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Thread: Personality cults and fundamentalism

  1. #1

    Personality cults and fundamentalism

    NOTE FROM JUNDO: KEVIN, I AM GOING TO STEP IN HERE (ONE OF THE FEW TIMES I EVER HAVE). I BELIEVE THE VIDEOS OVERSTEP A LINE OF INTOLERANCE ... EVEN THOUGH THE THEME IS OPPOSING INTOLERANCE. THE LANGUAGE IS TOO STRONG, SOME OF IT MEAN, AND THE CONCLUSIONS NOT OPEN MINDED TO OTHERS' RIGHT TO THEIR RELIGION (Especially Part 1). I AM GOING TO LEAVE THEM POSTED HERE (FOR NOW), BUT MORE AS EXAMPLES OF WHAT FAIR CRITICISM SHOULD NOT BE. I DO NOT THINK THEY SPEAK WELL FOR THE POINT YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE.

    Kevin, really study what Taigu is saying below. And, as you know, this is coming from a fellow (me) who is also a critic of much of what goes on at E-Sangha. Your "Part 2" is actually a pretty accurate description of the trouble and intolerant policies at E-Sangha, but "Part 1" is over the top.
    You good folks might enjoy my two new youtube videos about personality cults and fundamentalism in Buddhism:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THY28q_PVEQ[/video]]Part 1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQLubTCHCeA[/video]]Part 2

  2. #2
    Myoshin
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Hi Kevin.

    I am not sure I agree with you on all points here.

    There seem to be a lot of statements but no citiations or facts (sorry I am a science major, and I prefer that when dealing with things of this magnitude that one supports his claims correctly). Your ideas are your own and I respect you for having them.

    I am not an avid supporter of reincarnation in the Tibetan sense of the word, but I would not call their view insane. They are kind of our Dharma grandfathers. It is true that there are some 'bad eggs' in a dozen, so to speak, but I think that is seen in mostly every religion (see the crusades, witch hunts and jihads as some examples).

    Right speech is something that everyone should practice, from monks who post signs defaming others, or some who defame other's beliefs.

    I am no authority, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

    Deep gassho,
    Kyle

  3. #3

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Myoshin
    There seem to be a lot of statements but no citiations or facts (sorry I am a science major, and I prefer that when dealing with things of this magnitude that one supports his claims correctly).
    I hear what you're saying, since I am a science graduate myself.

    I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "no citations", since the word of the Dalai Lama himself, which was provided in quite a number of instances, is a kind of citation and fact that goes straight to the source . . . unless you think they might be CGI. :-)

    I have my doubts about some of the translations in the documentary, and I have my doubts about the story reported on the buddhist news site. But what can I do, since the Dalai Lama won't talk to me personally. And there can be no communication when one party refuses to speak to the other.

    But I strongly suspect that the documentary stories of violence in the followers of the Dalai Lama are true, since I have experienced this for myself personally on many occassions.

    I am not an avid supporter of reincarnation in the Tibetan sense of the word, but I would not call their view insane.
    It's a matter of personal choice. And I think that if the word "insane" can be applied to anything at all, then it has to be applied to such views as these.

    They are kind of our Dharma grandfathers.
    I wouldn't go that far. There are some things about the Tibetan form of the religion that I can appreciate, such as their meticulous structuring of systems and ideas. But then I appreciate that about the Germans too!

    It is true that there are some 'bad eggs' in a dozen, so to speak, but I think that is seen in mostly every religion (see the crusades, witch hunts and jihads as some examples).
    In my experience, for every one bad egg in a dozen, there are ten people who are complicit to their being bad.

    Right speech is something that everyone should practice
    For me, the most essential quality of "right speech" must be truthfulness, and the genuine intent to make the truth known, for its own sake.

  4. #4

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Gassho...

    Kevin, what is your intention in posting these videos? I don't see how their content contributes to this Sangha at all. Vitrol is rarely beneficial, in my opinion.

    gassho,
    tobiishi

  5. #5

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobiishi
    Kevin, what is your intention in posting these videos?
    1. Primarily, stimulating people to think.
    2. Revealing a side of the Dalai Lama that few people know - a lesson in karma
    3. Highlighting the pitfalls of blind faith
    4. Warning people about the deceptions of e-sangha

    I think the best way to learn is from the mistakes of others. If one does this then one is quite literally "learning from past lives". We should all seek to avoid making the same mistakes as those made by the Dalai Lama.

  6. #6
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    hi kyle,

    Thank you for this contribution. Allow me to disagree with the nature of this work of yours. If I share some of your views (in fact, many), I don't really accept the style. The words are pretty harsh and the judgement is sharp, there is a lot of Manjushri in this and not enough of Kannon. The Shambala myth and fantaisy that Lopez brillantly spotted, this dream of the West about Tibet is a real issue indeed, based on a collection of naive beliefs: nevertheless the best way to make people think is not to put together very abrupt statements about a religious leader and his followers, not to stir more agitation and further anger. You might to deal with your own disappointement here more than sheding some light on this. Catharsis, not proper thinking. If you really want to make people think, it takes a bit more, more time, more distance, more stillness. The best way forward would be to understand why the West buys these lies...I think we all agree here that blind faith is dangerous and leads to all sorts of violence, symbolicaly enacted or real.
    A much more positive approach would be to explain and live the open reality of Buddhsit teachings rather than starting another witch hunt ( so many already, and yes, you are right, E-sangha is a big nest of fundamentalism). A much more balanced view would be to see through the human conditioning and the cultural bounds, his, theirs, mine, yours... they exist in tibetan Buddhism, they also do in Japanese Zen. In doing so, to understand that there is no perfect teacher or perfect teaching, and this in itself, is at the same time perfection itself. Maybe you could get a bit more familiar with the teachings of Nagarjuna?
    I am a bit tired of these ego driven voices that, in the name of their intellectual or religious truths, are ready to go into the next crusade in full gear with great glee and energy. They plague this world and people's heads, they make some Zen teachers very abusive and turn lamas into crooks and criminals. These voices are mine too. As well as yours. The bottom line is that you seem to fail to recognize them where they truly originate : your personal fiction.
    Sittting bring us back to the point where we cleary measure the extent of our own delusion. Rather than taking the dalai lama apart, shall we start to do the job on this fiction called the self?
    The best way to learn is from the mistake of others? Are you kidding? nobody can. The best way to learn is to study the self and forget the self.

    All the best and thank you again


    gassho

    Taigu

  7. #7

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    I am reposting here what I wrote above:

    NOTE FROM JUNDO: KEVIN, I AM GOING TO STEP IN HERE (ONE OF THE FEW TIMES I EVER HAVE). I BELIEVE THE VIDEOS OVERSTEP A LINE OF INTOLERANCE ... EVEN THOUGH THE THEME IS OPPOSING INTOLERANCE. THE LANGUAGE IS TOO STRONG, SOME OF IT MEAN, AND THE CONCLUSIONS NOT OPEN MINDED TO OTHERS' RIGHT TO THEIR RELIGION (Especially Part 1). I AM GOING TO LEAVE THEM POSTED HERE (FOR NOW), BUT MORE AS EXAMPLES OF WHAT FAIR CRITICISM SHOULD NOT BE. I DO NOT THINK THEY SPEAK WELL FOR THE POINT YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE.

    Kevin, really study what Taigu is saying above. And, as you know, this is coming from a fellow (me) who is also a critic of much of what goes on at E-Sangha. Your "Part 2" is actually a pretty accurate description of the trouble and intolerant policies at E-Sangha, but "Part 1" is over the top.

    Gassho, Jundo

  8. #8

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    I respect your response Jundo. I was certainly pushing the limits.

    Yet, sometimes, things are so bad, that one must describe things in no uncertain terms.

    But that's easy for me to say, since I am essentially a non-denominational Buddhist.

  9. #9

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobiishi
    Gassho...

    Kevin, what is your intention in posting these videos? I don't see how their content contributes to this Sangha at all. Vitrol is rarely beneficial, in my opinion.

    gassho,
    tobiishi
    I have to agree with Tobiishi. I do see where you are coming from, Kevin, but it's the vitrolic or snarky humor that really puts me off. I too was uncertain of what your intentions were since you also posted them in ZFI (though I can't find it there) w/o any comment. I am not piling on you, but just to let you know that folks may agree with you on facts, but language and presentation does affect them.

  10. #10

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    A poem:

    Thinking, thinking,thinking.
    Always thinking.
    Never sitting.
    Never still.

    A footnote: Whether your right or wrong. Be nice if you can. Don't spread confusion, and help out here and there. It is all about "you".

    I agree there are more...what... tolerant ways to do stuff. Your practice should teach you that. Be aware of your audience and how balanced you are right now. So you can tell what the hell you are doing. Oh, I've gotta post this or make this. Ok. Fine. But maybe you could sit for a bit and weigh the pros and cons.

    It's all up to you really.

    I have no problems with your video. I didn't even watch it, and I'm not going to. I don't really care that much.

    Have fun.

    Gassho

    W

  11. #11

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Hello Kevin and to others posting here

    I wish there were a way to put 'fun' into fundamentalism. I wouldn't be calling out any one particular fundamentalist specifically, my own preference is to look at the whole of fundamentalism. It answers some kind of need or it wouldn't have come into existence, nor would it continue to exist.
    What is that need?

    Same holds true for persons by way of circumstance or choice or combination who are called upon to give up a private life and become a public figure, a political or famous figure, let alone a spiritual leader. They are fulfilling a need.

    I can't see any benefit which could possibly outweigh giving up a life of coming and going quietly, doing simple things without fanfare and flashbulbs or microphones. But people do make considerable sacrifices.
    As far as 'proof' as evidenced by film clips go:
    It's just too easy to take bits of footage or quotations and present them out of context.
    Heaven forbid anyone make a collage of things I've said!!

    With the burdens placed upon him, I think he has done extraordinarily well.
    As far as the folks posting the names/pictures/addresses of others...
    sure, something is afoot
    just who, what, I don't know
    You know during the Viet Nam war many peace activist groups were infiltrated by CIA/undercover police and interestingly enough it turned out it was more likely the 'infiltrators' who tried to steer the groups toward making use of violence in their actions...
    Things are not always what they seem.
    Things are not always the way we think they seem.

    You Tube is full of all kinds of things; I prefer the categories of silly and funny. My work is too serious!

    I was invited by a neighbor to come hear the Dalai Lama speak next week. I heard him about 30 years ago, and haven't felt the need to hear him again. Same with a lot of speakers, once is enough. This neighbor found out I was a buddhist and immediately thought Dali Lama! She also has been to Tassajara and thinks that's fantastic too... (I have quite a lot of opinions about Tassajara--don't even get me started!) So I am still getting to know this neighbor who is trying to connect with me in ways she thinks there are already affinities.
    I appreciate this, but my practice doesn't fit the mold. We will probably find far more connections if we steer clear of buddhism with each other!
    We shall see.

  12. #12

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Keishin
    What is that need?
    The need for fundamentalism is the need to buttress a delusion before it collapses in a heap.

    With the burdens placed upon him, I think he has done extraordinarily well.
    Well, he could certainly have done worse. I'll agree with you that far.

    But I really don't think he's done at all well on the realization side of things, including the realization that literal rebirth is a fantasy, and what the teaching of rebirth is really all about. And that fault is just the tip of the iceberg.

    But I'm not blaming him at all. He's only a product of his environment, as we all are. It's not as though he would have been brought up to think for himself. It's a miracle he thinks as much as he does.

  13. #13
    disastermouse
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Solway
    Quote Originally Posted by Keishin
    What is that need?
    The need for fundamentalism is the need to buttress a delusion before it collapses in a heap.

    With the burdens placed upon him, I think he has done extraordinarily well.
    Well, he could certainly have done worse. I'll agree with you that far.

    But I really don't think he's done at all well on the realization side of things, including the realization that literal rebirth is a fantasy, and what the teaching of rebirth is really all about. And that fault is just the tip of the iceberg.

    But I'm not blaming him at all. He's only a product of his environment, as we all are. It's not as though he would have been brought up to think for himself. It's a miracle he thinks as much as he does.
    Maybe the lesson in this is for all of us to examine how our own cultural and personal dogmas blind us.

    Personally, some Tibetan teachers have helped me in their writings. Heck, I'm reading 'No Self, No Problem' by Anam Thubten right now. I usually don't read much TibBud stuff anymore, but this book jumped out at me and it seems to be the perfect message at the perfect time.

    E-Sangha drives me bonkers though - it's like an armed fortress of stupidity. But anyone here already knows that.

    Chet

  14. #14
    Senior Member Shonin's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Chet, Well I know that now. LOL.Never been there myself. ( E-Sangha)

    Kevin, I think literal or metaphorical reincarnation is something one has to determine for themselves. As well as how important a past life really is, personally i thnk they are so far gone it's irrelevant to anything. I live here and now, my karma is here with me. So I work here and now.

    I don't think those who believe in reincarnation are idiots ( especially since I do believe and have 131 IQ thanx). Maybe it is a lack of realization. Perhaps those who say it is lack realization themselves? Who can say. And yes, in many cultures rebirth can have more than the literal reincarnation meaning. Even in Zen I have seen certain ancient Zen practitioners make statements about being a fox ( 500 years I think) or how they are going to be reincarnated as an Ox.

    Also certain faiths outside of buddhism hold serious views in regards to literal reincarnation. so perhaps a bit of respect for them too?

    But that's just me and i honestly couldn't say or care to guess how much or little realization I possess as a dualistic Ego-equipped new kid.

    Dave _/_

  15. #15

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by ZenDave
    I don't think those who believe in reincarnation are idiots ( especially since I do believe and have 131 IQ thanx).
    Unfortunately having a high IQ rarely translates into wisdom, and often facilitates madness. People of low IQ and little imagination aren't intelligent enough to be terribly delusional.

    And yes, in many cultures rebirth can have more than the literal reincarnation meaning. Even in Zen I have seen certain ancient Zen practitioners make statements about being a fox ( 500 years I think) or how they are going to be reincarnated as an Ox.
    I support the non-literal interpretation as a means of talking about causes and consequences.

    Of course, even this "non-literal" interpretation is "literal" in a sense. It's literal in a sensible way.

    It is clear what kind of reincarnation the Dalai Lama believes in, and I hold that those who are unsure about what he believes in this regard are in a state of denial.

    Also certain faiths outside of buddhism hold serious views in regards to literal reincarnation. so perhaps a bit of respect for them too?
    I find this "respect" idea very vague.

    I respect the devil himself, but I'm still going to tell the truth about him.

    Not that the Dalai Lama is a devil. He's more of a pup.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Shonin's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    But as opposed showing respect for the Devil, respecting one's decision on reincarnation is not the support of Evil. It's simply a viewpoint different from your own.

    And to say it is Truth as in denouncing the Devil for obvious reasons. You cannot prove or dispprove literal reincarnation. Cannot be done. What is silly to you is not silly to others. Now don't get me wrong, I don't believe every claim of one's supposed past lives. I go at it with a skeptics perspective.

    Also remember when bashing on another's beliefs people often make fun of Buddhism as well.

    Perhaps what you say is true in regards to IQ. Mine really isn't that high, just the botton rung of genius. Not to mention, it measures a potential to learn as opposed to a strict score measuring the ins and outs of intelligence.. But it illustrates the point that i'm not stupid. nor am I an idiot for disagreeing with you.

    As far as any wisdom I possess? Who can say? Unintelligent people can also be unwise. I'd like to think i'm not wise at all. More surprises as I sit more.

    Both Wisdom and Intelligence can be easily squashed by the ADD. Then again, both have been known to be enhanced in those rare moments.

    But I am just barely wise enough to see the obvious faults in preaching about another's lack of realization while being quite insulting and acting as if one is more aware of the nature of things than everyone who disagrees with him. Using your own words " Wouldn't it be more wise to say "I don't know...." ." It was soooo common sense when poking at the Dalai Lama.

    But while i'm sure we won't see eye to eye, perhaps we could sit together in the people with minimal social skills corner? That's usually my corner of the Zen Hall but i'm happy to share, am cool like that.

    Dave _/_

    And please, by all means, you can have the last word.

  17. #17

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by ZenDave
    It's simply a viewpoint different from your own.
    Not all viewpoints are equally sane, and I argue that the belief in literal rebirth is very much insane, and for a whole range of reasons. On the one hand there's no evidence for it, and on the other hand there's no reason to support the possibility of it.

    You cannot prove or dispprove literal reincarnation. Cannot be done.
    It depends on what you mean by "literal reincarnation".

    Can you disprove the existence of the invisible pink unicorn? No you can't. But that doesn't mean the belief in the invisible pink unicorn is a sane belief.

    I can also defeat the belief in literal rebirth on purely logical grounds, but I won't go into that now, unless you want to start a whole new topic about it.

    Also remember when bashing on another's beliefs people often make fun of Buddhism as well.
    Many Buddhists deserve to be made fun of.

    while being quite insulting
    It's only your interpretation that it is insulting. I don't think the the Dalai Lama himself would find it to be insulting. He may even admit that my criticisms are perfectly true.

    And please, by all means, you can have the last word.
    I'm not sure I'd want the last word, as that would mean I'm about to die!

  18. #18
    Myoshin
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Maybe this is just a helpful hint but I do not know if anymore can be said on this subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zen Dave
    But while i'm sure we won't see eye to eye, perhaps we could sit together in the people with minimal social skills corner? That's usually my corner of the Zen Hall but i'm happy to share, am cool like that
    Agreed.

    Shall we sit with that?

    Gassho,
    Kyle

  19. #19
    Senior Member Shonin's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    I hereby, nominate Kyle as coolest guy in Calss. Can I get a second? ( come sit with me Kyle. Haven't been able to do that with ya yet.)

    Dave _/_

  20. #20
    Myoshin
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    I would man, but I have to get up early tomorrow... class.

    Maybe Friday? Around the same time?

    Gassho,
    Kyle

  21. #21
    Senior Member Shonin's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    I'll Pm ya so as not to interferre with the thread.

  22. #22

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    I'm not sure I'd want the last word, as that would mean I'm about to die!
    I just have to say, that made me laugh.

    Gassho

  23. #23

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    And for the sake of Pete, leave my invisible pink unicorn out of this. Pick on somebody your own IQ.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Shonin's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    LOL, Tobi.

  25. #25

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    My 2 cents, Kevin:

    I am no fan of fundamentalism of any sort. I am also no fan of blind adherence to dogma. I think there are many silly beliefs and practices in Tibetan Buddhism as there are in Catholicism, Presbyterianism, Republicanism, Zen, etc. To hold tightly to ANY system is most often folly. I think the videos are strong on opinion and weak on content. There's not much "proof" (whatever that means in postmodern times) and a lot of opinion.

    My issue is that your flavor of agnosticism/skepticism is not used as a mirror, only a spear.

    The Dalai Lama has used his fortunate "accident" of being born into a life of wealth and respect to his advantage at times . . . OK, but you and I have done the same.

    The Dalai Lama's followers have been blinded by rhetoric, tradition, and unquestioned assumptions . . . OK, but you and I have done the same.

    The Dalai Lama believes and perpetuates beliefs in things that are unproveable, improbable, and, therefore, "silly" by modern standards of proof . . . OK, but you and I have done the same.

    Now, I'm not suggesting that our faults prevent us from speaking out about the faults of others. What I am suggesting is that our faults make us humble WHEN we have to do the unpleasant work of pointing them out.

    To speak frankly, I see more pride in your video than true call for change and awakening. The medicine must be delivered in a proper dosage and method to work well.

    Lastly, I honestly share many of your criticisms of Tibetan Buddhism. The strength of its dogma, the infighting between NKG and Dalai Lama groups, the elaborate supernatural explanations for things that they don't understand, are all reasons that I parted ways with the local Tibetan group 15 years ago. I'm simply not so sure that I'm not just as silly as they are about other beliefs . . . but I'm making the effort.

    Peace,
    Eika

  26. #26

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Intelligent comments Elka,

    From my perspective I've been gifted with knowing certain things and I don't see any reason to mince my words. Mincing words is what has gotten us into this mess in the first place.

    As for how the medicine should be delivered - I think that's a very difficult issue, and is ultimately best decided by each individual, since only they know for sure what their own motives are (hopefully). But the issues you raise are good food for thought for anyone.

    Personally, I'm not interested in beating around the bush and pandering to people's precious feelings. The situation is too serious for that. The very last thing I want to be is misunderstood, and I've learned through experience that if I sugar-coat my words, or soften them in any way, then 95% of my message is lost - which is effectively all of it.

    I'm simply not so sure that I'm not just as silly as they are about other beliefs . . . but I'm making the effort.
    I respect that. Obviously I consider that I'm working from a position that is a little more secure, and less vulnerable to collapse, or I wouldn't be taking the rather bold approach that I am. Even though I'm far from perfect, I do believe that my eyes are open to a great many fundamental truths of which the Dalai Lama knows nothing.

  27. #27
    disastermouse
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Solway
    Intelligent comments Elka,

    From my perspective I've been gifted with knowing certain things and I don't see any reason to mince my words. Mincing words is what has gotten us into this mess in the first place.

    As for how the medicine should be delivered - I think that's a very difficult issue, and is ultimately best decided by each individual, since only they know for sure what their own motives are (hopefully). But the issues you raise are good food for thought for anyone.
    So, you've naturally elected yourself to this role of truth dispenser? Everyone is so fucking sure of themselves. I think we need a little less certainty and conviction and just a little more meditative inquiry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Solway
    Personally, I'm not interested in beating around the bush and pandering to people's precious feelings. The situation is too serious for that.
    No, it really isn't. It isn't important at all. Other people aren't the problem. But since you aren't interested in pandering to people's precious feelings, certainly you won't mind if I follow that dictate myself for just a moment...

    Obviously I consider that I'm working from a position that is a little more secure, and less vulnerable to collapse, or I wouldn't be taking the rather bold approach that I am. Even though I'm far from perfect, I do believe that my eyes are open to a great many fundamental truths of which the Dalai Lama knows nothing.
    Okay. What you said is just plain stupid and frankly, Adharmic. Really? More 'secure and less vulnerable to collapse?' Excuse me, there's this religion I've heard of that refutes this idea of security and basically states that all positions are insecure and very very vulnerable to collapse. Perhaps you've heard of it - I think it's called 'Buddhism'. Google it.

    You take yourself far, far too seriously. Go ahead, Quixote ... charge if you want to - but leave alone those of us swimming against the current of general idiocy and mal-prescribed remedies to misdiagnosed problems. When you first posted, I thought you might have some sort of idea what the hell you were talking about - tenuously or not...but far from being the 'head of the class' as you seem to think you are, you're really quite dharmically retarded.

    Chet

  28. #28
    Senior Member Shonin's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    As the Unofficial Offical Judge , I give Chet 3 points for using "Dharmically Retarded" in a sentence.

    NyQuil Prophet _/_

  29. #29
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Hi Kevin,


    From my perspective I've been gifted with knowing certain things and I don't see any reason to mince my words. Mincing words is what has gotten us into this mess in the first place.

    As for how the medicine should be delivered - I think that's a very difficult issue, and is ultimately best decided by each individual, since only they know for sure what their own motives are (hopefully). But the issues you raise are good food for thought for anyone.

    Personally, I'm not interested in beating around the bush and pandering to people's precious feelings. The situation is too serious for that. The very last thing I want to be is misunderstood, and I've learned through experience that if I sugar-coat my words, or soften them in any way, then 95% of my message is lost - which is effectively all of it.

    I'm simply not so sure that I'm not just as silly as they are about other beliefs . . . but I'm making the effort.
    I respect that. Obviously I consider that I'm working from a position that is a little more secure, and less vulnerable to collapse, or I wouldn't be taking the rather bold approach that I am. Even though I'm far from perfect, I do believe that my eyes are open to a great many fundamental truths of which the Dalai Lama knows nothing.
    I would not say it in the same legendary Chet style, but frankly your arrogance is quite revealing. I know that arrogance very well for I am not immune to it, just increasingly aware of it when it shows its tail in my mind. That s Buddhist practice, noticing our own delusions, none of your posing as a judge or a referee has to do with the real thing. You approach is not even bold, in Buddhism being bold is being naked and simple. The sooner you realize it, the better. Just sit. Study the self. Pick up genjokoan. Read the final paragraphs, they apply to what you exeprience now. Enjoy life. Leave the lamas alone. Develop a nice sense of humour and whoever you love, just express gratitude to them and hug them and extend this to the whole world, Dalai lama included. Come on, it is not too hard... Please, pay attention.

    gassho


    Taigu

  30. #30
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    And by the way, the mess is entirely ours and mincing words is not what Jundo is talking about.


    gassho


    Taigu

  31. #31

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu
    I would not say it in the same legendary Chet style, but frankly your arrogance is quite revealing.
    Yes, let us not yell and curse the fellow who is yelling and cursing the fellows he considers intolerant for cursing and yelling at others. Civil discourse here please, without a tone of anger. One can clearly and directly express disagreement or even strong indignation, and one's opinion and views, without a tone of anger. Do not add additional intolerance on top of seeming intolerance.

    And "ditto" to what Taigu wrote in that beautiful post.

  32. #32
    Senior Member Shonin's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Jundo, thanks for the reminder. That perpetuation of negativity is like a carefully laid trap hidden under the leaves, by crazy ex military guys that grew up laying traps...oh tangent!

    *starts knawing at his ankle to get free*

    Dave _/_

  33. #33

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    A wise fish swims past a baited hook.

    JH

  34. #34

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    1. 1. May he(she) be free of suffering; may he(she) feel safe and still.

    2. May he(she) be free of enmity; may he(she) be loving, grateful and kind.

    3. May he(she) be healthy and at ease in all his(her) ills.

    4. May he(she) be at peace, embracing all conditions of life

    Gassho,
    -K2

  35. #35
    Senior Member Shonin's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Jrh, are you saying i have a big mouth and little impulse control ?

    Dave _/_

  36. #36

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    I think we need a little less certainty and conviction and just a little more meditative inquiry.
    You can certainly speak for yourself on that score, but you need to be careful when you assume that what is true for yourself is also true for others.

    Other people aren't the problem.
    Are you absolutely sure about that? Or is this just your personal opinion, which you claim to be in need of more meditative inquiry?

    Excuse me, there's this religion I've heard of that refutes this idea of security . . . 'Buddhism'.
    A Buddha is secure in his birthlessness.

  37. #37

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by ZenDave
    Jrh, are you saying i have a big mouth and little impulse control ?
    Dave _/_
    Hi Dave,

    No, not at all... would never say anything like that. Tobiishi summed it up nicely, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobiishi
    Kevin, what is your intention in posting these videos? I don't see how their content contributes to this Sangha at all...
    Let the ball go through to the keeper, no need to play it (...talking cricket not baseball).

    JohnH

  38. #38
    Senior Member Shonin's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    LOL, jrh. It would have been okay if ya did mean that , not so far off from the truth as I often delude myself into thinking.

    ( i know what ya meant, am completely teasing).

    Am still trying to figure out how invisible can be pink too( in the relative sense). Can the unicorn become visible if it wants? Assuming of course we all agree it does exist. After all if it's invisible and doesn't bump into folks how would we know, or distinguish it from other invisible animals/mystical creatures even if it did bump into someone.

    I mean the horn might just come across as say... an indigo rhino's horn. Or maybe not unlike some still existing various colored dinosaurs?
    This type of deeper conversation always has me at a loss for words.

    Dave _/_

  39. #39
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Hi Kevin,

    Although I will post a vid on Monday as a kind of answer to what you are putting forward, I sense from what I get so far that you are very much drunk with your self confidence and your Buddhist intoxication has unfortunately taken over the kind and open heart that you are. The problem with Buddhism and solitary practice is that it can lead to a very deluded spot made of rigidity and dogmaticism. It is well known in our tradition. No matter what people will tell you kindly or not, miroring your own style, you are not prepared to buldge. That basic attitude has nothing to do with courage and strengh, it is the stubborn state of ignorance itself that hides away its own reality through the display of fancy conceptual statements and rhetorical games. When you are given one of the main teachings of Buddhism as food for thoughts, nameley that others are not the problem, you stick to your own blaming pattern. And then serve people with a mystical statement which is a direct expression of an idealistic view of reality, the so called birthlessness in which the Buddha is secure. Well, it seems we are not practising the same Buddhism, but what I can say is that bullying and going on a cruisade is not my understanding of Buddhism. When a difficulty arises, I tend to always come back to the source, my own deluded mind and action. Wraping oneself with authority and blaming others has been the practice of many deluded monks, priests, lamas and masters of the past. You are happily joining the club when calling for a Jihad. Why dont you hear what Jundo and so many other people say?

    Anyway, take great care and please, try to listen to these distant voices trying to reach your original face through the thick veil of certainty.

    A bit of poetry, a walk in the woods, playing with children...

    gassho


    Taigu

  40. #40

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu
    Although I will post a vid on Monday as a kind of answer to what you are putting forward, I sense from what I get so far that you are very much drunk with your self confidence and your Buddhist intoxication has unfortunately taken over the kind and open heart that you are.
    Well if I'm intoxicated then I've been intoxicated for about twenty years, which is a rather long time to be intoxicated.

    I'm interested to know exactly what it is that I've said that you think is not open-hearted, so I'll look forward to your video. I will hope to see some solid proof rather than your own personal, biased speculations.

    fancy conceptual statements and rhetorical games.
    These are what I see coming from you.

    I particularly want to hear the specifics of what I've said that you consider to be wrong, rather than the vague speculations you've put forward.

    When you are given one of the main teachings of Buddhism as food for thoughts, nameley that others are not the problem, you stick to your own blaming pattern.
    I was pointing out the fact that you are a hypocrite. If "others are not the problem" then why are you stubbornly telling me that I'm wrong and blaming me? YOU are the problem, remember?

    bullying and going on a cruisade is not my understanding of Buddhism.
    "Bullying" is your own personal interpretation, which doesn't have anything to do with reality.

    Do you honestly think I'm "bullying" the Dalai Lama, who probably isn't even the slightest bit interested in my criticisms?

    Or do you think I'm bullying Tibetan Buddhists in general? In reality, I'm just speaking the truth in the hope that it will inspire some people to do something about it.

    The Buddha spent time to debunk false religions and philosophies, just as I do. If that's what you call a "crusade", then so be it.

    I suspect that you are sensitive about these matters because they have touched the raw nerve of your own attachments.

  41. #41

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Am still trying to figure out how invisible can be pink too( in the relative sense). Can the unicorn become visible if it wants? Assuming of course we all agree it does exist. After all if it's invisible and doesn't bump into folks how would we know, or distinguish it from other invisible animals/mystical creatures even if it did bump into someone.
    Well Dave, its funny you should mention relativity- I actually know the unicorn is pink because of the red-shift apparent in the invisible light spectrum reflected off her. And since I know she's not always running away from me at relativistic speeds, it must mean she's pink. Right?

    I'm going to take my deluded, blame-shifting intolerant bullying self and put him in a box and duct-tape it shut now, because I don't want to be blind to my own intolerance twenty years from now.

    gassho,
    tobiishi

  42. #42
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Kevin,

    Than you for answering. You are certainly not a problem to me and yes real intoxication can last long, self importance in particular.
    I am not blaming you but doing my job as a Buddhist teacher and spiritual friend, you may take it or leave it but once awaken from the dream the arrogance of your own words will be so ridiculous to your ears.
    As I said to you already, I share many of your views but you are too full of yourself to listen to anybody when they suggest that style matters, let alone to listen to a guy like me, just sewing and sitting and good for nothing. And you are right I am presumably an hypocrite. When people try to approach a wounded dog, they run the risk of a bite or two. Bless you.
    By the way, what do you wish people to do once they realize the truth of your words?

    The nature of your answer shows only what we all have guessed already, you are only interested in picking up a fight.


    take care and yes, walks, children, simple things...

    gassho


    Taigu

  43. #43

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu
    Than you for answering. You are certainly not a problem to me and yes real intoxication can last long, self importance in particular. I am not blaming you but doing my job as a Buddhist teacher and spiritual friend, you may take it or leave it but once awaken from the dream the arrogance of your own words will be so ridiculous to your ears.
    Taigu, these words you say are mere speculation on your part.

    By the way, what do you wish people to do once they realize the truth of your words?
    Once people realize the truth of my words, they will be realizing truths. And even the realizing of small truths is a step in the right direction.

    The nature of your answer shows only what we all have guessed already, you are only interested in picking up a fight.
    But don't you see that that's how your responses appear to me? Instead of just admitting that I'm right, or that my methods are not for you, you are being unnecessarily adversarial.

  44. #44
    disastermouse
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Solway
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    I think we need a little less certainty and conviction and just a little more meditative inquiry.
    You can certainly speak for yourself on that score, but you need to be careful when you assume that what is true for yourself is also true for others.
    "I know you are but what am I?" Seriously - that was the bottom line of what you just wrote.

    Other people aren't the problem.
    Are you absolutely sure about that? Or is this just your personal opinion, which you claim to be in need of more meditative inquiry?
    It doesn't matter if I'm sure of it - does it ring true for you or anyone else listening to our little dialogue at home? If it doesn't, very well - the windmill is that-a-way, sir.

    Excuse me, there's this religion I've heard of that refutes this idea of security . . . 'Buddhism'.
    A Buddha is secure in his birthlessness.
    I'm personally having a hard time believing you would know how a Buddha feels - but let's study the actions of a Buddha, shall we? In Sidd's time, there was an incredibly unfair caste system in India. What did Siddhartha do about that? He ignored the caste system within his own community. What did he not do? He did not start a political war with the 'awful, corrupt, stupid' Brahmins. I'd say he even refused to categorize them as stupid or corrupt. His way of combating ignorance wasn't combat at all - it was acceptance. "Yes, yes, stupid things are happening in the world, but here we are dedicated to sanity. Here there is a place for earnest inquirers."

    Chet

  45. #45
    disastermouse
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Solway
    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu

    The nature of your answer shows only what we all have guessed already, you are only interested in picking up a fight.
    But don't you see that that's how your responses appear to me? Instead of just admitting that I'm right, or that my methods are not for you, you are being unnecessarily adversarial.
    You brought the toy to the playpen and we've all been playing around with it a little bit.

    I wish you well, Kevin - but alas, I don't wish you success in your current endeavor because I also wish success for the Tibetans. Indeed, however their political fate goes, they have a legitimate place in the greater world of Buddhism.

    Chet

  46. #46
    Senior Member Shonin's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    deleted due to Dave Incident

  47. #47
    Senior Member Shonin's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Tobi, well I see how your explanation is quite valid in scientific terms. But are we sure ( with plenty of proof dated and categorized by approved researchers in the field) that the invisibility is even in fact light based as opposed to a form of invisibility where it renders our minds incapable of processing it's pressence. Like a form of brain washing...psychic camoflage even.

    Could you imagine being that irritating to others for 20 years? I think i'd probably drown myself just to benefit society. From compassion, not self loathing. I'm quite realized in that respect ya know. Or I guess you wouldn;t know because noone is as realized as myself on such things. Not even Kevin the Dancing Monkey.

    DANCE KEVIN!!! DANCE!! DANCE, WITH ALL YOUR MONKEY HEART HAS TO OFFER!!* gets out his lil music box and begins the hand cranking*.

  48. #48

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    somebody get dave a xanax :shock:

  49. #49
    Senior Member Shonin's Avatar
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    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    Not that I dispute my need for anti-anxiety meds from time to time, but i mean over a statement about psychic camoflage, Tobi? That's a lil drastic.* impish grin*

    Dave _/_

  50. #50

    Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

    DANCE KEVIN!!! DANCE!!
    Enough with the Zoolander already. It stings me like a fisher my ass.

    W

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