Special reading - once born twice born zen (part not 1)

[Jundo]

Hi All,

I thought to post some special reading topics. The theme is "readings that will help in understanding Zen readings". 8)

For years and years, after first starting Zen practice, I would read many "Zen Books" but not quite understand why so many seemed to be saying rather different things (or the same things, but seemingly with very different emphasis). In other words, it too me a long time to realize that "Zen Books" (not to mention "Buddhist Books" in general) come in several flavors, often by different teachers within even the same school. Buddhism has evolved over the centuries, and various teachers do emphasize teachings in ways employing particular perspectives. My attempts to "harmonize" in my mind all these differences, and resolve how everyone was really "saying the same thing somehow" often worked, but sometimes also left me quite confused. It was only when I had some historical background, and understood better where these various approaches were coming (and coming not coming) from, did I see that not all "Zen Books" were of one kind ... not one, not two.

(it is early in the morning ... I hope the above makes sense too!)

My point is, not at all, to say which approach is better than any other (although, of course, I have my own approach and way of presenting the practice too). My intent is merely to help people understand the context of all these different teachings, teachers and teachers' books. All are just slightly varied paths up the same mountain (and, anyway, ultimately "what mountain"?).

Our first reading is from a book (that, unfortunately, goes in and out of print) called "Once Born Twice Born Zen" ... about the two most common "different flavors" of Zen one will most likely encounter in the West today: the "Just Sitting" Shikantaza flavor most usually associated with Soto Sangha such as Treeleaf, and the "Kanhua" Zazen flavor most often associated with Rinzai (or mixed Soto-Rinzai) lineages (PDF).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ukg...ew?usp=sharing

Gassho, Jundo

[galen]

Hi All,

I thought to post some special reading topics. The theme is "readings that will help in understanding Zen readings". 8)

For years and years, after first starting Zen practice, I would read many "Zen Books" but not quite understand why so many seemed to be saying rather different things (or the same things, but seemingly with very different emphasis). In other words, it too me a long time to realize that "Zen Books" (not to mention "Buddhist Books" in general) come in several flavors, often by different teachers within even the same school. Buddhism has evolved over the centuries, and various teachers do emphasize teachings in ways employing particular perspectives. My attempts to "harmonize" in my mind all these differences, and resolve how everyone was really "saying the same thing somehow" often worked, but sometimes also left me quite confused. It was only when I had some historical background, and understood better where these various approaches were coming (and coming not coming) from, did I see that not all "Zen Books" were of one kind ... not one, not two.

(it is early in the morning ... I hope the above makes sense too!)

My point is, not at all, to say which approach is better than any other (although, of course, I have my own approach and way of presenting the practice too). My intent is merely to help people understand the context of all these different teachings, teachers and teachers' books. All are just slightly varied paths up the same mountain (and, anyway, ultimately "what mountain"?).

Our first reading is from a book (that, unfortunately, goes in and out of print) called "Once Born Twice Born Zen" ... about the two most common "different flavors" of Zen one will most likely encounter in the West today: the "Just Sitting" Shikantaza flavor most usually associated with Soto Sangha such as Treeleaf, and the "Kanhua" Zazen flavor most often associated with Rinzai (or mixed Soto-Rinzai) lineages (PDF).

https://sites.google.com/site/jundot...edirects=0&d=1

Gassho, Jundo

Thank you for this down load, Jundo. Much of this I had understood from the 3PZ, and for me, it was not selling brand so to speak, but history, much like this down load, but that was after one reading of it. You seem to feel it sways towards Rinzai, and maybe so, but i did not get that take from it. It was just very interesting and was very glad i have read it and may again.

[Byokan]

Old thread, but I found this to be a good illustration of the differences/similarities (ok, not 2) between Soto & Rinzai, and it will definitely help to put things in context when studying different Zen writings. Not so sure about his characterization of the different types of folks who come to each practice; seems a little oversimplified, but no matter. Thank you for making this available!


Chocolate’s great but I’ll take vanilla usually

Gassho
Lisa

[Ishin]

Thanks for posting this, and everyone's comments. I found this to be a useful article in understanding both Soto and Rinzai,Zen in general and also some good historical context in how Zen has been developed in the West. I really don't understand why the author feels the need to delineate along the thoughts of William James, and I think assumes too much that the reader should understand the reference as significant. Perhaps Western writers on Zen feel some kind of need to present Eastern thought as packaged for the Westerner.
Gassho
C

[Jundo]

Hi,

Let me underline again that the author does paint with a broad brush, that some of the flavor of Rinzai Practice may be of one particular flavor (the "hard push to Kensho" style of that book, Three Pillars of Zen). It depends on the Teacher and Community, and many ways to delicious cook the soup in both the Soto and Rinzai (and hybrid Soto-Rinzai) worlds.

However, generally, the broad brush does help explain why students will pick up "Zen Books" by different Teachers that sometimes seem to be describing rather different approaches to "Zen".

There is a second chapter posted:

Special reading - (more) once born twice born zen
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...twice-born-zen

Here is some other reading I posted in the same way to help newer students understand all the various flavors of "Buddhist Books" that seem to be describing very different things. Different medicine for different patients.

Special reading - eight types of enlightenment
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...-enlightenment

As I like to same: Often very very different, yet precisely the same. Just the same, yet quite different.

Gassho, J

[Daiyo]

Thanks Jundo.

Being a newbie among newbies in the zen world I found its definitions very clear to have an initial understanding of the difference between flavors of zen soup.
I have been reading many books from different teachers (Deshimaru, Kapleau, Suzuki x2, Watts, Aitken) and the soup was my brain.
Now I can focus on the Soto branch at least until I gain some more understanding and my practice grows, which could take a few kalpas.

Gassho

Walter

[Daijo]

Interesting read, and interesting discussion here as well. If I may I'd like to throw my two cents into the conversation. I spent some time practicing under Roshi Paul Genki Kahn, dharma heir of Bernie Glassman and student of Maezumi Roshi. His approach to zen was very holistic (admittedly a bit too holistic for my liking), encouraging yoga, and psycho therapy within his sangha. As a student of that lineage he also places a very strong emphasis on koan study, to practice with any teacher in that lineage you will undoubtedly be required to commit to koan practice. Having said that, I think it should be stressed that when I practiced with his sangha we sat shikantaza. Meaning, when we sat, we just sat. Shikantaza was what was done on the cushion. Koan work was done outside of the zendo. It was of course addressed that if during a sitting period, should the koan arise, let it be, work with it if you must, but don't sit with the koan being your "meditation". I've also worked with another group in this lineage where shikantaza was also taught as the primary practice. Outside of these two sanghas I have no other experience. But my understanding is that this is actually the Maezumi way.

At the end of the day, it proved to be a bit much for me. I wont deny that I did have a couple of powerful experiences with koan practice, but in the end it really wasn't my cup of tea. Add to that the yoga (which I never actually did), and the psycho therapy practices, I just couldn't commit to all of it. Nor did I want to if I'm being honest.

Anyway just my opinions. I am absolutely no authority on the lineage or the practices they employ. I'm just a guy who dabbled and thought I would share my grain of salt worth of knowledge here since it was being discussed.

Gassho,
Daijo

[Myosha]

Hello,

Gosh, can't we invent toys!

Zazen is good for nothing.^^


Gassho
Myosha sat today

[Mitka]

I love how the two different Zen traditions that correspond to two different psychological frameworks of practitioners, the once-born and twice-born. Truly an example of skillful means. If you are a "my life is hopeless I must attain enlightenment" kind of person you can find a Rinzai master to study under. If you are a "life is beautiful I wanna go explore, this Zen stuff sounds cool, maybe it will make my life even more beautiful" kind of person, you find a Soto master to study under. While I am sure that in practice the two categories don't always map onto each other (I can imagine twice-born people practicing under a Soto master master and feeling dissatisfied that things aren't moving very fast, I would say this may have been the case with Yasutani Roshi, which is why his version of Soto looks very Rinzai... the opposite probably also happens), it is very useful for a beginner to know that there are different strands that cater to different psychological tendencies. I, for example, am very relieved to know that once-borns are best nurtured in the Soto sect, as that confirms for me that this is probably the best place for the flowering of my practice. I would say I am a once-born individual, with the occasional, usually brief foray into twice-born psychoticness .

I used to be very twice-born, but meditation softened that until I'm mostly once-born. To me if these categories are to be useful at all, I don't think they should be used with a sense of immutability. Many people are probably a blend. Some people may start out as one and move into another. Ultimately we have to honor who we are at every moment and find our best way forward on the path in each and every moment.

Gassho, Matthew
SAT

[Kevin Benbow]

This is so cool.

I can look at a conversation that started in 2009 and benefit!

So, here is something I have always wondered: How is kensho verified by the teacher in groups that use koan introspection?

I ask because it reminds me a bit of Pentecostal Christianity. People are believed to have received the "Holy Ghost" when they "Speak in tongues." I attended a Pentecostal retreat once where people were placed on the floor and the various workers would encourage them to speak. It was a sight to behold! The yelling, etc.

Once they said something unintelligible they were told that they had received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Afterward everybody talked about how wonderful the experience was.

This reminds me of "kensho."

So, for those of you who know, what is the Roshi looking for in Kensho experiences to declare them valid? How does he or she know?

My background in Christian ministry as well as my work as a psychotherapist make me keenly aware of group dynamics that can create an environment in which a person will do almost anything for the leader's approval.

Gassho

Klb

Sat today

[Jundo]

This reminds me of "kensho."

So, for those of you who know, what is the Roshi looking for in Kensho experiences to declare them valid? How does he or she know?

My background in Christian ministry as well as my work as a psychotherapist make me keenly aware of group dynamics that can create an environment in which a person will do almost anything for the leader's approval.

Hmmm. l would not write this off too quickly either. "Kensho" dropping of the borders of body and mind does happen, and all the world is experienced as all the world and all things flowing in out and as all things and the whole world. Further, when someone has really such an experience, l think it possible to tell by how they seek to express (or not express) or the glimmer in the eye or tone of voice. Further, these can be shallow or deep, really stick to one's bones or just touch one quickly. l feel that l can tell when something is not right, like hearing a violin that l know is off key.

So, l feel that someone watching someone and interacting with them for awhile can know when there has been this kind of opening by what they say, don't say, how they look and how they behave. That is what l pointed to in the recent podcast on the Dokusan room. Also, the dropping and softening of self can happen in less dramatic ways too over time, and just creeps up on someone.

lt is just that we Soto folks don't particularly overvalue or undervalue these experiences, and they are just one stop on the bus trip.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Onka]

Hmmm. l would not write this off too quickly either. "Kensho" dropping of the borders of body and mind does happen, and all the world is experienced as all the world and all things flowing in out and as all things and the whole world. Further, when someone has really such an experience, l think it possible to tell by how they seek to express (or not express) or the glimmer in the eye or tone of voice. Further, these can be shallow or deep, really stick to one's bones or just touch one quickly. l feel that l can tell when something is not right, like hearing a violin that l know is off key.

So, l feel that someone watching someone and interacting with them for awhile can know when there has been this kind of opening by what they say, don't say, how they look and how they behave. That is what l pointed to in the recent podcast on the Dokusan room. Also, the dropping and softening of self can happen in less dramatic ways too over time, and just creeps up on someone.

lt is just that we Soto folks don't particularly overvalue or undervalue these experiences, and they are just one stop on the bus trip.

Gassho, J

STLah

In all honesty I feel like a passenger on this Buddhist journey. I get up and sit every morning and again in all honesty, I don't ever consciously think about enlightenment or specific zen experiences and whether they will or won't happen. I just trust in the process that following the path laid down by much wiser people than me will help me live with life easier. As I write this my spine is a lot more painful than normal so anything that helps me now and now and then now is bound to manifest in better interactions with the world in general. Then again, I'm a zen muppet so what would I know...
Gassho
Anna
stlah

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[Tairin]

Different paths up the mountain. I can see how Koan Introspection would appeal to some more than Shikantaza. It would depend on the personality.


Tairin
Sat today and lah