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Thread: 8/8 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-10 to 2-12

  1. #1

    8/8 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-10 to 2-12

    Hi,

    Because the schedule this week is a bit delayed, I am only going to put up 3 sections ... 2-10 to 2-12 ...

    This will also let some other folks catch up a bit.

    Gassho, J

  2. #2

    Re: 8/8 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-10 to 2-12

    2-10
    "One who appears to be an ordinary person of the world, and goes on harmonizing his inner mind is a person of true bodhi-mind."

    In a moment, returning to balance and harmony.

  3. #3

    Re: 8/8 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-10 to 2-12

    2-11
    "Even if someone has made an attempt on your life, if he asks sincerely to hear the true Way, you must not hold a grudge but explain the dharma to him. "

    You mean after they are restrained or in jail

  4. #4
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    Re: 8/8 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-10 to 2-12

    Hi all,

    Some thoughts before I take the newly expanded family on a road trip to see my folks:

    2-10 -- Two common sayings come to mind in this section..."In for a penny, in for a pound" and "Don't judge a book by its cover'. Both are cliches, but as I often remind myself as a parent, we do want our kids to believe in such things. If you are a buddhist, does anyone else but you really need to know? Not really and if you feel that recognition is important that could be a problem. The part about walking in the rain made me laugh since I think a way of seeking recognition can be to do things that seem very zennie, but they have no real meaning. Be a buddhist or not, but don't worry about the accompanying bling!

    2-11 -- I was thinking about the themes in this section when I heard that the convicted bomber of Pan Am 103 had been freed on compassionate grounds, leading to anger among many of the families who felt that such a man deserved none. However, one man who had lost his daughter felt that showing compassion to someone you felt great anger towards was the right thing to do. I don't know if I could feel that way in his shoes, but I'd like to think so. Similarly, here were should always give freely of ourselves and the dharma even to those who have "wronged" us, perhaps especially so. Also, I must admit that I often am embarrassed by the fact that I do not know more about the dharma during certain forum discussions, but Dogen says such feelings are nonsense. Share what you know and admit what you don't, but don't seek praise or display false modesty.

    2-12 -- Simply, give no thought to what others think of you, but don't use that as license to never consider others and act like an ass.

    Gassho,
    Dosho

  5. #5

    Re: 8/8 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-10 to 2-12

    Hi.

    2-10

    One who appears to be an ordinary person of the world, and goes on harmonizing his inner mind is a person of true bodhi-mind.

    Therefore, an Ancient said, “Empty inside, following along outside.” This means being without ego-centric mind inside and getting along with others outside. If you completely forget your own body and mind, enter into the buddha-dharma, and keep practicing in accordance with the laws of the buddha-dharma, you will be good both inwardly and outwardly in the present and the future.
    This is also stated in the "no self, no problem" by anam Thubten (an tibetan monk) but he uses the phrase "Colourful on the outside, grey on the inside". Nevertheless, it is still true. One thing gives the other.
    If you begin doing, others will follow. Until there's nothing left.

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen

  6. #6

    Re: 8/8 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-10 to 2-12

    Hi.

    2-11

    Students of the Way, it is of no value to be known by people in the secular world as a person of wisdom or wide knowledge.
    Everything has a value, even the head of an dead cat.
    You just have to know how the put it forth.

    When you read Buddhist scriptures, if you understand the meaning of the sentences phrase by phrase, you will grasp the reality expressed through the words. However, people tend to pay attention to the writing styles—such as antitheses, rhythms, and tones. They judge them as good or bad, and then think about the meaning as an afterthought. Therefore, it is better to understand the meaning from the beginning without caring about such things.
    It's always better to get in the water and experiencing it, than judging it from it's attributes.
    But what about fire?

    People of the Way who truly devote themselves to practice should not read even the collections of the recorded saying of the Zen masters.
    This might be a catch-22 you might think, to encourage people not to read the written...
    not so, i would say.
    What he's saying is "dont read with the wrong mind", when you're not "people/students of the way" you can read...

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen

  7. #7

    Re: 8/8 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-10 to 2-12

    Hi.

    2-12

    Drop all thoughts of self and others.
    Just be according to the Buddha-dharma.

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen

  8. #8

    Re: 8/8 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-10 to 2-12

    With regard to actions and speech in society, today in this country many people are concerned with personal fame and reputation
    Same deal today! Narcissism is alive and well and one must be on guard not to get swept up in it.

    Let people think whatever they may think. Let them even call you crazy. If you spend your whole life practicing in accordance the Buddha-Way and refrain from what goes against the Buddha-dharma, you needn’t worry about what people think about you.
    A good point, but sometimes difficult to pull off….I am going to the fabric store this afternoon to buy materials for my Rakusu… It will be interesting to see what the reaction will be from the clerk who helps me out.

    Gassho,
    BrianW

  9. #9

    Re: 8/8 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-10 to 2-12

    2-10: That's a great chapter. Again, to me, it talks about not being attached to the judgements of the outside world. If you practice the path, just do it. Not for fame, profit or whatever. There is nothing to attain, only the path to walk.
    And on the other this chapter points out that even thought you practice the way you can be a member of the society around you. Interact with people, live a regular life etc. No need to stop all that. “Empty inside, following along outside.” - so much wisdom in so few words.

  10. #10

    Re: 8/8 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-10 to 2-12

    2-12
    "They think good-bad, right-wrong, and consider that if they do one thing others will think well of them or if they do something else others will think poorly of them. They even worry about the future. This is entirely wrong. "

    In taking care of yourself helping others will nATURALLY ARISE.
    mY WORRY METER IS NOT ZERO BUT i'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT IT

  11. #11

    Re: 8/8 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-10 to 2-12

    OK -- I've finally caught up!! (whew!)

    Jundo asked us to try to relate Dogen's words to our every day lives. So here I go...

    Chapter 2-10:
    This is a VERY applicable chapter for modern Zen practitioners.
    Dogen points out that it is very easy in a world where folks are taken by outward appearances (money, fame, power) for people to fail to appreciate someone who is possessed of bhodi-mind. Consequently, this exerts a distracting force that drags down the student of the Way.
    In the modern world this can be compared to the influence of modern media that stresses personal profit over selfless awareness and compassion for others.
    After all, in a capitalistic world what value does altruism hold? What is the cash equivalent of the bramaviharas?
    Can you truly have joy for another's success without jealousy? And even if you can, what value does that hold for anyone else besides you?
    Would you want credit for having sympathetic joy and if so, would that be the essence of the Way?

    But Dogen points out that it isn't enough to just work on "harmonizing the mind", you have to maintain outward appearances as well!
    So in other words: putting on a hair shirt and secluding yourself in a cave and not bathing so that you can claim liberation from the material world is delusion.
    Striding about in the rain because you're "not attached to the world" is foolishness.
    There's a scene in "Big Trouble in Little China" where one character says to an old Chinese wizard "The brave man likes the feel of the weather upon his face!" to which the old wizard replies "But the wise man knows when to come in out of the rain."

    Acting as if how others see you isn't important and calling it "abandoning the self" is wrong.
    (So if your attitude is "F*** what you think, I'm Zen Buddhist so I don't give a crap about your opinion" you're missing the mark entirely.)

    There are some people who are prominent Buddhist teachers that revel in the fact that the Buddha went "against the stream"; that he was a "rebel".
    They use that kernel of the Buddha's teaching as a rationalization to afford themselves latitude in their behavior. In other words, to justify bad acts that break the precepts and say it's because you are "beyond the material world" or some other nonsense is just crap.
    Not having consideration for how others view you is in itself ego-centric!
    There's a really fine line between not letting other's opinions control your behavior and not being considerate of other's opinions.

    I can think of a couple of prominent Zen teachers who play hopscotch with this line frequently. I'm sure you can too!
    And it looks like it was going on all the way back when Dogen wrote this chapter! (see quote below):
    Among those who are famous as men of the buddha-dharma or of bodhi-mind, there are some who do not consider how others see them and behave badly without any reason...
    "Empty inside, following along outside" would mean avoiding ego-centric activities while vibrantly engaging in the world.

    I really like this passage as it clearly points out that isolation from the world is not the way.
    This dovetails quite well with Treeleaf Zendo's motto "life is our temple".
    Most of us are "normal" people living ordinary lives with ordinary limitations.
    Feeling bad because you can't get away from your routine life to spend 90 days at Tassajara Zen Center is ridiculous.
    (http://www.sfzc.org/tassajara/displa...eid=486&mode=c)

    Abandoning your responsibilities and using Zen practice as an excuse is the very definition of ignorance.
    Living the life you have and actualizing your Zen practice within that life is the true essence of the way. (IMHO!)
    One who appears to be an ordinary person of the world, and goes on harmonizing his inner mind is a person of true bodhi-mind.

  12. #12

    Re: 8/8 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-10 to 2-12

    Chapter 2-11

    Boy, we could all stand to hear this advice over and over, eh?
    Roughly translated, I think what Dogen Zenji is trying to say in the first paragraph is:
    Unless someone asks you about Zen, shut the hell up about Zen!
    (The first rule of Zen club: nobody talks about Zen club...) :P

    Until someone specifically asks for your input, you should probably just say "I don't know".
    But then if someone sincerely wants to know, no matter how you personally feel about that someone, you should explain the dharma.

    How many useless hours of chatter have we poured into presenting facts, details and opinions to folks who never asked us for them?!

    Also in this passage is an admonition not to be too attached to the written word.
    Book-learnin' is all well and good but don't think the big "secret of life" is to be found in the next Zen tome you order off Amazon.com!
    As Bodidharma pointed out "A special transmission outside the scriptures, not founded on words and letters..."

    But can we really get behind this suggestion?!:
    People of the Way who truly devote themselves to practice should not read even the collections of the recorded saying of the Zen masters. You should understand through this example the uselessness of other kinds of books.
    I suppose if you are a monk and living day in and day out in the presence of a True Master of the Way then reading the collected saying of other masters would probably be a hindrance to your understanding. But as a layperson... not sure I can make this applicable to my "modern life".
    I like Fugen's interpretation (in his above post regarding this quote). "Don't read the words with the wrong mind".

  13. #13

    Re: 8/8 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-10 to 2-12

    Chapter 2-12

    Seems to me the message here is: practice, practice, practice.
    Don't worry so much about what others think; just commit yourself wholeheartedly to the Way.

    And then a reinforcement of the message from 2-10 about not using Zen as an excuse to be a butthead:
    On the other hand, it is wrong to shamelessly indulge yourself and do evil things, trying to excuse yourself on the grounds that it does not matter if others think ill of you. Just practice wholeheartedly in accordance with the buddha-dharma, paying no attention to how others see you. In the buddha-dharma such indulgence and shamelessness is prohibited.

  14. #14

    Re: 8/8 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-10 to 2-12

    2-11: This is a funny one, or maybe let's call it paradox.

    People of the Way who truly devote themselves to practice should not read even the collections of the recorded saying of the Zen masters. You should understand through this example the uselessness of other kinds of books.
    So here we are, reading an online-book about the uselessness of reading a book. Nice!
    I see this chapter as a call to action. To actually sit down on the cushion. Like it was said here before: it's a difference to read a book about swimming or to actually jump into the water.
    Dogen wants to point the people to the real deal. Zazen is not an intellectual practice, it can't be learned from books (if it can be learned at all?).

  15. #15

    Re: 8/8 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-10 to 2-12

    Quote Originally Posted by StephanCOH
    2-11: This is a funny one, or maybe let's call it paradox.

    People of the Way who truly devote themselves to practice should not read even the collections of the recorded saying of the Zen masters. You should understand through this example the uselessness of other kinds of books.
    So here we are, reading an online-book about the uselessness of reading a book. Nice!
    I see this chapter as a call to action. To actually sit down on the cushion. Like it was said here before: it's a difference to read a book about swimming or to actually jump into the water.
    Dogen wants to point the people to the real deal. Zazen is not an intellectual practice, it can't be learned from books (if it can be learned at all?).
    But without books and teachings, and Buddhist philosophy, it is like shapeless clay.

    The books are not the problem (Dogen was a great reader or Buddhist literature) ... it is reading the books as dry words without putting into practice. Taigen Leighton, a Soto priest and great Dogenologist, writes about this (using some 50-cent big words) ...

    [In the essay in Sh?b?genz? “Hokke-Ten-Hokke” [The Dharma Flower Turns the Dharma
    Flower]], D?gen celebrates the value of sutras while explicitly responding to the Zen
    axiom about sutra study that privileges direct mind-to-mind teaching above
    study of words and letters.

    The essay centers on a dialogue from the Platform Sutra in which the Ch’an Sixth Ancestor, Hui-neng, tells a monk who has mem-
    orized the Lotus Sutra that this monk does not understand the sutra. Hui-neng
    says to the monk, “When the mind is in delusion, the Flower of Dharma turns.
    When the mind is in realization, we turn the Flower of Dharma” (Nishijima
    and Cross, p. 208). D?gen clarifies how this story implies the necessity
    for an awakened hermeneutical approach to the active, practical applications of
    sutra study, rather than being caught by reified scriptural formulations.

    http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:7J ... en&ct=clnk
    Once again, Dogen speaks out of both sides of no sided mouth.

    Gassho, Jundo

  16. #16

    Re: 8/8 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-10 to 2-12

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    The books are not the problem (Dogen was a great reader or Buddhist literature) ... it is reading the books as dry words without putting into practice.
    Gassho

  17. #17

    Re: 8/8 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-10 to 2-12

    2-12: The core-sentence (to me) is:
    Just practice wholeheartedly in accordance with the buddha-dharma, paying no attention to how others see you.
    Do not base your deeds on the judgement of other people. But, as kliffkapus said allready, this is no excuse for being super-lazy, rude or whatever.

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