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Thread: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

  1. #1
    disastermouse
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    Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Who among you have secret desires that Zen is really going to get you somewhere? Who among you is using zazen to SEEK something and what is that thing you are seeking? Do you think there is an answer or an angle or a perspective that destroys all unhappiness? An enlightened mind does not seek to destroy unhappiness! That whole drive IS unhappiness! You think that whatever you are seeking simply MUST be something other than just 'this', right? But what else could it be?

    We hear 'Zen is useless' but (almost) no one really believes it. People get discouraged because they think they're supposed to get something.. A lot of times, we start aiming for enlightenment..then we lower our aim to patience, then to just less pain, less disatisfaction...then we get discouraged and abandon Zen.

    IMHO

    Chet

  2. #2

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Hello Chet!

    You raised some interesting topics in your last post. Though I do not have a direct answer for you, let me just say that I get catapulted back to the well known saying "there are no enlightenend people, just enlightened activities" everytime I'm running the risk of thinking too much about this whole "goal of the practice" business. Once you've verified for yourself (in whichever way), that A path is a true path (e.g. Shikantaza Zen), all you can do is just practice. "Just doing it" is all that remains. In an ever changing world, (IMHO) there is no limit to enlightened activity unfolding in previously unknown ways ever anew.

    I personally think that the really tricky point is finding out for yourself what a true path might look like for you and then to stick with it....a bit like brushing your teeth. Should I ever have to explain why I keep doing Zazen, I could come up with a really long list of words and shallow phrases about being able to see thoughts arise without attaching to them...the calming effect...ecstatic experiences once every hundred years etc. But the true answer is that "I don't know" why I keep doing this.

    Am I doing Zazen, or is Zazen doing me? A nice koan.

    "Don't know" is a very good place to be indeed, as long as it jumps clear of knowing and not-knowing.



    Sorry if this doesn't relate to your original post enough, but that's what popped into my mind when I read it.


    Gassho,

    Mongen

  3. #3
    disastermouse
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Getting discouraged is very valuable in our practice! It shows where there are mistaken ideas about what our way is.

    IMHO.

    Better to be discouraged than have kensho. Kensho is so hard to question. Then again, maybe they both push you on the path. But no one SEEKS discouragement and so many seek Kensho. Why is this?

    Chet

  4. #4

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Who among you have secret desires that Zen is really going to get you somewhere? Who among you is using Zazen to SEEK something and what is that thing you are seeking?
    I used to, but life's short. You know?

    Probably something that is frequent, but it comes and goes away. Might come back :shock:

    I was seeking enlightenment of course. Secret agendas hidden away in a box

    But, today it's about the rain. This moment.

    Gassho

    W

  5. #5
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by padre
    At this point, I don't really expect anything to magically happen.

    For the historical figure generally referred to as the Buddha, he had a nagging inward struggle that his practice eventually helped him untangle in a more or less spectacular way. My own practice does help untangle nagging struggles, and I feel that's a natural by-product of practice.

    But practicing zazen every day expecting to "become enlightened" is about like practicing a martial art every day expecting to turn into a nuclear bomb.
    I think you've missed the point completely. Sitting zazen everyday expecting to 'become enlightened' is to not realize the reality of your actual experience.

    Enlightenment is NOT something so absurd as a martial artist expecting to become a nuclear bomb. It IS spectacular, but it's not absurd.

    IMHO.

    Chet

  6. #6
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by padre
    While it wouldn't be the first time I've missed a point completely, I'm not sure that such a conclusion may be derived from my previous post.

    When I sit, I am enlightened, and when I practice taekwondo, I am a nuclear bomb. But neither of those assertions makes any sense if interpreted in certain (perfectly reasonable) ways.
    Actually, your first statement makes PERFECT sense if interpreted reasonably. The second statement is just nonsense. To compare the two statements seems...

    Like something someone would say if he was lost in the dark and fumbling to make sense of it.

    Chet

  7. #7
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by padre
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Quote Originally Posted by padre
    While it wouldn't be the first time I've missed a point completely, I'm not sure that such a conclusion may be derived from my previous post.

    When I sit, I am enlightened, and when I practice taekwondo, I am a nuclear bomb. But neither of those assertions makes any sense if interpreted in certain (perfectly reasonable) ways.
    Actually, your first statement makes PERFECT sense if interpreted reasonably. The second statement is just nonsense. To compare the two statements seems...

    Like something someone would say if he was lost in the dark and fumbling to make sense of it.

    Chet
    My first two statements were really intended to be taken along with the third statement. It does seem safe to say that we've missed one another at this point.
    How can we really possible miss one another?

    Perhaps our statements seem at odds - but you are right - sitting together, everything really is already enlightened and there already is harmony.

    Gassho

    Chet

  8. #8
    Senior Member rculver's Avatar
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    I started zazen to cope with stress. I got a little taste of something during sitting, which led to curiosity and a desire for more. Now, I don't know why I sit - it's just become what I do. Deep down, I'm probably still looking for something - I'm just not sure what that is anymore.

    Ron

  9. #9

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Who among you have secret desires that Zen is really going to get you somewhere? Who among you is using zazen to SEEK something and what is that thing you are seeking? Do you think there is an answer or an angle or a perspective that destroys all unhappiness? An enlightened mind does not seek to destroy unhappiness! That whole drive IS unhappiness! You think that whatever you are seeking simply MUST be something other than just 'this', right? But what else could it be?
    Quote Originally Posted by padre
    At this point, I don't really expect anything to magically happen.
    Hi,

    I am not sure that -I- get the point of some of the above posts ... but let me get on my soapbox and makes some things clear:

    Who said that there is "nothing to find" in and through this practice, no place to get, no treasure at the end of the rainbow?

    Not me. I never would say such a silly thing. Then why pursue this path?

    Who said there is no "enlightenment" to be achieved? I never would say that. It would not be Buddhism in that case.

    What's more, this practice lets us be happy, joyful. Who said not? Not me.

    Ya really got to pay attention to what is being said. You see:

    Just because we are not seeking does not mean we are not seeking ... nor that there aren't magical marvels thus to find! Enlightenment!

    To the marrow sitting free of seeking ... is a dandy way thus to find something which can only be found by sitting radically free of seeking. Realizing that there is no where to get to, and no place you can get ... is finally getting somewhere that will revolutionize our life.

    Being the "Buddha" all along, and having not a thing about you that is in need of change ... that does not mean you don't have some work to do to realize truly that you are the Buddha without need of change. To realize that you are never, from the outset, in need of change is a VERY BIG CHANGE! There is absolutely nothing about you and the universe (not two) to add or take away, and tasting that there is "nothing to add" is an irreplaceably important addition!

    By being "goalless" we hit the goal ... a goal which is hit by being thoroughly goalless.

    In seeing the ordinary as sacred ... we find (as Hakuin Zenji wrote) "this earth where we stand is the Pure Lotus Land, and this very body the body of Buddha".

    Yes, the key is "not me" ... because that "me" is a trouble maker of frictions with the "not me" world. But depriving the "me" of its fuel, dropping body-mind, the friction vanishes. The way to "drop body-mind" is to drop all thought of achievement of "dropping body-mind" and all other need for achievement ... which results in a very major achievement, namely, the "dropping of body-mind."

    And, yes, finally ... this practice makes me happy, joyful, deep down and pervading. It is an abiding happiness and joy at a life in which I do not need to, and will not, feel happy and joyful all or much of the time. And that makes me happy!

    See how that all works?

    For more details on this wacky, crazy, Koany, Zenny way of inside out, Alice through the looking glassness ... I repost the following ...

    Hi,

    Well, let me say what I always say ... and this is the BRILLIANCE, I assure all, of our path of "Non-attaining" ...

    HEED CLOSELY THE FOLLOWING!

    "Shikantaza" Zen practice is a radical, to the marrow, dropping of the self's demands that something needs to be attained to make this world "right", that something must be added or removed from our lives to make life complete, that something is defective and needs to be changed., that we need to get some place to find our "True Home".

    HOWEVER, radically dropping, to the marrow all need to attain, add or remove, or change in order to make life right and complete --IS-- A WONDROUS ATTAINMENT, ADDITION and CHANGE TO LIFE! Dropping all need to "get somewhere" is truly finally GETTING SOMEWHERE! The True Home is here and everywhere! Abandoning all need in life's race to cross some finish line over a distant hill, is simply arriving at the finish line which is our every step!

    GOT HOW THAT WORKS? :shock:

    All of that is dropped from mind ... with other related stuff like thoughts of this and that, self and other ... and, in doing so, the body-mind of self (being out of a job) drops away too!

    JUNDO SPECIAL NOTE I: But this must NOT be understood merely intellectually, and instead actually made the living practice of our life ... thus, all that Zazen! Chasing that which cannot be chased, attaining that which need not and cannot be attained.


    As Chet says rightly ... Zen is not a "self help tool". It will not let you avoid growing old, cure your cancer, repair your broken marriage, or even fix your flat tire. It will not add one thing to your life, nor make any improvement in it whatsoever.

    And realizing that is instantly a solution to all your problems ... because they are not problems when you do not resist them as problems, and when all separation of "me" from "them" drops away.

    etc. etc. etc.


    Gassho, Jundo

    PS - JUNDO SPECIAL NOTE - Accepting the world as "just the way it is" does not mean we need sit on our backsides. Remember, please, "acceptance without acceptance". We can accept the cancer,yet take our medicine. Be wholly "at one" with a flat tire, yet change it. Just because you are now "at one" with your alcoholic, cigarette smoking, morbidly obese, fighting and cussing ways ... does not mean your should not live a more healthful way, and quit all that. You can accept your condition ... but you had best not accept your condition.

  10. #10
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Who among you have secret desires that Zen is really going to get you somewhere? Who among you is using zazen to SEEK something and what is that thing you are seeking? Do you think there is an answer or an angle or a perspective that destroys all unhappiness? An enlightened mind does not seek to destroy unhappiness! That whole drive IS unhappiness! You think that whatever you are seeking simply MUST be something other than just 'this', right? But what else could it be?
    Quote Originally Posted by padre
    At this point, I don't really expect anything to magically happen.
    Hi,

    I am not sure that -I- get the point of some of the above posts ... but let me get on my soapbox and makes some things clear:

    Who said that there is "nothing to find" in and through this practice, no place to get, no treasure at the end of the rainbow?

    Not me. I never would say such a silly thing. Then why pursue this path?

    Who said there is no "enlightenment" to be achieved? I never would say that. It would not be Buddhism in that case.

    What's more, this practice lets us be happy, joyful. Who said not? Not me.

    Ya really got to pay attention to what is being said. You see:

    Just because we are not seeking does not mean we are not seeking ... nor that there aren't magical marvels thus to find! Enlightenment!

    To the marrow sitting free of seeking ... is a dandy way thus to find something which can only be found by sitting radically free of seeking. Realizing that there is no where to get to, and no place you can get ... is finally getting somewhere that will revolutionize our life.

    Being the "Buddha" all along, and having not a thing about you that is in need of change ... that does not mean you don't have some work to do to realize truly that you are the Buddha without need of change. To realize that you are never, from the outset, in need of change is a VERY BIG CHANGE! There is absolutely nothing about you and the universe (not two) to add or take away, and tasting that there is "nothing to add" is an irreplaceably important addition!

    By being "goalless" we hit the goal ... a goal which is hit by being thoroughly goalless.

    In seeing the ordinary as sacred ... we find (as Hakuin Zenji wrote) "this earth where we stand is the Pure Lotus Land, and this very body the body of Buddha".

    Yes, the key is "not me" ... because that "me" is a trouble maker of frictions with the "not me" world. But depriving the "me" of its fuel, dropping body-mind, the friction vanishes. The way to "drop body-mind" is to drop all thought of achievement of "dropping body-mind" and all other need for achievement ... which results in a very major achievement, namely, the "dropping of body-mind."

    And, yes, finally ... this practice makes me happy, joyful, deep down and pervading. It is an abiding happiness and joy at a life in which I do not need to, and will not, feel happy and joyful all or much of the time. And that makes me happy!

    See how that all works?

    For more details on this wacky, crazy, Koany, Zenny way of inside out, Alice through the looking glassness ... I repost the following ...

    Hi,

    Well, let me say what I always say ... and this is the BRILLIANCE, I assure all, of our path of "Non-attaining" ...

    HEED CLOSELY THE FOLLOWING!

    "Shikantaza" Zen practice is a radical, to the marrow, dropping of the self's demands that something needs to be attained to make this world "right", that something must be added or removed from our lives to make life complete, that something is defective and needs to be changed., that we need to get some place to find our "True Home".

    HOWEVER, radically dropping, to the marrow all need to attain, add or remove, or change in order to make life right and complete --IS-- A WONDROUS ATTAINMENT, ADDITION and CHANGE TO LIFE! Dropping all need to "get somewhere" is truly finally GETTING SOMEWHERE! The True Home is here and everywhere! Abandoning all need in life's race to cross some finish line over a distant hill, is simply arriving at the finish line which is our every step!

    GOT HOW THAT WORKS? :shock:

    All of that is dropped from mind ... with other related stuff like thoughts of this and that, self and other ... and, in doing so, the body-mind of self (being out of a job) drops away too!

    JUNDO SPECIAL NOTE I: But this must NOT be understood merely intellectually, and instead actually made the living practice of our life ... thus, all that Zazen! Chasing that which cannot be chased, attaining that which need not and cannot be attained.


    As Chet says rightly ... Zen is not a "self help tool". It will not let you avoid growing old, cure your cancer, repair your broken marriage, or even fix your flat tire. It will not add one thing to your life, nor make any improvement in it whatsoever.

    And realizing that is instantly a solution to all your problems ... because they are not problems when you do not resist them as problems, and when all separation of "me" from "them" drops away.

    etc. etc. etc.


    Gassho, Jundo

    PS - JUNDO SPECIAL NOTE - Accepting the world as "just the way it is" does not mean we need sit on our backsides. Remember, please, "acceptance without acceptance". We can accept the cancer,yet take our medicine. Be wholly "at one" with a flat tire, yet change it. Just because you are now "at one" with your alcoholic, cigarette smoking, morbidly obese, fighting and cussing ways ... does not mean your should not live a more healthful way, and quit all that. You can accept your condition ... but you had best not accept your condition.
    Right, Jundo - I just hear people talk about getting disappointed..

    Disappointed with what? Enlightenment is not resignation, no. A thousand times no.

    What I'm saying is - YOU'RE SOAKING IN THE TREASURE. It's right here!

    I was talking with a friend, and she's still thinking there's something else - and that's all wrong. She wants Kensho even though this IS Kensho. But then I meet people who think that Zen is this plodding, passive, blase, dead thing. And that's all wrong too. The first seeks what is already there but rejects it in favor of some fantastical idea of what it should be - the second view is shockingly lacking in motivation or curiosity - far too complacent and also doesn't pierce to the essence of what reality is.

    IMHO.

    Chet

  11. #11

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    What I'm saying is - YOU'RE SOAKING IN THE TREASURE. It's right here!
    Yes.

    Gassho, Jundo

    Ps-
    I was talking with a friend, and she's still thinking there's something else - and that's all wrong. ...
    Well, realizing truly that it is all "right here" really is "something else", not our ordinary way of experiencing life. Some people need to look very hard to find that, and that is fine. Some flavors of Kensho may help some folks to realize that "all is soaking in the treasure". Different folks need to find this "treasure ever present" in different ways. The only problem is when folks keep looking for the "something else" without ever arriving at the "it's right here". I believe.

  12. #12

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    What I'm saying is - YOU'RE SOAKING IN THE TREASURE. It's right here!
    Yes.

    Gassho, Jundo

    Ps-
    I was talking with a friend, and she's still thinking there's something else - and that's all wrong. ...
    Well, realizing truly that it is all "right here" really is "something else", not our ordinary way of experiencing life. Some people need to look very hard to find that, and that is fine. Some flavors of Kensho may help some folks to realize that "all is soaking in the treasure". Different folks need to find this "treasure ever present" in different ways. The only problem is when folks keep looking for the "something else" without ever arriving at the "it's right here". I believe.
    Hi.

    I always had a problem with saying its "right here".
    Can there be a "right here" without an "left there"?

    Do you have an suggestion of an "better wording"?

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen

  13. #13
    Senior Member AlanLa's Avatar
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Fugen wrote:
    I always had a problem with saying its "right here".
    Can there be a "right here" without an "left there"?
    But when it's all "right here," there is no "left there" left over. When it's all one, there is no need for two; one beyond one leaves no room or place for two. Fugen caught by dualism? I must be dreaming :wink:

    I was really going to post something else, but then I saw Fugen's post and had to respond,,, and now I realize that what I was going to say is completely pointless. So, never mind.

  14. #14

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    It's important that we keep practicing.

    Gassho

  15. #15

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Here's what I've learned so far up to now:

    What the heck is enlightenment?!

    This is what it's come to. I've had moments of great intimacy, smells and sounds etc.. Is that it? I've also have moments, like now, of clarity. I know that things, or habits, are changing. Whether I have "anything" to do with that, I don't know. There you go. Time to sit again.

    W

  16. #16

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanLa
    Fugen wrote:
    I always had a problem with saying its "right here".
    Can there be a "right here" without an "left there"?
    But when it's all "right here," there is no "left there" left over. When it's all one, there is no need for two; one beyond one leaves no room or place for two. Fugen caught by dualism? I must be dreaming :wink:

    I was really going to post something else, but then I saw Fugen's post and had to respond,,, and now I realize that what I was going to say is completely pointless. So, never mind.
    Hi.

    Yes.
    Youre right, when you put the "all" in, it's another matter.
    When you put it like it's "all here", that means even the "left there"...

    As for the one-two part, what is a one with out a two, a three asf?
    But remeber even though you may say two, three asf, it's all still "one thing", numbers...

    What he's really trying to do is put it out there for you all to start thinking, realizing...

    And as for Fugen caught by dualism, let me quote another master who keeps banging my head: "do not saparate between hot and cold".

    And for the last one, nothing is pointless...

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen

  17. #17
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by will
    Here's what I've learned so far up to now:

    What the heck is enlightenment?!

    This is what it's come to. I've had moments of great intimacy, smells and sounds etc.. Is that it? I've also have moments, like now, of clarity. I know that things, or habits, are changing. Whether I have "anything" to do with that, I don't know. There you go. Time to sit again.

    W
    I can't say I know what enlightenment is...I've had what I believe was a kensho experience. But there's a difference between waking up in a dream and staying awake enough in a dream to thoroughly and creatively engage with it. The point is not to trancend a hoax, in my opinion, it's to wake up and then ENGAGE life completely and creatively.

    My point here is that some people seem to think that a 'lights on' experience is something fantastic - when really, it's the most normal thing there is..and they chase it thinking it's the ultimate situational solution to their problems (and that attitude is exactly what prevents the 'lights on' experience in the first place). If you have a 'lights on' experience, you'll be absolutely sure that it's transformed you (unless you have wise counsel to clue you in)...but it's very easy to relapse into thinking that there are situational solutions to our problems - only now your situational solutions revolve around the mythical 'lights on' experience. That was my experience. If you're lucky, the dissonance will collapse your constructs.

    Other people though, seem to think that enlightenment is just resignation..a mellow acceptance of the facts of the myriad types of suffering - a quiet acquiescence to what seems like the unavoidable facts of life. Some people seem to think that Zen is the perfect balance of self-control and numbing out (whether they admit that or not). I see these 'life-reduced', misguided people all the time trying so damned hard to be 'good Buddhists'. That's not it either.

    IMHO.

    Chet

  18. #18
    Senior Member rculver's Avatar
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Some people seem to think that Zen is the perfect balance of self-control and numbing out
    For me, Zen is about self discipline and opening up, not "numbing out" . You need to put the time on the zafu which involves some degree of self discipline. Sometimes all this talk about what enlightenment is or isn't just muddies the water for me. I have no idea what it is, I just know at this stage that sitting is something I want/need to do and will continue to do.

    Klueless in Kentucky

  19. #19

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Who Among You Doubts (the Budha Dharma)?

    this doubt is a pivot upon which 'thinking,' (perhaps better described as 'conditioned thought') can be easily, almost effortlessly shifted.
    buddhist doubt is not skepticism
    when you are around a long-time zazen practitioner you get to see and experience this living doubt: tireless, fearless, cheerful, undaunted, joyful even in sorrow, alive, ALIVE!, bristling, shining with livingness...

    for whatever reason--something brings us/brought us to zen buddhism and the practice of zazen.
    what usually brings someone to a religion is some kind of psychological discomfort or crisis --
    we enter the 'zen culture' of the zen center we encounter: the different names in Chinese, Japanese, Sanskrit, Korean; the rituals, the clothing, the posture, we get a new name!
    but these are just other ways to occupy time, occupy mind until we 'grow up' enough to tolerate doubt

    doubt enables suspension of premature conviction

    The activity of suspending convictions is like letting the mind swim naked: deliciously freeing!

    in zazen doubt itself is even doubted!

    not everyone likes the experience of swimming
    or the experience of being naked
    doubt is not for everyone

    but if you have doubt
    zazen practice is a good one to consider--indubitably...

    if you doubt that you have doubt--still consider!

  20. #20

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    I think some guy once said "Practice is Enlightenment." What we do with these bones.

    Somehow I don't think angels are going to fly down from the sky singing "AHHHHH... " in unison.

    When you put up with yourself long enough, well...

    Enlightenment can be some kind of story etc. etc., but ultimately it's just life really. Just life without so much worry, or hesitation. Talking about Enlightenment is Enlightenment. Right now. The only difference between before and now is that we don't really add any extravagant idea to it. There's no craving there. "ooooohhh...Yeahhh. Ennnliiighteeenmeeeent. Sounds nice." Perhaps more like:

    A: Got some enlightenment there?
    B: Yep.
    A: Well... gotta go do the weeds.
    B: See ya Ralph.

    "Waking up" is probably a more suiting phrase.

    But what do I know?

    Time for bed.

    W

  21. #21
    disastermouse
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by will

    Enlightenment can be some kind of story etc. etc., but ultimately it's just life really. Just life without so much worry, or hesitation. Talking about Enlightenment is Enlightenment. Right now. The only difference between before and now is that we don't really add any extravagant idea to it. There's no craving there.
    Wow, Will..that's...you put it better than I've been able to do.

    Gassho.

    (Boy do I appreciate this Sangha...)

    Chet

  22. #22
    disastermouse
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keishin
    Who Among You Doubts (the Budha Dharma)?

    this doubt is a pivot upon which 'thinking,' (perhaps better described as 'conditioned thought') can be easily, almost effortlessly shifted.
    buddhist doubt is not skepticism
    when you are around a long-time zazen practitioner you get to see and experience this living doubt: tireless, fearless, cheerful, undaunted, joyful even in sorrow, alive, ALIVE!, bristling, shining with livingness...

    for whatever reason--something brings us/brought us to zen buddhism and the practice of zazen.
    what usually brings someone to a religion is some kind of psychological discomfort or crisis --
    we enter the 'zen culture' of the zen center we encounter: the different names in Chinese, Japanese, Sanskrit, Korean; the rituals, the clothing, the posture, we get a new name!
    but these are just other ways to occupy time, occupy mind until we 'grow up' enough to tolerate doubt

    doubt enables suspension of premature conviction

    The activity of suspending convictions is like letting the mind swim naked: deliciously freeing!

    in zazen doubt itself is even doubted!

    not everyone likes the experience of swimming
    or the experience of being naked
    doubt is not for everyone

    but if you have doubt
    zazen practice is a good one to consider--indubitably...

    if you doubt that you have doubt--still consider!
    Hey Keishen...

    Do I recognize you from ZCLA? Except for a few people there, I fucking hated that place! I probably should have gone a lot more until my preferences were worn down - but then again, that place is completely associated with Hannah (Seishin) in my mind...as is most of my LA experience.

    I was talking about a different kind of doubt in my original post, Keishen - but you bring up some good points.

    Chet

  23. #23
    Senior Member rculver's Avatar
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Thank you for this thread.

    Ron

  24. #24

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keishin
    Who Among You Doubts (the Budha Dharma)?


    in zazen doubt itself is even doubted!

    not everyone likes the experience of swimming
    or the experience of being naked
    doubt is not for everyone

    but if you have doubt
    zazen practice is a good one to consider--indubitably...

    if you doubt that you have doubt--still consider!
    This doubt (don't know) mind is sharper than a knife. It cuts thru thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by will
    I think some guy once said "Practice is Enlightenment." What we do with these bones.

    Somehow I don't think angels are going to fly down from the sky singing "AHHHHH... " in unison.

    When you put up with yourself long enough, well...

    Enlightenment can be some kind of story etc. etc., but ultimately it's just life really. Just life without so much worry, or hesitation. Talking about Enlightenment is Enlightenment. Right now. The only difference between before and now is that we don't really add any extravagant idea to it. There's no craving there. "ooooohhh...Yeahhh. Ennnliiighteeenmeeeent. Sounds nice." Perhaps more like:

    A: Got some enlightenment there?
    B: Yep.
    A: Well... gotta go do the weeds.
    B: See ya Ralph.

    "Waking up" is probably a more suiting phrase.

    But what do I know?

    Time for bed.

    W
    there is nothing else to say, but Dogen did say not to worry about the mind being deluded. Your actions are the Bodhisattva way itself. so just sitting, just eating, just talking, just driving, just doing is the practice and it doesn't matter if you call it enlightenment or not but I think it is.
    Chet, thanks for this thread.

  25. #25
    Senior Member AlanLa's Avatar
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Who among you have secret desires that Zen is really going to get you somewhere?
    That would be me, but I now know that I am here. Yet the Path to get some/nowhere continues...

    Who among you is using zazen to SEEK something and what is that thing you are seeking?
    I seek peace, and it is right here, but not always, so I keep on the non/seeking Path.

    Do you think there is an answer or an angle or a perspective that destroys all unhappiness?
    Yes, and I think I have found it, but I have not yet both grasped it and also let go of it, so I keep on the Path.

    An enlightened mind does not seek to destroy unhappiness!
    Been there and left there, going back and forth all the time, such is the Path.

    That whole drive IS unhappiness!
    Yes, but the drive consists of change, and so it is not ALL unhappiness.

    You think that whatever you are seeking simply MUST be something other than just 'this', right?
    Nope, but just "this" is much more elusive than it would seem, such is the path on the way to the Path.

    We hear 'Zen is useless' but (almost) no one really believes it.
    I have come to find it useless in the most useful sort of way.

    People get discouraged because they think they're supposed to get something. A lot of times, we start aiming for enlightenment..then we lower our aim to patience, then to just less pain, less disatisfaction...then we get discouraged and abandon Zen.
    This is a side path on the Path.

  26. #26
    disastermouse
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanLa
    Who among you have secret desires that Zen is really going to get you somewhere?
    That would be me, but I now know that I am here. Yet the Path to get some/nowhere continues...

    Who among you is using zazen to SEEK something and what is that thing you are seeking?
    I seek peace, and it is right here, but not always, so I keep on the non/seeking Path.

    Do you think there is an answer or an angle or a perspective that destroys all unhappiness?
    Yes, and I think I have found it, but I have not yet both grasped it and also let go of it, so I keep on the Path.

    An enlightened mind does not seek to destroy unhappiness!
    Been there and left there, going back and forth all the time, such is the Path.

    That whole drive IS unhappiness!
    Yes, but the drive consists of change, and so it is not ALL unhappiness.

    You think that whatever you are seeking simply MUST be something other than just 'this', right?
    Nope, but just "this" is much more elusive than it would seem, such is the path on the way to the Path.

    We hear 'Zen is useless' but (almost) no one really believes it.
    I have come to find it useless in the most useful sort of way.

    People get discouraged because they think they're supposed to get something. A lot of times, we start aiming for enlightenment..then we lower our aim to patience, then to just less pain, less disatisfaction...then we get discouraged and abandon Zen.
    This is a side path on the Path.
    Oh for fuck's sake, Alan... Do you even have any idea what the hell you are typing or are you only typing it because it 'sounds Zen-like'? "I have not yet both grasped it and let go of it"? "I have come to find it useless in the most useful sort of way."?

    Why is it that when Westerners want to sound like the teachers or texts that they're emulating, they avoid contractions just like someone would if English wasn't their first language?

    And if you get offended by my response - ask yourself what part of you feels offended before you get all puffed up about it...Would you care to stumble forward in a voice that's maybe more authentic and not as affectedly 'Zen-like'?

    Here's a hint - before you hit submit, say what you've typed aloud and reflect on whether it would sound abso-smurfl-ey ridiculous in an honest-to-goodness conversation.

    (In good faith, I'll admit that the beginning of my original post also avoided contractions and therefore sounded just a smidge affected...maybe a touch melodramatic. I do believe though that I avoided the whole 'say-something-and-then-totally-contradict-it-in-a-very-awkward-sentence-structure' thing you've got going on...)


    (I also can't believe I typed 'Who among you have...' Clearly, I was drunk or something.)

    Chet

  27. #27
    disastermouse
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by padre
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    (I also can't believe I typed 'Who among you have...' Clearly, I was drunk or something.)
    I kinda liked the "who among you" bit, actually. :wink:
    Right...but the subject is singular, so the verb should be singular (has instead of have).

    Chet

  28. #28
    Senior Member AlanLa's Avatar
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Hi Chet
    That's an authentic smile for you as I sit by my post.
    Doubt as you please.

  29. #29

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Hello Chet/disastermouse, and all others posting here!

    No, I don't think you know me from ZCLA. I have sat with folks who were affiliated with ZCLA, but have sat very rarely at ZCLA itself.
    I just have always felt like more like a distant cousin when it comes to the White Plum Asangha. I owe a great deal of my early days of practice to Jifu Gower who had a sitting group in her home (3 days a week, then two days a week, then one day a week and then she ended sitting groups coming to her home). My son was 3 years old and as a single mom with no support group--she let Andrew lie on her bed and watch cartoons while sitting happened in the room dedicated as the zendo down the hall. It immensely helped the regularity of my practice and it was a treat for Andrew--once in a while we'd hear his laughter during sitting.

    In my experience: sitting with different groups over long periods of time has been a benefit. Rinsai vs soto is not an intellectual distinction. Korean chanting vs Japanese chanting, vs no chanting.
    Good stuff, this getting to know these different approaches--of that, I have no doubts!

  30. #30

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse

    Oh for fuck's sake, Alan... Do you even have any idea what the hell you are typing or are you only typing it because it 'sounds Zen-like'? "I have not yet both grasped it and let go of it"? "I have come to find it useless in the most useful sort of way."?

    Why is it that when Westerners want to sound like the teachers or texts that they're emulating, they avoid contractions just like someone would if English wasn't their first language?

    And if you get offended by my response - ask yourself what part of you feels offended before you get all puffed up about it...Would you care to stumble forward in a voice that's maybe more authentic and not as affectedly 'Zen-like'?

    Here's a hint - before you hit submit, say what you've typed aloud and reflect on whether it would sound abso-smurfl-ey ridiculous in an honest-to-goodness conversation.

    (In good faith, I'll admit that the beginning of my original post also avoided contractions and therefore sounded just a smidge affected...maybe a touch melodramatic. I do believe though that I avoided the whole 'say-something-and-then-totally-contradict-it-in-a-very-awkward-sentence-structure' thing you've got going on...)


    (I also can't believe I typed 'Who among you have...' Clearly, I was drunk or something.)

    Chet
    I think striving for the use of 'normal' language is admirable. If we can reduce confusion and perhaps make topics more approachable, great. I think Jundo does an awesome job of this and even makes sense of 'Zen-like' stuff too. Sounding like a fortune cookie or a poorly translated textbook is less helpful. On the other hand, if you come across something that you can't make sense of or that sounds ridiculous, leave it behind. You won't miss anything if it means nothing to you.

    I'm just me, but I don't care for foul language (how much worse is it than what Alan said?) in this setting. It just seems angry. It's unpleasant. I'm just throwing that out there; just a gentle observation. I'm not going to give anyone a hard time about it because I'm really starting to notice how awful I feel after I've criticized someone.

    Cam

  31. #31
    disastermouse
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadbuddha
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse

    Oh for fuck's sake, Alan... Do you even have any idea what the hell you are typing or are you only typing it because it 'sounds Zen-like'? "I have not yet both grasped it and let go of it"? "I have come to find it useless in the most useful sort of way."?

    Why is it that when Westerners want to sound like the teachers or texts that they're emulating, they avoid contractions just like someone would if English wasn't their first language?

    And if you get offended by my response - ask yourself what part of you feels offended before you get all puffed up about it...Would you care to stumble forward in a voice that's maybe more authentic and not as affectedly 'Zen-like'?

    Here's a hint - before you hit submit, say what you've typed aloud and reflect on whether it would sound abso-smurfl-ey ridiculous in an honest-to-goodness conversation.

    (In good faith, I'll admit that the beginning of my original post also avoided contractions and therefore sounded just a smidge affected...maybe a touch melodramatic. I do believe though that I avoided the whole 'say-something-and-then-totally-contradict-it-in-a-very-awkward-sentence-structure' thing you've got going on...)


    (I also can't believe I typed 'Who among you have...' Clearly, I was drunk or something.)

    Chet
    I think striving for the use of 'normal' language is admirable. If we can reduce confusion and perhaps make topics more approachable, great. I think Jundo does an awesome job of this and even makes sense of 'Zen-like' stuff too. Sounding like a fortune cookie or a poorly translated textbook is less helpful. On the other hand, if you come across something that you can't make sense of or that sounds ridiculous, leave it behind. You won't miss anything if it means nothing to you.

    I'm just me, but I don't care for foul language (how much worse is it than what Alan said?) in this setting. It just seems angry. It's unpleasant. I'm just throwing that out there; just a gentle observation. I'm not going to give anyone a hard time about it because I'm really starting to notice how awful I feel after I've criticized someone.

    Cam
    I'm not really criticizing Alan - I'm asking for more. There's nothing wrong with anything he said - not at the base level. I just suspect there's something more sincere there. I want to know Alan - not 'Zen-approved Alan'. Not that there's anything wrong with it - but I suspect there's more. I said what I said not out of disrespect, but out of a desire to really know him and his situation.

    Gassho

    Chet

  32. #32

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Please be kind to each other ... not 5 minutes ago I wrote the below to someone writing an article for a magazine about how Buddhist blogs can be uncivilized ...

    That does not mean that you need to pull any punches on making a point ... just do so with care ...

    But, what the heck is wrong with what Alan wrote? I found many of the statements lovely and true for me ... and sometimes when we talk about Zen we will sound like we are talking about Zen. That is just the nature of the Path we walk. 8) As Alan said ...

    I have come to find it useless in the most useful sort of way.
    Gassho, Jundo

    Also, if you get a chance (and have not already) do look around our forum at treeleaf ...

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forum/

    You will find the discussions serious, warm, kind and focused on Zen practice. People are truly gentle with each other, and supportive in practice.

    In the three years we have had the place going, I have had to delete three posts by member (one, an off color joke that just was in really bad taste ... and a fight that started between two members. That out of 25,000! posts on 1700 threads. Also, out of the 400 people who have registered to participate, I have had to ask 3 people not to participate further (two because they were regularly rude to other members ... one, because of concerns that made me demand a doctor's note for health issues). I think it is an amazing record.

    Why are our folks so civil and kind to each other? I think it is the mood we set ... we have only two main rules: Sit Zazen each day and be kind to other members. It works. If you let the Precepts guide one, truly "Right & Gentle Speech" will prevail.

  33. #33
    Senior Member AlanLa's Avatar
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Chet wrote:
    I'm not really criticizing Alan - I'm asking for more. There's nothing wrong with anything he said - not at the base level. I just suspect there's something more sincere there. I want to know Alan - not 'Zen-approved Alan'. Not that there's anything wrong with it - but I suspect there's more. I said what I said not out of disrespect, but out of a desire to really know him and his situation.
    OK, I guess I better say something. I was not offended by your initial response, Chet, but I can understand how some might be. That you were asking for more from me got lost in the style of your asking. How you interpret what I write is up to you, not me. Whether it meets your standard of "enough" or "sincerity" is up to you, not me. However you label it is up to you, not me. I mean this in the nicest most possible way: I don't care That you cared so much to respond to it is your business, not mine. That being said, we are all Bozos on this bus :wink: so I understand that I am a part of the whole. Anyway, I've reread my post a bunch of times now, far more than it deserves, and I stand by/sit with it as is.

    But since you asked so nicely this time that I am able to understand your request, how's this for more: I am bouncing along the Path, sometimes falling down the stairs and other times crawling up the mountain. Once in a while things level out. I have no easy answers for your challenging initial post; therefore, I can give you none :? I just appreciated the opportunity to explore the issue.

  34. #34
    disastermouse
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanLa
    Chet wrote:
    I'm not really criticizing Alan - I'm asking for more. There's nothing wrong with anything he said - not at the base level. I just suspect there's something more sincere there. I want to know Alan - not 'Zen-approved Alan'. Not that there's anything wrong with it - but I suspect there's more. I said what I said not out of disrespect, but out of a desire to really know him and his situation.
    OK, I guess I better say something. I was not offended by your initial response, Chet, but I can understand how some might be. That you were asking for more from me got lost in the style of your asking. How you interpret what I write is up to you, not me. Whether it meets your standard of "enough" or "sincerity" is up to you, not me. However you label it is up to you, not me. I mean this in the nicest most possible way: I don't care That you cared so much to respond to it is your business, not mine. That being said, we are all Bozos on this bus :wink: so I understand that I am a part of the whole. Anyway, I've reread my post a bunch of times now, far more than it deserves, and I stand by/sit with it as is.

    But since you asked so nicely this time that I am able to understand your request, how's this for more: I am bouncing along the Path, sometimes falling down the stairs and other times crawling up the mountain. Once in a while things level out. I have no easy answers for your challenging initial post; therefore, I can give you none :? I just appreciated the opportunity to explore the issue.
    Thanks Alan!

    I guess part of what draws people to zen is the 'old-timey' talk - 'Moons in Dewdrops' and whatnot. The thing is - The moon in the dewdrop might have been a much more readily available sight to people in Dogen's time. There also might have been a lot more people walking up mountain paths on a more daily basis. 'Chop wood, carry water' - unless you're a rural professional camper, I suspect this is not a regular part of your day...

    Reality is immediate. I don't know if there's moon in a dewdrop, but there's fading sunlight casting about through the spaces in the vertical venetian blinds that cover the sliding window from my living room to the patio. I don't know much about chopping wood or carrying water right now, but I do know I have to get showered, dressed, and out the door before KFC closes so I can get some grilled chicken that's compliant with my diet - now that I've shipped out most of my cooking utensils.

    Some people are perhaps more drawn to speaking metaphorically - but there are times when metaphor just glosses over the actual reality of our lives....and there isn't anywhere else that reality can be found except in the immediacy of our lives.

    Sorry I knocked Alan so hard...

    Chet

  35. #35
    disastermouse
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    To clarify,

    "I have come to find it useless in the most useful sort of way." Wow. That sounds zenny profound! But it's BS. The whole point of calling it useless was to remove from the endeavor the ego's 'what's in it for me' orientation to the whole world. It IS useless because, properly approached, it does that. That the ego wants to claim that and put it in the service of something else is exactly an ass-backward orientation.

    I'm not saying that the ego won't try to make use of the uselessness of zazen - but such ego-orientation can begin to seep back into your practice and after awhile you'll wonder why your practice is so unsatisfactory.

    Zen and zazen practice are not problem solutions! Zazen is a problem destroyer! - but not in the way you think. It insistently points out that your problem/solution orientation to EVERYTHING is part of what causes your problems. When your ego appropriates 'uselessness' in the service of something - you're exactly NOT understanding what the old teachers were saying.

    Wanna get rid of your problems? Throw away your solutions!

    IMHO.

    Chet

  36. #36
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    To clarify,

    "I have come to find it useless in the most useful sort of way." Wow. That sounds zenny profound! But it's BS. The whole point of calling it useless was to remove from the endeavor the ego's 'what's in it for me' orientation to the whole world. It IS useless because, properly approached, it does that. That the ego wants to claim that and put it in the service of something else is exactly an ass-backward orientation.

    I'm not saying that the ego won't try to make use of the uselessness of zazen - but such ego-orientation can begin to seep back into your practice and after awhile you'll wonder why your practice is so unsatisfactory.

    Zen and zazen practice are not problem solutions! Zazen is a problem destroyer! - but not in the way you think. It insistently points out that your problem/solution orientation to EVERYTHING is part of what causes your problems. When your ego appropriates 'uselessness' in the service of something - you're exactly NOT understanding what the old teachers were saying.

    Wanna get rid of your problems? Throw away your solutions!

    IMHO.

    Chet
    It's not BS Chet...you have the right to say whatever you want, especially when it comes to how you view zen. But cursing people (or their words) just isn't necessary and such a view is hardly humble.

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    We hear 'Zen is useless' but (almost) no one really believes it.
    It's fine that you don't believe it, but you can't possibly know how most people feel about that. Alan answered your question honestly and while you can disagree, be respectful too....especially if want respect in return.

    Gassho,
    Dosho

  37. #37
    disastermouse
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Dosho,

    'Nice-ness' is not the only admirable quality. Also, I didn't 'curse' Alan. I used a curse word in addressing something he said. My first internal reaction was something akin to 'Uyghur, please!'

    Alan did not respond in any way that I considered 'honest'. It came off as pretentious - as parroted. Sure, it's 'true', it just doesn't really feel like it's his. Jundo could say something similar and it might not seem as 'borrowed' (although, frankly Jundo - sometimes it does - LOL). You may say that I can't possibly know that most people don't understand that 'Zen is useless', except that Alan immediately illustrated that HE doesn't understand it. I'll bet he thinks he does though. What is your understanding of 'Zen is useless'?

    Meanwhile, Dosho - why not add to the conversation instead of just admonishing me for how I'm conducting myself within it? Is your only contribution to be that of an enforcer of civility?

    Let us know you Dosho! What's your understanding?

    As far as getting respect in turn, my preference is for honesty - even if slightly disrespectful. I did not disrespect Alan - I think he's a great guy. I disrespected his response, however, because honestly - if we 'respect' everything, what meaning does respect even have anymore?

    If I post something that makes your BS detector go off - I'm fully endorsing right now that you speak up about it. It would be a disservice not to speak up. And if you think that being a little 'sharp' about it will help drive the point home - so much the better. Just make sure your attacks are on my posts and that they aren't gratuitous and you won't hear any complaining from me.

    Chet

  38. #38
    Senior Member AlanLa's Avatar
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Chet wrote:
    Thanks Alan!

    I guess part of what draws people to zen is the 'old-timey' talk - 'Moons in Dewdrops' and whatnot. The thing is - The moon in the dewdrop might have been a much more readily available sight to people in Dogen's time. There also might have been a lot more people walking up mountain paths on a more daily basis. 'Chop wood, carry water' - unless you're a rural professional camper, I suspect this is not a regular part of your day...

    Reality is immediate. I don't know if there's moon in a dewdrop, but there's fading sunlight casting about through the spaces in the vertical venetian blinds that cover the sliding window from my living room to the patio. I don't know much about chopping wood or carrying water right now, but I do know I have to get showered, dressed, and out the door before KFC closes so I can get some grilled chicken that's compliant with my diet - now that I've shipped out most of my cooking utensils.

    Some people are perhaps more drawn to speaking metaphorically - but there are times when metaphor just glosses over the actual reality of our lives....and there isn't anywhere else that reality can be found except in the immediacy of our lives.
    Oh, this is so much better, Chet. Now, here, we are talking. This post actually makes me refine my metaphorical thinking into something more experiential, Very good, thanks. I don't have problems with doubting the dharma; I have great faith and trust in it. For me it's more about confusion. Sometimes it is too much in my head and not enough in my actions. Stopping thinking about it and more doing of it is my struggle, or finding the right balance of the two (one).

    As for the other post where you think what I say is BS, I think you read a lot into my few words. I did not fully explain all my inner thoughts and beliefs in that first post (which was part of your problem with it) so I think it risky to try and extrapolate what I meant in those few words about uselessness and usefulness. What you wrote seems more about what those words mean to you, not me, and that's fine as long as you make that distinction.

  39. #39
    disastermouse
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanLa
    Chet wrote:
    Thanks Alan!

    I guess part of what draws people to zen is the 'old-timey' talk - 'Moons in Dewdrops' and whatnot. The thing is - The moon in the dewdrop might have been a much more readily available sight to people in Dogen's time. There also might have been a lot more people walking up mountain paths on a more daily basis. 'Chop wood, carry water' - unless you're a rural professional camper, I suspect this is not a regular part of your day...

    Reality is immediate. I don't know if there's moon in a dewdrop, but there's fading sunlight casting about through the spaces in the vertical venetian blinds that cover the sliding window from my living room to the patio. I don't know much about chopping wood or carrying water right now, but I do know I have to get showered, dressed, and out the door before KFC closes so I can get some grilled chicken that's compliant with my diet - now that I've shipped out most of my cooking utensils.

    Some people are perhaps more drawn to speaking metaphorically - but there are times when metaphor just glosses over the actual reality of our lives....and there isn't anywhere else that reality can be found except in the immediacy of our lives.
    Oh, this is so much better, Chet. Now, here, we are talking. This post actually makes me refine my metaphorical thinking into something more experiential, Very good, thanks. I don't have problems with doubting the dharma; I have great faith and trust in it. For me it's more about confusion. Sometimes it is too much in my head and not enough in my actions. Stopping thinking about it and more doing of it is my struggle, or finding the right balance of the two (one).

    As for the other post where you think what I say is BS, I think you read a lot into my few words. I did not fully explain all my inner thoughts and beliefs in that first post (which was part of your problem with it) so I think it risky to try and extrapolate what I meant in those few words about uselessness and usefulness. What you wrote seems more about what those words mean to you, not me, and that's fine as long as you make that distinction.
    It's true - any problems I say I have are on my end - and it's up to you to determine if my response looks true to you...as long as you really go there and look, the dialogue could be called an honest one.

    Chet

  40. #40
    Senior Member Shonin's Avatar
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    I'd say about all your questions apply to me in some measure.

    But, I realized, at the end of the day it's silly to wonder about how or when i'll be enightened or experience kensho. I may engage in flights of fancy from time to time. Wonder what IS Enlightenment? What will I be like if I become Enlightened.

    There is a goal, but i try to forget the goal so I can achieve it to realize i've never been without it and the goal and I are not two things. : )

    I sit because it makes me feel better. I feel in some way improved and bettered. So I just keep on sitting, to find i just feel more at ease in life. My conciousness could undergo many transitions before I ever experience Enlightenment. So why be impatient? I sit to sit ,and remind myself it's perfect and in some inexplicable way i feel rewarded for just sitting.

    Dave

  41. #41

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Quote Originally Posted by padre
    While it wouldn't be the first time I've missed a point completely, I'm not sure that such a conclusion may be derived from my previous post.

    When I sit, I am enlightened, and when I practice taekwondo, I am a nuclear bomb. But neither of those assertions makes any sense if interpreted in certain (perfectly reasonable) ways.
    Actually, your first statement makes PERFECT sense if interpreted reasonably. The second statement is just nonsense. To compare the two statements seems...

    Like something someone would say if he was lost in the dark and fumbling to make sense of it.

    Chet
    So Chet, I have a few questions:
    - What is your interpretation which "makes perfect sense"? What are your standards for "reasonably"?
    - Why do you judge something is "nonsense" because you don't understand someone else's words? Why not say "I don't understand X, can you please elucidate?"
    - The bigger question is why do you think kind speech doesn't apply to you?

    But actually - the reality is that you Chet are here to be insulting to people in the name of the "right" to "call people on their bullshit". Clever of you to pick a buddhist setting to practice this.

    bye bye
    rowan

  42. #42

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Hi All (and a special hello to my favorite Mouse!)

    I have a few secret desires but my desire regarding zen is not secret. I have a very specific goal in doing zazen which is understanding.

    cheers,
    rowan

  43. #43
    disastermouse
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinho
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Quote Originally Posted by padre
    While it wouldn't be the first time I've missed a point completely, I'm not sure that such a conclusion may be derived from my previous post.

    When I sit, I am enlightened, and when I practice taekwondo, I am a nuclear bomb. But neither of those assertions makes any sense if interpreted in certain (perfectly reasonable) ways.
    Actually, your first statement makes PERFECT sense if interpreted reasonably. The second statement is just nonsense. To compare the two statements seems...

    Like something someone would say if he was lost in the dark and fumbling to make sense of it.

    Chet
    Actually Chet, none of what you wrote makes sense.

    - What is your interpretation which "makes perfect sense"? What are your standards for "reasonably"?
    - Why do you judge something is "nonsense" because YOU don't understand someone else's words? Whay not say "I don't understand X, can you please elucidate"
    - The bigger question is why do you think kind speech doesn't apply to you?

    controversally and sanctimoniuosly yours,
    rowan
    Rowan,

    You are arguing semantics. If we have to argue about what each thing means to each of us and that I can have 'my truth' and you can have 'your truth' then we shouldn't even talk.

    You can say 'I am a nuclear bomb' and have it make sense - it's metaphor. The problem is that he linked 'When I sit, I am enlightened' to 'I am a nuclear bomb'. One of these statements is literal, the other metaphorical - and linking them as 'similar' is completely insane. You are not metaphorically enlightened when you sit, and you are not a literal nuclear bomb when you practice a martial art. The most important thing to realize is that when the old zen guys said 'Zen is useless' and 'sitting expresses perfect enlightenment' or 'you are already enlightened' they were not speaking metaphorically.

    I am being kind in my speech. I like you guys! I like Alan and I like Dave and I'm pleased as punch that they've chosen to respond to my thread. I have not said 'You are stupid' - I have said 'What you've said is stupid, and here's why.' If I have said 'you are stupid/disingenuous/etc' by mistake, I apologize.

    Why do you think 'kind speech' means honoring misconceptions or being gentle with a persons' delusions?

    Chet

  44. #44

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    It is not what you said but how you said it.

    If one of my elderly neighbours is carrying her shopping up the hill I can Say," Hello, do you need a hand with that?"
    I can also say," It's stupid you carrying that, give it to me."

    Even though this is a written Sangha, other forms of communication are necessary.

    Perhaps another way is, if you are trying to help someone understand something, they will learn through kindness and patients. Bad teachers are those who cannot communicate with the person they are talking with.

  45. #45
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by Undo
    It is not what you said but how you said it.

    If one of my elderly neighbours is carrying her shopping up the hill I can Say," Hello, do you need a hand with that?"
    I can also say," It's stupid you carrying that, give it to me."

    Even though this is a written Sangha, other forms of communication are necessary.

    Perhaps another way is, if you are trying to help someone understand something, they will learn through kindness and patients. Bad teachers are those who cannot communicate with the person they are talking with.
    Look at Zen history. By your rubric, some of Zen's best teachers were very bad teachers.

    Chet

  46. #46

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Why did you ignore the first example?

    As to the second
    I guess part of what draws people to zen is the 'old-timey' talk - 'Moons in Dewdrops' and whatnot. The thing is - The moon in the dewdrop might have been a much more readily available sight to people in Dogen's time. There also might have been a lot more people walking up mountain paths on a more daily basis. 'Chop wood, carry water' - unless you're a rural professional camper, I suspect this is not a regular part of your day...

  47. #47
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    The spirit of this thread is confrontational - along the lines of Dharma Combat. Only delusion is meant to be abused. The bombastic title should have been an indication..

    Perhaps we should have a section of the forum for this. Threads meant for this could be started there. Threads that become confrontational (in a good way) could be moved there.

    Chet

  48. #48

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Hi chet...

    I'm the one who doubt about Buddha Dharma. I think that the dharma should be like this, and should not be like that.

    You know, because the dharma that I understand is just an intelectual thing, I try to convince my self that what I belief is the truth, the right one.

    Now, you see.... when you start judging one thing as right, another become wrong.
    And when you can't convince your self again, the doubt arise.

    I have a big doubt untill I just drop the dharma that I believe is the right one.
    You know, those dharma is just an intelectual understanding. It never be a reality.

    Zen is not something that we must convince our self as the right way. Zen is about reality that doesn't need to be convinced.

    Zen is just life, right here and now. Whether you doubt or not, whether you believe or not, reality pervades every where.

    And become one with the reality means to drop all your understanding, and see what ever life as it is.

    If some one ask me,
    Do you know whether your choise is right or wrong?

    I choose nothing...

    I just want to drink my tea...


    Gassho, mujo

  49. #49
    Senior Member AlanLa's Avatar
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    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    I wrote: "I have come to find it useless in the most useful sort of way."
    I plead guilty to the zennie. We know what these words mean to Chet, so here is what they mean to me.

    I have great faith in the dharma, great trust. I have no doubts Buddha and all those folks after him, right up to Jundo, got it right. They made the dharma useful in their lives, and now it is my turn. All that wisdom and truth they talk about that I have so much trust and faith in is useless unless I can actualize it in my life as they did in theirs. The Path they show me is useful only when I make use of it, otherwise it is useless. Also, I expect nothing from the dharma, no gain of any kind. In this way it is useless. I do, however, expect myself to make something useful out of the dharma. If any of this is BS or too ego driven or whatever, then it is my struggle, my confusion, my Path, my ego whatever BS. I'll be on my way now.

    PS: Since I have no doubts about zen, it now occurs to me that I should never have responded to this thread. That I did and things got so exciting is therefore partly my responsibility. You are welcome :roll: :wink: :mrgreen: :evil:

  50. #50

    Re: Who among you doubts the Buddha Dharma?

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Getting discouraged is very valuable in our practice! It shows where there are mistaken ideas about what our way is.

    IMHO.

    Better to be discouraged than have kensho. Kensho is so hard to question. Then again, maybe they both push you on the path. But no one SEEKS discouragement and so many seek Kensho. Why is this?

    Chet
    Is it possible (and if so, likely) to have a genuine Buddhist practice without first having many mistaken ideas and discouragements?

    Also, is it possible that I can set myself up for discouragement (while hiding this motive from myself, if you believe in the subconscious mind) in order to experience the insight that can only come from discouragement?. Not self-defeating behavior, but acceptance of the difficulty of a path and walking it anyway, like taking the long route for the delightful scenery.

    In my opinion, the answer to the first question is 'probably not,' and the second is 'I hope so.'

    gassho
    tobiishi

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