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Thread: Soto and Rinzai

  1. #1

    Soto and Rinzai

    Hi every body....

    We know that there is two school in Zen, Rinzai and Soto.

    Rinzai with Koan, and Soto with Shikantaza...

    I'm just Curious, which one Bodhidharma really brought from India....

    or maybe he brought nothing...

    In my addition, some who see Zen as Rinzai or Soto, don't really see what Zen is...
    In Zen, there is no Rinzai or Soto...

    Gassho, Mujo

  2. #2
    Myoshin
    Guest

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Quote Originally Posted by Shui_Di
    In my addition, some who see Zen as Rinzai or Soto, don't really see what Zen is...
    In Zen, there is no Rinzai or Soto...

    Perfectly said, at least in my opinion.

    Gassho,
    Kyle

  3. #3
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    And yet, there is also this and that. As Jundo always says, it comes in many flavors. But it is definitely ici cream (that's mine).
    It is true that Dogen received the transmission in the Rinzai lineage. And Dogen did not want distinctions to be made. It was either Buddhist or non Buddhist. Usually, rinzai monks end up just doing Shikantaza.
    Nevertheless...In my very limited opinion, saying that there is no difference or saying there is difference are both not complete. Don't you think?
    It depends how you look at it. Can you taste the difference between the water of this spring and that spring. I think we all can. And yet we all know it is water.

    In my addition, some who see Zen as Rinzai or Soto, don't really see what Zen is...

    And clearly, clearly, I don't have a clue what Zen is. By the way, do we need to see what Zen is or give up the idea that anything is missing or extra? Do we need to pick up the right Dharma or just practice the backward step?
    Clearly, clearly, Genjokoan is for people like me an excellent remedy

    gassho


    Taigu

  4. #4

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Hi Shui,

    I see you are dropping in again and leaving a wonderful Koan!

    Actually, both "Soto" and "Rinzai" love Koans. We approach Koans in the same way, with the "non-thinking" mind, to pierce through the words and behind the words.

    There are some differences in how we handle Zazen ... "Just Sitting" Shikantaza and "Kan'na Zazen" (Zazen with the mind focused on a Koan or phrase from a Koan) ... Soto tends to drop away all thoughts, Koans or not, and see the action of sitting as the ultimate Koan realized ...

    ... and sometimes a difference in how we see the objective ... the "no objective objective" of Shikantaza and the "objective all to realize there is no objective" of Koan Zazen (which also has more of an emphasis on "Kensho" breakthoughs, large and small and in many flavors ... although Soto folks have those too, kinda by accident and naturally, small and large and in many flavors :P ...)

    Anyway, the differences are about how we hold the racket, otherwise same game of "nothing to achieve, and ultimately no net" tennis. Some people may be better suited in their body-mind to holding the racket one way, other people to holding it another way.

    Sameness, but small difference. Different but the same.

    Gassho, J

  5. #5

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Hellos to those posting here!
    I've had the opportunity to sit with groups of both Rinzai and Soto lineage as well as White Plum Asangha (Maezumi lineage), which is a mixture of the two plus a third .
    When I first started sitting I knew nothing about anything. I highly recommend it as a way to start. Each of us with our own very unique lives and our own circumstances and settings will not be dissuaded from what we come to realize is the only thing we can do: this practice. We are lucky to live in a period of time where finding a teacher, finding a place to practice even if not easy, is not impossible. We are lucky!
    Sit with rinzai, sit with soto, sure!

    Are you your mother's child? or your father's child? Are you a descendent of your mother's ancestors or your father's ancestors?
    My first teacher, Soto; but my practice was beautifully nurtured for 7 years sitting with a dharma heir of Maezumi Roshi, and it was after a trip to attend 7 day sesshin at Sogen-ji (Rinzai, Shodo Harada Roshi), that I KNEW I needed to find the footsteps of my first teacher, Matsuoka Roshi.
    So I only know everything so far has been very helpful for continuing the practice.

    In gratitude for all teachers past, present and future of all lineages!

  6. #6

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    It's my understanding that outside of Japan just about every lineage is Linji/rinzai and the ascedency of Caodong/Soto in Japan as a seperate and equally powerful sect is based mainly on certain historical factors. There's not much of a distinction in China; Master Sheng Yen traced his zen through both Linji and Caodong and wasn't unique in this regard. There's an excellent chance that Bodhidharma was a myth, but if the teachings attributed to him resonate with you, I don't see that they're any less valid. I think some of the official story of Buddhism is mythical also (how likely is it that Gautama just plain didn't know people got old, sick, and died before he left Kosala palace?), but the basic method is (sometimes literally) a lifesaver.

  7. #7

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Quote Originally Posted by Shui_Di
    Hi every body....



    I'm just Curious, which one Bodhidharma really brought from India....

    or maybe he brought nothing...

    In my addition, some who see Zen as Rinzai or Soto, don't really see what Zen is...
    In Zen, there is no Rinzai or Soto...

    Gassho, Mujo
    Gassho Mujo,

    As to your first comment, this brings up the fallacy of "authenticity by attribution".

    Coincidentally, the bookclub book mentions "there is no northern or southern school" which I have thought meant that there is only the great Reality (this is me putting it Very badly).

    For a long time I was very intellectually upset at the idea of two different kinds of zen practice - koan zazen and shikantaza. I thought this just cannot be! So I then had the realization that it is all koan practice, and that the koan of shikantaza is "This Moment" (only without the words, of course). But of course there is the other side, that zazen is always shikantaza - being absolutely in this space, this moment and if your self is filled with a particular question (MU, one hand clapping, what am I, or even just "??????" etc) then that is part of your zazen because it is right here, right now. Of course there are also the differences between koan zazen and shikantaza, as is also mentioned in the bookclub book on the Sandokai - everything is both completely one and completely separate. Again coincidentally, in the book "the Zen Koan" by sasaki(?) and Miura(?), the system of koans are separated into three types - first the koans dealing with the oneness of all phenomena, then with the difference of all dharmas, then with experiencing/understanding the simultaneity of oneness and separateness.

    I think that Rinzai and Soto are different techniques. Although I can only speak from reading, all the books I have read talk about the same zen, the same understanding. But maybe that is because I read the medieval chinese, korean and Japanese writers

    As a very nice soto teacher said to me when I asked about koan study, he said he thought his teacher would say "where is there not koan?" And when I asked "what is shikantaza?" he said "it is the roaring stream which flows through everything". (which I thought was truly superb)

    thank you for your time,
    gassho,
    rowan

  8. #8

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    To stretch Jundo's allegory:

    Gautama figured out how to play tennis.
    Bodhidharma showed the Chinese people how to play.

    We just need to keep practicing the swings.

    Cheers,

    Paul

  9. #9

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Thanks Jundo and Taigu and also to others folks...

    Thank you for your replies, and I'm sorry for replying lately. I was really busy this week...

    Hmm.... I agree that there are soto's method and rinzai's method....

    but there is no Soto zen or Rinzai Zen...

    but ... some times there is also no Zen.

    Gassho, Mujo

  10. #10

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Just to add a quick question.

    Didn't Soto already exist in China before Dogen?

  11. #11

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Quote Originally Posted by Chogetsu

    Didn't Soto already exist in China before Dogen?
    Yeah, Dogen "just" brought it to Japan.

  12. #12

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Hi.

    ask yourself, what is "before" and "after".

    And "what" "soto" did Dogen "bring"?

    Mtfbwy
    Tb

  13. #13

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Well, by "after", I mean, was chronologically preceded by another event. By "before", I mean chronologically precedes another event. The "what" is the Soto method. Soto was a different method that did not trace itself to the teachings of Huang Po and Linji, and which did not exist in Japan. Dogen went and studied in Japan, learned this method, and brought it back.

    Sorry if that's too clear and straightforward and not "zen" enough.

  14. #14

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Hi Mr. Rebel,

    Oh, you were clear enough.

    Fugen just performs an incredibly valuable service around here. You will get used to him. He throws a most welcome pie in all our faces when any of us start to take things too seriously, or when we start to see things in only a few narrow ways. I really want to say "thank you" for that.

    If you say the cat has whiskers, he will tell you it is a dog. And it is.

    Gassho, Jundo who takes it all too seriously sometimes

    PS- I still wish you would pick a name, though just a name, that is less a handle. Every time I read one of your posts, I want to listen to fiddle music! :wink:

  15. #15

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Every time I read one of your posts, I want to listen to fiddle music!
    LOL

  16. #16

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Hi Mr. Rebel,

    Oh, you were clear enough.

    Fugen just performs an incredibly valuable service around here. You will get used to him. He throws a most welcome pie in all our faces when any of us start to take things too seriously, or when we start to see things in only a few narrow ways. I really want to say "thank you" for that.

    If you say the cat has whiskers, he will tell you it is a dog. And it is.
    Hi.

    Does that make him an "good troll"? :roll:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

    Mtfbwy
    Tb

  17. #17

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Hi Fugen,

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugen
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Hi Mr. Rebel,

    Oh, you were clear enough.

    Fugen just performs an incredibly valuable service around here. You will get used to him. He throws a most welcome pie in all our faces when any of us start to take things too seriously, or when we start to see things in only a few narrow ways. I really want to say "thank you" for that.

    If you say the cat has whiskers, he will tell you it is a dog. And it is.
    Hi.

    Does that make him an "good troll"? :roll:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

    Mtfbwy
    Tb
    Ask yourself: what is good? What is a troll? What is a good troll vs. a bad troll?

    Any way you put it, Fugen is definitely not a troll in my book. :!:

    Gassho
    Bansho

  18. #18

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Quote Originally Posted by Bansho
    Hi Fugen,

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugen
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Hi Mr. Rebel,

    Oh, you were clear enough.

    Fugen just performs an incredibly valuable service around here. You will get used to him. He throws a most welcome pie in all our faces when any of us start to take things too seriously, or when we start to see things in only a few narrow ways. I really want to say "thank you" for that.

    If you say the cat has whiskers, he will tell you it is a dog. And it is.
    Hi.

    Does that make him an "good troll"? :roll:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

    Mtfbwy
    Tb
    Ask yourself: what is good? What is a troll? What is a good troll vs. a bad troll?

    Any way you put it, Fugen is definitely not a troll in my book. :!:

    Gassho
    Bansho
    Hi.

    Hey, i've been "fugenised" twice in one day...
    Actually i had a friend of mine laughingly explain what an "internettroll" was for me.
    And he's still smiling about it every time we meet.

    Mtfbwy
    Tb

  19. #19

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Well, nothing wrong with fiddle music but fair enough. Call me Shel or Shelby then?

    And nothing against Fugen, but I have to admit an allergy to ezs (enigmatic zen speak). I know language is limited but it works a lot better when we don't deliberately obfuscate things by being deliberately cryptic. One reason I find a lot of American zen communities impossible to practice in is the insistence on out-zenning each other instead of having meaningful and useful convserations.

  20. #20
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountaintop Rebel
    Well, nothing wrong with fiddle music but fair enough. Call me Shel or Shelby then?

    And nothing against Fugen, but I have to admit an allergy to ezs (enigmatic zen speak). I know language is limited but it works a lot better when we don't deliberately obfuscate things by being deliberately cryptic. One reason I find a lot of American zen communities impossible to practice in is the insistence on out-zenning each other instead of having meaningful and useful convserations.
    "This guy's more Zen than me!"

  21. #21

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountaintop Rebel
    One reason I find a lot of American zen communities impossible to practice in is the insistence on out-zenning each other instead of having meaningful and useful convserations.


    "Are you trying to out-zen me, ese?!"
    :mrgreen:

  22. #22

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountaintop Rebel
    Well, nothing wrong with fiddle music but fair enough. Call me Shel or Shelby then?

    And nothing against Fugen, but I have to admit an allergy to ezs (enigmatic zen speak). I know language is limited but it works a lot better when we don't deliberately obfuscate things by being deliberately cryptic. One reason I find a lot of American zen communities impossible to practice in is the insistence on out-zenning each other instead of having meaningful and useful convserations.
    Hi.

    Yes, words are very useful.
    And i don't think anyone is trying to outzen anyone here, just helping along the way...
    At least that goes for me...

    Mtfbwy
    Tb

  23. #23

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountaintop Rebel
    Well, nothing wrong with fiddle music but fair enough. Call me Shel or Shelby then?

    And nothing against Fugen, but I have to admit an allergy to ezs (enigmatic zen speak). I know language is limited but it works a lot better when we don't deliberately obfuscate things by being deliberately cryptic. One reason I find a lot of American zen communities impossible to practice in is the insistence on out-zenning each other instead of having meaningful and useful convserations.

    Hi,

    Could you please give me an example of enigmatic zen speak. Perhaps I can translate for you?

    cheers,
    rowan
    who is SOOOOOOOOOO happy she got her antibiotics :mrgreen:

  24. #24

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountaintop Rebel
    One reason I find a lot of American zen communities impossible to practice in is the insistence on out-zenning each other instead of having meaningful and useful convserations.
    In my sangha, since most are "new" practitioners, "out zenning" someone usually get's you " :evil: " looks. If there is a question, you get a direct short answer :wink: I think you see this more often in forums. When we had a retreat, a visiting zen teacher spoke to the point.

  25. #25

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Dm
    Yeah, pretty much.

    Chicano Budista
    "Don't you know I'm loco?" :wink: And yeah, it's more of an online thing but does crop up in the rl.

    Fugen
    Sorry if I had that pegged wrong.

    Jinho
    EZS tends to take three main forms in my experience; bringing up an old zen anecdote (usually out of context) that we've all heard a million times to derail an actual conversation (e.g., "shitstick!"), throwing a bunch of "what's really real" rhetoric out (which is what I assumed was what Fugen was doing), or performing some non-sequitur action to show how wildly, spontaneously zen they are. I usually know WHAT it means, I just find it generally sort of pretentious and unhelpful. If I'm truly perplexed at some point, though, I'll give you a hollar.

  26. #26

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Quote Originally Posted by chicanobudista
    One reason I find a lot of American zen communities impossible to practice in is the insistence on out-zenning each other instead of having meaningful and useful convserations.
    The cock crows at midnight, the rabbit leaps at dawn. Clouds part, and the mountains first become visible.

    (Like that)? :wink:

  27. #27

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    The cock crows at midnight, the rabbit leaps at dawn. Clouds part, and the mountains first become visible.

    (Like that)? :wink:
    Just to clarify, I didn't write that, it was Mountaintop Rebel .

    But...let me give you my sangha look... " :evil: "


    :mrgreen:

  28. #28

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountaintop Rebel
    Jinho
    EZS tends to take three main forms in my experience; bringing up an old zen anecdote (usually out of context) that we've all heard a million times to derail an actual conversation (e.g., "shitstick!"), throwing a bunch of "what's really real" rhetoric out (which is what I assumed was what Fugen was doing), or performing some non-sequitur action to show how wildly, spontaneously zen they are. I usually know WHAT it means, I just find it generally sort of pretentious and unhelpful. If I'm truly perplexed at some point, though, I'll give you a hollar.
    I often mention other people's words (e.g. "putting a head on top of another head") because they are the best expression of something I want to express and are very meaningful to me. Of course, certain elements of medieval Chan stories are not comprehensible now as we don't have the same cultural associations (e.g. lion and serpent as in "lion before and serpent behind", or Chao Cho (Joshu) putting his shoes on his head when he hear's about Nanchuan killing the cat). I do find Fugen's "ask yourself..."'s very irritating and I am trying to figure our why !? His remark is certainly a central point in all zen/chan philosophy, so I don't know why I get agitated (some thing from my past or something).

    thank you for reading this ramble.....
    rowan
    who might not be as better as she thinks she is

  29. #29

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    One reason I find a lot of American zen communities impossible to practice in is the insistence on out-zenning each other
    Yeeeah. But come on. There's nothing wrong with a little fun. As long as it doesn't go too far and that's all anybody ever talks about for hours on end. We can't be questing our whole life.

    btw even Dogen thought Zen speak was a important part of practice. However, when you really look at it the words are just the finger, and I think some people mistake them for the moon. What I think is a part of practice, is to just express yourself as yourself. Sometimes that's Zenny. Sometimes that's logical. Sometimes an *ss (according to others), and sometimes compassionate and non verbal. Just you.

    Gassho

  30. #30

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Jundo
    Yeah, pretty much. My rule of thumb is, can you picture David Carradine saying it on Kung Fu? If so, probably better to let the moment pass in silence.

    Jinho
    Yes, exactly, context is everything. I have no problem with people who quote the old masters when appropriate, or who say things that can be difficult to grasp. But we should try to understand why they said what they said. When people do the whole iconoclastic zen bit inspired by say, Linji, they often forget that he was dealing with a very formalized, quasi-Confucian Buddhist establishment, and was trying to shake it out of its stupor. We've never had such a construct here, so when people try to act crazy and disregard structure like Linji, they miss the bigger picture (in my humble opinion).

    Will
    Zen speak has kind of become like stoner humor to me; I don't have a moral objection to it, I've just heard too much to enjoy it anymore. Dogen definitely says some very difficult and challenging things; but I don't believe he was ever deliberately making something more obscure than it actually was. Zen speak often has that effect (as does academic jargon, but that's a whole 'nother story).

  31. #31

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    My pet peeve in zen forums is this type of discussion:

    Poster A - Hi guys. New to meditation. I am glad this forum exists. Just a quick question. In my zendo, we have Kuan Yin statues. Is she some type of Zen goddess? Sorry if it sounds uniformed.

    Poster B - The moon shines in the water. Where does the water shine?

    P. A - Yeaaaaah...well... ok...so..but what about my question.

    P. C - Dogen said something like this self does not exist, no in or out.

    P. A - OK, but my question was the statue.

    P. B - You are a goodess.

    P. A. - Ok. No. I am dude. So. On Statue. ?

    P. C. - "Dude" what is this that you call "dude"? Buddha said there is no "dude".

    Mod - Ok. I am locking this thread.

  32. #32

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Poster A - Hi guys. New to meditation. I am glad this forum exists. Just a quick question. In my zendo, we have Kuan Yin statues. Is she some type of Zen goddess? Sorry if it sounds uniformed.

    Poster B - The moon shines in the water. Where does the water shine?

    P. A - Yeaaaaah...well... ok...so..but what about my question.

    P. C - Dogen said something like this self does not exist, no in or out.

    P. A - OK, but my question was the statue.

    P. B - You are a goodess.

    P. A. - Ok. No. I am dude. So. On Statue. ?

    P. C. - "Dude" what is this that you call "dude"? Buddha said there is no "dude".

    Mod - Ok. I am locking this thread.
    LOL

    Gassho

  33. #33

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountaintop Rebel
    Fugen
    Sorry if I had that pegged wrong.
    Hi.

    No worries, all part of the practice.

    Mtfbwy
    Tb

  34. #34

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    'Tis all just the finger pointing at the moon ...
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .








  35. #35

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Its 4:50 am, I'm still on my first cup of coffee... literally still waking up... and I see that ^... too early to laugh, but when I just start giggling for no reason today, and my wife asks what's up, what am I gonna say? :lol: (If I hadn't already dropped off all urges to label people ( :wink: ) I would say Jundo is a 'wiley instigator')

    gassho

  36. #36

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    That's my version of "Master Gutei's One Finger" (Wu-Men Kuan - Case 03) ...

    Whatever he was asked about Zen, Master Gutei simply stuck up one finger.

  37. #37
    Treeleaf Unsui rculver's Avatar
    Join Date
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    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    :lol:

  38. #38

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    I hope I did not offend. But I am Brad Warner's Dharma Brother, after all. :roll:

  39. #39

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    that was beautiful

  40. #40

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    The cock crows at midnight, the rabbit leaps at dawn. Clouds part, and the mountains first become visible.

    (Like that)? :wink:
    Um, so what is incomprehensible about the above? Really, I don't get the problem.

    gassho,
    rowan

  41. #41

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountaintop Rebel
    Jundo
    Yeah, pretty much. My rule of thumb is, can you picture David Carradine saying it on Kung Fu? If so, probably better to let the moment pass in silence.

    Jinho
    Yes, exactly, context is everything. I have no problem with people who quote the old masters when appropriate, or who say things that can be difficult to grasp. But we should try to understand why they said what they said. When people do the whole iconoclastic zen bit inspired by say, Linji, they often forget that he was dealing with a very formalized, quasi-Confucian Buddhist establishment, and was trying to shake it out of its stupor. We've never had such a construct here, so when people try to act crazy and disregard structure like Linji, they miss the bigger picture (in my humble opinion).

    Will
    Zen speak has kind of become like stoner humor to me; I don't have a moral objection to it, I've just heard too much to enjoy it anymore. Dogen definitely says some very difficult and challenging things; but I don't believe he was ever deliberately making something more obscure than it actually was. Zen speak often has that effect (as does academic jargon, but that's a whole 'nother story).
    Hi again,

    I don't think Linji was trying to shake anybody out of anything, he (and all the other medieval zen/chan writers I have read) said very clear things. Their writings are very direct (though in some cases the cultural references are particular to that time and place, comparable to me calling someone "a cow"). But I think that most often on this forum people are being playful (except maybe for Fugen's eternal "ask yourself....")

    However I just got the joke, what with you being named Mountaintop.

    thanks,
    rowan

  42. #42

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinho
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    The cock crows at midnight, the rabbit leaps at dawn. Clouds part, and the mountains first become visible.

    (Like that)? :wink:
    Um, so what is incomprehensible about the above? Really, I don't get the problem.

    gassho,
    rowan
    Unless it's metaphorical, it's one of the most straight forward and sensible phrases I've heard.

    Gassho

  43. #43

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    interesting turn on this thread.

    Jundos finger pointing at the moon was priceless as i scrolled down :lol:

    On out zenning and stuff

    Maybe the out-zenning or zennier than thou that you see in "American" ( can we just say Modern Zen...its every wheres and if you check members list you will see that this Sangha is truly a global gathering) is often really your own creation. I get what was said about out zenning. I offer this though: if i took every post as an attempt to 1 up me then EVERY post would be so, and really, do i need to compare my self to anyone else here? It doesnt usuall help, so i learn(er well I am learning) to just let that go.

    A good idea in this medium is to read ALL posts as and attempt to offer sincere, kind and helpful answers or ideas. If a post or poster gets your goat perhaps you should talk with them directly. open up. Seriously we (me included) all have days where shit rubs us the wrong way. Im so sick of hearing about mu some days that passing a dairy farm just makes want to punch a cow for Muuuuu -ing at me!! (lol of course im being an idiot here but you get the point, I hope) That cow was just being a helpful cow at that moment. I created its mockery of me and my "level" of zen**

    We, as a group will have our differences etc as any group gathering will have but for the sake of practice and benefit of all we need to set our petty complaints aside.
    NOW to make an obscure quote from the Shobogenzo, and thus solidifying my place as Johny come lately, newb with a copy of the Shobogenzo -

    The members of the Hall should harmonize like milk and water, and should wholeheartedly promote each others practice of the truth. Now we are for the present as guests and hosts, but in future we will forever be Buddhist patriarchs. So now that each of us is meeting what is hard to meet, and is practicing what is hard to practice, we must not lose our sincerity. This sincerity is called the body-and-mind of the Buddhist patriarchs; it inevitably becomes Buddha and becomes a patriarch. We have already left our home towns [in our cases here at Treeleaf i would say our usual place of thinking and being??]; we rely on clouds and rely on waters. The benevolence of the members of this Sangha, in promoting each others health and in promoting each others practice, surpasses even that of a father and mother. A father and mother are only parents for the short span between life and death, but the members of this Sangha will be friends in the Buddha's truth forever.
    Not to come off as preachy here either... Id better go sit!

    Gassho, Shohei

    **FWIW i work with koans off the cushion throughout the day and just before bed. Im very new reading "The Gateless Barrier Zen comments on the Mumonkan" and my point is i get frustrated with it sometimes and hearing some one talk about the wonderous Mu! makes me growl under my breath. not their problem... its mine and i remember to look at it under the right lens and i see my view is skewed by my own clouds.

  44. #44

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Hi Shohei,

    Beautifully said - thank you.

    Gassho
    Bansho

  45. #45

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    This thread, like several others recently, has gone from something simple to something almost accidentally profound, simply by being built by all the diverse personalities in our sangha... I appreciate all your thoughts and thanks for contributing!

    This concludes Tobiah's Sesame Street Interlude

    Gassho

  46. #46

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    So which one did Bodhidharma bring?

    :lol:

    Cheers,

    Paul

  47. #47

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Quote Originally Posted by prg5001
    So which one did Bodhidharma bring?
    Tea and Kung Fu. And Daruma dolls.



    :!:

  48. #48

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    some games are fun to play

    a game is not so much fun when you do not know how it is played

    enigmatic zen speech (EZS) is an e z game to learn to play, or play along with

    I think somewhere way back when in a recorded talk of Alan Watts' I stumbled what may be the basic rule described thusly: when someone makes a metaphorical statement, the response is a concrete here and now statement, and the response to a concrete statement is a metaphor.
    Perhaps there are better ways to describe the alternating statements, but I can't think very eloquently right now so

    So, someone saying something which does not pertain to Right Now What Is In Front Of You, but rather in Broad Generalized Sweeping Statement, With Or Without Poetic Imagery, will get a RNWIIFOY response and a RNWIIFOY statement will elicit a BGSSWOWPI response.

    Try this out for yourself. It's a little like the game non-sequiturs from Rosencranz and Guildenstern Are Dead by Tom Stoppard

    When you think of these monks all living together with no electronic devices for amusement, and there was only so much dusting and sweeping to be done in a place with little furniture....one finds ways to entertain oneself and ones companions.

  49. #49

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    And the best thing about playing the game this way is that any monk can just walk away, and the others will just assume he is going to sit!

  50. #50

    Re: Soto and Rinzai

    Quote Originally Posted by Keishin
    I think somewhere way back when in a recorded talk of Alan Watts' I stumbled what may be the basic rule described thusly: when someone makes a metaphorical statement, the response is a concrete here and now statement, and the response to a concrete statement is a metaphor.
    Perhaps there are better ways to describe the alternating statements, but I can't think very eloquently right now so

    So, someone saying something which does not pertain to Right Now What Is In Front Of You, but rather in Broad Generalized Sweeping Statement, With Or Without Poetic Imagery, will get a RNWIIFOY response and a RNWIIFOY statement will elicit a BGSSWOWPI response.
    Thanks, Keishin. Very nice take on "zenspeak." Reminds me a bit of the way Nishijima deconstructs Dogen's text by looking for 4-step pattern.


    Gassho,
    Bill

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