how I have come to think of it ...

    __________________________________________________ ___



    All human beings, from 'Great Bodhisattvas' right on down to the rest of us, are human beings ... and that means rough edges, cracks and ugly spots, flesh, fallings down and flaws. (At least, of course, until we eventually become Perfect Golden Buddhas ... assuming that even those ideals reside anywhere beyond our flawed human imaginations) Human beings are human. That includes Zen and other Buddhist teachers, no less.

    What matters most is what we do with those flaws in life, how we live as human beings ... with a bit of grace, ease, non-attachment, wholeness, peace, at-oneness and sincerity, great Compassion and Loving Kindness toward our fellow flawed beings. Practice does not remove all our human rough spots, but it allows a wild and imperfect stone to be imperfect (perfectly imperfect) yet simultaneously material to be polished into a jewel ... so many rough edges made soft and round. The Precepts are a guide for constant moment-to-moment practice in "not falling down". One cannot polish a tile into a Buddha ... but the constant polishing is Buddha.

    Yet, despite the roundness and polishing, some rough edges may remain. All human beings have the tendency to fall down from time to time, some more than others.

    It is a fallacy to think that Zen priests are ever completely free, during this life, from being human. In any large group of people ... whether Zen priests, other Buddhist, Christian or Jewish priests and clergy of all kinds ... there will always be examples of greed, anger and ignorance. Furthermore, in the lifetime of any one individual ... even among the best of us ... there are sure to be moments of greed, anger and ignorance.

    But our Practice does, more often than not, free us from the worst. It makes us better people. (In fact, most clergy I have met ... not just Buddhist clergy, but of all religions ... are good, caring, ethical people, the bad apples aside). Most of the Zen teachers I have met ... especially those with a few years and some maturity under their belt ... tend to be lovely, gentle, well rounded, self-actuated, moderate, compassionate, healthy people - balanced, living life with fullness and well.

    What is more, a teacher can be 95% good, wise and decent, a caring and profound minister ... yet have a proclivity in the remaining 5% that is an inner devil. The fact is that being a Buddhist teacher has not allowed many to avoid getting led around by the "little Buddha" in their pants sometimes, getting involved in sex scandals. There have been several modern Buddhist masters with addiction issues. I do not know of any case of child abuse involving a modern Zen or other Buddhist teacher ... but I would not be shocked if there ever was such a scandal. I know of Zen teachers who have punched other Zen teachers, or momentarily "lost it" and taken to an instant of violence.

    The question is whether the 95% that embodies Wisdom and Compassion is completely canceled and nullified by the 5% which is an ass and a human fool. Certainly, if the 5% is serious enough (child abuse as seen among some rabbis and priests is certainly an example, as are other acts of violence or truly malicious conduct), I say it does, certainly. (In fact, while recognizing that even the victimizer is too a victim of beginingless greed, anger, ignorance ... toss the worst of them in a cell, and throw away the key!). On the other hand, if what is seen is a relatively minor human weakness or failing ... I say it does not. What is more, it may make the teacher an even greater teacher because of his/her humanity.

    In other words, I would rather learn about some things from a fellow weak and fragile human being wrestling, right now, with Mara than from a stone Buddha statue, a Dharma machine, a Flawless Saint (although how many of those long dead saints and ancestors in religious hagiographic story books, their lives cleaned up and dipped in gold and set on a pedestal after their deaths, were truly so flawless during their flesh and blood lives?).

    In our Zen practice we taste a realm beyond all desire ... beyond "we" ... a view by which there is nothing lacking, so no base or object for greed ... where all hate, longing and despair evaporate, all swept away in peace and wholeness. There is such Liberation, and it can be known by anyone who follows this Way of Zen.

    But so long as we are human beings ... whether an 80 year old man or a child of age 3 ... we must also live in this ordinary realm of flesh and blood, its sometime desire ... a world where "you" and "me" are separate too, where we may feel lack and greed ... subject to anger, longing and times of despair. So long as we are in this world ... so-called "Zen Master" or not ... we cannot escape fully the realm of Samsara (even if, ultimately, there is no other to stumble into, no place we can fall).

    All human beings have the tendency to fall down from time to time. I guess it is just a matter of what the person does then ... picking themselves up, recovering balance, getting back on the trail, apologizing and learning from any damage caused. Like any great athlete, the point is not that we never get knocked around, never trip or stumble ... but how we handle the fall (as in the martial arts ... there is no training offered on how to never fall, but endless training on how to fall well). Show me the man or woman who falls down sometimes ... but who demonstrates how to fall well and recover one's footing ... and I will show you a great Zen teacher.

    Gassho, J

    __________________________________________________ ___

    PS - This is why we cannot neglect the Precepts in this Practice ... which, while recognizing that we may fail to abide by them sometimes, yet point toward harmless, healthful and beneficial actions toward our self and other selfs (not two). We must keep our aim in this Practice, not just on personal suffering, but on Compassion toward others and "saving all sentient beings".

    PPS - I so much agree with what someone wrote on another thread ...

    However, that doesn't mean that all teachers with personal issues are good teachers. And just because something a teacher told us sounded good at the time, made us feel inspired, doesn't mean it was right. We believe a lot of dumb things because they feel good to believe. There are a lot of words that make us feel good. And words that may be true in theory can be false when the person who pronounces them does not embody them.
    Yes. it is not sweet words that matter ... but actions and actual behavior.
    Last edited by Jundo; 10-29-2013 at 03:20 AM.

  2. #2
    Stephanie
    Guest

    Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IX

    I think there's a difference between a teacher who behaves in ways that are harmful to him/herself, mildly harmful to others, moderately harmful to others, unintentionally harmful to others, intentionally harmful to others / exploitative. I don't think we can throw all of these into the same bowl and just label them "human foibles." I personally think the worst of these offenses is any sort of exploitation of students / abuse of power. One teacher drinks, another teacher manipulates student fealty into performing free labor / generating income for him... two different beasts, IMO.

    In terms of the sort of flaw that would cause me to judge a teacher's realization, I would say dishonesty is at the top of the list. For me, one of a teacher's foremost duties is to the truth. I'm not talking about a mild "skillful means" white lie not to offend, etc., but intentional misrepresentation, pronouncing teachings that a teacher does not follow in his/her life, etc. It is very easy to parrot and even to generate clever sounding words or beautiful language. But I've found over time what once seemed a jewel of wisdom had something subtly twisted to it, and I saw that it wasn't the good teaching I thought it was.

    For example, there was one Zen blog I used to read where the writer seemed somewhat wise. But something seemed "off." Finally, I put a finger on it: every single thing this person wrote had to do with making others feel shame. Constant focus on who isn't really getting Buddhism, who's doing it wrong. Magnifying people's petty foibles to make it seem like natural human emotions are evil. As soon as I picked up on this thread, what used to seem like good teaching suddenly appeared as it really was: rotten, harmful, false. And this is someone who preached about honoring the good in all people.

    In summary, I don't need a teacher to be perfect, but I do steer clear of "teachers" who are dishonest, exploitative, shame-based, etc.

  3. #3

    Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IX

    Jundo, thanks for explaining that. My flaws and rough spots must have been branded on my consciousness and they always pop up at the worst times. I'm grateful for my practice and the teachers

  4. #4
    Senior Member Kent's Avatar
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    Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IX

    Thank you Jundo. I know how to fall, that's for sure. ops: I need to learn to "fall well". Gassho Kent

  5. #5
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IX

    I like Jundo metaphor of a bus. Being a teacher is not really a question of choice, at least not for me, it is a reality and a call that put you in the position of teaching. My flaws? Many, I am working on them and getting better as time goes. Is it age, being too busy to be able to act foolishly or just practice?...But it is much less messy. Again and again I wnat to say that one should follow not the teacher but what the teacher follows. And not get caught in a guru to disciple relationship, in other words, no worship whatsoever.

    gassho

    Taigu

    PS And Mineko has no black belt but a great temper :lol:

  6. #6

    Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IX

    Hi.

    Some dubious people with little real spiritual training call themselves teachers, but actually take advantage of others in the name of taking care of peace of mind. This is unfortunate. It happens because, when it comes to spirituality, people are still very gullible.
    -His holiness the Dalai Lama, imagine all the people

    Important point?
    But do not forget the question "what is a teacher?", it is equally important...

    And in regards to the bus, which is more important, the wheels or the steering wheel?

    Mtfbwy
    "untenshu" Fugen

    Ps Emma doesnt have an black belt, but she struck me down the first time we met...

  7. #7

  8. #8

    Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IX

    Yeah, I think zen master also human too.

    Eventhough, reallity is just as it is, but it doesn't mean that we let anger, greedy, and ignorance control us.

    So, if some one said, "just as it is", so just let my anger, greedy, ignorance just as it is. This is wrong.

    That's why, we must keep the precept in our daily life.

    Gassho, Mujo

  9. #9

    Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Shui_Di
    Yeah, I think zen master also human too.

    Eventhough, reallity is just as it is, but it doesn't mean that we let anger, greedy, and ignorance control us.

    So, if some one said, "just as it is", so just let my anger, greedy, ignorance just as it is. This is wrong.

    That's why, we must keep the precept in our daily life.

    Gassho, Mujo
    Shui Di hits the heart of the matter.

  10. #10

    Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IX

    Gassho...

    On the subject of falling down-

    Some may have noticed that I haven't posted in a while. I've only visited the forum a few times in the last month or so. I haven't sat but once in the last 30 days.

    A couple nights ago, after a bitter and loud argument between myself and my 13 yr old stepson, over behavior I did not find acceptable, my wife and I ended up in the bedroom talking about how far things had deteriorated in the last few weeks between her son and me. She pointed out that things were so much better back when I was taking the time to do zazen every day. I let things roll off that recently were causing arguments.

    My stepson probably has a bit of ADD, but despite tentative diagnoses by three different counselors a few years ago, when he was 4-8 yrs old, we decided to not medicate him. I think it was the right decision, but it is difficult sometimes to separate his willful testing from behavior he has no control over.

    Anyway, the next day I consciously took a different approach with him, trying to remember my Zen self, and it was beautiful. When he started to act out a little, I went with it, played along, acted his age instead of ridiculing and demeaning his behavior. The situation never got tense, or out of hand. He moved on to something else, calmed down.

    My wife and I looked at each other and smiled.

    That was the point where I got back up.

    Zen has taken me miles beyond anything else spiritual in my life. It is hard sometimes, but I hope I can be here consistently, and be well most of the time.

    Gassho,
    tobi

  11. #11

    Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IX

    Thanks, Tob.

    We stumble (although no place to fall), we get back up again.

    Gassho, J

  12. #12

    Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobiishi
    Anyway, the next day I consciously took a different approach with him, trying to remember my Zen self, and it was beautiful.
    Children are a great gate to the dharma. Mine know all my buttons intimately and are not hesitant to use them. Sometimes I prepare for a full day, practicing really deeply, before a specific interaction with them. Thank you to children everywhere. :-)

  13. #13

    Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IX

    Thinking about this, I found I had to Wikipedify the term 'Roshi' and along with the defintition was a much clearer version of my intended point:

    Stuart Lachs has argued that Zen institutions in the West have often attributed a mythic status to the title R?shi with harmful consequences:

    "The idea and ritual of Dharma transmission rather than the meaning or content of that transmission, becomes the prominent and meaningful fact. Zen elevates its leaders to super-human status, then emphasizes that we should be obedient and subservient to a powerful and supremely accomplished authority figure, precisely because he is powerful and supremely accomplished. Is it any wonder that the inevitable abuses that we have seen for the last thirty years should follow?"
    I'm not sure what more experienced treeleafers would make of the bold section, I'm sure it happens but I'm not sure that it is something that 'Zen' does. In my mind it's something that springs from another human trait - the tendency (need?) for hero worship and to identify with the 'team' of one particular hero. I'm not condoning or excusing any abuses of position, but I can well imagine how someone with a '5% Inner Devil' can go quite spectacularly off the rails when their day to day life is framed by devotees hanging on their every word, while someone with exactly the same '5% Inner Devil' can do no damage at all if they are running a Beginners Sitting Class whose numbers have dwindled to 3 on a rainy Wednesday night. Like the comic book said: "with great power must come great responsibility".

    Gassho,
    Michael

  14. #14
    Stephanie
    Guest

    Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IX

    Good points, Michael. It's always a two-way street. A teacher may have an inclination to want his/her ego stroked, but students may have an inclination to find someone to put up on a pedestal and will project a lot onto a teacher. A lot of parent issues and primal feelings come out in regard to teachers and authority figures. Lord knows I've experienced some wacky psychological shit of my own when it comes to how I've seen or related to teachers. As a teacher, it would sometimes be hard to resist the powerful feelings and projections of students, I imagine.

  15. #15

    Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IX

    by Stephanie on Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:24 pm
    I've experienced some wacky psychological shit
    ...all of which can be compost for growing your practice.

    Tom

  16. #16
    disastermouse
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    Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IX

    Quote Originally Posted by Yellow Pine
    by Stephanie on Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:24 pm
    I've experienced some wacky psychological shit
    ...all of which can be compost for growing your practice.

    Tom
    Interesting image...but are we death eaters? What is it we are fertilizing? Again, interesting image - used a lot in Zen but what does it mean?

    Chet

  17. #17
    Senior Member kirkmc's Avatar
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    Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IX

    I'm impressed to see that people have what they see as answers to this sort of question. Things like this make me think, and question the questions, but I'm at a loss to come up with a position that I think is right...

  18. #18

    Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IX

    Chet: Interesting image...but are we death eaters? What is it we are fertilizing? Again, interesting image - used a lot in Zen but what does it mean?
    Use what you have...as opposed to not using what you have. We are fertilizing mindfulness.

    Are we death eaters? I would bet on it.

    Tom

  19. #19

    Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IX (Bad Roshis)

    Someone commented on this topic in another Buddhist forum, on the letter from the 'Gang of 66' to Genpo ... and I wrote the following ...

    Quote Originally Posted by COMMENTATOR

    Deep down we want to think that people who have been transmitted to are operating on some deeper level... and we twist and turn trying to work out how they could be teachers, or that they have a "true Dharma eye", or that we are all not perfect, or that we shouldn't judge them, or any of the other explanations this thread has entertained... But I don't think anyone wants to even think about the possibility that they could be enlightend... passed all those koans AND simultaneously just simply... not... care.
    This comes, in my view, from a deep misunderstanding of what it means to have "True Dharma Eye", to have passed all the Koans, be profound Insight, Kensho, Satori, Enlightenment and all the rest. Zen students have been sold a bill of goods.

    And I say that without, in any way, diminishing or casting aspersions upon what is this "True Dharma Eye" and all the rest. There is a Treasure which need not be bought or sold, the Pearl Beyond Price.

    Both at once, at one. How so?

    The old stories sure leave readers with the impression that once one "becomes enlightened" the work is done, all obstructions are removed, the Eye is Clear, all psychological issues are erradicated, all moral failings purified, one can never fall down (not only because "there is not place to fall", but because one becomes in'fall'ible). This comes from hagiographic tales of old dead guys in the worshipful stories being written and rewritten by fans, each Patriarch dipped in gold and polished up into a "Perfect Being". [Stuart Lachs (although way overstating his case, as usual) makes the same point in a recent paper on this process with two modern masters ...

    http://www.hsuyun.org/chan/docs/ENGLISH ... rching.pdf ]

    Well, in fact, such a "Dipped in Gold, Pearl Beyond Price" description of "enlightenment" is fully right. It is also half right. Both at once, not two (a Koan, not a particularly tricky one either).

    An instantaneous instant of enlightenment realized is all the world's work done, all obstructions are removed, the Eye is Clear. It is just as it is billed to be. As the little "self" is dropped away, all conflict flows released in intimacy, all psychological issues are resolved, all moral failings purified (for there is nothing to steal or do violence to, no separate one to take or do violence), one can never fall down as there is no separate place to fall.

    The Bodhisattva rises from the lotus or Zafu, completely a different being from before (what "before"?). 'Cept, of course, to the degree that he or she is the same schmuck as before. One is One Beyond One and Whole beyond Big and Small ... one is still just a small human. No conflict there in the least (AND IF YA THINK THERE IS ANY CONFLICT THERE OR EVER WAS, YA NEVER HAD THE 'TRUE DHARMA EYE', NOT EVEN IN YOUR DREAMS).

    For this reason, Soto folks speak of Practice-Enlightenment (most schools of Zen express this in some similar way too ... after the Ecstasy and Purity, the laundry of Wisdom and Compassion to be daily washed ... ), in which one is already Buddha ... as well as on the train heading to Buddha ... realizing (making real) Buddha or Mara through each good/bad choice and each step/misstep in life ... getting better and better at it all through life (or lifetimes), yet ever arrived and complete nonetheless. (AND IF YA THINK THERE IS ANY CONFLICT THERE OR EVER WAS, YA NEVER HAD THE 'TRUE DHARMA EYE', NOT EVEN IN YOUR DREAMS).

    Thus, "enlightenment" fully and completely evaporates all psychological issues and all moral failings, no place to fall down not safely in Indra's Net. Thus hand-in-hand, so long as we (Dharma Teachers too) retain this human form so precious, vowing to save all Sentient Beings, some psychological issues and moral failings may remain, we may sometimes stumble and fall down. Such is what is to be human. In fact, for a Bodhisattva to remain in the muddy Saha world is a damn good thing. Here is what I usually say when these stories come up ...

    All human beings have the tendency to fall down from time to time. A Zen Teacher, guided by the Precepts, Wisdom and Compassion, should be expected to have more skill and experience in avoiding life's temptations and pitfalls ... they should be expected not to fall down easily, not to yield to life's temptations too easily. But Buddhist "Masters" are yet flesh and blood, and only perfect in their human imperfection. (Beware of any "guru" who claims to be so far beyond humanity that they are now beyond all possible falling).

    In my view, any human being can fall down, and it is just a matter of what the person does then ... picking themselves up, recovering balance, getting back on the trail, apologizing and learning from any damage caused. The real "Master" should much more --rarely-- fall down but, even more impressively, should show true "mastery" in getting back up if she does. Like any great athlete or dancer, the point is not that we never get knocked around, never trip or stumble ... but how we handle the fall (as in the martial arts ... there is no training offered on how to never fall, but endless training on how to fall well). Show me the man or woman who falls down sometimes ... but who demonstrates how to fall well and recover one's footing ... and I will show you a great Zen "Master".

    On the other hand, beware of any purported "master" who falls down again and again ... or harms his students again and again ... or who tries to recover from falling down mostly concerned about covering his own ass . This, in my mind, is what makes the difference between, for example, a "master" who may have fallen at some time in life into an affair, or a drinking and gambling problem that he or she recovers from ... and those that repeat the behavior again and again over many years. (That, in my mind, appears to be the difference between such cases and Genpo "Roshi" and Eido "Roshi" who seem to have repeated their harmful behavior over decades).

    If I may add my own "test" for finding a teacher, I would say find a man or woman who sometimes (though rarely) falls down, makes mistakes, makes a donkey's ass of him or herself... and observe closely what happens, watch how he or she does it. Oh, don't get me wrong... probably you do not want as a teacher someone who falls down each and every day, nor someone who falls down too BIG (robbing banks, lying profusely and intentionally starting fires, for example). No, I mean someone who... every so often, now and then, like everyone... makes a fool of him/herself, loses his Zen Master cool, over-indulges, does a real face-flop, says something she regrets, breaks some (hopefully not too big) Precepts in some very human way.

    How does this person recover their balance? With what grace do they fall or, at least, get back up on their feet? Do they profoundly reflect on their mistakes, learn from them, apologize sincerely to anyone hurt (hopefully not too badly) ... and move on? As a matter of fact, since this crazy practice is greatly about living with some grace in this imperfect, often disappointing, trap and temptation filled world, a teacher with a couple of serious imperfections may be a good guide on how to avoid, lessen or escape the worst of it!

    Oh, I am not trying to excuse any truly heinous abuses or scandals which have been seen among clergy of all traditions, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist no less (not these "Zen teachers" who keep on with their harmful behavior year in and year out). NOT AT ALL! I have little tolerance for members of the clergy who abuse their positions of trust and hurt others, sometimes children. But also we must be cautious of anyone who wants to be our teacher by telling us that they are beyond all failings, never ever break a Precept (not even the small ones), are "Perfectly Enlightened Beings" who never trip and fall down. I'll believe it when I see it!

    Certainly, it is true that within Enlightenment, there is no place to fall, nothing which can be a mistake. Yet, in this world of Samsara where we live, I do not think there is anyone who gets away always without cuts and bruises and difficult days. (Anyone who thinks that Zen practice is going to ensure that they never have another "bad day" is in for a bad surprise. Whether we fully "drop good and bad" or not, we must live in a world sometimes real good and real bad.) Sure, this "self" is but an illusion... and so are all the other "selfs" in this world, but we are going to bump and bang into each other sometimes nonetheless. The hole you stumble in may be like a dream, and ultimately there is no place to fall. But fall into that hole and break your imaginary leg, you may!
    AND IF YA THINK THERE IS ANY CONFLICT THERE OR EVER WAS, YA NEVER HAD THE 'TRUE DHARMA EYE', NOT EVEN IN YOUR DREAMS!

    (if anyone wants to hear a perfectly imperfect talk by me on the subject) ...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOCcuOx64Ck[/video]]

    More here:

    viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2074

    Gassho, Jundo

  20. #20
    Senior Member Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    I like Jundo metaphor of a bus. Being a teacher is not really a question of choice, at least not for me, it is a reality and a call that put you in the position of teaching. My flaws? Many, I am working on them and getting better as time goes. Is it age, being too busy to be able to act foolishly or just practice?...But it is much less messy. Again and again I wnat to say that one should follow not the teacher but what the teacher follows. And not get caught in a guru to disciple relationship, in other words, no worship whatsoever.

    gassho

    Taigu

    PS And Mineko has no black belt but a great temper :lol:
    Very helpful
    Gassho C

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