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Thread: Personality cults and fundamentalism

  1. #51
    Senior Member Shonin's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    sorry been forever since I've seen the movie. don't get it.

    But that is farrrrr nicer than the post full of pure belligerency i deleted. That one made chet look like one of the friendlier foks here.

    Dave _/_

  2. #52

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    This thread is offering a great teaching to many of us on tolerance and open mindedness ... although not perhaps in the manner originally intended ...

    We all need to work with this "I can't stand", so this is a great opportunity for us too. It takes two to "I can't stand" ... the stand-er and the stand-ee. Both have control of the standing in this case of "I can't stand". So, even as we cooly and calmly object to this or that situation ... even as we may protest what may be something worth speaking up about (I do that all the time, because there are many things in this world worth caring about) ... be and find the stillness and acceptance within you of the situation. Don't be "I can't stand" even as someone stands on your foot. We should not even "I can't stand" this "I can't stand" itself!

    ... open the hand of thought, and let "I can't stand" go ...

    Gassho, J

  3. #53

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    sorry been forever since I've seen the movie. don't get it.
    There's a part in the movie that is exactly like what you said. He's dressed in a monkey costume at a photo shoot and someone saying "DANCE DEREK! DANCE MONKEY! DANCE!"

    The other part of my post is another quote from the movie. I thought that's where you got it from.

    sidenote: Thanks for the post Jundo.

    Gassho

    W

  4. #54
    Senior Member Shonin's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    No I was just thinking of dancing monkeys as tools of entertainment.

    Dave _/_

  5. #55

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    I've been debating whether or not to post here...

    I'm generally a non-confrontational person. In my experience, in order for a confrontation to have a positive result, I believe at least the following conditions need to be present:

    Both parties must:
    • 1. Bring a clarity of perception to the confrontation
      2. Practice sensitivity and accuracy in all communications
      3. Be unattached to their own point of view (ie. be willing to change their own mind)


    These conditions are so difficult to meet, especially when the confrontation involves intense emotions, that I rarely engage in confrontation. I don't know if this is from a fear of the often damaging negative external results -- hurt feelings, damaged relationships, entrenched viewpoints, etc. -- that come from confrontations where the above conditions are not present, or if it's from a desire to avoid the negative internal results -- anger, frustration, fear, physical tension, etc -- that come from confrontations with negative results.

    Interestingly, though I have played no direct role in this thread, I have felt all of those negative internal results as I've read through it day over day.

    So, I want simply to say THANK YOU to all who have participated on this thread. You have all given me a wonderful opportunity to practice with these negative results. As I read and feel them, I watch them. Then, as Jundo said, I take them to the zafu and practice letting them go. Deepest gassho to you all for your honesty here, and for providing this opportunity for me to practice with some difficult (for me) emotions.

    Gassho,
    Kevin

  6. #56

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    No I was just thinking of dancing monkeys as tools of entertainment.
    That is also related to the reference in the movie. I think it's just a relatively known Colloquialism.

    Gassho

  7. #57

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Tobi, well I see how your explanation is quite valid in scientific terms. But are we sure ( with plenty of proof dated and categorized by approved researchers in the field) that the invisibility is even in fact light based as opposed to a form of invisibility where it renders our minds incapable of processing it's pressence. Like a form of brain washing...psychic camoflage even.
    I thought about referencing all the peer-reviewed articles I've written on this very subject, and posting a couple of videos I recorded at my home where Stephen Hawking and I chatted about invisibility and the possible quantum implications of super-tiny singularities, and then further stunning your imperious doubting mind with the solid fact of the letter hanging in a frame on my wall here, signed by Ross Perot, in which he states unequivocally that "I don't see no damn pink unicorn... what's that smell?"

    But then I thought, you know what? Dave doesn't need all that, 'cause Dave's a reasonable and level-headed kind of guy. All I really have to do is point out that of all the different living creatures, both human and not, who obviously cannot see my pink unicorn, the one that proves it's not "brainwashing" is Hector, the invisible turkey-buzzard. If one invisible animal cannot see another invisible animal... I mean, what more do you need?

    (don't feel bad, everyone gets their precious illusions dashed bleeding and shattered to the cruel asphalt once in a while)

    gassho
    tobi

  8. #58

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    This thread is offering a great teaching to many of us on tolerance and open mindedness ... although not perhaps in the manner originally intended ...

    We all need to work with this "I can't stand", so this is a great opportunity for us too. It takes two to "I can't stand" ... the stand-er and the stand-ee. Both have control of the standing in this case of "I can't stand". So, even as we cooly and calmly object to this or that situation ... even as we may protest what may be something worth speaking up about (I do that all the time, because there are many things in this world worth caring about) ... be and find the stillness and acceptance within you of the situation. Don't be "I can't stand" even as someone stands on your foot. We should not even "I can't stand" this "I can't stand" itself!

    ... open the hand of thought, and let "I can't stand" go ...

    Gassho, J

    I hear you.

    Gassho,
    Eika

  9. #59

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Hi Kevin Solway,
    I just watched your videos and read most of the comments here. A little overwhelming. I was wondering if you would be willing to just put down all of your opinions and join in a future discussion here that relates you in a more personal way to Buddhist thinking. For me it has always been my neurotic thinking and delusion which has gotten in the way of world peace.

    Regards,
    Rich

    ps your videos are very professionally produced

  10. #60

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    I wrote a little about cults here. http://progressivebuddhism.blogspot.com ... dhism.html

    "Somebody give Dave a Xanex"...priceless. LOL

  11. #61

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu
    Anyway, take great care and please, try to listen to these distant voices trying to reach your original face through the thick veil of certainty.

    A bit of poetry, a walk in the woods, playing with children...
    Simply beautiful, Taigu. Thank you. And thank you to everyone for this great teaching and opportunity to practice.

    Gassho, Jean

  12. #62

  13. #63
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    By the way, Kevin why don't you start a rakusu? I really mean it, if you have some time to loose just go and read the posts about sewing

    viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1968&p=28273#p28273

    take care,
    gassho


    Taigu

  14. #64

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Reformed_Buddha
    I very much appreciate the quotation you gave:

    “Be a light unto yourself, betake yourselves to no external refuge. Hold fast to the Truth. Look not for refuge to anyone but yourselves.”

    I think the whole idea of "protectors", such as Dorje Shugden, or Mahakala, or whatever, is a very dangerous path to go down - and is so often fatal for the weak-minded. And who, today, is not weak-minded?

  15. #65

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich
    Hi Kevin Solway,
    I just watched your videos and read most of the comments here. A little overwhelming. I was wondering if you would be willing to just put down all of your opinions and join in a future discussion here that relates you in a more personal way to Buddhist thinking. For me it has always been my neurotic thinking and delusion which has gotten in the way of world peace.
    I don't think it's possible for a person to put-down all the opinions that they have fought long and hard to attain. But I can certainly put aside my opinions of the Dalai Lama to talk about other things. What did you have in mind? I'm happy to discuss anything to do with Buddhism, or how I relate to it.

  16. #66
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    I don't think it's possible for a person to put-down all the opinions that they have fought long and hard to attain
    Hi Kevin,

    That's precisely what the practice of sitting is about, and Buddhism. How can you relate to Buddhism if you are not prepared to put down opinions?
    The idea of protectors is indeed a very dangerous path if ypou take it litteraly, in an exoteric way. Of course, once you sit, you come appreciate the quality of some metaphors... And sometimes people invent some fancy protectors: twenty years of hard work, great experience of what is true...Very dangerous too for they speak in the name of a self which has not been worked on.

    Please, don't worry that much about the people being weak-minded, do the homework and look at the confusion we all share.

    And thank you for your voice today, it sounds gentle and opened.

    gassho

    Taigu

  17. #67

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu
    I don't think it's possible for a person to put-down all the opinions that they have fought long and hard to attain
    That's precisely what the practice of sitting is about, and Buddhism.
    Taigu, you are assuming that all opinions are mistaken. But if all opinions are mistaken then your opinion that all opinions are mistaken is itself mistaken. So there's an obvious problem with that approach.

    In fact, not all opinions are mistaken.

    How can you relate to Buddhism if you are not prepared to put down opinions?
    The only opinions that need to be put down are wrong opinions, such as your opinion about my opinions.

    And thank you for your voice today, it sounds gentle and opened.
    You'll find that I'm always gentle and open, but sometimes appear in my Mahakala aspect. :-)

  18. #68

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    I have to laugh when I hear the Dalai Lama say that he is against Shugden worship because it is a kind of spirit worship.

    And yet he says that Dorje Shugden has shortened his life, and is responsible for schisms. Ha!

    I really think he hasn't a clue. If his own life has been shortened it is because of his own failings, and nobody else. And if there are schisms, then the reasons are many and varied, and delusion plays a big part.

    Look down at your own feet.

  19. #69
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    hi Kevin,

    There is an obvious problem, if you alllow me to express it, in toying with the language and twisting words in a witty way in order to make a point, this is plain rhetoric.

    The dropping of all views is not my opinion, it is shinjin datsu raku, body and mind dropped off, it is the teaching of Buddha, Nagarjuna, all ancestors, even the teaching of trees, birds, rain, stones, cars, plastic bags and stuff that has no Buddhism, god, demons or right and wrong to play with. It is the just sitting of our tradition where you will have difficulty to find any opinion at all. In this space, everything is accepted as it is, nothing is rejected. Your or my likes and dislikes come to nothing in that space. Views and opinions too. Gone, swept away or totally integrated, which is the same.
    That's what I am pointing at and that's also why it is wise to let go of any form of hostility even in front of blind superstition. The teaching of the Buddha means to bring this mind of equanimity to the market place. And the best answer is to first look at what we can do something about: our own atttachment to views and opinions.

    take care


    gassho


    Taigu

  20. #70

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu
    It is the just sitting of our tradition where you will have difficulty to find any opinion at all. In this space, everything is accepted as it is, nothing is rejected.
    I see very clearly that what you mean by "opinions" is in fact "delusions".

    And so when you say that I have "opinions" you are in fact stating your (deluded) belief that I am deluded.

    But not everyone uses words in that manner, and I certainly don't.

    I say that there are deluded opinions and non-deluded opinions. There are deluded views and then there is the enlightened view. That's the way I personally use language, and I while I don't expect you to follow my good example in the usage of language, it should give you a key to understanding what I'm saying.

    That's what I am pointing at and that's also why it is wise to let go of any form of hostility even in front of blind superstition.
    I think the hostility is a creation of your mind. In reality, I'm just speaking the truth. It sounds harsh to the ears if one is not used to hearing the truth spoken so simply and accurately.

    I don't blame the Dalai Lama for anything he's doing, since he has absolutely no choice about anything he does - like a runaway train full of passengers.

  21. #71

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Kevin, you have become like a living breathing "Tolerance Koan".

    You should listen a bit more to what many voices are saying to you.

    Gassho, J

  22. #72

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Kevin, you have become like a living breathing "Tolerance Koan".
    You lot are a tolerance koan for me! :-)

  23. #73
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Hi Kevin,

    You sound perfectly happy about the way you convey your enlightened opinion. You seem very convinced that your eyes are open to a great many fundamental truths of which the Dalai Lama knows nothing.. What you are telling us is that you are speaking the truth. Do I understand you well?

    If I do, allow me not to agree: what you put forward, your own self, and the excellent use of the language which is yours, have nothing in common with what I practice. You happily describe yourself as non-denominational Buddhist and this in itself is maybe the core of the problem, without specific guidance and help, solitary practice or plain speculation can do so much harm. Longtime study, respectable age and intellectual skills have nothing to do with the truth. The truth is not something you have opinions about or use to make opinions and judgements. This is the ABC of my tradition. The kindergarden is the best place for you, Kevin. So much more enjoyable. Children, woods, simple things...I would be very glad to meet you there. It is my favorite spot... beginners mind.

    take care

    gassho


    Taigu

  24. #74

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu
    Do I understand you well?
    No, you don't understand me well, but yes, I do speak the truth.

    If I do, allow me not to agree: what you put forward, your own self, and the excellent use of the language which is yours, have nothing in common with what I practice.
    That's fine. Then you must go on your own way.

    But my humble suggestion is that if you're going to attempt to find faults, and to communicate those to others, you'll have to learn to do a lot better than "You are deluded".

    LIke firing a shotgun in the dark, you might hit your target from time to time, but it's not to be recommended.

    You happily describe yourself as non-denominational Buddhist and this in itself is maybe the core of the problem, without specific guidance and help, solitary practice or plain speculation can do so much harm.
    It's good that you qualified your statement with "maybe", since this is just a bit of vague insinuating.

    Non-denominational Buddhists can have denominational gurus. They can also have non-denominational gurus. And they can even have non-Buddhist gurus.

    Now that's a tolerance koan.

    The truth is not something you have opinions about or use to make opinions and judgements.
    Here again you are using the word "opinions" to mean "delusions", so what you are really saying is "The truth is not something you have delusions about", which I think is a rather silly statement. But it's your choice, so don't let me stop you.

    This is the ABC of my tradition.
    I sincerely hope not!

  25. #75

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Solway
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich
    Hi Kevin Solway,
    I just watched your videos and read most of the comments here. A little overwhelming. I was wondering if you would be willing to just put down all of your opinions and join in a future discussion here that relates you in a more personal way to Buddhist thinking. For me it has always been my neurotic thinking and delusion which has gotten in the way of world peace.
    I don't think it's possible for a person to put-down all the opinions that they have fought long and hard to attain. But I can certainly put aside my opinions of the Dalai Lama to talk about other things. What did you have in mind? I'm happy to discuss anything to do with Buddhism, or how I relate to it.
    I would like to discuss my practice and maybe you can share a little about your practice. I do have opinions, ideas, thoughts and feelings about the Dalai Lama and rebirth and the myriad other things but they are not essential to my practice of just sitting, just letting them go in my everyday life. So in this very moment I am not dependent on them nor feel a need to defend them. I'm not saying that they don't constantly arise and I certainly give some of them much consideration but my practice is letting them go and the sitting time is good for this but the standing, walking , lying time is good also. I pay a lot of attention to correct posture, and I agree with Nishijima Roshi that reality is just action. Maybe I've said too much, what do you do?
    /Rich

  26. #76

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich
    what do you do?
    My body does whatever it wants to do. And just as it breathes without any additional effort required, so does it make videos and say whatever it does.

    That's what "sitting" means to me. It means to "sit" with what is natural, rather than to create unnecessary complications from the conceptual realm.

    It's like in a game of cards, when you have the perfect hand you say, "sit", because you don't want any more. More is less.

  27. #77

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    But my humble suggestion is that if you're going to attempt to find faults, and to communicate those to others, you'll have to learn to do a lot better than "You are deluded".
    No one is attempting to find any faults. We all wear our faults right on our noses, just like you. Perhaps "You are deluded" is the best starting point, if you have not yet accepted the truth of it.

    Mu.
    -Tobiishi

    tobi barks back
    sitting in the shrubbery
    twiddling thumbs
    rubbing incense into the dirt.

    earth gave way
    and the dog is the wisest.

    gassho

  28. #78
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Kevin,


    My body does whatever it wants to do. And just as it breathes without any additional effort required, so does it make videos and say whatever it does.

    That's what "sitting" means to me. It means to "sit" with what is natural, rather than to create unnecessary complications from the conceptual realm.

    It's like in a game of cards, when you have the perfect hand you say, "sit", because you don't want any more. More is less.

    Ok. This answer is dead clear... Call it a day with me, Kevin.

    I am deluded: best starting point for all of us, yes... thank you Tobiishi.

    Happy Jihad


    gassho

    Taigu

  29. #79

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Solway
    That's what "sitting" means to me. It means to "sit" with what is natural, rather than to create unnecessary complications from the conceptual realm.
    Hi, Kevin.

    http://www.theabsolute.net/minefield/index.html

    A perusal of your website suggests to me that you are a person who cherishes his opinions (most often about Truth). So, I've little hope that I can change your mind about anything. I will say that I see just as much unTruth on your website as you claim the Dalai Lama is responsible for supporting. For instance:

    -Woman: a biped with two hands, two feet, two breasts, two eyes and two faces.

    - A woman has three reasons for everything she does: the reason she says she has, the reason she thinks she has, and the reason she really has.

    - I will not say that women have no character, rather, they have a new one every day.

    - I've never met a man of good character who has had anything to do with a woman.


    There is so much time spent on your site discussing the Genius (always male), women and the feminization of the modern world. He protesteth too much, methinks. You have a litany of opinions about what is True and unTrue. It reads like the manifesto of a madman . . . who can have this many opinions?!!

    My advice as a Buddhist: LET ALL OF THIS STUFF GO. Have opinions but do not cherish them. And, if you really want to discuss Buddhism/Zen then SIT, SIT, SIT, otherwise it is like an argument about music between a musician and a music critic . . . the epistemological gulf between them prevents them from even understanding each other's questions.

    Gassho from a fellow man of flaws,
    Eika

  30. #80

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu
    Happy Jihad
    Happy Jihad?

    That's a bit passive-agressive, don't you think?

  31. #81

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Eika
    who can have this many opinions?!!
    The Buddha himself had a great many opinions.

    And his opinion on women coincides very closely with my own.

    For example, from "The Ultimate extinction of the Dharma sutra":

    "When the Dharma is about to disappear, women will become vigorous
    and will at all times do deeds of virtue. Men will grow lax and will no
    longer speak the Dharma."

    "Good persons will be hard to find; at most there will be one or two.
    Men will die younger, and women will live longer."

    LET ALL OF THIS STUFF GO.
    So are you going to tell the Buddha to let go of all of his opinions about women too?

    Have opinions but do not cherish them.
    This "cherishing" is only your speculation. You''re welcome to speculate, but remember that that's all it is.

  32. #82

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Solway
    So are you going to tell the Buddha to let go of all of his opinions about women too?
    Have opinions but do not cherish them.
    This "cherishing" is only your speculation. You''re welcome to speculate, but remember that that's all it is.
    Appeal to authority. And, Buddha lived (if at all) 2500 years ago when a great many things were different, including the role of women. Besides, the Buddha might have been wrong about a thing or two, and/or he may have different things to say if he were teaching today.

    Also, of course I'm speculating . . . and? If we go down that road, all debate becomes argument.

    I have no desire to argue points on any of this, I merely question your motivation.
    I think there is enough evidence on your website that you are defending an image of yourself as one of the übermensch geniuses that you so admire. You love a particular kind of thinker and fancy yourself one too. OK, cool. I fancy myself a few things too, we all do. But, why bring your fight here to Treeleaf other than to pump yourself up a little bit? To educate the feminized, postmodern male that all of their actions are for naught? To tell Zennists that they are wrong to drop the Truth and instead fight for your cobbled-together version of it? To make the world see things your way?
    ALL OF THIS IS FOLLY.
    It all misses the point of what is being done here. So, if you need to feel like a Genius by throwing around dated intellectual feedback loops, then this is the wrong place for that. If you want to discuss (which means talking AND listening) the way that Buddha and Dogen viewed the transcendence of suffering and how that plays out in the lives of 21st Century laypeople, this might be a good place. No Truths to be found here other than the ones you bring . . . the point, as I see it, isn't the possession of Truth, it is the personal discovery of Truth. Transformative and personal. We cannot open a lid on each other's heads and pour Truth in, it must be experienced. Sitting is a good place to start.

    All in good fun ('cause this really is just a bunch of words on a page),
    Eika

    PS--Reading back over my post, I sound like an arm-chair psychiatrist. For that I apologize. But, nonetheless, I still think the issue I have with your thread, Kevin, is one of motivation.

  33. #83

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Eika
    I merely question your motivation.
    I would expect nothing less, especially since my views are so unusual, and especially those about women.

    I don't believe that men and women have fundamentally changed over time. I've travelled all over the world and found that the psychology of men and women is essentially the same in all cultures. So I'm not one of those who believe that the psychological differences between men and women is the result of changing cultural environments.

    I think there is enough evidence on your website that you are defending an image of yourself as one of the übermensch geniuses that you so admire.
    I'm far from perfect, but yes, given what I believe I know, and what I am able to see, I have no choice but to objectively label myself a "genius" of sorts. But it's just a label, and isn't significant in itself. It's the ideas, and way of seeing the world, that really matter. The freedom to bend with nature, without sacrificing truth, and the inner stillness.

    But, why bring your fight here
    I'm only responding to comments people have made about my videos.

    And while I've been here I've noticed several entrenched delusions, or blind spots, of the members of this forum, which I have indicated.

    And I don't consider my criticisms of the Dalai Lama as a "fight". He's a likeable fellow who is simply out of his depth, and I see it as my duty to say so.

    It all misses the point of what is being done here.
    The only thing that should be being done here, or anywhere, is the dropping of delusion.

    That is the essence of my whole "philosophy", for want of a better word.

    All in good fun ('cause this really is just a bunch of words on a page),
    Taken in good spirit.

  34. #84

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    If anything, this thread has been a lesson in how we each will often fill our heads with all manner of ideas, illogical (though seeming sensible to us) conclusions, very personal visions of "Truth", self-styled findings of 'right and wrong', rigid opinions ... many of which may not have much connection to how the world actually works (much as people in centuries past convinced themselves that certain folks were witches or heretics, deserving to be burned at the stake). So much of what we think, is of our own making alone.

    We sit Shikantaza Zazen to drop all of that, clear out the opinions and divisions, and experience the world in a way free of that and that ... free of this and that and the other too.

    But we are all engaged, in one way or another, in self-creating a worldview, and binding our self in judgments and separations, our self convincing our self that we are "right" and something is "true" that may not be (it is a disease that infects religions of all colors, politics too). It may be a little more obvious in some of the postings in this thread, but it is a game we all engage in to some degree.

    Sorry Kevin ... some of your opinions and conclusion may be brilliant, even though few share them now. More power to you there. But many seem perhaps to be of your own making alone, and I urge you to see through those.

    Let's all just sit ... dropping all judgments, aversions and attractions, thoughts of right and wrong. divisions and separations. Let us hit the "reset" button on our thoughts and emotions, clear out the attic of dust & clutter which is our head .... and be very hesitant to restock it with more junk once we do.

    Gassho, J

  35. #85

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    But, but, but, but . . . oh, alright. (My best impression of my 6 year-old daughter).

    A sincere gassho to everyone here,
    Eika

  36. #86
    Senior Member AlanLa's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    I like to listen for wisdom, not judgment. Speaking, on the other hand, gets much more problematic. This thread shows examples of all of the above.

  37. #87

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    I think I've seen this thread on "The Princess Bride."

    Man in Black: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right... and who is dead.

    Vizzini: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

    Man in Black: You've made your decision then?

    Vizzini: Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.
    Man in Black: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

    Vizzini: Wait til I get going! Now, where was I?
    Man in Black: Australia.

    Vizzini: Yes, Australia. And you must have suspected I would have known the powder's origin, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
    Man in Black: You're just stalling now.

    Vizzini: You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

    Man in Black: You're trying to trick me into giving away something. It won't work.

    Vizzini: IT HAS WORKED! YOU'VE GIVEN EVERYTHING AWAY! I KNOW WHERE THE POISON IS!
    Man in Black: Then make your choice.

    Vizzini: I will, and I choose - What in the world can that be?

    Vizzini: [Vizzini gestures up and away from the table. Roberts looks. Vizzini swaps the goblets]
    Man in Black: What? Where? I don't see anything.

    Vizzini: Well, I- I could have sworn I saw something. No matter.First, let's drink. Me from my glass, and you from yours.

    Man in Black, Vizzini: [they drink ]

    Man in Black: You guessed wrong.

    Vizzini: You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha...

    Vizzini: [Vizzini stops suddenly, and falls dead to the right]

  38. #88
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Kevin,

    You are no different than most people. You believe your own opinion to be better than another's. You praise those who have the brilliance to agree with you and you chastise those who have the lack of wisdom/intelligence/perception to disagree with you.

    You are like all the rest of us and not really so special at all - all of us supposing to be captains of the ship of the world and cursing how much better it would be if people would just listen to us - as clearly we are right.

    Chet

  39. #89

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Well what a week! It started off with me chairing a meeting of Buddhists of several traditions. The ensuing debate largely centred around problems caused by controversies within Tibetan Buddhism and how this could be tackled by our constitution. I had to let them all have their say and the meeting went on and on eventually over running by two hours! ops: And then this thread started! :roll:

    I must say it has all been very interesting and I am sure we have all learned a lot from it. I know I have. (You`r never too old to learn) :wink:

    I am off tomorrow morning for a few days to the balmy beaches of Babbacombe Bay in South Devon with my wife to celebrate our 47th wedding anniversary on Tuesday . Perhaps you will have sorted things out by the time I get back.

    Much metta to all,

    Daiku

  40. #90

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    You are no different than most people. You believe your own opinion to be better than another's. You praise those who have the brilliance to agree with you and you chastise those who have the lack of wisdom/intelligence/perception to disagree with you.
    Buddhas also perform all those activities you mention, so I don't think those measures are ideal for making the argument that all people are equally deluded.

  41. #91
    Myoshin
    Guest

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    I was not going to post anything more on this subject but I cannot take it anymore.

    Kevin,
    I do not know you, in fact you may be a decent person in life but I really cannot stand you on this topic. You are reminding me of a child on a playground who became fed up with his friends and packed up his marbles in a huff and left. No matter what points we raise, what words of kindness and wisdom that are expressed you will still continue on your quest. You are not dropping ego, you are full of it. Even if you think you are right, there are times just to call it quits. No matter what either party says, if we agree or disagree this argument will just continue. So my advice is just to let it drop.

    If you are right, then congrats to you.

    How about we just sit.

    Gassho and thanks for the lesson on tolerance,

    Kyle

  42. #92

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Maybe, it is enough here, nothing more to say (although I hope Taigu might have more of his wise words)? Maybe all has been said that can be said?

    This is just life and human nature. Let's all sit.

  43. #93

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianP
    I am off tomorrow morning for a few days to the balmy beaches of Babbacombe Bay in South Devon with my wife to celebrate our 47th wedding anniversary on Tuesday
    Happy Anniversary, Daiku!

    Gassho,
    Kevin

  44. #94
    Senior Member Shonin's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Happy, Anniversary!!!!!

  45. #95

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    As a bit of fun, I thought I would relate what this thread has taught me about Zen practitioners. So I hope you can all take it with the good humour with which it is intended. I may sometimes be using a little hyperbole, so I hope you will allow me that.

    This is not to be taken as a criticism of Zen practitioners in particular, but is simply a reflection of the human condition, which some experience more than others.

    -----

    "You have opinions" really means "You are a deluded prat."

    "We are all deluded" really means "You are especially deluded".

    "Right speech is something that everyone should practice" really means "You are speaking rubbish".

    "I am no authority" really means "You can tell by my humility that I am an authority".

    "I think we need a little less certainty" really means "I am right and you are wrong".

    "Other people are not the problem" really means "You are the problem".

    "I do not know if any more can be said on this subject" really means "I can't stand to hear any more".

    "A wise fish swims past a baited hook" really means "This person is a worm, and I couldn't let it pass without saying something".

    "There is no need to respond to this" really means "I felt the need to respond".

    "Heed the advice of the wise" really means "Do what I tell you, you arrogant fool".

    "We are not practising the same Buddhism" really means "You are not practising any kind of Buddhism".

    "Happy Jihad!" really means "I will crush you, heathen".

    "A bit of poetry, a walk in the woods, playing with children..." really means "I am expressing my disgust in a message on my computer right now".

    "You are a koan in tolerance" really means "I can barely stand you".

    "You are only interested in picking up a fight" really means "You have the gall to disagree with me!"

    "Your videos are very professionally produced" really means "I disagree with everything you say in your videos".

    "This is not my opinion, it is the opinion of the Buddha" really means "I am right and you are wrong".

    "This is the ABC of my tradition" really means "If you don't agree with me, then you know nothing".

    "Maybe I've said too much" really means "I don't know what I'm saying".

    "You are like all the rest of us" really means "I am better than you".

    "Drop your opinions" really means "I am right".

    "Let's all sit" really means "I can't take this any more!".

  46. #96

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    I think what everyone needs and wants to say has been said.

    Please, let us stop this thread here ... enough.

    Let us each return to our own Practice.

  47. #97

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Daikan Eno once said to his student not to "always" see other's fault, but to see our own's fault.

    Ok, be well

    Gassho, Mujo

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