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Thread: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

  1. #1

    8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    Hi,

    We will resume our readings of Shobogenzo-Zuimonki this week with 2-13 to 2-17.

    A central theme might be "Do Not Pass Your Days In Vain" ... a fitting topic for the eve of our Ango 100-Day Practice Season ...
    ...beginning Saturday, 8/29.

    Gassho, J

  2. #2

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    Hi.

    2-13

    do not discriminate between inside or outside or between bright or dark.
    Another saying someone always likes to say is " Do not separate between hot and cold"

    And a question, Where do you hide that "what should be hidden"?

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen

  3. #3

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    2-13
    "Therefore as a practitioner of the Way, (you should) keep the Buddha’s precepts in mind, refraining from committing evil even though no one might see you or notice (what you do); do not discriminate between inside or outside or between bright or dark."

    Your actions should be in accordance with the precepts and your situation, regardless of who is watching or not watching. So its always just one, not two.

  4. #4

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    Hello all,

    A bit of free association for me this week….

    If learning the Way in the morning, I wouldn’t mind dying in the evening
    I thought what can bring about such courage?

    If we do not save ourselves, when, by rare chance, we have been born [in a human body] and are about to encounter the buddha-dharma, when will we (be able to save ourselves)?
    I sort of got stuck on the word “save”…..The notion of “salvation” came to mind. How can we be “saved”?

    I thought what can overcome death, or, if you prefer, rebirth? Al l of this conjured up the opening of the Heart Sutra….

    Avolokitesvara Bodhisattva, Awakened One of Compassion,

    In Prajna Paramita, theDeep Practice of Perfect Wisdom

    Perceived the emptiness of all five conditions,

    And was free of suffering.
    Gassho,
    BrianW

  5. #5

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    2-13: It's not that you keep the precepts because of other people, but because you keep the precepts. Inside, outside, hidden or obvious ... it does not matter.

  6. #6

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    2-13: Don't be duplicitous in your behavior. Secular folks act with propriety regardless if someone is watching. Similarly, when following the buddha-dharma, obey the precepts whether or not you are being seen.

    2-14: Persistence and determination count for more than does God-given, inherent ability or intelligence. Cultivate a strong aspiration. Finally, life is short. Don't waste time on foolish things (like plotting revenge).

    2-15: People clinging to material things are not able to escape from samsara because (ironically) they are not thinking about their "self" at all (their "big self", that is). They need a broader perspective (i.e. they are part of something bigger than themselves) and rather than focus on fame and profit of the material world, seek the profit of eternal happiness or the fame of a Buddha.

    2-16: I'm going to go out a little farther in this paraphrasing. To me, it seems the message is pretty deep: you are going to die. Period. It's a great fortune that you have a human form and can access the buddha-dharma and follow the Way. It's a shame that people throw that opportunity away and cling to the material. Make up your mind to practice the way NOW. Everything else needs to take a back seat. How you are going to make a buck tomorrow is not as important as how you practice the Way today. If your practice is interfered with by thoughts of tomorrow's livelihood, how you will clothe yourself in the winter, etc. then despite your outward appearance of following the Way, your efforts are entirely useless! Learn the way NOW (in the morning) and when the evening comes (and it will come inevitably) then you won't mind dying. In fact, you will have already died. This is similar to admonitions I have read elsewhere that tell us to "die on the cushion". "Kill" the self (ego). I may be off base but that was that I took from this passage...

    2-17: Very simply: You have a limited time to pursue the Way. Focus on what's important and cultivate an attitude of aspiration (There's a great Pali word for this: "Chanda" which is aspiration for what is good, skillful and wholesome rather than "tanha" which is the thirsting for pleasant feelings that leads to suffering as per the Four Noble Truths. Many Buddhist newbies confuse the two and ask "How can you want liberation/enlightenment when that's just another desire?" The answer is chanda is good, tanha is bad. Easy-peesy, rice and cheesy...).
    And finally, very applicable here is another famous quote from Dogen Zenji: "Practice as though your hair was on fire!!"

  7. #7

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    2-14
    "In the same way if the aspiration to seek the Way is earnest enough when you practice shikantaza (just sitting), study the koans or meet your teacher, though the aim is high you will hit the mark, and though it is deep you will fish it out. Without arousing such aspiration, how can you complete the great matter of the Buddha-Way in which the samsara of life-and-death is cut off in a single moment?"

    Just keep trying. The stronger my attachment the more I grieve for its loss. Life and death must be the big kahuna

  8. #8

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    2-14: Practice! Do it the best way YOU can. Don't get stuck in any concepts of talent, good, bad or whatever. Your practice is your practice and if you do it wholeheartedly there is nothing more to do.
    Plus you have to see through the concept of impermanence. Which is not some intellectual concept but the whole world that surrounds us. Every attachement bears the grief that loss will bring.

  9. #9

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    2-15: That's a tough one. I interpret it as a call to practice. Open the perspective, realize the interconnectedness and impermanence of all things instead of hunting for worldly profit and fame.

  10. #10

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    2-16: I see two parts in this teaching
    the first part : "It is regrettable to spend our days and nights vainly thinking of our livelihood tomorrow without casting aside the world which should be cast aside, without practicing the Way which should be practiced. Just make up your mind to learn the Way and die today."
    Where Dogen emphasize on just doig what must be done in the moment without anything special to get. It makes me think about a part of the shobogenzo, gyogi, where he speaks about the simple and endless practice of the patriarchs.

    And a second part : "If you ostensibly continue practicing the buddha-dharma but secretly worry about such things as clothing for winter or summer and livelihood for tomorrow or the next year, then despite the appearance of learning the Way opposed to the ordinary world (it is equally useless)".
    Here Dogen clearly tells us, the practice is one part of things. But the "state of mind", or the intentions you get when you practice are also VERY important.

    We just need to practice with sincerity, with flesh and bones as Deshimaru sensei said, and without waiting something special. At least, that's what I humbly see in this talk.

    Gassho,

    Luis

  11. #11

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    2-16
    "Just make up your mind to learn the Way and die today."

    "Without this sort of aspiration, you will be unable to attain the Way regardless of how many millions of years or thousand times of life-and-death you practice. "

    I guess I need to step it up a notch

  12. #12

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    Hi.

    2-14

    True practice of the Way must be easy.
    It depends only on whether one’s aspiration is firmly determined or not. A person who arouses true aspiration and studies as hard as his capacity allows will not fail to attain [the Way].
    Put your whole mind into the practice of the Way.
    Only if you have a mind unconcerned about inferior intelligence or dull faculties, or ignorance or dullness, will you surely attain enlightenment.
    Practice as best you can without concerning yourself about things not important.
    He also say's "if you want to you already have it".

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen

  13. #13

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    2-14

    I believe this. It depends only on whether one’s aspiration is firmly determined or not. A person who arouses true aspiration and studies as hard as his capacity allows will not fail to attain [the Way]. We have to be careful to concentrate on and directly carry out the following practice: first of all, just maintain the aspiration to earnestly seek [the Way]. For example, a person who desires to steal a precious treasure or to beat a powerful enemy or win over a beautiful woman of high nobility will constantly seek an opportunity to accomplish these tasks in any situation or occasion, though various things are changing, since his mind is always occupied with this desire. If his desire is that enthusiastic, he will not fail to fulfill it.
    I think this relates to a lot of people practicing here.

    Only if you have a mind unconcerned about inferior intelligence or dull faculties, or ignorance or dullness, will you surely attain enlightenment.
    The great thing about Treeleaf.

    Precisely because this is reality, the Buddha preached it to all living beings, the patriarchs taught only this truth in their sermons and writings. In my formal speeches and lectures too, I emphasize that impermanence is swift; life-and-death is the great matter. Reflect on this reality again and again in your heart without forgetting it, and without wasting a moment. Put your whole mind into the practice of the Way.
    I just want to say. With all the talk of practicing like your hair is on fire and such, it can cause a little too much goal oriented practice. That's my experience; not what Dogen is saying.

    Remember that you are alive only today in this moment. Other than that, [practice of the Way] is truly easy.
    There ya go.

    2-15
    If they think of fame, they should aspire to obtain the fame of a buddha, a patriarch or an ancient sage. Doing so, wise people in future generations will respect them.
    Yeah. I don't know about that one. Just my experience.

    2-16

    Without this sort of aspiration, you will be unable to attain the Way regardless of how many millions of years or thousand times of life-and-death you practice. If you ostensibly continue practicing the buddha-dharma but secretly worry about such things as clothing for winter or summer and livelihood for tomorrow or the next year, then despite the appearance of learning the Way opposed to the ordinary world (it is equally useless). There could be such a person, but as far as I know such an attitude cannot be in accordance with the teaching of the buddhas and patriarchs.
    Not sure there Dogen huh?

    2-17

    Students of the Way, it goes without saying that you must consider the inevitability of death. Even if you don’t consider this right now, you should be resolved not to waste time and refrain from doing meaningless things. You should spend your time carrying out what is worth doing. Among the things you should do what is the most important? You must understand that all deeds other than those of the buddhas and patriarchs are useless.
    Dogen's writing sometimes rubs me the wrong way. I don't know. I guess it's that he's talking to monks. Different situation.

    Gassho

  14. #14

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    Quote Originally Posted by will

    I just want to say. With all the talk of practicing like your hair is on fire and such, it can cause a little too much goal oriented practice. That's my experience; not what Dogen is saying.
    Taigen Leighton, in his book on Dogen and the Lotus Sutra, offers an interesting comment on this. He quotes a Dogen reference to the last line of the Sandokai that is "Do not waste your [practice] days and nights in vain". Taigen concludes, however, that despite all this emphasis on hard effort and "not wasting time" in practice, "time is useful simply in the interest of the appreciation and expression of all the particular myriad things". In other words, Dogen is encouraging us to not waste time so that we may just fully realize this present time - where we realize that nothing is ultimately possible to waste! 8)

    You can read that at the very bottom of p111 and top of p112 here ...

    http://books.google.com/books?id=uEha2I ... q=&f=false

    Kinda ties in with the next part you quote:

    Remember that you are alive only today in this moment. Other than that, [practice of the Way] is truly easy.

    2-16

    ... but secretly worry about such things as clothing for winter or summer and livelihood for tomorrow or the next year, [/b]
    You know, I almost regret selecting the Zuimonki as the reading assignment. The reason is that Dogen can seem such a hard-ass sometimes, although we have to remember that he is a General trying to keep up his "troops'" morale and spur them on. These passages are meant for monks ... and really seem harsh unless we remember that he is trying to keep his troops' asses on the cushions during the hard, cold, snowy, long, lonely winters in a monastery in the middle of nowhere, day after day. No easy task, unless you preach a little "fire and brimstone", which is what General Dogen does to his men.

    FOR EXAMPLE, I bet all these references to the unimportance of food and clothes ... were because the monks were grumbling about the bad food and the clothes being so poor in the monastery, in the cold and snow ... and Dogen had to keep morale up. So, he emphasized again and again how one must not care about food and clothes. Just a hunch.


    Gassho, J

  15. #15

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    Jundo
    FOR EXAMPLE, I bet all these references to the unimportance of food and clothes ... were because the monks were grumbling about the bad food and the clothes being so poor in the monastery, in the cold and snow ... and Dogen had to keep morale up.
    Good deduction.

    Gassho

  16. #16

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    2-17
    "You should spend your time carrying out what is worth doing. Among the things you should do what is the most important? You must understand that all deeds other than those of the buddhas and patriarchs are useless."

    so, if you act like a buddha, you'll do just fine. Hint: buddhas do a lot of just sitting.

  17. #17

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    Quote Originally Posted by will
    Jundo
    FOR EXAMPLE, I bet all these references to the unimportance of food and clothes ... were because the monks were grumbling about the bad food and the clothes being so poor in the monastery, in the cold and snow ... and Dogen had to keep morale up.
    Good deduction.

    Gassho
    What's more, Dogen's monks in those days were a hodgepodge of refugees with various backgrounds, some who were almost forced into studying with Dogen because their own teacher (who taught in a different style from Dogen) was outlawed by the government.

    You can read more about that here (please read from the bottom of page 32 "Dogen's charisma probably met its greatest challenge" ... to the end of page 34.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=BnLOFw ... hu&f=false

    Herding cats!

    The change in Dogen's writing style in his later years may be due in good part to this ... Summarized here ...

    The picture of the latter years of Dogen emerges as that of a man struggling with disciples who had come to him already trained in doctrines of Original Enlightenment, Japanese esoteric Buddhism (mikkyo), and the naturalism of the Daruma school, whose understanding of Buddhism was swayed by these traditions in ways of which Dogen did not approve and that Dogen was unable to counter conclusively. Significantly, this was also a time in which the growing Pure Land tradition was questioning the value of the monastic vinaya. This context would explain the evolution in his writing from his early dynamic engagement with contemporary Buddhist issues to a dogmatic condemnation of doctrines, practices, and teachers during his later years. His late emphasis on the training of his disciples at the Eihei-ji may be evidence of a kind of desperation to leave behind at least something of his original vision. In this sense Professor Sugio may be right in seeing Dogen's final intention for the Shobogenzo as a legacy to future generations. But, as we have seen, this is a highly ambiguous and controversial legacy, in light of the problem of which part of the Shobogenzo represents the "true" Dogen.
    http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Dog ... putney.htm
    You can read about the Daruma-shu and Dogen in greater detail here ...

    http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Dog ... _Soto.html

    My point is that Dogen had to herd cats, keep all these very different and disagreeing people motivated, unified somehow. He had them practicing in ways that were different from their earlier teachers, and with which some of them might have had personal and doctrinal disagreements. He had to avoid "Mutiny on the Bounty" on the S.S. Eiheiji.

    This all contributed to a change in Dogen in his later years ... He became more the tough captain to keep the sailors in line.

    This is the Dogen who shines through in the Zuimonki, which is largely from that period.

    Gassho, Jundo (also who has to herd some cats around here ... one of whom is named "Will" :P )

  18. #18

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    Thanks for posting the links.

    Meow.

    W

  19. #19

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    Hi Jundo,

    Are you familiar with Senne and Kyogo's commentary on the Shobogenzo (i.e. the Gokikigakisho or Gosho) and do you happen to know if it's available in English (or German)? It's something I've been wanting to look into since reading about it in Bodiford's book, but I haven't managed to find it yet.

    Gassho
    Bansho

  20. #20

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    A summation for me is as follows:
    The only reality is now – all is impermanent- let our fear of death leave us- awaken fully to life now- pledge not to waste a moment –resolve to practise the way in each precious moment – vow to follow the precepts in each of these dear moments -all this through the realisation that we are sufficient in this moment.

  21. #21

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    2-18
    “If we are free from holding on to what we have yet do not seek after what we don’t have, either way is all right. Still, it would be better to mend torn clothing, in order to keep it for as long as possible and not pursue acquiring new clothing.”

    Sorry, I'm jumping ahead. Maybe I was a Dogen monk in a previous life cause I've had some clothes for over 20 years :lol:

  22. #22

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    Quote Originally Posted by chugai
    So I've been reading a bit on the Dragon Gods --- http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/hachi-bushu.shtml

    Would it be correct to just treat these stories as mythical folklore?
    Hi Chugai,

    The short answer is that ... from the time Buddhism began in ancient India (right in the very earliest writings and stories attributed to the Buddha, although not written down for centuries after his death, but certainly from the start) ... Buddhism contained in its Suttas references to hundreds of traditional Indian gods (small 'g'), devils, spirits, creatures and the like. As the religion moved on to old China, then medieval Japan and such, it incorporated and found room for countless local spirits and deities from those cultures. In Japan, the Shinto religion and Buddhism were practically merged in many way, until about 150 years ago (most Zen temples in Japan will still have a Shinto Shrine somewhere in the temple). Dogen's 13th century writings are filled with references to many Japanese deities and spirits.

    The link you posted is an excellent example (one of the best collections on the internet, by the way, of "who's who" in Buddhist art).

    Now, are they real? Are they just "myth"? Are they cultural expressions of ancient peoples that, yet, express some deep "truths" about the human and natural condition (as expressed, for example, by Joseph Cambell's "The Power of Myth") ...

    I will fetch wood and carry water on that one too ... although I am pretty much in the "Joseph Cambell" camp. I once wrote this about Santa Claus ...

    Actually, I had a hard time, for many years, incorporating into my practice many figures such as Kannon and Jizo (and many of the more arcane rituals and customs of Buddhism such as some chants and ceremonies directed to these very same "folks").

    I have some cautions I would offer both to people who say (a) these things do exist in a concrete way, and those folks who say (b) they do not. While both those extremes may be correct (only the universe knows for sure, and I remain an open minded mystic-skeptic), I have come to see "them" as archtypes, representing real characteristics of human life and (since we are just the universe) thus the universe.

    In other words, in a nutshell: When we feel in our hearts and act upon love and compassion, thereby love and compassion exists as a real, concrete aspect of the world which our hearts and acts create. And since, in our view, there is no "inside" or "outside" ultimately, what is inside you is just as much "the universe" and concrete reality as the moon, gravity and the stars. That is "Kannon", in that way a real and concrete aspect and 'force' of the world.

    I believe in Buddhist Heavens and Hells, Buddhas (apart from the historical Shakyamuni) and Boddhisattvas, and all the rest of the Buddhist cosmology, in much the spirit of that famous essay ... "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus". Did you ever read that? A little girl wrote to a newspaper editor, back in 1897, saying that she'd heard from friends that there is no Santa Claus. "Is it true?", she asked. Part of the response ran like this ...

    What? You don't believe in Santa Claus?

    GassHo Ho Ho, Jundo


    VIRGINIA, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except [what] they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

    Yes, VIRGINIA, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no VIRGINIAS. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

    http://www.newseum.org/yesvirginia/
    You may also want to take a quick peak here (the talk is gone ... but click on the link that says "WATCH O-HARAI CEREMONY" ...

    http://blog.beliefnet.com/treeleafzen/2 ... ing-1.html

    When we first moved into the old farm that is Treeleaf Japan, and mostly on my Japanese wife's insistence, we had the Shinto Priest out to "appease" the spirits attached to the land, and cleans the place.

    Did it help? Was it true?

    As an old joke goes ... "It sure couldn't hurt". ...

    Gassho, J

  23. #23
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    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    Hi all,

    Some thoughts:

    2-13 -- My first thought after reading this section was, "Is he talking about what I think he's talking about?" Yes and no...certainly a monk should be discreet while in the changing room, but here I think Dogen is using it as a metaphor to carry the precepts with us wherever we go. Basically, practice what you preach. Off stage or on stage we are always in the spotlight.

    2-14 -- I had to look up the definition of "sagacity"; guess I wasn't keen enough! I have often thought that those with a lot of book learning who are full of thoughts, facts, and figures could have difficulty studying the Way because of everything that must be unlearned, but to Dogen it doesn't really matter if you are sharp or dull. If you are truthful with yourself and your teacher, there is nothing in such distinctions that bears upon walking the path.

    2-15 -- I must admit this one left me confused since the point seemed to be that you shouldn't seek fame or profit. However, Dogen also seemed to say that those who did think of such things should just relate them to becoming a buddha. If I study the Way I could become a wise sage who is deeply respected, but if that were even a whisper of a thought, I doubt another moment should be spent thinking about it. So, either he's saying fame and profit are meaningless and took some poetic license or I missed the point entirely...probably more likely the latter.

    2-16 -- This section touches upon an area of existence that I still struggle with often: death. I had previously thought that the Way teaches us to accept that death could come at any moment and that such should never be a concern. I'll admit right off that the thought of dying today scares me with so much uncertainty, although I do know intellectually that this keeps me clinging to this body and this life. Despite that, I have not been able to let that fear go and I imagine that even an experienced practioner would have such moments. It is undoubtedly the one thing that will challenge me the most and I cannot currently conceive of how I could be less fearful. This section also deals with clinging to things besides death like where money will come from and how I will making a living in the future. Perhaps not as fearful, but clinging all the same.

    2-17 -- This was Dogen's response to the questions raised in the last section: death happens...to everyone...that's it. Don't run from it, embrace it.

  24. #24

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    Quote Originally Posted by Bansho
    Hi Jundo,

    Are you familiar with Senne and Kyogo's commentary on the Shobogenzo (i.e. the Gokikigakisho or Gosho) and do you happen to know if it's available in English (or German)? It's something I've been wanting to look into since reading about it in Bodiford's book, but I haven't managed to find it yet.

    Gassho
    Bansho
    Hi B,

    I received this information from the person I mentioned to you ...

    As to the Gosho, I totally agree that it would be great to have all of that in English. Alas, I do not expect that in my lifetime. However, I know that there are excerpts of it around that I have seen. I believe Shohaku Okumura may have translated some sections, and perhaps Kaz Tanahashi. I have seen the Gosho commentary on Genjokoan somewhere. You might contact Shohaku or Kaz to see what they have from the Gosho.

  25. #25

    Re: 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17

    Hi Jundo,

    OK, I suspected something along those lines. Thanks very much for the clarification.

    Gassho
    Bansho

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