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Thread: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

  1. #1
    Senior Member AlanLa's Avatar
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    Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Intro: I got in a big disagreement with a colleague yesterday about certain applications of online/distance education. He is steadfastly against it to the point of red-faced, foot-stomping, yelling about its shortcomings and evils. But he also knows almost nothing about it, nor does he have any intention of ever finding anything out about it. To him, it is either face-to-face education or nothing. Anything short of face-to-face is NOT human contact. It's not that I think he's wrong in what he says (I grant him his points), it's that he is so closed minded about any alternative to his traditional ways. To me, this is just blind-faced dogma, and it bugs the crap out of me. As a Buddhist in this online sangha, I "know" that he is wrong: lots of human contact occurs here online, for example. I wanted very much to help him see this, but he is not ready to be helped, and I was not skillful enough to be of much help.

    My Point: I went home and spent the better part of the evening really examining what happened and my role in it. To make a long story shorter, I realized I have a dogma against dogma, my anti-dogma dogma. This makes me the same as him: dogmatic. Thus the argument. Right/wrong, good/bad, East/West, Soto/Rinzai, etc. are relatively easy to recognize when they become dogma, but I think we can add to this list closed mind/open mind, because to cling to any of these ideas to the point of absolute denial of the other leads us to dogma. I think this open-minded dogma happens a lot, to some degree or other, in what is often a sneaky sort of way. So I guess I'm sharing as a warning to look out for what might be your anti-dogma dogma lurking nearby. Or maybe it's just me.

    I hope this made sense.
    Any thoughts?

  2. #2

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    One size need not fit all.

  3. #3

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Any thoughts?
    Have a peach and don't worry about it.

    W

  4. #4
    Senior Member AlanLa's Avatar
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    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Maybe I explained it OK, but after sleeping on it I think I can explain it clearer. His dogma is we must only have face-to-face education. I take this as close-minded and reply with my anti-dogma dogma, which is that he must be open-minded about alternatives. We aren't even talking about the same thing at that point. My "open mind" is not open enough, too dogmatic, to accept his view.

    Any time I get faced with what I view to be closed-mindedness, "You MUST be/think/do, etc. __________," I respond (at least internally, and sometimes externally) with "No, you MUST be open minded about this." I think I'm helping the person, saving the person, as is my vow, so it's hard to just "eat a peach." But maybe that's the way to go.

    I think I am not alone on this. Right?

  5. #5

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    I do not think you are alone in this. IMHO this deals with one very important thing, which is attachement. In this case it is attachement to being non-dogmatic. This may sound paradox as being non-dogmatic should prohibit any unhealthy attachement.

    Dealing with that is really hard. If one is passionate about something one easily tends to become attached to something, which results in a switch of the perspective and what results from that.

  6. #6
    Senior Member AlanLa's Avatar
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    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Yes, exactly. Thank you.

    Also, to "eat a peach" doesn't feel right to me when closed-mindedness is the source of so much intolerance in the world. BUT insisting on open-mindedness is intolerant of closed-mindedness :? . And these designations of "mind" are subjective anyway, as we all know.

  7. #7

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    IMHO the only way to deal with that (on a practical level) is to question your own point of view yourself in each and every discussion. It's like a "workaround" to the dogma. If after that you are still feeling that your statement is right, then let it be.

    And on the other hand, what is true to you does not necessarily have to be true for the person you are talking to. Keeping that in mind can be a useful tool to keep calm in some heated discussions, at least it has been for me (though it does not guarantee anything).

  8. #8

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Also, to "eat a peach" doesn't feel right to me when closed-mindedness is the source of so much intolerance in the world.
    Having taught thousands of students throughout my career, many with views about everything under the Sun, I can honestly say "Eat a peach." is the way to go. But that's me.

    I used to get all worked up about that, but it's no use. What are you going to do? Change his mind? Give him a brain scan? Argue him to death? It's not worth it, and generally ends up nowhere. So, yes, "Have a peach, and enjoy it." Forget about it.

    "Or" you could have it drive you bonkers realizing that there is absolutely nothing you can do to change their mind. Just meet them as they are. Listen to them, smile at them, offer them a peach, and move on.

    Gassho

    Will

  9. #9

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    online/distance education vs. face-to-face

    Since joining this online community, I've thought about this and concluded they are just different. Online is mind to mind thinking without the extra sensory input. Sometimes online is better, sometimes face-to-face is better.

  10. #10

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Personally, I believe that Zen can never be taught by online/distance/virtual learning, and anything short of fact-to-face is --not-- true human contact. I instruct you never to participate in any online Zendo practice, so it is either face-to-face or nothing.

    Anyone who disagrees with me is a fool.

    Gassho, Jundo

    Ps - Of course, what is "distance" "human contact" "face-to-face" "virtual"?

    Now, that is a Koan which only a True Zendo can let one resolve ... while a teacher across the same room from you, or even a millimeter from you, can not even touch it.

    Anyone who thinks there is anyone to disagree is a fool.

  11. #11

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Remember, when we know, we don't know. Most of the time we're not really listening and just putting our own views on top of whatever someone is talking about.

    Thanks for the post Rich and Jundo.

    Will

  12. #12
    Senior Member AlanLa's Avatar
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    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Having taught thousands of students throughout my career, many with views about everything under the Sun, I can honestly say "Eat a peach." is the way to go. But that's me.

    I used to get all worked up about that, but it's no use. What are you going to do? Change his mind? Give him a brain scan? Argue him to death? It's not worth it, and generally ends up nowhere. So, yes, "Have a peach, and enjoy it." Forget about it.

    "Or" you could have it drive you bonkers realizing that there is absolutely nothing you can do to change their mind. Just meet them as they are. Listen to them, smile at them, offer them a peach, and move on.
    I don't disagree, Will. In that moment it clearly would have been the better choice. But it still doesn't feel quite right about, quite balanced. I don't think it's really the best choice. I think there was some middle way there, and I did not do it. I think I know now what it would be, but of course it is too late now, so I move on and leave that behind (or I am in the process of doing so), hopefully better able to handle that or a similar situation the next time, because with this person it will come up again.

    More importantly, I don't want the context to distract from the bigger issue. I am trying to point at a moon that I think it is easy to fall prey to.

  13. #13

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    "Personally, I believe that Zen can never be taught by online/distance/virtual learning, and anything short of fact-to-face is --not-- true human contact. I instruct you never to participate in any online Zendo practice, so it is either face-to-face or nothing."

    My face will appear very soon.

  14. #14

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    (I'm going off topic) what's important is that you have a Sangha, someone to contact with. This reaffirms your practice, and sometimes gives you the incentive to sit, and practice. Sometimes we have a bad moment or a bad day. It's good to get in contact and remember what your practicing.

    Face to face is fine and living in that type of situation is more conducive to realization and Sila. However, if one practices consistently day after day. Moment after moment, and has contact with a community, then it's pretty much the same thing.

    The only difference is, you have to get off your ass pretty much on your own.

    Gassho

    Will

  15. #15

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Will, Well spoken.

  16. #16

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Just to add my dos pesos.

    You know. Some of us don't live in Austin where it seems there are at least 30* (!) groups of various sizes and traditions and histories, etc. etc. I am betting folks that live in Houston, NYC, and SF have similar situations. But, I am also betting that most folks are like me. For a while, in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas, there was only one group in once city about 45 minutes away from me. This group has no teacher (in the traditional sense). The only groups close *with* a teacher are in Austin....5 hours from here. We formed our own group in San Juan, Texas, but we are also w/o a teacher. E/a one of us do our practice, discuss our practice, but deffer to the "big questions" (or small ones :mrgreen: ) to a teacher in a sangha in another city, either via phone or email. This is where "internet" forums/sanghas play an important role.

    Sure face-to-face is great. But. Also the economy of long travel is hampered by the realities of our economy and personal time.


    * Based on Austin Zen Center's links to temples and sanghas in the Austin-area.

  17. #17

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Quote Originally Posted by chicanobudista
    Just to add my dos pesos.

    You know. Some of us don't live in Austin where it seems there are at least 30* (!) groups of various sizes and traditions and histories, etc. etc. I am betting folks that live in Houston, NYC, and SF have similar situations. But, I am also betting that most folks are like me. For a while, in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas, there was only one group in once city about 45 minutes away from me. This group has no teacher (in the traditional sense). The only groups close *with* a teacher are in Austin....5 hours from here. We formed our own group in San Juan, Texas, but we are also w/o a teacher. E/a one of us do our practice, discuss our practice, but deffer to the "big questions" (or small ones :mrgreen: ) to a teacher in a sangha in another city, either via phone or email. This is where "internet" forums/sanghas play an important role.

    Sure face-to-face is great. But. Also the economy of long travel is hampered by the realities of our economy and personal time.


    * Based on Austin Zen Center's links to temples and sanghas in the Austin-area.
    I agree. My situation is similar. The closest group with a teacher is at least two and a half hours away, that means five hours there and back. My wife and I have full-time jobs and we have three small children. It is all but impossible for me to meet with a zen-teacher with any regularity. That means that Treeleaf is the closest thing to a brick-and-mortar zendo that I will encounter without taking a trip. I plan on supplementing my practice by attending a sesshin in the summers, but even then, my options are limited by travel, expenses, etc. Treeleaf is my Zen home as best it can be. I don't enjoy every aspect of an online zen experience, but my choices are limited. Others who are here are in the same boat I imagine. Still others are here to dabble (dilettante's zen), and that is cool too, but it can lead to clashes.
    Over on Odo's blog there are several comments that suggest that Treeleaf is a watered-down experience. I think that for the dilettantes it would be. I, however, consider myself a serious student, as do many others here as well. I'm trying to have to most authentic practice I can have given the confines of family life and location. Does Treeleaf offer everything that a "real" zendo can? No. Does a "real" zendo offer everything that Treeleaf can offer? Again, no. So like Will said, it boils down to the sincerity of one's practice, the taking advantage of the practice opportunities that are available in one's area, and getting one's rear-end to the zafu.
    As to Stephanie's comment over on Brad's blog that Treeleaf is a bunch of sycophants, all I would say is that no one here agrees with everything Jundo says (how could they?), but most respect his role as a teacher and only voice opposition when differences pass a significant threshold (as, once again, people would do in real life at a zendo).
    Having sat at a couple of different zendos, all I can say is that our openness here (warts and all) surpasses anything I've experienced there.

    Peace,
    Bill

  18. #18
    Senior Member AlanLa's Avatar
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    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Personally, I believe that Zen can never be taught by online/distance/virtual learning, and anything short of fact-to-face is --not-- true human contact. I instruct you never to participate in any online Zendo practice, so it is either face-to-face or nothing.

    Anyone who disagrees with me is a fool.

    Gassho, Jundo

    Ps - Of course, what is "distance" "human contact" "face-to-face" "virtual"?

    Now, that is a Koan which only a True Zendo can let one resolve ... while a teacher across the same room from you, or even a millimeter from you, can not even touch it.

    Anyone who thinks there is anyone to disagree is a fool.
    I think this qualifies as dog-mu :mrgreen:

  19. #19

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Quote Originally Posted by Eika

    As to Stephanie's comment over on Brad's blog that Treeleaf is a bunch of sycophants, all I would say is that no one here agrees with everything Jundo says (how could they?), but most respect his role as a teacher and only voice opposition when differences pass a significant threshold (as, once again, people would do in real life at a zendo).
    This will be probably be my next to last comment on Steffie here, but......I do wish some folks like the old zen story left the young beautiful woman by the safe side of the river not carry her for miles. Look. Stop carrying Jundo! :mrgreen:

  20. #20

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    I was going to go into a long post reg. how this is issue is really a recast of a debate that has been part of religion since humanity has discussed religion and day-to-day life, "portable" religion vs. "fixed place" religion.....but...there is a lecture by Lewis Lancaster taped by UCTV that gives a better light to this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX2f6QHkU-I[/video]]Burke Lecture: Buddhism in a Global Age of Technology

    A distinguished scholar of Buddhism, Lewis Lancaster founded the Electronic Cultural Atlas Initiative to use the latest computer technology to map the spread of various strands of Buddhism from the distant past to the present. Series: "Burke Lectureship on Religion & Society" [6/2008] [Humanities] [Show ID]
    You don't have to watch the whole lecture since the key part is at the beginning.

  21. #21
    Treeleaf Unsui rculver's Avatar
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    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    I have no experience with a bricks and mortar zendo. All I know is that If it were not for Treeleaf's existence, I would have probably completely given up on Zen. As Will said, you have to make the effort; It's all what you put into it. Is Treeleaf perfect? Yes, It is perfectly what it is.("warts and all") I've learned more here in a year and a half, than I had in 10 years of reading "Buddha" books. It has been exactly what I needed, when I needed it.

    Ron

  22. #22

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Quote Originally Posted by rculver
    I have no experience with a bricks and mortar zendo. All I know is that If it were not for Treeleaf's existence, I would have probably completely given up on Zen. As Will said, you have to make the effort; It's all what you put into it. Is Treeleaf perfect? Yes, It is perfectly what it is.("warts and all") I've learned more here in a year and a half, than I had in 10 years of reading "Buddha" books. It has been exactly what I needed, when I needed it.

    Ron
    Thank you, Ron.

    Although I always preach that we do this just to do this ... I never pass up hearing some encouraging words too. It is always good to hear from folks that they are getting some aid from all this (in fact, someone usually writes me to say so almost daily now, including many folks who never set foot in this forum yet are sitting with all of us).

    And though we accept the "warts and all" ... I am always trying to get those treated. :wink:

    Gassho, J

  23. #23

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Quote Originally Posted by rculver
    I have no experience with a bricks and mortar zendo. All I know is that If it were not for Treeleaf's existence, I would have probably completely given up on Zen. As Will said, you have to make the effort; It's all what you put into it. Is Treeleaf perfect? Yes, It is perfectly what it is.("warts and all") I've learned more here in a year and a half, than I had in 10 years of reading "Buddha" books. It has been exactly what I needed, when I needed it.

    Ron
    Big ditto!

    Ill make a trip or too but for daily practice and support treeleaf is it and im very glad.

    Gassho Shohei

  24. #24

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    And we can always try to do better.

    Even in our way of dropping all idea of "better" ... one can always try to do better.

    So, I will keep trying ... with everyone's help ... to make Treeleaf better and better.

    This place is just all of us, not two and not three.

  25. #25

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    I thoroughly enjoy this thread. I'm one to want to see all sides and more of something, and try every new food, or variety of things that comes along, and often don't understand why others don't vary one micron from their path. Off-topic (or on a sharp tangent at any rate) -- Eat a Peach -- reminds me of my favorite poem, The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock -- thanks for the thread, and the reminder, and the smiles brought by both.

    g, ann

  26. #26

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock
    ...In the room the women come and go
    Talking of Michelangelo.


    Gassho

  27. #27
    disastermouse
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    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Quote Originally Posted by Eika
    As to Stephanie's comment over on Brad's blog that Treeleaf is a bunch of sycophants, all I would say is that no one here agrees with everything Jundo says (how could they?), but most respect his role as a teacher and only voice opposition when differences pass a significant threshold (as, once again, people would do in real life at a zendo).
    Having sat at a couple of different zendos, all I can say is that our openness here (warts and all) surpasses anything I've experienced there.

    Peace,
    Bill
    Stephanie should know better! I know she still pops in to lurk, and if the Adyashanti thread served any purpose, it should be to show that we are not sycophants. Disagreements are talked out here and Jundo actually responds pretty even-handedly. I wasn't 'poo-poo'd' for disagreeing with 'our esteemed teacher'. I wasn't censored. I wasn't threatened. I felt no pressure to conform and the conversation actually helped me to see Jundo's side of things as I hoped I helped him see my side of things.

    Jundo is not a classically 'charismatic' teacher, and I suspect it's a conscious decision. Think about it: we know very few details of Jundo's 'awakening' experiences, or his history, or any of the compelling components of his personal story that might build him up as a charismatic cartoon.

    Chet

  28. #28

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Sycophant Zen
    Elephant Zen
    Her Zen.
    His Zen.

    Blah, blah, blah

    W

  29. #29

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Quote Originally Posted by Eika
    As to Stephanie's comment over on Brad's blog that Treeleaf is a bunch of sycophants, all I would say is that no one here agrees with everything Jundo says (how could they?), but most respect his role as a teacher and only voice opposition when differences pass a significant threshold (as, once again, people would do in real life at a zendo).
    Having sat at a couple of different zendos, all I can say is that our openness here (warts and all) surpasses anything I've experienced there.

    Peace,
    Bill
    Stephanie should know better! I know she still pops in to lurk, and if the Adyashanti thread served any purpose, it should be to show that we are not sycophants. Disagreements are talked out here and Jundo actually responds pretty even-handedly. I wasn't 'poo-poo'd' for disagreeing with 'our esteemed teacher'. I wasn't censored. I wasn't threatened. I felt no pressure to conform and the conversation actually helped me to see Jundo's side of things as I hoped I helped him see my side of things.

    Jundo is not a classically 'charismatic' teacher, and I suspect it's a conscious decision. Think about it: we know very few details of Jundo's 'awakening' experiences, or his history, or any of the compelling components of his personal story that might build him up as a charismatic cartoon.

    Chet
    Gee, Chet ... Where do I send your check? I have never been so happy to be told that I lack "charisma" :?

    Actually, if there is anything you would like to know about anything regarding me ... ask away. I did post my biography a couple of times ... although it does not touch on many subjects that you seem to be interested in. There should be no secrets in a group like this about the person purporting to be the 'bus driver'.

    viewtopic.php?p=2545#p2545

    I have spoken about most of these topics in the past though.

    Gassho, J

  30. #30

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Jundo is not a classically 'charismatic' teacher, and I suspect it's a conscious decision. Think about it: we know very few details of Jundo's 'awakening' experiences, or his history, or any of the compelling components of his personal story that might build him up as a charismatic cartoon.
    OT....which should make for a new koan

    "Why did Jundo leave to the East?"



    :mrgreen:

  31. #31
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Quote Originally Posted by Eika
    As to Stephanie's comment over on Brad's blog that Treeleaf is a bunch of sycophants, all I would say is that no one here agrees with everything Jundo says (how could they?), but most respect his role as a teacher and only voice opposition when differences pass a significant threshold (as, once again, people would do in real life at a zendo).
    Having sat at a couple of different zendos, all I can say is that our openness here (warts and all) surpasses anything I've experienced there.

    Peace,
    Bill
    Stephanie should know better! I know she still pops in to lurk, and if the Adyashanti thread served any purpose, it should be to show that we are not sycophants. Disagreements are talked out here and Jundo actually responds pretty even-handedly. I wasn't 'poo-poo'd' for disagreeing with 'our esteemed teacher'. I wasn't censored. I wasn't threatened. I felt no pressure to conform and the conversation actually helped me to see Jundo's side of things as I hoped I helped him see my side of things.

    Jundo is not a classically 'charismatic' teacher, and I suspect it's a conscious decision. Think about it: we know very few details of Jundo's 'awakening' experiences, or his history, or any of the compelling components of his personal story that might build him up as a charismatic cartoon.

    Chet
    Gee, Chet ... Where do I send your check? I have never been so happy to be told that I lack "charisma" :?

    Actually, if there is anything you would like to know about anything regarding me ... ask away. I did post my biography a couple of times ... although it does not touch on many subjects that you seem to be interested in. There should be no secrets in a group like this about the person purporting to be the 'bus driver'.

    viewtopic.php?p=2545#p2545

    I have spoken about most of these topics in the past though.

    Gassho, J
    What I'm saying is that there isn't much 'cult of personality' going on here. Brad's got his 'punk rock dharma' thing going on. Other teachers have the intimacy of their personal story.

    I wasn't pointing out any flaws here with that. I have no doubt that your biography and personal story are readily available - my point was, they are not a center-point to the way you teach.

    It's more a stylistic difference. It's hard to identify with you as 'my' teacher because there's not much story to cling to. If someone grew up 'punk rock' or rebellious or identifies with the punk ethos - not only would he or she likely be drawn to Brad, the chances of a 'sycophantic' defense relationship would be much higher, because 'when you attack my guru, you attack me' (in that I identify with my teacher). It's the same thing with many other teachers with more ostentatious biographies or ethos-related styles, any number of which may be sub-consciously attractive to a student completely separate from any real usefulness of his or her teachings. Like anything, such sub-conscious attraction can be used for the student's benefit or to their detriment.

    I don't feel any compelling need to defend you when you act like a dick. It's just, 'Huh, Jundo was kind of a dick there.' Similarly, when you are compassionate or resonating with something I see - I don't feel any 'pride' at the wisdom of 'my teacher'. It's more like, 'Huh, Jundo's sorta on to something there. Maybe I should look at that.' (You had more influence on me in the Adyashanti thread than you probably realize, for instance).

    Maybe that's just me - because I don't really feel drawn to 'gurus'.

    Chet

  32. #32

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Here's something Jundo once said to me:

    Will: Why did Bodhidharma sit facing a wall for nine years.

    Jundo: Yes!

  33. #33

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    I see what your saying Chet, and yes it could be detrimental to practice, but watcha gonna do? One person thinks this about you, another person that. You tell them please don't think this, and they end up thinking your even greater and full of humility for having said that. Someone else says "Your a lying sack of shit."

    Anything that comes out of a teachers mouth could be seen as this way or that, but what they're pointing to has nothing to do with who is saying it.

    It would be in the teacher and students best interest to address these issues when they come up, and they usually are in various ways.

    If you see the Buddha, kill the Buddha.

    As Suzuki was walking out of the building to meet his ride to Los Altos, a woman, at the top of the steps, called out to the driver, "You be careful now; we don't want to lose our treasure!"

    Suzuki turned, halfway down the steps, made a loud SMACK! with his hands, and called out, "No more!" He threw his head back and laughed and continued to laugh as the car drove off.
    There's an old warning against confusing the great wonderful Absolute Truth with the teacher which goes, "Don't confuse the finger pointing to the moon with the moon." It's as if a fellow came along who pointed to the moon and we just stared at this gentle, kind Oriental man in his brown robe and went, "Wow, far out!" and then he fell over dead and we cried and said words of praise about him and walked off talking about him and never noticed the moon. So here we are all walking around in the moonlight, mumbling and grumbling and bumping into each other. We are a silly lot.

    Another thing we do when we go on babbling about how great our teacher's understanding was, is we imply that we are qualified to appraise their understanding. This seems arrogant. When I first met Katagiri and watched him fiddling with his pencil and wondered if an enlightened person would do that and he told me that a teacher was beyond the students judgement, he wasn't telling me that he and Suzuki were beyond karma or making mistakes. He didn't mean that they could have a burglary ring going that I should ignore because their every act was perfect buddha dharma. To me, what he was saying was, "Don't look at me, look at the moon."

    We do not know what their understanding was. There is no reason to say they were enlightened, whatever that means, or that they were anything other than our spiritual friends or good friends.

    What Suzuki and Katagiri learned and knew, I do not know. I learned from them to have confidence in zazen while sitting, standing and walking, as it is traditionally said. I am thinking and commenting on these people because that is the subject now, but in my life today, I am just as encouraged by family members and my mutually irritating fellow students and by living peers who have all sorts of ways and practices as by the memory of the Japanese teachers whom I have known and loved.

    http://www.cuke.com/ty&ok/suzuki%20mentions.html
    And so on.


    Gassho _/_

  34. #34

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Jundo, your brief biography viewtopic.php?p=2545#p2545 was interesting. I wondered what the florida connection was. Imagine a 'charismatic bus driver' - only just drive. Thanks for the bio.

    PS Where did you get the Jundo and does it have any special meaning?

  35. #35

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich

    PS Where did you get the Jundo and does it have any special meaning?
    "Chigen Jundo" (Wisdom Source Pure Way) is the Dharma Name that I received from Nishijima Roshi at my Shukke Tokudo (Leaving Home) Ordination. Dharma Names, by the way, are always a bit "tongue in cheek", or are an aspiration for what we hope to be (not what we necessarily are), and my names fit the bill.

    As all things in Zen Practice, a name is nothing and is everything, just a name and the only name.

    The ordination can be seen here (translated by Google from the French language).

    http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... n&ie=UTF-8

    We were going to do it at the Tokei-In, the root temple of our Lineage ...

    http://www.treeleaf.org/tokei-in.html

    but we got rained out as I remember. Anyway, because Nishijima Roshi later decided that we needed to cross all the T's and dot all the I's with Japanese Soto-shu, Brad and I and several other of Nishijima's Heirs did it again at Tokei-In a bit later. (I need to scan my photo, but here is Brad's in the meantime from the same ceremony)



    Here by the way is a very rare photo (in fact, the only photo) of part of the Dharma Transmission Ceremony a few years later, as Nishijima Roshi bestows the Blood Lineage. Nishijima Roshi is not much for ceremonies, fly whisks, hats and paraphenalia and such, but does make an exception for Jukai, Tokudo and the like.



    Gassho, Jundo

  36. #36

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    What I want to see are Jundo's Bar Mitzvah photos. :mrgreen:

  37. #37

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Very nice pictures, Nishijima's hat is cool. Now I've got go find the wisdom source in a pure way.

  38. #38

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    I wasn't pointing out any flaws here with that. I have no doubt that your biography and personal story are readily available - my point was, they are not a center-point to the way you teach.

    It's more a stylistic difference.
    Hi.

    So what youre saying is that "the teacher" has no effect on his "teachings"?
    But then it does?

    Mtfbwy
    Tb

  39. #39
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugen
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    I wasn't pointing out any flaws here with that. I have no doubt that your biography and personal story are readily available - my point was, they are not a center-point to the way you teach.

    It's more a stylistic difference.
    Hi.

    So what youre saying is that "the teacher" has no effect on his "teachings"?
    But then it does?

    Mtfbwy
    Tb
    Huh? I didn't say anything of the sort. I'm saying that, since Jundo's biography is not prominent, it is not part of the draw to this sangha - at least not on my part.

    Chet

  40. #40

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Huh? I didn't say anything of the sort. I'm saying that, since Jundo's biography is not prominent, it is not part of the draw to this sangha - at least not on my part.
    I think something go lost in translation. Anywho. I didn't know anything about Jundo when I visited TL for the first time. What got me here was an ad in Tricycle (IIRC) which piqued my interest (and my need to find a Zen teacher who I could ask questions via internet). After my first visit, the open discussion has kept me here.

  41. #41

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugen
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse
    I wasn't pointing out any flaws here with that. I have no doubt that your biography and personal story are readily available - my point was, they are not a center-point to the way you teach.

    It's more a stylistic difference.
    Hi.

    So what youre saying is that "the teacher" has no effect on his "teachings"?
    But then it does?

    Mtfbwy
    Tb
    Huh? I didn't say anything of the sort. I'm saying that, since Jundo's biography is not prominent, it is not part of the draw to this sangha - at least not on my part.

    Chet
    Hi.

    K.
    I agree.

    Mtfbwy
    Tb

  42. #42

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    I'm new here, but I think I understand what Chet is saying regarding Jundo's teaching style. I've been reading through a lot of threads to catch up, and I have noticed that Jundo joins conversations and teaches along the way ... but he doesn't make it all about him. There's not a lot of "I did this ..." or "I say that ..." He's not constantly tossing his own zen stories out there and making himself a hero in his own narrative, as far as I can tell.

    Jundo's personality does come through, and it's a part of how he teaches (in my limited experience thus far), but it seems a sort of gentle guiding personality, with a lot of back-and-forth, as opposed to a more blustery "I'm in charge here" kind of thing, if I'm making any sense. A lot of teaching goes on in these conversations, and sometimes "we" are doing the teaching, not just Jundo. I like it.

    In any case, I'm very glad to have found this zendo. Thank you, Jundo, and thanks everyone else.

  43. #43

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Quote Originally Posted by ZenYen
    I'm new here, but I think I understand what Chet is saying regarding Jundo's teaching style. I've been reading through a lot of threads to catch up, and I have noticed that Jundo joins conversations and teaches along the way ... but he doesn't make it all about him. There's not a lot of "I did this ..." or "I say that ..." He's not constantly tossing his own zen stories out there and making himself a hero in his own narrative, as far as I can tell.

    Jundo's personality does come through, and it's a part of how he teaches (in my limited experience thus far), but it seems a sort of gentle guiding personality, with a lot of back-and-forth, as opposed to a more blustery "I'm in charge here" kind of thing, if I'm making any sense. A lot of teaching goes on in these conversations, and sometimes "we" are doing the teaching, not just Jundo. I like it.

    In any case, I'm very glad to have found this zendo. Thank you, Jundo, and thanks everyone else.
    Okay, you are on my "good" list, Zenyen. I will not ban you today. Keep up the comments like that, and we will get along fine. 8)

  44. #44

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    I'll do my best to stay off the "bad" list, Jundo, but I hear everything changes ... so you never know.

    Thanks!

  45. #45

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Hi.

    I may be bad, but I feel good.
    -Evil sheila, Army of darkness (evil dead III)

    :lol:

    Mtfbwy
    Tb

  46. #46

    Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugen
    Hi.

    I may be bad, but I feel good.
    -Evil sheila, Army of darkness (evil dead III)

    :lol:

    Mtfbwy
    Tb
    :lol:

    Gassho, Shohei

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