Tugas Gunadarma Gunadarma Tutorial VB.NET Download OST Anime Soundtrack Anime Opening Anime Ending Anime OST Anime Japan Download Lagu Anime Jepang

Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

  1. #1

    7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    Hello Footballers,

    It is helpful to keep in mind that this week's talks, 1-16 to 1-20, were directed at monks, not householding folks ... and are something of "football locker room pep talks" to the players.

    Dogen could come across, like many Zen coaches in the heat of practice for the big game, like a hard-ass, spurring on his players. I am not sure who a famous "soccer" coach would be (being an ignorant Yank ... I googled "Alex Ferguson" and "Raymond Domenech"), but Dogen could be the Vince Lombardi of American football. Hard as nails and taking no compromise ... except when he wasn't.

    I don't think it necessary to take Dogen literally here. Dogen's philosophy that "all our daily deeds are Zazen" can apply quite well to those of us with diapers to change and reports to write for the boss. In fact, Dogen often took that tone more in his writings to his lay followers, many of which we will come across in other sections of Zuimonki. So, no need to take literally his admonitions today ... such as in 1-16 ... that we'd all best get out our begging bowls and "Buddha will provide for us". Working for a living, and a paycheck to feed the family, can be one's "begging bowl" too.

    As I often underline, many of these talks were for 13th Century Japanese monks living in a monastery ... thus, monk-ing was their career as much as your career is yours. I am sure your own boss sounds as 'hard-ass' about getting that report done as Dogen sounds to his 'employees' sometimes.

    Enjoy! (The readings are a little long in length this week).

    Gassho, The Gipper

  2. #2

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    Hi.

    1-16

    Someone asked, “Although fame and profit are difficult to give up, since pursuing them is a great obstruction to practicing the Way, they should be abandoned. Hence, I gave them up.
    Did he really? Remember the story about the two monks meeting a girl at a stream and helped her over...

    Someone advised me saying, ‘Your way of practice is extreme. You don’t understand this age and do not reflect upon your capability. Our nature is inferior and this is the degenerate-age 3 . If you continue to practice in such a way, it will become a cause of backsliding from the Way. Seek the support of some patron, take care of your body by living in a quiet place without worrying about food or clothing, and practice the Buddha Way peacefully. This is not greed for property or belongings. You should practice after having provided for your temporal means of livelihood.’

    Although I listened to his advice, I do not yet believe it. How should we consider these things?”

    Dogen replied, “Just study carefully the conduct of Zen monks, along with the lifestyle of the buddhas and patriarchs. Although the customs of the three countries are different, those who truly study the Way have never practiced in the manner you have described. Just do not be attached to worldly affairs but study the Way in a straightforward manner.”
    Each in his own way, there is no other way...
    It's as he says later on
    We simply have to use as much wisdom as we possess.
    Each one of us has buddha-nature.
    This reminds me of a Hakuin poem...

    All beings are Buddha by nature,
    just as water and ice are the same.
    Without water there’s no ice,
    outside of beings, no Buddha.


    http://fugenblog.blogspot.com/2009/06/hakuin-poem.html

    Not to forget.
    But what is outside?

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen

    And the attachment is important...

  3. #3

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    1-16
    "Do not store up even what you have been given, nor run around searching for things."

    Suzy Orman says to save 8 months expenses in case you lose your income
    My job involves running around searching for things. Sorry about that, Dogen. :lol:

  4. #4

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich
    1-16
    "Do not store up even what you have been given, nor run around searching for things."

    Suzy Orman says to save 8 months expenses in case you lose your income
    My job involves running around searching for things. Sorry about that, Dogen. :lol:
    An interesting contrast to Master Dogen's advice to his monks is Guatama Buddha's advice to householders on a moderate and frugal lifestyle, which was raised today on another thread. Please have a look if you have not seen that.

    viewtopic.php?p=26014#p26014

    Gassho, Jundo

  5. #5

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    1-17
    "Only a few eccentric and immoral monks engage in such indecent talk. "

    The last thing you want is a few monks coming into town talking lewd and wantin you know what.

  6. #6

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    1-18 "Do good things secretly while people are not watching, and if you make a mistake or do something bad, confess and repent of it. "

    "Do good things secretly while people are not watching" - I think this can include not doing bad things while people are not watching. Think: Which people? Should you consider the ones who are present but not watching or the ones who are not present? Or both? I think "not watching" can also be thought of as "not paying attention", "not being on the same wavelength", "not understanding"... something like that.

    I think that "good things" should be considered in a very broad sense, very generally... like not just boyscout good deeds, but things like being patient, being polite, being proactive... etc. (wise conduct, I suppose). How can wise conduct be done secretively? Do not assume anyone will notice and do not value acknowledgment. If nobody notices, then its a secret. If you crave acknowledgment, you will blow your cover. Someone might notice and someone might give credit, but thoughts about these things should be abandoned.

    "if you make a mistake or do something bad, confess and repent of it." - If you let the cat out of the bag, you can truly forgive yourself.

    I think mistakes and bad deeds are generally straightforward, but maybe not simple, to handle... confess, repent, forgive yourself, move on.


    Cam

  7. #7

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    1-18
    ". For example, they revere and make offerings to monks who observe the precepts and eat in accordance with the regulations (one meal before noon) while in public eyes, but they withhold offerings to shameless monks who break the precepts, drink liquor, and eat meat, judging them to be worthless. This biased discriminating mind goes entirely against the spirit of the Buddha.

    Help everyone, don't discriminate.

  8. #8

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    1-16:
    "Do not store up even what you have been given, nor run around searching for things."
    This sentence got me. I am easily drawn to collect stuff. Comics, toys, sneakers, cds or vinyl etc. It's good to have a reminder that these are nice things, but they are not as important as they sometimes seem to be.

    Another part of the chapter ("In this world, inherently each person receives a certain amount of food and clothing as a gift. It does not come by being sought after nor does it stop coming by not seeking after it. Just leave it to fate and do not worry about it.") sounds a little strange to me. To be honest, this sounds like complete nonsense to me and I just have to take look around to see that.

    1-17:
    Don't talk about lewd-things. Can be fun for a second, but can cause intense pain and misery for a much longer time.

    1-18:
    Don't do good because you want to be rewarded. Do everything as good and with as much passion as you can. If you fail, do it better next time. If you succeed, that's your reward.

    1-19:
    Help other people, but do not do it to feel good about it (which is just another way of ego-attachement).

  9. #9

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    Hi.

    1-17

    Needless to say, monks must concern themselves only with the Buddha-Way.
    What is not "the Buddha-way"?

    In the Scriptures, it is said, “Though coarse and violent actions may sometimes cause people to wake up, worthless speech obstructs the true Way.” Be it even a word which comes to the lips unintentionally, useless talk hinders the Way
    What is "worthless" and "useless", and to what/whom?

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen

  10. #10

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    Hi.

    1-18

    Most people in the world want to show off their good deeds and hide their bad deeds.
    Therefore, without discriminating between good monks and bad ones, respect all the Buddha’s disciples, make offerings and take refuge with a spirit of equality.
    What is "good"/"bad"?
    And to what/whom?
    Do not separate between hot and cold...

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen

  11. #11

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    Hi.

    1-19

    In each situation that you are faced with, just consider carefully; do anything which will bring even a little benefit to the person who is before you, without concern for what people will think of you. Even if you become estranged from your friends or quarrel with them because they say you did something bad and unbecoming of a monk, it is not important. It would be better to break off with such narrow-minded people. Even though outwardly it may seem to other people that you are doing something improper, the primary concern should be to break off your ego-attachment inwardly and throw away any desire for fame.
    if you throw away your concern for fame and bring even a little benefit to others, you correspond with the true Way.
    And, although it is apparently wrong, if you have a friend who respects you and whom you feel you could not go against, either for good or bad, and he requests your support to do something wrong and unacceptable through you, listen to his request once, and in your letter write that you have been asked importunately, and that the matter should be dealt with reasonably. If you treat each situation in this way, no one will hold a grudge. You must consider things like this very meticulously in every encounter or situation. The primary concern is to cast aside the desire for fame and ego-attachment in whatever situation.”
    It's as the nike slogan says: Just do it.
    If this happens, do this.
    If that happens, do that.

    but remember the words of Yoda, "Just do or do not".
    No atachments, just do it.

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen

  12. #12

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    Hi.

    1-20

    This is the reality before our eyes. You do not need to wait for the teaching of masters or sutras to see it.
    How does this correspond with "be a lamp unto yourself"? :twisted:

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen

  13. #13

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    Our life changes moment by moment, it flows by swiftly day by day. Everything is impermanent and rapidly changing […..] In every moment do not expect that tomorrow will come. Think only of this day and this moment. Since the future is uncertain, and you cannot foresee what will happen, you should resolve to follow the Buddha-Way, if only for today, while you are alive.
    This passage really stood out as I find it really challenging, at times, to live in the moment. Obviously this could be taken to the extreme, where living only in the moment would be absurd (e.g., not considering the future consequences of your behavior). Nevertheless, to rid oneself of anxiety for the future and regrets of the past can be quite difficult.

  14. #14

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    1-19
    "The primary concern is to cast aside the desire for fame and ego-attachment in whatever situation.”

    Just sitting mind is the beginning of the end of the desire for fame and ego-attachment.

  15. #15

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    1-20
    You should consider things only for the sake of the flourishing of the dharma and the benefit of living beings, all the time and in whatever situation. Speak after making careful consideration; act after giving attentive thought; do not act rashly. Ponder over what is reasonable in whatever situation you encounter. Our life changes moment by moment, it flows by swiftly day by day. Everything is impermanent and changing rapidly. This is the reality before our eyes. You do not need to wait for the teaching of masters or sutras to see it. In every moment, do not expect tomorrow will come. Think only of this day and this moment. Since the future is very much uncertain, and you cannot foresee what will happen, you should resolve to follow the Buddha-Way, if only for today, while you are alive.
    That's it for me. Be careful in your acting, act in a way that fits the situation. Do it now, expect nothing, just be here.

  16. #16

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW
    ... I find it really challenging, at times, to live in the moment. Obviously this could be taken to the extreme, where living only in the moment would be absurd (e.g., not considering the future consequences of your behavior). Nevertheless, to rid oneself of anxiety for the future and regrets of the past can be quite difficult.
    Yes. I have a somewhat not obvious definition of what it means to "be in the moment" in this practice:

    My definition of being "in the moment" is just "being with however this life-world is at any moment". When life's roller coaster is up, go up. When heading down, head down. Just ride the ride.

    Yes, coming to see the ordinary and non-special things of life as just jewels of life, both the joys and disappointments ... embracing all the ups and downs of the dream-like roller coaster ride (we are the coaster and the dreaming!) ... --is-- the most special of special ways to be.

    Up down up down goes the roller coaster, and our way is to see it for the ride it is. Yippee! We even drop all thought of "up down up down" as we go "up down up down". On real roller coasters, I used to get all tight in my stomach as if twisted up ... I hated it. Then, one day, I tried Zazen on a terrifying coaster and all the tension was gone ... Now, I even like roller coasters (once I get past the stomach twistings). :wink:

    This is all life ... if it is not a divorce or a sick kid or job problem, if it is not this problem or that problem or some other problem ... it would not be life! It is no joy to think so at the time, but it is true. The Buddha taught that we can be liberated amid the changes if we allow each one, embracing the ups and downs, not demanding that life move according to our standards and expectations. If we just flow along with the roller coaster ride of life's wild ride .... up down up down ... well, that bumpy ride is our life! (Still bumpy, scarey, and sometimes bringing us to tears ... but out life!) Up down up down goes the roller coaster, and our way is to see it for the ride it is ... dropping all thought of "up down up down" as we go "up down up down" Buddha ... Yippee!

    That, in my view, is being "in the moment"

    Gassho, J

  17. #17

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW
    ... I find it really challenging, at times, to live in the moment. Obviously this could be taken to the extreme, where living only in the moment would be absurd (e.g., not considering the future consequences of your behavior). Nevertheless, to rid oneself of anxiety for the future and regrets of the past can be quite difficult.
    Yes. I have a somewhat not obvious definition of what it means to "be in the moment" in this practice:

    My definition of being "in the moment" is just "being with however this life-world is at any moment". When life's roller coaster is up, go up. When heading down, head down. Just ride the ride.

    Yes, coming to see the ordinary and non-special things of life as just jewels of life, both the joys and disappointments ... embracing all the ups and downs of the dream-like roller coaster ride (we are the coaster and the dreaming!) ... --is-- the most special of special ways to be.

    Up down up down goes the roller coaster, and our way is to see it for the ride it is. Yippee! We even drop all thought of "up down up down" as we go "up down up down". On real roller coasters, I used to get all tight in my stomach as if twisted up ... I hated it. Then, one day, I tried Zazen on a terrifying coaster and all the tension was gone ... Now, I even like roller coasters (once I get past the stomach twistings). :wink:

    This is all life ... if it is not a divorce or a sick kid or job problem, if it is not this problem or that problem or some other problem ... it would not be life! It is no joy to think so at the time, but it is true. The Buddha taught that we can be liberated amid the changes if we allow each one, embracing the ups and downs, not demanding that life move according to our standards and expectations. If we just flow along with the roller coaster ride of life's wild ride .... up down up down ... well, that bumpy ride is our life! (Still bumpy, scarey, and sometimes bringing us to tears ... but out life!) Up down up down goes the roller coaster, and our way is to see it for the ride it is ... dropping all thought of "up down up down" as we go "up down up down" Buddha ... Yippee!

    That, in my view, is being "in the moment"

    Gassho, J
    Hi.

    _/_
    Yes.
    But not to forget, the important thing is to be in this moment, not chasing after others...
    To be here (and there at the same time) and not wander off.
    As someone put it, When this happens, do this! When that happens do that!

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen

  18. #18

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugen
    _/_
    Yes.
    But not to forget, the important thing is to be in this moment, not chasing after others...
    To be here (and there at the same time) and not wander off.
    As someone put it, When this happens, do this! When that happens do that!

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen
    Yes but but ... as I often say, sometimes to be "in this moment" means that we are to be "in this moment planning the future, or learning from the past". I sometimes say something like this ...

    [Folks encounter lots of Zen teachings like the one mentioned by Master Seung Sahn, "when you eat, just eat. When you sleep just sleep..."] But I think that Master Seung Sahn's phrasing, like many Zen books and expressions, can sound rather idealistic if it implies that we must be "mindful" or in "Zen Mind" 24/7. My view is more balanced I think, namely, "when mindful of one thing, just be mindful of one thing ... when distracted, overwrought and multi-tasking, just be distracted, overwrought and multi-task". There is a time for everything, and we cannot be "mindful" each minute. All of it is life.

    However, one of the great fruits of our Zen Practice is that, even when we are distracted, overwrought and multi-tasking, feeling completely miserable and off balance ... and even when "Zen Mind" feels very far away ... we can still know it is 'there' even if we do not feel it at that moment [the blue sky always behind the clouds]. So I say, when feeling completely "miserable and off balance", just be "miserable and off balance" in that moment ... it too is a temporary state of mind.

    So, in other words, have a balanced and realistic view of life ... even a balanced view of sometimes or frequently being unbalanced, overworked, distracted and such.

    When falling on your butt in the mud because you were thinking about "mindfulness" ... JUST DO THAT! IT TOO IS A PERFECT ACT IN THAT MOMENT!!
    and

    [T]o survive in life we have to think about outcomes, tomorrow, yesterday and even multi-task sometimes! So, we cannot live much or most of the time just focusing on one thing at once! Thus, our Zen Practice allows us another way of "mindfulness", also what I describe as operating on a couple of channels that (to a non-Buddhist) might seem in conflict or contradictory. We can, for example, think of future or past on one channel, while being "timeless" and "in the moment" on another. We can have "goals" and "no goals" at the same time, think about the hoped for outcome and drop all though of outcome ... all at the same time (non-attainment).

    It means we can get lots of stuff done ... while knowing that there is nothing to do, nothing that needs doing.

  19. #19

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugen
    _/_
    Yes.
    But not to forget, the important thing is to be in this moment, not chasing after others...
    To be here (and there at the same time) and not wander off.
    As someone put it, When this happens, do this! When that happens do that!

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen
    Yes but but ... as I often say, sometimes to be "in this moment" means that we are to be "in this moment planning the future, or learning from the past". I sometimes say something like this ...

    [Folks encounter lots of Zen teachings like the one mentioned by Master Seung Sahn, "when you eat, just eat. When you sleep just sleep..."] But I think that Master Seung Sahn's phrasing, like many Zen books and expressions, can sound rather idealistic if it implies that we must be "mindful" or in "Zen Mind" 24/7. My view is more balanced I think, namely, "when mindful of one thing, just be mindful of one thing ... when distracted, overwrought and multi-tasking, just be distracted, overwrought and multi-task". There is a time for everything, and we cannot be "mindful" each minute. All of it is life.

    However, one of the great fruits of our Zen Practice is that, even when we are distracted, overwrought and multi-tasking, feeling completely miserable and off balance ... and even when "Zen Mind" feels very far away ... we can still know it is 'there' even if we do not feel it at that moment [the blue sky always behind the clouds]. So I say, when feeling completely "miserable and off balance", just be "miserable and off balance" in that moment ... it too is a temporary state of mind.

    So, in other words, have a balanced and realistic view of life ... even a balanced view of sometimes or frequently being unbalanced, overworked, distracted and such.

    When falling on your butt in the mud because you were thinking about "mindfulness" ... JUST DO THAT! IT TOO IS A PERFECT ACT IN THAT MOMENT!!
    and

    [T]o survive in life we have to think about outcomes, tomorrow, yesterday and even multi-task sometimes! So, we cannot live much or most of the time just focusing on one thing at once! Thus, our Zen Practice allows us another way of "mindfulness", also what I describe as operating on a couple of channels that (to a non-Buddhist) might seem in conflict or contradictory. We can, for example, think of future or past on one channel, while being "timeless" and "in the moment" on another. We can have "goals" and "no goals" at the same time, think about the hoped for outcome and drop all though of outcome ... all at the same time (non-attainment).

    It means we can get lots of stuff done ... while knowing that there is nothing to do, nothing that needs doing.
    Hi.
    Yes.
    I often get the feeling that people get "to be in this moment" as something diasttached from That moment.
    You mustn't forget that you can be in "THIS moment planning/learning for/from THAT moment", but the important thing to remember is "BEING in THIS moment planning/learning for/from that moment".
    And maybe as important when planning/learning is just planning/learning.
    It's all interconnected.

    And thinking about "mindfulness" instead of doing it... :roll: :lol:
    It's a little like missing the point, yes?

    So i like to say When this happens, do this! When that happens do that!
    When thinking of a lot of stuff, think of a lot of stuff, when doing a lot of stuff, do a lot of stuff.

    And on another thought "we can have this and that"...
    I pondering about the can...
    Am i opening a can of worms, when saying "we ARE having this and that", maybe not just empasizing the other?

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen

  20. #20

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    Hey again,

    A couple of folks wrote to ask me, after I posted the following ... "well, since you are saying it is "okay" sometimes to be miserable and overwrought and off balance in life, and since I am miserable and overwrought and off balance a lot of the time already, WHY PRACTICE?"

    Well, the point is this:

    Before we Practice, life throws us up and down.

    While and after we Practice, life throws us up and down.

    However, through Practice, we simultaneously come to appreciate ... that there is no "up" or "down".

    In doing so, we may go up and down (for such is to be human) ... yet be perfectly still about going up and down.

    That includes times when we are perfectly still about not always feeling still ... because we will not always feel still at times in life (alhough we will be feelings of "stillness" much more than without Practice).

    Something like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo

    [Folks encounter lots of Zen teachings like the one mentioned by Master Seung Sahn, "when you eat, just eat. When you sleep just sleep..."] But I think that Master Seung Sahn's phrasing, like many Zen books and expressions, can sound rather idealistic if it implies that we must be "mindful" or in "Zen Mind" 24/7. My view is more balanced I think, namely, "when mindful of one thing, just be mindful of one thing ... when distracted, overwrought and multi-tasking, just be distracted, overwrought and multi-task". There is a time for everything, and we cannot be "mindful" each minute. All of it is life.

    However, one of the great fruits of our Zen Practice is that, even when we are distracted, overwrought and multi-tasking, feeling completely miserable and off balance ... and even when "Zen Mind" feels very far away ... we can still know it is 'there' even if we do not feel it at that moment [the blue sky always behind the clouds]. So I say, when feeling completely "miserable and off balance", just be "miserable and off balance" in that moment ... it too is a temporary state of mind.

    So, in other words, have a balanced and realistic view of life ... even a balanced view of sometimes or frequently being unbalanced, overworked, distracted and such.

    When falling on your butt in the mud because you were thinking about "mindfulness" ... JUST DO THAT! IT TOO IS A PERFECT ACT IN THAT MOMENT!!

  21. #21

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    Jundo and Fugen,
    Nice discussion on “being in the moment.” I would only add one point in response to why practice if we will still have feelings being off balance. In Zen Mind Beginners’ Mind Suzuki Roshi states,

    The reason everything looks beautiful is because it out of balance, but its background is always in perfect harmony.
    My take on this is that life is by its very nature out of balance and without practice Norm Fischer states we experience true anguish and despair. With practice, the “out of balance nature of life” is cast on the background of emptiness, which we experience during zazen. Thus, with practice we may still suffer, but our suffering is recontextualized.

    Gassho,
    BrianW

  22. #22

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    Hi.

    We are in consensus.

    But i will add this.
    Before enlightenment, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers.
    With enlightenment, mountains are no longer mountains and rivers are no longer rivers.
    After enlightenment, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers.
    And i will add that if you are in a rollercoasterwagon, you are still (sitting in the wagon), while at the same time moving with the cart.

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen

  23. #23

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    1.16 This is so like what Jesus said in the bible:
    ..Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat, or about your body, what you will wear. For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them.
    Luke 12:22-24
    Norman Fischer talks about when he decided to take the step of depending on donations for support. So why don't we all do it? Well, we can't do it if we have families - can't impose it on others. But it isn't really necessary for al of us as he also seems to say in 1.20.

    1.17
    Quote Originally Posted by Dogen
    Without forcing yourself not to use such language, if you realize it is bad, you will be able to reform gradually.
    Yes, seeing through our thoughts and actions, becoming conscious of them is the main thing rather than forcing ourselves to adhere to a standard that sounds a good idea. I wonder what Dogen had in his mind that he described as lewd? Probably a lot different than we imagine.

    1.18 These teachings keep reminding me of the teachings of Jesus. He says something like this about the spirit of giving, that the left hand shouldn't know what the the right hand is doing. It is not real charity if we do it for future profit for ourselves.

    1.19 Looks like the monks were more concerned about their standing in the community than about helping people. We have to adopt roles in life but must be careful not to play them too rigidly.

    1.20
    Quote Originally Posted by Dogen
    Yet we have to take into consideration the customs and the conditions of each country. In whatever situation, we should choose what is best for the benefit of living beings in the long run and for the progress of our own practice.
    So, in 21st century Western countries, begging might be entirely inappropriate and it might be " best for the benefit of living beings" to be an ordinary householder
    holding down a job.

    Gassho,
    Doshin

  24. #24

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    Or you could live like this guy!

    http://men.style.com/details/features/l ... ntent_9817

    Gassho,
    Doshin

  25. #25
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Rochester, NY, USA
    Posts
    4,923

    Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

    Some thoughts:

    1-16 -- As Jundo mentioned, these are really aimed at monks who are leaving the world behind and not for lay practice, but I think the lessons of humility and simple living are just as apt for us who are still in the midst of "worldly affairs". Being too caught up in instant news feeds on the internet and obsessively gathering information can lead us away from the cushion. Fame and fortune have taken on new meaning in the past decade and with reality TV anyone can succumb to such allure. It's really about our basic needs, caring for them (and the needs of our family) and then directing energies towards others and practice.

    1-17 -- I agree with what someone else said about lewd talk having a very different meaning when these talks were recorded, but it does leave an obvious parallel to rumor mills and idle talk we've all been exposed to in our daily lives. I admit I do this as much as anyone, but try my best to redirect my time and energy to more productive tasks. The last paragraph mentions that "coarse and violent actions" can be good things now and again which made me chuckle since my son recently started becoming the "bad word" police. I tried explaining to him that the words in and of themselves are not bad...that it is how they are used and that sometimes their use is appropriate in very limited circumstances.

    1-18 -- This one seemed pretty straightforward to me in that a tendency I have had is wanting recognition for things I have done to help others and when I've made mistakes to not tell anyone. Basically, reverse that and, if you can't, your ego is attached to what people think of you. Taking this to an extreme would be just as ridiculous in actively trying to hide our good deeds and telling everyone we meet everything we have ever done wrong, but the point is made...watch that pesky self and it's ego drive. Also, don't make snap judgments about others...give to all, don't discriminate.

    1-19 -- This section seems similar to the one preceeding it. If someone asks for help, help them! As a person who overthinks EVERYTHING I can find myself in a near overload when someone asks for my assistance. If the deed is an honest one but still you worry about how it will affect you, that's your ego getting in the way again. Will X think bad of me if I praise Y? And never think yourself too good for anything because of your practice...one of the best ways to return after straying from the path is doing the most basic things in life. We are above nothing.

    1-20 -- I have often wondered if I knew I was going to die tomorrow would I spend a moment thereafter with my practice? Would I really go about the day before my death as if nothing was different from the moment before I learned my fate? Since life doesn't work like that I think it largely unecessary to provide a response, but it is a way of assessing how attached we are to this life and all the things in it. I think most people find it very hard to consider the ramifications of their actions 100 years from now since that requires thoughts of our demise. I try to think twice about doing something like cutting down a tree since it could outlive me...what does my desire to cut it down mean then? The point? We aren't on an island apart from everything else....our need to own and control things will mean nothing after we are dead, so does it really matter while we are alive?

    Gassho,
    Dosho

Similar Threads

  1. 4/9 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 4-16 to 5-4
    By Jundo in forum "BEYOND WORDS & LETTERS" BOOK CLUB
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-24-2010, 01:01 AM
  2. 8/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-13 to 2-17
    By Jundo in forum "BEYOND WORDS & LETTERS" BOOK CLUB
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 09-07-2009, 02:48 PM
  3. 8/8 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-10 to 2-12
    By Jundo in forum "BEYOND WORDS & LETTERS" BOOK CLUB
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 08-28-2009, 08:55 AM
  4. 8/8 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 2-5 to 2-9
    By Jundo in forum "BEYOND WORDS & LETTERS" BOOK CLUB
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 08-21-2009, 01:46 AM
  5. 7/31 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-21 to 2-4
    By Jundo in forum "BEYOND WORDS & LETTERS" BOOK CLUB
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 08-18-2009, 05:27 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •